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Old 12-22-2006, 08:47 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxstate
Oh for god's sake, it's not the friggin gunner accuracy anyone is worried about. It's the combination Jump 3, Absorb 3 , flamer and Jetpack.

Someone really needs to get ingame with me and I'll show them the real problem.
Um Max where you been? I have been playing for quite a while now, why did you not try to join my server or Meatgrinder (I was first at Meatgrinder but then it crashed so I headed to my server along with someone else)? Well I am still playing =P
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Old 12-22-2006, 08:56 AM   #82
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I've been getting quite tired and frustrated from playing OJP with the current imbalances, surely with the thought that they could've been circumvented in the back of my head. I've been playing something else to keep my mind off things, practicing webdesign too, want to get a headstart on PHP.

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Old 12-22-2006, 11:43 AM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxstate
I've been getting quite tired and frustrated from playing OJP with the current imbalances, surely with the thought that they could've been circumvented in the back of my head. I've been playing something else to keep my mind off things, practicing webdesign too, want to get a headstart on PHP.
Doh... sorry about, I see you joined but I fell asleep it would seem. I play clean though, but I can understand your frustrations. I just stick to the Jedi/Sith side, minus that one time I was trying to get bacta to work, but no luck on that =P I haven't experienced much of the imbalances myself because I have mostly been fighting bots or just saberists, and if they did try some messed up combos they were usually too below my skill that it did not matter :P Well hopefully I'll see you around sometime Max.
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Old 12-22-2006, 08:26 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackBaldy
Doh... sorry about, I see you joined but I fell asleep it would seem. I play clean though, but I can understand your frustrations. I just stick to the Jedi/Sith side, minus that one time I was trying to get bacta to work, but no luck on that =P I haven't experienced much of the imbalances myself because I have mostly been fighting bots or just saberists, and if they did try some messed up combos they were usually too below my skill that it did not matter :P Well hopefully I'll see you around sometime Max.
Hehe, just wait till you fight a gunner whos been racking up points for a while Their so overpwered you'll be lucky to get half as many kills against a gunner as skilled as you are with jedi.


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Old 12-23-2006, 10:47 AM   #85
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No one can match my skill! Just kidding... :P Hopefully this is fixed (certain combinations being overpowered), and I might be getting a new router which might end up making my server more stable when I have it up
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Old 12-26-2006, 09:26 AM   #86
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I just thought of something: why don't we just remove the current method of selecting skills, and just implement 3 classes - Jedi, Sith, Mercenary and Force Gunner, similar to how you can only use Light or Dark side in vanilla JKA MP. That way, we can have both pure Jedi, pure Merc or cross class, and we can actually input selective skills for each of the 3 classes without having to worry about how complicated it is to code cross-class penalties etc

As a template here's what I suggest

Jedi:
- All neutral force powers
- All light side powers
- All dark side powers (cost more)
- Saber Attack
- Saber Defense
- Saber Throw

Sith:
- same as above, except light side powers cost more

Merc:
- pure merc skills, no saber or force skills

Force Gunner:
- No flamethrower
- no force jump
- merc powers available will cost 2x more
- No saber skills available
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Old 12-26-2006, 09:28 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UDM
I just thought of something: why don't we just remove the current method of selecting skills, and just implement 3 classes - Jedi, Sith, Mercenary and Force Gunner, similar to how you can only use Light or Dark side in vanilla JKA MP. That way, we can have both pure Jedi, pure Merc or cross class, and we can actually input selective skills for each of the 3 classes without having to worry about how complicated it is to code cross-class penalties etc

As a template here's what I suggest

Jedi:
- All neutral force powers
- All light side powers
- All dark side powers (cost more)
- Saber Attack
- Saber Defense
- Saber Throw

Sith:
- same as above, except light side powers cost more

Merc:
- pure merc skills, no saber or force skills

Force Gunner:
- No flamethrower
- no force jump
- merc powers available will cost 2x more
- No saber skills available
You know I already suggested 3 systems like this..

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Old 12-26-2006, 01:55 PM   #88
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The real question is this, did you put it into a nice secksy template? :P I like the idea, sounds good and makes it easier for balance.
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Old 12-26-2006, 02:31 PM   #89
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A system like that would work for balancing. No doubt there.

The problem, as I see it, isn't that noone believes a fixed-class system wouldn't be balanced. It's easy to see that it would be. But I think what RazorAce and the other devs are trying to accomplish is to get the system working so that players aren't restricted to classes, but the overall system is balanced anyway. I think that they're trying to make it so that gunners can combine rockets, flamethrower, and lightning 3... yet the overall system is still balanced. I believe it can work.

Obviously, this kind of dynamic balancing is much harder to do...but I don't think they should give up on it just yet. It's actually pretty close, IMO.

1. Guns need to be tweaked to do more DP damage vs Jedi (so you don't have to spam shots).

2. Mishap needs to matter for gunners. I think mishap penalties should be added for all of the guns, with the amount of penalty depending on the gun. I'll go ahead and present some specific ideas for this based on my own thoughts and what has been discussed previously:

Running should double the mishap cost for using guns. Crouching should halve it. Firing from midair should increase it by 3x or maybe 4x.
The mishap bar would decrease at a fairly quick rate, so that it can go from full to 0 in 7-8 seconds. The regen rate would be halved if the player is running or midair.
If the mishap bar is too high (85% or so?) the gunner's accuracy suffers. Also, the gunner would be vulnerable to force powers even if they are usually protected, just like Jedi at high mishap.
Different guns would have different base mishap costs. Basically, the bigger the gun, the higher the mishap cost it incurs. Pistols would have a tiny mishap cost, while the rocket launcher and the flamethrower would have a huge mishap cost.

Does anyone else see where I'm trying to go with this?
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Old 12-26-2006, 02:37 PM   #90
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I think I would still have to go with UDM's idea because not only does it seem easier to balance, it also makes more sense logically speaking (To me anyways). Just my 2 cents.
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Old 12-26-2006, 04:49 PM   #91
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Exclamation

Look up some of my ideas and tell me what you think

The only problem here is that Ace doesn't want to cut jedi any slack. He's against gunners staying gunners and Jedi staying Jedi as far as I can see.

The misconception that Jedi are still the dominant cla... build* is still pretty much the general consensus here untill someone shows the guys in charge what's really up, therefore I would strongly advise Sushi's ideas be taken into consideration.

I'm very pro when it comes to gunners actually having to worry about more than just ammo stats so they get more responsible in terms of all the powers they get. Lets face it, gunners only use Jetfuel and ammo, but, were it the fact that a gunner would use a force power, he would not be held back or damaged by it because the gunner does not rely on his Force power pool.

Were a gunner to use lightning 3 for example, they could fry their opponent to as much as their FP fatigue threshold would permit them too, and would then switch over to a gun, explosive or the flamethrower. Escaping in this situation is easy since they can use a jetpack and fly wherever they want during the whole round.

DP usage is self-explanatory; none.

Mishap then? Again nada! They don't have to worry about mishap either since they are not Jedi and are not focused as much as Jedi.

Why then , knowing this, do we not act like any sane developing team and use these facts against the gunners somehow? Why do we not clip the wings of gunners in terms of build freedom when they already have so much freedom?

Is full customization the reason, eh? I have no problem with that, as long as the pure classes - for the ones among us that don't know what that is: it means that the build stays true to one side and chooses only guns and gadgets or only Force powers and saber skills - actually get some kind of compensation for not using the opposite's side weaponry.

If this isn't the reason, then why don't we take a page out of Ace's book and follow the "movierealism" path... anyone else notice how this is immediately flushed down the toilet? I don't think I even have to start about movierealism, it is non-existant.

Okay. So afterwards, "movierealism" wasn't the main goal anymore, it changed to "realism". Yeah, just realism. What is realism? Are we supposed to imagine Jedi and Sith being real, and the StarWars universe being alive but with less science fiction?

Okay, lets assume so:

Jedi and Sith have been trained since childhood to use the Force and manipulate it at will. They've gone through rigorous physical and mental challenges, have spent years mastering a lightsaber style, and leaving their academy they are well able to destroy or create, manipulate in general the matter and minds around them.
They also wield a weapon that can cut through almost any type of matter with ease, and wield it with such grace and power that no enemy could stand and oppose them.

To top it off, they can actually look shallowly into the future.


versus

Mercenaries for hire, from the streets and other places that have gotten crash courses into handling blasters and the likes.

..I don't have to explain further why "realism" isn't really a main goal either anymore.

So what remains?

You tell me. I and numerous others have been posting about this since before Vruki lost his internets and noone even bothered to think about it before all these changes were implemented.
Gunners and hybrids are overpowered, and no simple damage nerf will widen the gap that was present between Jedi and Gunners.

--


However, I will explain how I think we should go about fixing this.

Firstly, the Jedi versus Jedi system - A.K.A the saber system - is excellent. With a few adjustments I think it will even top future Wii saber systems and then some.

Although such systems do not exist for anti gunner combat. There are no clear guidelines on how much damage something does, how you are supposed to attack, how powers react towards gunners or how you are supposed to use your saber against a gunner correctly.

(I'll begin from distant attacks and slowly work my way closer)

Firstly, the deflecting system needs a tune-up. We need to get DP and mishap more deeply and intuitively involved into deflecting blaster bolts back gunners.
I suggest this:

Saber Defense 0:
You are unable to deflect blaster bolts and dodge them instead.

Saber defense 1:
Ability to deflect shots in undetermined directions for as long as you have DP and as long as your mishap bar isn't full.
Once you run out of DP you dodge shots as normal and most likely die.
If your mishap bar goes fills up completely you also lose the ability to deflect and start making mistakes.

Your mishap will fill up by one line every 5 shots you deflect with your lightsaber.

Every third shot will be deflected untill you don't find some way to rest and recover your mishap.

Reflecting shots at the crosshair is only possible without mishap, so 5 shots and that's it.

(note that recovering mishap from blaster shots can be done while running, walking, standing still and meditating. Mishap will also go down faster in that order. Running should make your mishap go down by one every 4 seconds. Walking every 3, standing still every 2 and meditating every second, regardless of Saber Defense level.)


Saber defense 2:
DP as normal.

Mishap fills up by 1 with every 7 shots.
When your mishap bar fills up you take extra damage to dp damage by blaster bolts but do not lose the ability to deflect.

As long as your mishap is under half, you can reflect shots back at the crosshair.

Saber defense 3:
DP as normal.
Mishap goes up by one every 8 shots you take.

You can reflect shots back at the crosshair as long as you have under half mishap.

Reaching full mishap means more damage from shots.

Reflecting can only done while walking or standing still.



=========
----======
=========

That's for deflecting. On to short ranges:

When you attack someone and they shoot you, your attack is canceled out.
But in the next half second you can attack again, this needs to change.

If you slash and get shot, you have to return to ready stance before you can slash again. That is my feedback when it comes to this.

This will enable gunners to 'juggle' jedi infront of them, force their saber away from their bodies by forcing the jedi to deflect before they can slash again.

========
--======
========

Manual deflect is a favourite move of mine, but it's underused.
Why? Because it doesn't work. Hate to break it to you.

Ace and I have been brainstorming about what we could do with it to make it usable and working again. Personally I would suggest this:

The Jedi is required to have saber defense 3.
The Jedi must stand still.

Now, to manual deflect you will be required to power attack (attack fake) and hit the incoming bolt with it. This will take one mishap bar but it will send the bolt flying back to a random enemy (if only one enemy is present, it will go towards him).

The manual deflect will fail if the Jedi moves or jumps.

If anyone has any other ideas on how this should work, post them freely.


========
-=======
========

I solemnly believe that there is no or little balance present for gunner vs Jedi combat currently, but I also believe that if we combine our thoughts and work out some ideas that we can solve the imbalance easily.

My ideas are an example of how it should look, and naturally because they are my ideas I would love to see them ingame, but they're just ideas and suggestions for now, so please post your opinions, suggestions, comments and most of all, your own ideas.

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Old 12-26-2006, 05:11 PM   #92
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I understand that you want to add in reflect/deflect and manual deflect, but I got kind of confused on where you stand with unlimited freedom for hybrid builds. I personally don't like it much (Unlimited freedom on hybrid builds that is), and I always preferred movie realism over many things. Right now I wouldn't mind if it got harder for a Jedi/Sith to kill a gunner up close. If your idea on gunner vs Jedi close combat accomplishes that, then I am all for it.
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Old 12-26-2006, 05:13 PM   #93
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I was referencing to the 'unlimited freedom of builds' or 'free customization' as a kind of jab in the direction of the people that made the system into what it is now.

And I hope these ideas will bring some change there too.

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Old 12-26-2006, 05:14 PM   #94
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So you don't want unlimited freedom? And adding layers of depth to gunners as was done to the sabering system is always a good thing.
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Old 12-26-2006, 05:24 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackBaldy
So you don't want unlimited freedom? And adding layers of depth to gunners as was done to the sabering system is always a good thing.
If unlimited freedom is what we have now.. no, I don't want it.

And there was no 'depth' added to gunning.
The only depth they have now is the flamer which is an instant "I-win" button for them.

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Old 12-26-2006, 06:12 PM   #96
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Don't your ideas somewhat add depth to gunners? That's what I originally meant.
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Old 12-26-2006, 07:17 PM   #97
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Calm down Max. This is, after all, a work in progress.

I like your idea that deflecting shots incurs some amount of mishap penalty.

I don't like the idea of using a power attack/attack fake to do a manual reflect: that's even harder than the current system (using the tap-fakes). I've used it successfully, as far as I'm concerned it DOES work.

I do agree that it would be nice if the manual deflect was automatically targeted, instead of having to aim carefully yourself.
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Old 12-26-2006, 07:46 PM   #98
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Manual deflect is supposed to deflect towards a random enemy in range right now in the current version and the 3 versions before it too.

That's why I said it doesn't work.

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Old 12-27-2006, 12:13 AM   #99
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Let's make this simple. I'm against a class system.

If that's all you guys want, you need to go play MB2 or FM3. I didn't put all that effort into a skills based system, which you guys wanted, just to change it again because you guys can't decide what you want.

I don't think you understand. Major development is basically OVER. I'm working at my new job and I simply don't have time to work on OJP anymore.

I'm not going to be competely overhauling systems anymore. I gave plenty of warning about this and if you guys squandered the time with stuff you didn't want, it's not my fault.


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Old 12-27-2006, 02:38 AM   #100
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I'm not sure I ever suggested a system which as much freedom as it is now. Well I don't think I would have agreed to it, but it was probably while I was gone. Having all that freedom really leaves no room for movie realism. And of course, unbalanced hybrid classes. And I would play MB2, but this saber system is badass If you are going to leave in a system where this is unlimited freedom like it is now I suggest you think hard on how to balance these hybrid classes because some combinations are blatantly overpowered and just unrealistic too in a Star Wars sense. If there is no balance toward hybrid classes then some things will just fall apart (Or balance in general).

Quick question though, is there anyway to disable the left side of the skill screen? Like you can disable forcepowers and weapons by g_forcepowerdisable or g_weapondisable, what about those extra skills in the skill screen?
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Old 12-27-2006, 07:19 AM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackBaldy
I'm not sure I ever suggested a system which as much freedom as it is now. Well I don't think I would have agreed to it, but it was probably while I was gone. Having all that freedom really leaves no room for movie realism. And of course, unbalanced hybrid classes. And I would play MB2, but this saber system is badass If you are going to leave in a system where this is unlimited freedom like it is now I suggest you think hard on how to balance these hybrid classes because some combinations are blatantly overpowered and just unrealistic too in a Star Wars sense. If there is no balance toward hybrid classes then some things will just fall apart (Or balance in general).

Quick question though, is there anyway to disable the left side of the skill screen? Like you can disable forcepowers and weapons by g_forcepowerdisable or g_weapondisable, what about those extra skills in the skill screen?
@ Ace
I figured as much, well good luck then. I'll see what I can salvage through locking.

Jack, you were away for quite a while.

Your second question can be answered by looking through one of the text readmes, I think it might be the one on the admin system.

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Old 12-27-2006, 09:40 AM   #102
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Guys, we do not need classes. As long as we can make pure jedi balanced against others, which I'm sure we can and maybe pure gunner balanced and every good combo has a force combo has a decent defense, they just arent needed. We made the choice for freedom because we knew that we didn't have time to do classes and make them balanced, as many of, or anywhere near as well done as othermods before razor retired, and this has not really been done before, so we when for uniqueness. If we still do work after razors official retirement, then yes maybe we'll have classes or psuedo classes. All we really have left before razors retire ment is bug fixing, balancing, a few tweaks to things, and definitely more forcepowers and weapons so people dont wonder why we cut so many normal options whe we didnt really need to.


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Old 12-27-2006, 09:57 AM   #103
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I may have gotten too caught up with trying to solve the problem of balancing that I've forgotten what we have right now. Sorry

On that note, I'm going to leave it to the community to think of ideas to balance. I'm not that good at this, and besides I'm also more interested in GUI-modding
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Old 12-27-2006, 10:13 AM   #104
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@Max: I looked through every document and there is nothing in them to disable jet packs or any of the gunner skills which are not weapons (Weapons can be disabled by g_weapondisable like I said before, but there is no number or cvar that is listed in any of the documents that can remove the gunner skills such as flamethrower.). Anyone even know if this is possible...?
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Old 12-27-2006, 04:21 PM   #105
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I never added a cvar to disable the merc skills. Personally, I think the disable cvars screw up the balancing of skills. I suppose we could add one, what do you want to use it for?


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Old 12-27-2006, 05:24 PM   #106
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Ah I see. Well I wanted to use it right now because some of the combinations are blatantly unbalanced. That and it would give us the choice to have a Jedi/Sith only server.
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Old 12-27-2006, 07:46 PM   #107
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Quote:
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Ah I see. Well I wanted to use it right now because some of the combinations are blatantly unbalanced. That and it would give us the choice to have a Jedi/Sith only server.
Ask JAsk how he did it, the EUro and Templar have had it's weapons disabled lots. Don't know how - I thought I did - so you'll have to axe Jask.

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Old 12-27-2006, 07:59 PM   #108
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*Grabs axe* I was only able to disable the actual weapons with g_weapondisable, but from the sound of it, Jask disabled the skills instead. I'll have to go axe him
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Old 12-27-2006, 08:01 PM   #109
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Cool Guy

Quote:
Originally Posted by JackBaldy
*Grabs axe* I was only able to disable the actual weapons with g_weapondisable, but from the sound of it, Jask disabled the skills instead. I'll have to go axe him
Axe... yeah

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Old 12-27-2006, 09:49 PM   #110
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I would strongly suggest class based gameplay. It is easier to balance, and more fun as well as being easier for RP nuts to RP with.
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Old 12-27-2006, 11:04 PM   #111
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*waits for Razor Ace to throw an axe at ChosenOne*
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Old 12-28-2006, 12:02 AM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by {TheChosenOne}
I would strongly suggest class based gameplay. It is easier to balance, and more fun as well as being easier for RP nuts to RP with.
Won't happen while Razor's the leader, less freedom, less unique, we could only get 3 or maybe 4 classes before razor got sick of coding and balancing, no time, and a great way for new players to say "wow, these classes seem kinda rushed and there's not many of them. Let's go play MB2!" Unless another master coder/modeler/permission getter who's not steppng back or just plain retiring wants to work on seige and balancing such things, it won't happen anytime soon. *coughs*Darthgravyareyoustillwithus?!*coughs*

Quote:
*waits for Razor Ace to throw an axe at ChosenOne*
*also waits for Razor Ace to throw an axe at ChosenOne*


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Old 01-12-2007, 11:00 AM   #113
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OJP is very fun to play.
There are 3 or 4 things that need to be taken care of before the real release though:

-Deflecting
We need to get it a better system.

-Gunner vs Jedi balance
Less shots needed to take down Jedi, more gun usefulness, and sabers returning to ready before you can slash.

-More forcepowers and weapons
We need mindtrick back for example, sense for autopushing and sniper dodging

-General bug fixing
Juyo and Makashi's fast anims, I'll look into those if you guys can look into multistrikes.
I can live with yawing but not with 5 attacks per second.

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