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Old 09-29-2007, 05:15 PM   #41
Jediphile
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Originally Posted by Rev7
Do we truly know if that was the "True Sith" way???Maybe that was something that was started by the first great sith lord: Ajunta Pall....
Or do we really know if that was the "True Sith" way??? Me personally, I do not know, but as may others I would like to know what happened.
No, we don't know.

Kreia uses the term to distinguish between the Sith led recently by dark lords like Nihilus, Sion, herself, Revan, Malak, Exar Kun, Ulic Qel-Droma and the ancient Sith.

The dark jedi did not, however, learn from Sith knowledge on Korriban - it's just the other way around, as while there was indeed a Sith species on Korriban at the time, they have very little or no knowledge of the force.

They gained that knowledge only after the dark jedi were exiled from the Republic and found their way to worlds like Korriban after the Hundred Year Darkness. The Sith species worshipped the dark jedi as gods, but as the dark jedi ruled and interbred with them, the distinction between the two became less and less.

The original dark jedi were humans or mostly so, which is why the ghost of a dark jedi like Ajunta Pall appears human and even mentions the betrayal of his jedi masters, if Revan asks about it in KotOR1.

Later dark sided Sith lords, such as Naga Sadow, and especially Marka Ragnos and Ludo Kressh appear less human, because they are all human/sith half-breeds to various degrees. Sadow seems a little more human than most and even talks about his "jedi blood" with pride.

The persistant idea that were was some uber-Sith race at some point, while popular, is not supported by facts and even contradicts established Star Wars history and seems mostly to be borne by fanboy insistance, as there is no basis for claiming such an uber-race ever existed that I have ever seen.


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Old 09-29-2007, 06:59 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile

The persistent idea that there were some uber-Sith race at some point, while popular, is not supported by facts and even contradicts established Star Wars history and seems mostly to be borne by fanboy insistence, as there is no basis for claiming such an uber-race ever existed that I have ever seen.
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Old 09-30-2007, 02:18 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile


They gained that knowledge only after the dark jedi were exiled from the
The persistant idea that were was some uber-Sith race at some point, while popular, is not supported by facts and even contradicts established Star Wars history and seems mostly to be borne by fanboy insistance, as there is no basis for claiming such an uber-race ever existed that I have ever seen.
It is not born from "fanboy insistance", In KOTOR 1 and KOTOR 2 it says that there was an "uber-Sith" race at one point and time, when I do not think we know, but there was. Would you think that all of Korriban was only just a burial ground for the "Dark Jedi" that were Exiled?? I do not think that all of Korriban is only the resting place for the "Dark Jedi", but the "original Sith" as a race too.

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Old 09-30-2007, 07:29 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Rev7
It is not born from "fanboy insistance", In KOTOR 1 and KOTOR 2 it says that there was an "uber-Sith" race at one point and time, when I do not think we know, but there was.
Sorry, but no there wasn't, and the the KotOR games don't say so either. They say that a powerful Sith empire existed, sure, but that empire was founded on the knowledge of the dark side of the force that the dark jedi brought to Korriban and the Sith species after they (the dark jedi) were exiled from the Republic. The KotOR games are remarkably and admirably true to the established Star Wars history in this regard and follows closely what was set up in the KotOR comic books that the games were founded on. That this is so is well established in the "Golden Age of the Sith" comic books, which the KotOR games seem to accept as gospel.

Besides, Wookieepedia's entry on the Sith Empire leaves little doubt about this: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sith_Empire

Nor do the sources I pointed to in my last post:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Hundred_Year_Darkness
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Korriban

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev7
Would you think that all of Korriban was only just a burial ground for the "Dark Jedi" that were Exiled?? I do not think that all of Korriban is only the resting place for the "Dark Jedi", but the "original Sith" as a race too.
What I may or may not think does not matter. These are facts of Star Wars history.

You're correct that Korriban is not just a burial ground for the dark jedi, but nor has anybody suggested that. Korriban became a burial ground for the greatest dark lords of the Sith Empire, which was established by the numbers of the Sith species and the knowledge the dark jedi brought to them. The vast majority of Sith lords buried there were human/sith-species halfbreeds, which incluces both Ludo Kressh, Naga Sadow and Marka Ragnos. Those were all half-breeds and not members of this alleged Sith uber-race. Ajunta Pall wasn't a member of the Sith species either, only he was human instead of a halfbreed.

Sure, there was an original Sith race - http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sith_species - but there is no basis that I've ever seen for claiming they were uber-force users. All the evidence I've seen suggests just the opposite.


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Last edited by Jediphile; 09-30-2007 at 07:12 PM.
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Old 10-02-2007, 06:43 PM   #45
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IT says in KotOR 1 that there once was a "uber-sith" colony, that is generally what I meant when I said that, but we do know that the original Sith were "thriving" at on point in time... then became extinct. I guess that the whole "fanboy" creation that there is still the Original Sith existing, is fake, but this could POSSIBLY be answered is there is ever going to be a KotOR 3.
*** NOTE: I SAID POSSIBLY***

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Old 10-03-2007, 12:53 AM   #46
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Yes! Finally we have an idea of the True Sith that does not involve some ancient Empire of wierdo grey force-users that are the most powerful beings in the universe!

Lol, sry, its just that I have been very adamant about the whole True Sith idea as usually put forth (ideas close to what I described above).

In fact, I don't think there will be any kind of "True Sith" at all. Just more of the good ol' Sith Lords hiding out in the Unknown Regions.
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Old 10-03-2007, 12:58 AM   #47
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..more likely than not...

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Old 10-03-2007, 06:57 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
Yes! Finally we have an idea of the True Sith that does not involve some ancient Empire of wierdo grey force-users that are the most powerful beings in the universe!
The whole "True Sith" as a race of powerful universal force users actually pre-dates this phenomina called the "Expanded Universe". They have been the subjects of conversations at RPG, Comic, and Sci-fi conventions for quite a while now... just a little FYI.


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Old 10-03-2007, 09:57 AM   #49
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so says you .... anyhow, if the True Sith are anything like the True Jedi in the TSL sense of the word, I hope they don't exist... I mean if that group of half wits, outcasts and force wounds are the genesis of the Jedi we know in later EU and film, what excuse for Darksiders will the True Sith be?

EDIT: IMHO



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Old 10-04-2007, 04:41 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by adamqd
so says you ....
Uh? Ok? Perhaps you shouldn't so readily dismiss something, the world of Star Wars existed long before there was something called an Expanded Universe.


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Old 10-04-2007, 11:39 AM   #51
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^^^
Note the Smilie! I wasn't dismissing anything, I'd just not come across that theory before tsl, and as an avid star wars Fan, it takes more than your word to make me believe something as gospel


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Old 10-04-2007, 11:44 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by RedHawke
The whole "True Sith" as a race of powerful universal force users actually pre-dates this phenomina called the "Expanded Universe". They have been the subjects of conversations at RPG, Comic, and Sci-fi conventions for quite a while now... just a little FYI.
Yes, but that's still just conjecture, whereas the Sith Empire as described in the KotOR comic books are canon.

Now, I know a lot of people dismiss it anyway and talk about A-canon, B-canon and what not, but dismissing Sadow and his invasion of the Republic is difficult in any event, seeing as how it's confirmed by Episode III in the sense that it's depicted in a frieze kept in Chancellor Palpatine's chambers.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Image:Palp-frieze1.JPG


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Old 10-04-2007, 11:48 AM   #53
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anyhow, if the True Sith are anything like the True Jedi in the TSL sense of the word, I hope they don't exist... I mean if that group of half wits, outcasts and force wounds are the genesis of the Jedi we know in later EU and film, what excuse for Darksiders will the True Sith be?
Hey, the Sith need a good shaming to silence them.


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"The Cambodian government has established many exciting-sounding 're-education camps' where both intellectuals and everyday citizens can be sent at any time," Day said. Well, we at Barnes & Noble have always supported re-education in America, and we intend to extend this policy to our new customers." For every hardcover book sold, Barnes & Noble will donate a dollar to the Cambodian government to help re-educate local children.
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Old 10-04-2007, 12:18 PM   #54
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Great theory, Jediphile. Seems more plausible then anything else out there. It even makes more sense knowing Darth Bane used Revan's holocron to become totally corrupted. It shows Holocron CAN be the source of a faction and/or event (Atris' fall proofs this too).

Anyways...to get to the bottom of this...
If there are "True Sith" there must be "False Sith" as well, by definition.

Imo, the False Sith are the ones from the K1 game. Adults trained to do some force tricks, given a saber on their birthday etc. Just like the Sith Assassin from K2. They are unable to...'corrupt' completely.
I think the True Sith are the ones like Sion. Who were dark and tainted from the beginning. Kreia was a Jedi, and Nihilus is the dark half of the Exile so they don't count.
Maybe the builders of the Malachor 5 Academy are the ones? Just a select group of individuals bursting with Force energy and holocrons full of knowledge?

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Old 10-04-2007, 12:46 PM   #55
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Great theory, Jediphile.
Um, if you are talking about holocorns being evil, then that was my idea.

If you are talking about the True Sith being remenants of an old Sith Empire led by Luddo Kressh, that's Jediphile's theory, and if the Holocron theory is proven wrong, then it is likely Jediphile's theory is correct.

Jediphile's theory and my theory are in conflict though.


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"The Cambodian government has established many exciting-sounding 're-education camps' where both intellectuals and everyday citizens can be sent at any time," Day said. Well, we at Barnes & Noble have always supported re-education in America, and we intend to extend this policy to our new customers." For every hardcover book sold, Barnes & Noble will donate a dollar to the Cambodian government to help re-educate local children.
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Old 10-04-2007, 03:51 PM   #56
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Sorry, Scope. I couldn't be bothered to read all of the posts in here. I'll do so next time...

It was the holocron theory I'm interested in though. It seems to blend nicely with Kreia's statement that the Sith are a 'believe' and not a faction.

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Old 10-04-2007, 05:03 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by SilentScope001
If you are talking about the True Sith being remenants of an old Sith Empire led by Luddo Kressh, that's Jediphile's theory
I recall reading at the Obsidian's forums a Q+A thread in which it was mentioned by the staff that the intention was to create a totally different Sith Order from the Marka Ragnos one.


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Old 10-04-2007, 05:33 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Hipmonlee
I recall reading at the Obsidian's forums a Q+A thread in which it was mentioned by the staff that the intention was to create a totally different Sith Order from the Marka Ragnos one.
The problem with that intention is that both Kreia and Sion actually mention the old Sith Empire and how Malachor and Korriban both belonged to it. We know little about Malachor, but Korriban was central to the Sith Empire ruled by Ragnos, Sadow, and Kressh, and which also just happens to be the only Sith Empire ever established...

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sith_Empire


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Old 10-04-2007, 05:45 PM   #59
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Jediphile, remember that whole "Ludo Kressh" theory?

Ludo's followers are far more different than Marka Rangos' followers. And after 6000 years of being stuck in the Unknown Regions, they may have morphed into a far more different Sith Order than what Ludo's fleets thought it would be. It is possible for there to be a totally new Sith Order that arisen from the ashes of the old Sith Order.


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"The Cambodian government has established many exciting-sounding 're-education camps' where both intellectuals and everyday citizens can be sent at any time," Day said. Well, we at Barnes & Noble have always supported re-education in America, and we intend to extend this policy to our new customers." For every hardcover book sold, Barnes & Noble will donate a dollar to the Cambodian government to help re-educate local children.
Full Article Here
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Old 10-04-2007, 06:25 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Jediphile
The problem with that intention is that both Kreia and Sion actually mention the old Sith Empire and how Malachor and Korriban both belonged to it. We know little about Malachor, but Korriban was central to the Sith Empire ruled by Ragnos, Sadow, and Kressh, and which also just happens to be the only Sith Empire ever established...
When did they mention that those planets belonged to the true Sith empire? As far as i recall, they only said they were connected.

Still, the Unknown regions are far from the location of the Old Sith Empire. It just doesn't add up that its descendants would suddenly cross half galaxy to reestablish.


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Old 10-04-2007, 07:21 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Jediphile, remember that whole "Ludo Kressh" theory?

Ludo's followers are far more different than Marka Rangos' followers. And after 6000 years of being stuck in the Unknown Regions, they may have morphed into a far more different Sith Order than what Ludo's fleets thought it would be. It is possible for there to be a totally new Sith Order that arisen from the ashes of the old Sith Order.
????

Where do you get that from?

Ludo Kressh and Naga Sadow fought for the title of dark lord upon the death of Marka Ragnos. Their fight eventually led to the Great Hyperspace War a little over a milliennium before the KotOR games. Ragnos, Sadow and Kressh were all contemporaries, and they all lived less than 2000 years after the dark jedi were exiled from the Republic and came to Korriban, where they enslaved the Sith species and founded the Sith Empire. There are no 6000 years in question here.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sith_Empire
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Timel...d_Republic_era

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Originally Posted by Hipmonlee
When did they mention that those planets belonged to the true Sith empire? As far as i recall, they only said they were connected.

Still, the Unknown regions are far from the location of the Old Sith Empire. It just doesn't add up that its descendants would suddenly cross half galaxy to reestablish.
Kreia: "You must go where Revan did, into the Unknown Regions, where the Sith, the true Sith, wait in the dark for the great war that comes. And he came because Malachor, like Korriban, lies on the fringes of the ancient Sith Empire, where the true Sith wait for us, in the dark."

Sion: "It is a place where the Sith teachings run strong... it is the threshold of the borders of an ancient empire. Kreia says it was a place of reflection for the ancient Sith... a gateway to their lands. It drew Lord Revan... and it calls to her as well.She said that the teachings here will lead one to the Sith... the true Sith... and all their shadowed worlds. This place led Revan to the graveyards of Korriban... and beyond."


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Old 10-04-2007, 07:51 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Jediphile
Kreia: "You must go where Revan did, into the Unknown Regions, where the Sith, the true Sith, wait in the dark for the great war that comes. And he came because Malachor, like Korriban, lies on the fringes of the ancient Sith Empire, where the true Sith wait for us, in the dark."

Sion: "It is a place where the Sith teachings run strong... it is the threshold of the borders of an ancient empire. Kreia says it was a place of reflection for the ancient Sith... a gateway to their lands. It drew Lord Revan... and it calls to her as well.She said that the teachings here will lead one to the Sith... the true Sith... and all their shadowed worlds. This place led Revan to the graveyards of Korriban... and beyond."
Ah, I see. Thank you for the quotes.

Still, there is ambiguity, imo. Kreia's quote only suggests that Revan went to the Unknown Regions. As far as I know, the Old Sith Empire was nowhere near that location. As for Sion, he's even more evasive. He only speaks about 'an' ancient Empire, not 'the' Empire.


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Old 10-05-2007, 04:13 AM   #63
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Star Wars Lore has it that the Sith Empire formed by the Exiled Dark Jedi and the Sith Race as mentioned by myself Jediphile and others is the first "Sith Empire" in the force using Dark lords of the Sith sense, so I would be lead to believe any "Empire" with any regards to the Sith to be this one. I happen to like the origins of the Sith as depicted in the TOTJ comics and feel no need to further Ret-con these classic stories.... So if the "True Sith" are anything other than Remnants of Marka Ragnos' (among Others) Empire, I'd Rather they didn't exist


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Old 10-05-2007, 12:20 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Hipmonlee
Still, there is ambiguity, imo. Kreia's quote only suggests that Revan went to the Unknown Regions. As far as I know, the Old Sith Empire was nowhere near that location. As for Sion, he's even more evasive. He only speaks about 'an' ancient Empire, not 'the' Empire.
Take a closer look at Kreia's quote. She says the exile must go where Revan did - into the unknown regions to fight the true Sith. Then she immediately mentions the Sith Empire. What's the point of that?

Let's look at the full quote:

Kreia: "You must go where Revan did, into the Unknown Regions, where the Sith, the true Sith, wait in the dark for the great war that comes. And he came because Malachor, like Korriban, lies on the fringes of the ancient Sith Empire, where the true Sith wait for us, in the dark."

1. The true Sith wait in the unknown regions.
2. Revan went there to fight them.
3. Revan came to Malachor because it - like Korriban - lies on the fringes of the old Sith Empire.
4. The true Sith are waiting in the ancient Sith Empire.

Conclusion: Ancient Sith Empire is in the unknown regions.

And just to back it up, Kreia continues with this:

Kreia: "Have we? You thought that the corrupted remnants of the Republic, the machines spawned by technology that Revan led into battle were the Sith? You are wrong. The Sith is a belief. And its empire, the true Sith Empire, rules elsewhere.And Revan knew the true war is not against the Republic. It waits for us, beyond the Outer Rim. And he has gone to fight it, in his own way.He left the Ebon Hawk and its machines behind, for he knew he would not need them."

Whatever the devs may have intended at whatever point, I find it very hard indeed to escape the conclusion that the true Sith are the descendents of the fallen Sith Empire. The devs may have intended something else at one point, but this is what is actually in the game. It was also intended at one stage that Visas should be evil and only available to evil characters, and that Nihilus' mask should be made from Revan's skull. I don't think we're going to argue those are true just because they were under consideration at one point.

Again, we have only one established Sith Empire in Star Wars lore at this point in time: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sith_Empire


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Old 10-05-2007, 05:26 PM   #65
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Off Topic:if nihilus' mask was considered to be revan's skull does that mean the developers intended to kill off Revan?

On Topic:I agree with silentscope's theory because when kreia says "And he has gone to fight it, in his own way." I dont she meant fight in his own way as physically fighting but more like fighting the beleif of the true sith
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Old 10-05-2007, 06:09 PM   #66
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Off Topic:if nihilus' mask was considered to be revan's skull does that mean the developers intended to kill off Revan?
It means that they did at one point, but since they cut that from the game, it seems fairly obvious that they either changed their minds or else LA changed it for them

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Originally Posted by baboyjhg
On Topic:I agree with silentscope's theory because when kreia says "And he has gone to fight it, in his own way." I dont she meant fight in his own way as physically fighting but more like fighting the beleif of the true sith
While I do not agree with SilentScope's theory about the true Sith, I think I should repeat that my skepticism in no way precludes the theory from being possible. SilentScope could certainly be correct. The theory is just a little too much "Sky Captain" for me, and I also doubt such a plot would be written into the game since it would leave few or no true enemies to fight against. But yes, it's possible, which would seem to me to result in a plot similar to that of Jedi Academy.


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Old 10-05-2007, 08:58 PM   #67
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Where do you get that from?
From one tiny little comment that the developer did not intend for the Sith Order of Marka Rangos to be the same as the "True Sith" Order. I was defending your theory here, stating that since there is a new leader of the Sith Order, Ludo Kressh, it is therefore different from Marka Rangos...and that therefore, both the developer's comments and your comments are correct.

The 4000 year figure was a mistake, I apologize. But a lot could have happened within 1000 years after the Great Hyperspace War. The Sith Order may have changed a lot hiding in the Unknown Regions. It may be VERY different from the Sith Order that we usually seen, just because of them hiding from the public and being far away from galactic influence of the Jedi.


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Old 10-05-2007, 09:10 PM   #68
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Off Topic:if nihilus' mask was considered to be revan's skull does that mean the developers intended to kill off Revan?
Where does it say that???

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Old 10-06-2007, 05:10 AM   #69
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Yes, but that's still just conjecture,
What the actual Sith Race was is all conjecture, even if it is stated in KotOR or Tales of the Jedi that the Sith Race was something or another does not actually make it so... some parts of history as we have come to know is basically 'pop' culture, the universe of Star Wars is no different (ret-con anyone?), so the True Sith Race can indeed be revealed as some ancient all-powerful beings. (I personally hope not, but it is possible, and the idea is deeply rooted in the fan-base from waaaaay back.)


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Old 10-06-2007, 05:15 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by SilentScope001
From one tiny little comment that the developer did not intend for the Sith Order of Marka Rangos to be the same as the "True Sith" Order. I was defending your theory here, stating that since there is a new leader of the Sith Order, Ludo Kressh, it is therefore different from Marka Rangos...and that therefore, both the developer's comments and your comments are correct.
Okay, but even if that were so, Ludo Kressh would not have been involved, since he became dark lord only a few years after Ragnos' death and was then shortly after killed in the final battle with Naga Sadow. The KotOR games are set more than millennium after Ludo Kressh's death at the end of the Great Hyperspace War, when the Sith Empire fell.

But I would agree that since we know very little about the true Sith, we have no way of knowing what traditions they have or what structure they follow in their society. That's why I call them the descendents of the Sith Empire, not the Sith Empire itself.

I'd confess that I'd like them to be close to that. A society that dreams of their once great heritage during the golden age of the Sith. For example, I'd like them to be ruled by the same structure as before - by a dark lord who is adviced by a sith council consisting of ten sith lords. To have eleven powerful sith lords that must all be defeated to end the threat of the true Sith... That sounds pretty good to me. But granted, that's pure conjecture and personal taste.

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The 4000 year figure was a mistake, I apologize. But a lot could have happened within 1000 years after the Great Hyperspace War. The Sith Order may have changed a lot hiding in the Unknown Regions. It may be VERY different from the Sith Order that we usually seen, just because of them hiding from the public and being far away from galactic influence of the Jedi.
Sure. As you say, a lot can happen in a 1000 years.

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Originally Posted by baboyjhg
Off Topic:if nihilus' mask was considered to be revan's skull does that mean the developers intended to kill off Revan?
Where does it say that???
For one thing, it's mentioned in wookieepedia's description of Nihilus in the section "Behind the scenes", third paragraph from the end before the next section, which lists Nihilus' appearances: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Nihilus

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Originally Posted by Wookieepedia
The initial plot written by Obsidian Entertainment stated that his mask was made out of Revan's skull, but the developers scrapped the idea to leave the fate of the character open.
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What the actual Sith Race was is all conjecture, even if it is stated in KotOR or Tales of the Jedi that the Sith Race was something or another does not actually make it so... some parts of history as we have come to know is basically 'pop' culture, the universe of Star Wars is no different (ret-con anyone?), so the True Sith Race can indeed be revealed as some ancient all-powerful beings. (I personally hope not, but it is possible, and the idea is deeply rooted in the fan-base from waaaaay back.)
No. Quite simply, no. Both the KotOR games and the Tales of the Jedi comic books are all canon. Sure, lots of fans don't consider them canon, but the fact is that Lucasarts do. Granted, they could retcon the whole thing, but I don't consider it valid to say that as a way to infer that the origin of the Sith species or the formation of the Sith Empire is any less canon than, say, Leia being Luke's sister, since that is also possible to retcon - maybe that wasn't the Leia from the original movie that we saw being born in Episode III. You may consider that a silly argument, but to me it's just as relevant to argue as it is to suggest that the established history is subject to change through retcon. It is, of course, but then so is Leia being Luke's sister. We could then argue which is more likely to be changed, but that seems like an incredible moot discussion to me.

So if you suggest that the Sith species is just conjecture, then the same argument is possible to make about any and all bits of Star Wars history that whomever may not like so much. To me such a argument would be an exercise in futility. I don't understand why you make that statement at all.


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Old 10-07-2007, 12:38 AM   #71
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"The initial plot written by Obsidian Entertainment stated that his mask was made out of Revan's skull, but the developers scrapped the idea to leave the fate of the character open." -http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Nihilus


It is still not know if that happened or not.

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Old 10-07-2007, 06:20 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Rev7
"The initial plot written by Obsidian Entertainment stated that his mask was made out of Revan's skull, but the developers scrapped the idea to leave the fate of the character open." -http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Nihilus


It is still not know if that happened or not.
Actually, it is known that it did NOT happen, since it was cut from the game and Revan is revealed to still be alive - at least according to Kreia's knowledge. And since Kreia trained Nihilus, it seems reasonable to assume that she would have known.

The idea was considered at one point, but dropped like many ideas on the floor of the proverbial cutting room. Same as Visas being evil and only a companion to an evil exile or Hanharr being able to become a jedi. Those were all under consideration, but were dropped for various reasons and so are not canon and did not happen (though I hear Team Exile is restoring the option of turning Hanharr into a jedi in their mod, which was apparently dropped only because Lucas himself nixed the idea).


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Old 10-07-2007, 09:13 PM   #73
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The idea was considered at one point, but dropped like many ideas on the floor of the proverbial cutting room. Same as Visas being evil and only a companion to an evil exile or Hanharr being able to become a jedi. Those were all under consideration, but were dropped for various reasons and so are not canon and did not happen (though I hear Team Exile is restoring the option of turning Hanharr into a jedi in their mod, which was apparently dropped only because Lucas himself nixed the idea).
Do you mean Team Gizga??? I personally think it is kinda crazy that they are making Hanharr a Jedi (or more likely a Sith). Hanharr with a lightsaber is something that I cannot imagine.

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Old 10-08-2007, 01:58 AM   #74
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Do you mean Team Gizga???
No, Team Gizka is dedicated to restoring only what was left out due to the deadline. Making Hanharr a jedi is not one of those.

Team Exile, however, has announced their mod as a sort of add-on to TSLRP, where they are restoring stuff that Team Gizka will not, which includes the option to make Hanharr a jedi, from what I know.

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I personally think it is kinda crazy that they are making Hanharr a Jedi (or more likely a Sith). Hanharr with a lightsaber is something that I cannot imagine.
Well, it's just an option, and only if you play DS. And while Lucas seems to have nixed the idea for the same reason, wookiee jedi are already established in Star Wars lore.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Tyvokka
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lowbacca


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Old 10-08-2007, 04:04 AM   #75
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although Kreia does say that Wookiee's cannot feel the Force at this point in time... She could be mistaken, or lying of course, and obviously the aforementioned furballs can use the force.


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Old 10-08-2007, 12:06 PM   #76
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4. The true Sith are waiting in the ancient Sith Empire.
Could this be one of their armies, frozen until needed? Or frozen because the Exile and Revan bested them?

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Carbonite_Sith_Army

This holocron, including a Star Map led a Nightsisiter to it.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Carbo..._Army_holocron

Any thoughts?

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Old 10-08-2007, 12:50 PM   #77
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Take a closer look at Kreia's quote. She says the exile must go where Revan did - into the unknown regions to fight the true Sith. Then she immediately mentions the Sith Empire. What's the point of that?

Let's look at the full quote:

Kreia: "You must go where Revan did, into the Unknown Regions, where the Sith, the true Sith, wait in the dark for the great war that comes. And he came because Malachor, like Korriban, lies on the fringes of the ancient Sith Empire, where the true Sith wait for us, in the dark."

1. The true Sith wait in the unknown regions.
2. Revan went there to fight them.
3. Revan came to Malachor because it - like Korriban - lies on the fringes of the old Sith Empire.

Sure. No disagreement here.

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4. The true Sith are waiting in the ancient Sith Empire.
This i don't agree with. Like i said before, the Unknown Regions are nowhere near the ancient Sith territory. I don't see how they can link the 2 without messing up something, or without making up a weird connection. Together with the devs' statements, it seems to indicate me that they're not part of the same group.

Btw, i seem to recall a loading screen at Malachor V that said that the academy was built "tens of thousands of years ago". If that was the case, then it'd be quite obvious that the 2 (true and ancient sith) aren't the same.


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Old 10-08-2007, 01:08 PM   #78
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This i don't agree with. Like i said before, the Unknown Regions are nowhere near the ancient Sith territory.
And what is your basis for that claim?

Because it certainly seems to me that mentioning the Sith Empire - and there has been only one at this point - more than infers that that is what is being suggested here.

Why mention the Sith Empire if it has nothing to do with the ancient Sith?!?

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I don't see how they can link the 2 without messing up something, or without making up a weird connection. Together with the devs' statements, it seems to indicate me that they're not part of the same group.
That they are mentioned together is the link. To do that and then say they are not the same would seem like a weird connection to me. As it is, it hangs well together IMHO.

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Btw, i seem to recall a loading screen at Malachor V that said that the academy was built "tens of thousands of years ago". If that was the case, then it'd be quite obvious that the 2 (true and ancient sith) aren't the same.
It is true that this figure is mentioned, but then that just begs the question of why Korriban and Malachor are mentioned in relation to the Sith Empire so frequently toward the end of the game. I've always taken that as possible typo, because it just doesn't fit with what we know of the Sith and their history. For example, while that figure is mentioned, Sion merely says that the Trayus academy has been there for thousands of years...

What's the point of talking so much about the "ancient Sith Empire" and how Malachor and Korriban lies on the fringes of its borders and how it called to Revan, if it has nothing to do with the true Sith?!?


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Old 10-08-2007, 01:37 PM   #79
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And what is your basis for that claim?
http://www.xs4all.nl/~wrvh/galaxymap/galaxymap_p1.jpg
http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/1713/galaxy2ak3.jpg
http://img452.imageshack.us/img452/8...iles139xb6.jpg

1st map shows clearly the distance between both areas. Map 2 and 3 are from official sources (NEC and Clone Wars) to confirm its accuracy.


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Because it certainly seems to me that mentioning the Sith Empire - and there has been only one at this point - more than infers that that is what is being suggested here.

Why mention the Sith Empire if it has nothing to do with the ancient Sith?!?
Well, the claims aren't exactly determining. Like i said before, they are ambiguous to some point, and it can be argued that it wasn't the Ancient Sith empire they were referring to.

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It is true that this figure is mentioned, but then that just begs the question of why Korriban and Malachor are mentioned in relation to the Sith Empire so frequently toward the end of the game
Korriban is related to whatever Sith you may be talking about because that's were the Sith came from. So, whatever Sith group you make up, Korriban will be connected to them. Now, as for Malachor, that's a whole different story, and again, nothing we know about it tells us that it was related to the Ancient Sith empire. On the contrary, it was author's intention to be placed next to the Unknown Regions, ie: far from the Old Sith territory:

http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/1724/kotor2col6.jpg

This is taken from K2. While it contains some discrepances, it's quite clear that the devs wanted to place Malachor in the UR. I don't see how they can be connected to the Old Sith whatsoever.

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What's the point of talking so much about the "ancient Sith Empire"
But again, it can be argued that they talked about "an" ancient Sith empire, not "the".


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Old 10-08-2007, 02:36 PM   #80
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The Map shown seems to depict the unknown regions as a pocket of space west of the core, but to my knowledge it is anywhere that isn't properly charted, and the list of planets in this link seems to show that...

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Unknown_Regions#Planets

Korriban is not on the list, but, all maps and lists available are compiled as of the most resent in-universe history... I'm pretty sure the Galactic Map would be a lot less traveled in 4000 bby


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