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Old 12-11-2006, 11:01 PM   #1
SilentScope001
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Jolee's DS and Kreia's LS acts

I refer to the two Grey Jedi in the KOTOR series, Jolee Bindo and Kreia. Except, well, they don't sound Grey.

Jolee Bindo, for instance, is Grey. But he does a lot of LS actions, like breaking blockades. But, the only DS action i saw Jolee did was giving up on helping the Wookies...and prehaps sparing his wife.

Kreia is also Grey, but her infulence options are usually DS and she does not hesisate to use Dominate Mind whenever she wants. She seems like a manlipuative witch and is willing to do whatever it takes. The only three LS actions I saw Kreia worry about the consquences of actions (by doing a good action, you could be doing much harm), condemning a Dark Sider for mindless slaughter since she prefer more manlipuative methods, and saving the galaxy from the False Sith by training the Exile. Kreia also mentions that for whatever good she has done to the galaxy, she has done an equal amount of harm, but we do not witness for the most part her good, and see for the most part her harm.

Usually, since Grey Jedi are in the middle (as can be witnessed by looking at their alignment screen), they usually are neither good or evil. Quite possibly, under Kreia's section, I explained how she was both DS and LS, making her balanced, but it still doesn't seem that "complete". But Jolee didn't seem to do any DS actions...

So, what I want to know is what DS actions does Jolee do and what LS actions did Kreia does. Since we see Jolee's LS actions and Kreia's DS actions, the DS and the LS should cancel out and create the Grey Jedi we love. Please help me find these DS and LS actions that make these Grey Jedi...well....Grey.
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Old 12-12-2006, 12:25 AM   #2
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Kriea was once the Jedi Achive person... she kept the records... so at one time she was a Jedi Master.... and Kriea is Darksided throughout the game, she just hides it until the final battle.

Jolee, never made it past Padawan... poor guy. NOT! Jolee, if you'll notice is a little Lightsided... he is not completely grey.... was never light nor dark, he was on his way to being light, and he doesn't care what choices you make... therefor making him a Grey Jedi Padawan
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Old 12-12-2006, 02:24 AM   #3
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It depends on the definition of grey, I guess.

For me, Jolee is grey because he rejects the jedi order. But in his case, that's a good thing, considering how arrogant the council has become. I actually find Jolee more insigthful and wise than the entire jedi council combined, and therefore more benevolent also, his cranky disposition not withstanding - it really just becomes a lovable character flaw

Kreia, however, isn't grey at all to me. She just tries to wear her "greyness" as a mask, so that she can appear more benevolent than she really is. She may not be entirely dark, in that she is not out to subject all living things to her own will, as most Sith lords do, yet she still puts her own goals and desires above the well-being of everyone else, and that certainly is not the way of the jedi - be they grey or otherwise. That the ultimate goal of her intents may be considered somewhat based on concern for the greater good becomes secondary by the lengths she is willing to go to and what she is prepared to do to get her own way. If Kreia is grey, then her grey is darker than the black of many a Sith lord...


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Old 12-12-2006, 04:17 PM   #4
Titanius Anglesmith
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Jolee is grey only because he rejects the council, and I like him all the more for it.

Kreia, IMO, is completely dark and she only wears her "greyness" as a mask.


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Old 12-12-2006, 05:54 PM   #5
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Kreia is not trully grey, i mean she is a sith lord.
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Old 12-12-2006, 07:03 PM   #6
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Jolee is grey because he says so himself: "I can assure you I see more grey than light or dark and frankly both extremes annoy me." The shades of grey are those in between choices.

Kreia was a DS grey Jedi. She pointed out the advantages of both but she leaned more towards the manipulative side of things which lead to the dark side.

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Old 12-12-2006, 07:11 PM   #7
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Kreia is a tricky one, as was she always DS but you just couldnt see it (although I always thought what she was saying was quite DS) or did she just find the lure of the DS too strong and go back to it?

Jolee as described on the official kotor website;
Quote:
"A former smuggler, and skilled Jedi, who has chosen to retreat from society and live out his days in seclusion and obscurity, Jolee Bindo cloaks himself in indifference to hide his sorrow. He appears as a cantankerous old man who readily dismisses the wide world and its troubles with an impatient wave of his hand, but his care and wisdom still shine through the many layers he has draped around his heart.

His story is unknown aside from rumors that he fought in the great war of Exar Kun four decades ago, a time when Jedi turned against Jedi and the dark side threatened to swallow the galaxy. What happened so long ago that would push a man to leave the Jedi order, to leave civilization itself and go into self-imposed exile in the deepest shadows of wild Kashyyyk? Jolee himself is not forthcoming and scoffs at any suggestion that he might be something more than what he appears: an old man.

One thing that is very clear; he is weary of this world and its endless, pointless struggles. He insists that all he wants is peace, but Jolee Bindo's eyes, the eyes of a fighter, the eyes of a Jedi - tell a different story."



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Old 12-13-2006, 07:49 AM   #8
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Kreia (pre-Traya) was a lot more gray than Jolee. Jolee was clearly LS but was considered a gray jedi because he rejected the order.
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Old 12-13-2006, 10:53 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Usually, since Grey Jedi are in the middle (as can be witnessed by looking at their alignment screen), they usually are neither good or evil.
Indeed being in the middle does not necessarily mean neither good nor evil. Even a grey jedi could actually be good, if you assume human beings are good in nature.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbl
Jolee was clearly LS but was considered a gray jedi because he rejected the order.
IMO Jolee is definitely LS; him voluntarily leaving the Jedi Order does not make him grey; indeed, it tells even more of his LS nature.

And Kreia... what do you think? Don't tell me you truly believe she's grey. She even changed his entire outfit and hair clippings in the end to shout at you, "I'm DARK!" She's dark all along. It's just that she's cleverly dark, and she commits dark deeds not to gain dark side points, but genuinely because she has reasons doing it.

But whether that makes her darker than other dark lords is a matter of opinion. I'd say she's less dark. Darkness for darkness's sake is just utter evil.
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Old 12-13-2006, 11:39 AM   #10
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't grey jedi just jedi who have left the order but not fallen to the dark side?

I don't get the impression that their being "grey" means that they are any more or less "light" than the jedi in the order - they have just left the order and don't feel compelled to follow the code. That doesn't say anything about whether they are more or less "light-sided" than the jedi who still follow the code within the order. At least that's my impression.

Same thing with dark jedi. They've left the order, whether the jedi or the sith, and embrace the dark side. But they don't do so according to any code.


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Old 12-13-2006, 12:46 PM   #11
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Jolee was a thief ("Um...some just had more than they could use"), more than a little arrogant and self-pitying ("The Order left me") and he does have a temper ("Manhandle my garden will they?!"). Had he faced his "punishment" to serve as a Jedi, he may have been a powerful voice for moderation and against the "we are Jedi, so we are right" mentality. Instead, he chooses to run and duck in the woods. He does nothing about the Wookiee situation, either.

Kreia? The most noble reasons of all. She wants to spare the universe the endlesd cycle of pain, war, and death brought on by the Jedi/Sith, Light Side/Dark Side battles that burn the galaxy. She wants people to achieve their own destiny, choose their own path without interference from religious groups or the pernicious Force that keeps its balance (and survival for its own sake). She also will scold a DS Exile over senseless cruelty. An act - charitable or cruel - must serve a purpose.


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Old 12-13-2006, 12:46 PM   #12
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Jolee's 'greyness' at the beginning of the game may have been due to him turning his back on the galaxy and doing nothing instead of using his powers for good. He does some good stuff once he joins you, but he didn't work too hard at stopping evil when he had the opportunity prior to meeting the PC. Smuggling/stealing isn't exactly a lightside act, even if it's Robin Hood-esque in intent.

Edit: Allronix, I didn't see your post before I hit the submit button.


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Old 12-13-2006, 12:51 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jediphile
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't grey jedi just jedi who have left the order but not fallen to the dark side?

I don't get the impression that their being "grey" means that they are any more or less "light" than the jedi in the order - they have just left the order and don't feel compelled to follow the code. That doesn't say anything about whether they are more or less "light-sided" than the jedi who still follow the code within the order. At least that's my impression.
Um... I looked up in Wiki and it reads:

Most Gray Jedi had a tense relationship with the Council – while, for most intents and purposes, they were loyal members of the Jedi Order, their maverick natures often put them into conflict with it, especially against more conservative members of the Council.

And

"Jinn always does things his own way, always sure he is right, always incredulous if we do not see it his way. Some think he is a gray Jedi."
—Tyvokka on Qui-Gon Jinn

Qui-Gon certainly did not leave the order, but "some think he's a grey jedi".

I think grey jedi just mean jedi who don't stick to the Order rules, not necessarily being out of the Order.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jediphile
Same for dark jedi...
From Wiki:

Dark Jedi, also known as "Fallen" Jedi were Force-sensitives, frequently Jedi, who chose to deny the light side of the Force and follow the dark side.

It seems that "fallen siths" (or should I say "risen"? Weird...) are not "dark jedi". Only have-been jedi can be "dark jedi". They may follow Sith teachings, which makes them Siths too.

I think it makes sense because I remember in K1/K2 I always hear some voice saying, "Another dark jedi!" while I know the enemies there were Sith.

Last edited by Evln; 12-13-2006 at 01:02 PM.
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Old 12-13-2006, 02:21 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Allronix
Jolee was a thief ("Um...some just had more than they could use"), more than a little arrogant and self-pitying ("The Order left me") and he does have a temper ("Manhandle my garden will they?!"). Had he faced his "punishment" to serve as a Jedi, he may have been a powerful voice for moderation and against the "we are Jedi, so we are right" mentality. Instead, he chooses to run and duck in the woods. He does nothing about the Wookiee situation, either.
I think that's a little harsh. Yes, Jolee was gray in the sense that he was willing to bend the rules of the order, though I do think he adhered to its spirit. "More than they could use" could suggest a redistribution of wealth for the sake of the greater good, a la Robin Hood, as Jae points out. However, while that may be a violation of the law, I don't see it as being against the jedi mindset. On the contrary. The jedi are supposed to be compassionate and help the poor and destitute, so Jolee giving them stuff would seem consistent.

As for "the Order left me", I don't think that's self-pity. On the contrary, Jolee was filled with self-loathing over his failings. He desperately need the order to impose some kind of penance on him, so that he could atone for his actions. The order failed him completely by just forgiving him. That's why he left.

And he doesn't do anything to help the Wookiees, because the Wookiees don't do anything about it either. He seems quite willing to help them, but he can't be a god that saves them from all their troubles, and he knows that. It always seemed to me that he was waiting for the Wookiees to stand up to Czerka before he would aid them. That's the thing about Jolee - he may help, but he won't be paternalistic in the condesending sort of way, where he solves all the problems for someone. They have to make an effort themselves first. It's one thing I really like about Jolee - he's not the typical all-fatherly know-it-all that many jedi are.

As for running away, I just don't think Jolee felt anyone needed him. Wouldn't it be arrogant to assume the council or the rest of the galaxy couldn't do quite well without him?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allronix
Kreia? The most noble reasons of all. She wants to spare the universe the endlesd cycle of pain, war, and death brought on by the Jedi/Sith, Light Side/Dark Side battles that burn the galaxy. She wants people to achieve their own destiny, choose their own path without interference from religious groups or the pernicious Force that keeps its balance (and survival for its own sake). She also will scold a DS Exile over senseless cruelty. An act - charitable or cruel - must serve a purpose.
I agree with the principles here. Kreia's goals are, ultimately, benevolent from her standpoint. The problem with her lies with the lengths she is willing to go in order to achieve her goals. She is quite willing to sacrifice entire worlds full of people to reach her goals. That she let Nihilus know of jedi hiding on Telos speaks volumes. She may have expected the Exile to stop him, but she couldn't be certain it would go that way, and had it not, it is quite clear that she would have had no problem letting Telos die. Although her ultimate goal may be admirable as a principle, Kreia remains utterly ruthless and uncaring in the pursuit of her goals. If she have to sacrifice innocents to reach her goals, then she's quite willing to step over a few bodies. So I really consider her very dark sided.


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Old 12-13-2006, 03:18 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
I agree with the principles here. Kreia's goals are, ultimately, benevolent from her standpoint. The problem with her lies with the lengths she is willing to go in order to achieve her goals. She is quite willing to sacrifice entire worlds full of people to reach her goals. That she let Nihilus know of jedi hiding on Telos speaks volumes. She may have expected the Exile to stop him, but she couldn't be certain it would go that way, and had it not, it is quite clear that she would have had no problem letting Telos die. Although her ultimate goal may be admirable as a principle, Kreia remains utterly ruthless and uncaring in the pursuit of her goals. If she have to sacrifice innocents to reach her goals, then she's quite willing to step over a few bodies. So I really consider her very dark sided.
I concur. I also think some of you are a little harsh on Jolee, what was he meant to do about Czerka, especially if the Wookie leadership had signed deals with them?



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Old 12-13-2006, 03:43 PM   #16
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True, but it was for the sake or argument. Honestly, I think Kreia is a manipulative, nasty hag that would kill the whole galaxy to prove her bloody point, and that Jolee is the guy who lives the Code when others just spout it.


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Old 12-13-2006, 03:54 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Allronix
True, but it was for the sake or argument. Honestly, I think Kreia is a manipulative, nasty hag that would kill the whole galaxy to prove her bloody point, and that Jolee is the guy who lives the Code when others just spout it.
Fair enough. Although I would say that Jolee does not so much live the code of the jedi order as its very soul. But that's just me splitting hairs


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Old 12-14-2006, 12:25 PM   #18
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Let's put the whole philosophy and code things aside.

Jolee is a good person. Compare him to someone from everyday's life, Jolee may be cynical, but he's good, there's no doubt about that.

Kreia may is manipulative and cold blooded, and her goals to not benefit anyone. She's evil.

So for me, neither Jolee nor Kreia are in the middle between good and evil. Thing is, there seems to be no middle between good and evil in Star wars....
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Old 12-15-2006, 12:23 PM   #19
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Jolee is awesome and is only gray because he is not with the council.
Kreia got kicked out for being evil or something like that.
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Old 12-15-2006, 06:44 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Rasputin1st
Jolee is awesome and is only gray because he is not with the council.
QFE

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Originally Posted by Rasputin1st
Kreia got kicked out for being evil or something like that.
They exiled her after Revan went to war, because they felt that her teachings had led him to the dark side, since no "real" jedi would have embraced war like that.

Kreia: "I was a historian once, gathering the relics of the Jedi, learning the ancient mysteries. Always, there were more questions.One quickly learns that the Jedi code does not give all the answers. If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single idea. That is why Atris and the others blamed me, sentenced me. They believed me responsible for Revan's fall."


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Old 12-15-2006, 06:53 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
They exiled her after Revan went to war, because they felt that her teachings had led him to the dark side, since no "real" jedi would have embraced war like that.

Kreia: "I was a historian once, gathering the relics of the Jedi, learning the ancient mysteries. Always, there were more questions.One quickly learns that the Jedi code does not give all the answers. If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single idea. That is why Atris and the others blamed me, sentenced me. They believed me responsible for Revan's fall."
To be fair though I would have to say to an extent they were right if Kreia's teachings were the same as they are in TSL as I would say her teachings are dark in all but name. That said, I firmly believe that Jedi Council was weak and were to affraid of things to have clarity on any descions as I think over the course of K1 and TSL they were generally proven to be an incompetent lot with the exceptions of Vandar and Zhar (and from the cut content Vash) but I think, espcially Vrook, Kavar and Zez el whatever where weak and not real Jedi; I believe a Jedi's place is to protect the people no matter what, not hide because Jedi are being killed - (Yoda and Obi Wan had purpose in that they were waiting to train Luke to over throw the Emporer) where as the Council were hiding due to fear.



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Old 12-15-2006, 07:10 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by jonathan7
To be fair though I would have to say to an extent they were right if Kreia's teachings were the same as they are in TSL as I would say her teachings are dark in all but name.
I wouldn't agree entirely with that. Kreia doesn't like that the Force has a will that controls people and decides their fate. She wants to defy that will and break its control. That's her philosophy.

In itself there is nothing wrong about that, though it does depend on how you perceive the force. If the Force is basically another word for God, then Kreia is a satanic hero, as Satan in Milton's "Paradise Lost" or Ahab in Melville's "Moby Dick." I definitely think the comparison to Ahab is appropriate.

However, if you don't consider the will of the Force to be of a religious nature that you cannot question or challenge, since doing so would be hubris, then defying the force is really not much different than challenging authority in any manner, particularly an oppressive one, which is also okay. Kreia simply asks the age-old question: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? "Who watches the watchers?"

I have no problem with this philosophy. Where Kreia errs IMHO is in what she is prepared to do to reach her goals. She has no problem manipulating people in the most underhanded way or sacrificing countless millions (like on Telos) to further her cause. Be her goals noble or otherwise, that is not acceptable by any definition, if you ask me. She's far too ruthless and uncaring to the suffering of others as she pursues her ideals. So even though those ideals may be admirable and noble, they are undermined by what she is prepared to do for their sake.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathan7
That said, I firmly believe that Jedi Council was weak and were to affraid of things to have clarity on any descions as I think over the course of K1 and TSL they were generally proven to be an incompetent lot with the exceptions of Vandar and Zhar (and from the cut content Vash) but I think, espcially Vrook, Kavar and Zez el whatever where weak and not real Jedi; I believe a Jedi's place is to protect the people no matter what, not hide because Jedi are being killed - (Yoda and Obi Wan had purpose in that they were waiting to train Luke to over throw the Emporer) where as the Council were hiding due to fear.
As much as I dislike Vrook, I do think you're being a little too hard on the jedi masters in TSL. Consider this quote from their meeting with the exile on Dantooine...

"The last Jedi conclave was on Katarr, a Miraluka colony. And all of Katarr was destroyed, all of the Jedi killed...Including Master Zhar... Master Vandar...A Jedi doesn't care if he dies. Everyone does, but when we fight, when we sacrifice ourselves, it is for others, for the greater good. But our presence must not endanger others. And as long as we were visible targets, we were a threat to everything around us."

It's pretty clear to me that the jedi did not merely hide because they were afraid of the Sith, but rather because they feared what could happen to those innocents who got caught in the crossfire.

There are plenty of reasons to dislike the jedi masters of the KotOR era, but I don't think their decision to hide during the Shadow War was one of them. They actually did have good cause beyond saving their own hides.


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Old 12-15-2006, 07:38 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
I have no problem with this philosophy. Where Kreia errs IMHO is in what she is prepared to do to reach her goals. She has no problem manipulating people in the most underhanded way or sacrificing countless millions (like on Telos) to further her cause. Be her goals noble or otherwise, that is not acceptable by any definition, if you ask me. She's far too ruthless and uncaring to the suffering of others as she pursues her ideals. So even though those ideals may be admirable and noble, they are undermined by what she is prepared to do for their sake.
See I would disagree on the grounds that Kreia, goes with the Philosophy that people are better off fighting there own fight. I however think this simplifies a community. In that in a community you have soldiers, police, doctors, builders etc all who have diffferent but valuable jobs, in essence no one is better than anyone else, and all cannot cope without the other. What I mean to say I will always help other if they need it, and I do not believe helping another weakens them. I would have to confess that I am undecided as to the exact nature of the force. In itself though if Kreia's opinion was correct of the force then she could be considered 'righteous' however the evil she is willing to do can achieve these goals makes her evil. I suppose this comes more down to a matter of opinions though


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Originally Posted by Jediphile
As much as I dislike Vrook, I do think you're being a little too hard on the jedi masters in TSL. Consider this quote from their meeting with the exile on Dantooine...

"The last Jedi conclave was on Katarr, a Miraluka colony. And all of Katarr was destroyed, all of the Jedi killed...Including Master Zhar... Master Vandar...A Jedi doesn't care if he dies. Everyone does, but when we fight, when we sacrifice ourselves, it is for others, for the greater good. But our presence must not endanger others. And as long as we were visible targets, we were a threat to everything around us."

It's pretty clear to me that the jedi did not merely hide because they were afraid of the Sith, but rather because they feared what could happen to those innocents who got caught in the crossfire.

There are plenty of reasons to dislike the jedi masters of the KotOR era, but I don't think their decision to hide during the Shadow War was one of them. They actually did have good cause beyond saving their own hides.
I did not remember that quote, so they did have a reason, although I still believe they should have taken the fight to the sith (like Vash did in the cut content) I also think the council was foolish not to engage the Mandalorions (sp), how were they protecting the people then? Would Revan have fallen had older Jedi been there to advise? Perhaps I was being a little harsh on them, but I really dislike Vrook, I think hes arrogant and too far up his own arse.



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Old 12-15-2006, 08:28 PM   #24
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So even though those ideals may be admirable and noble, they are undermined by what she is prepared to do for their sake.
Prehaps she was faulted by adopting the same tactics as her enemies, using manlipuation to win, being driven cynical.

But, what I wonder is that is there any other way to counter the Force? She note it as how it manlipuate others...how echoes can cause people to do stuff...how it has a will. How can you counter a manlipuator...expect by manlipuating?

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What I mean to say I will always help other if they need it, and I do not believe helping another weakens them.
I would do so too, but the fact is, that it could weaken them, and that if it does, you are responsible. Nice acts has great, horrible effects. You give a person 5 credits, and he get mugged.

You go and save a wife of a person, and you deny that person the ability to decide what his truth in life.

You go and fight in the Mandlorain Wars, protecting a planet, and denying them the right to defend itself...so they become weak when you are gone, and the true threat arrives...

I will still do good actions, and Kreia states that it would great to help others...if you intend to weaken and harm them. "Healing is manlipuation," Kreia believes, after all. But a true LSer would not want to harm others, would not want to let others be hurt, even unintentionally by aiding them, letting them suffer something greater. Kreia states that, in an attempt to show that everything has consquences, and that one must think before they act.

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I also think the council was foolish not to engage the Mandalorions (sp), how were they protecting the people then?
But it was repeated over and over that they were waiting for the true threat to emerge, to attack them. That true threat could be the True Sith, which was revealed to be using the Mandalorains. What if the Jedi Council attacked the Mandalorians and gotten so weak that the True Sith easily invades and destroy the galaxy?

Or what if the Jedi Council, under the leadership of Kavar, learning more of the True Sith, fearful of letting the Mandalorians win, decides to fall to the Dark Side, and form the Sith Empire? Then, the Republic would have fallen, and a greater evil would be served.

While one may be angry at what the Council indescion and desicion has wrecked for the galaxy, do not be blind to your own arrogance and faults as well.

(Though the Jedi Council waiting for one strong in the Force to combat Darth Nihilus, while a nice throwback to the OT series...is also ironic, since only one who is deaf to the Force can kill off Nihlius. But they didn't know that. They should not be faulted for ignorance.)
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Old 12-19-2006, 08:20 AM   #25
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That's the thing about Jolee - he may help, but he won't be paternalistic in the condesending sort of way, where he solves all the problems for someone. They have to make an effort themselves first. It's one thing I really like about Jolee - he's not the typical all-fatherly know-it-all that many jedi are.
I like Jolee all for that.
There's the old wookie who chose to die to protect the honour of a deceased wookie, who actually conspired with Cerzka in slave trading. Jolee was all for letting the old wookie die than letting the truth be known. I once thought it was a DS act, letting an innocent die just to defend the honour that was undeserved. But well, now that I think of it, Jolee was just letting the old wookie have his way. If the old wookie desired so, and if "honour" was that important to their tribe, who were the outsiders to decide for them what's right and what's wrong?
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Old 12-19-2006, 10:08 AM   #26
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It depends on the definition of grey, I guess.
THe "official" definition is a Jedi who does not follow the will of the Jedi Council. It is not related to Jedi who are falling to the dark side.

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Old 12-19-2006, 01:05 PM   #27
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In itself though if Kreia's opinion was correct of the force then she could be considered 'righteous' however the evil she is willing to do can achieve these goals makes her evil. I suppose this comes more down to a matter of opinions though
It does. But I agree with you in this regard.

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Originally Posted by jonathan7
I did not remember that quote, so they did have a reason, although I still believe they should have taken the fight to the sith (like Vash did in the cut content) I also think the council was foolish not to engage the Mandalorions (sp), how were they protecting the people then? Would Revan have fallen had older Jedi been there to advise? Perhaps I was being a little harsh on them, but I really dislike Vrook, I think hes arrogant and too far up his own arse.
Oh, I do agree regarding Vrook. I still think he's just like that old master Jolee talked about in K1. If Vrook says something, go with the opposite and you'll probably be right, since Vrook is almost always wrong.

There is one thing to remember about the tactics of Nihilus and Sion during the Shadow War, though. Taking the fight to the Sith was not an option, because Nihilus and Sion were hiding their forces and striking from the shadows. That's why they call it the Shadow War. The Jedi, unable to locate their enemy, then gathered on Katarr to pool their resources. In doing to they drew the attention of Nihilus, who destroyed the planet and killed them all. The rest of the jedi then hid to prevent innocents from getting caught in the crossfire AND in the hope of making the Sith reveal themselves, if they thought the jedi were extinct. Unfortunately, it is at this precise moment in the plot that the exile returns of Republic space and Atris begins planting rumors that the exile is the last jedi. And so Nihilus and Sion begin to hunt the exile instead of feeling complacent and revealing themselves, as the jedi had hoped.


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Old 12-19-2006, 03:00 PM   #28
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Oh, I do agree regarding Vrook. I still think he's just like that old master Jolee talked about in K1. If Vrook says something, go with the opposite and you'll probably be right, since Vrook is almost always wrong.

There is one thing to remember about the tactics of Nihilus and Sion during the Shadow War, though. Taking the fight to the Sith was not an option, because Nihilus and Sion were hiding their forces and striking from the shadows. That's why they call it the Shadow War. The Jedi, unable to locate their enemy, then gathered on Katarr to pool their resources. In doing to they drew the attention of Nihilus, who destroyed the planet and killed them all. The rest of the jedi then hid to prevent innocents from getting caught in the crossfire AND in the hope of making the Sith reveal themselves, if they thought the jedi were extinct.
True, But I would have gone to Korriban like Vash did to see if I could find any Trace of the Sith from there (probably would have asked the Republic military if they could spare a ship with a compliment of soldiers) and see what I could turn up from there. Opposed to just hiding and hoping the Sith would reveal themselves... I'm unsure if Nihilus and Sion would have revealed themselves, I don't know what I think they would do, I presume you think the would then go to war with the Republic? (although Nihilus is obviously a special case as all he wants to do is eat )

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Unfortunately, it is at this precise moment in the plot that the exile returns of Republic space and Atris begins planting rumors that the exile is the last jedi. And so Nihilus and Sion begin to hunt the exile instead of feeling complacent and revealing themselves, as the jedi had hoped.
Did Atris actually plant rumours that the Exile was the last of the Jedi? (I don't think I've come across that before). I don't know why but I always assumed that the Exile was the last of the Jedi because the others (Kavar, Vrook, Zez el Kai) werent really Jedi any more, I also kind of got that impression from the speach Kreia gives when they try to strip the Exile of the force (what I never understood about that is, if the Exile is a wound in the force how can you stip him of somethign he doesnt have?). But there ya go



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Old 12-19-2006, 07:00 PM   #29
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@Jonathon - Of course they could strip exile of the force, if he didn't have it, how could he use it?

Jolee isn't completely evil. If you look at his legs on the character alignment page, there will be a bit of blue.
And I agree with Jediphile about Kreia, here goals are worthy to fight for, (in my opinion) but how she fights for it is evil.


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Old 12-19-2006, 07:21 PM   #30
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Did Atris actually plant rumours that the Exile was the last of the Jedi? (I don't think I've come across that before).
Indeed she did. You can get HK-47 to tell you that there is specific mention of the exile in the official databases, much to the exile's surprise, since that information should have been internal jedi data. Of course, this doesn't expose Atris as the one who did it, but you can get her to admit it, when you confront her on Telos if you can resist the urge to kill her. In the cut content, she even admits that she was the one who leaked the information about the jedi meeting on Katarr in order to draw out the sith - that's why she isn't there herself. You'll note that Zez-Kai Ell is surprised to hear she's on Telos, since he presumed her to have died on Katarr as well, which is still in the game.

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I don't know why but I always assumed that the Exile was the last of the Jedi because the others (Kavar, Vrook, Zez el Kai) werent really Jedi any more,
This is what Kreia criticizes and eventually passes judgment on the masters for (in the LS exile's story) - that they are driven and ruled by fear that limits them in their perceptions and prevents them from seeing the truth. As Yoda would say, fear is not the path of the light side, so fearing the destructiveness of the Sith or even the potential of the exile means that the masters do not adhere to the jedi code themselves, even as they accuse and judge others for failing to do so.

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I also kind of got that impression from the speach Kreia gives when they try to strip the Exile of the force (what I never understood about that is, if the Exile is a wound in the force how can you stip him of somethign he doesnt have?). But there ya go
What the jedi tried to do was not to "strip" the exile from the force as such, but rather to make him dead to it, so that he could no longer feel or manipulate it, as he indeed does on an instinctive and subconscious level. This is similar to what Nomi Sunrider did to Ulic Qel-Droma during the Sith War. Basically it makes a person non-force sensitive. The exile's special ability is that while he has cut off his own bond with the force itself, he still forms bonds very easily with other people and can therefore access their force through their bonds. It all comes as naturally as walking and breathing to him, so he never needs to make a conscious effort to draw on the force, even through others, which is part of his problem. What the masters tried to do was to remove his sensitivity, so that he could no longer feel the force in any way, whether consciously, instinctively, or subsciously.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Cut_Off_from_the_Force


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Old 12-20-2006, 12:36 AM   #31
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I reject the idea that Jolee Bindo is really "grey", outside of the definition that he's no longer a Jedi but hasn't fallen to the dark side. Jolee doesn't consider light and dark to be equal, he believes quite strongly that the Sith are evil and need to be stopped. I can't really think of anything "dark" Jolee ever did, not helping the wookiees wasn't a dark side act, it was just apathy.

I don't believe Kreia to be grey either; she's just a dark sider with a more sophisticated philosphy. Sometimes she does acts that might be considered "light side", but always with the intention that it furthers her own goals. If anyone is ever actually helped by her, it's either a form of calculated manipulation, or just pure coincidence.
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Old 12-20-2006, 10:25 AM   #32
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From what I remember, everything that Jolee says has to do with the practitioners of each side of the Force, not about the Force itself. He is light side, but feels that both the Jedi Order and the Sith are extreme.

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Old 12-20-2006, 10:44 AM   #33
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From what I remember, everything that Jolee says has to do with the practitioners of each side of the Force, not about the Force itself. He is light side, but feels that both the Jedi Order and the Sith are extreme.
True. Or to quote Obi-Wan, "Only a Sith deals in absolutes." That's precisely the problem for the jedi order in the KotOR games.


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Old 12-20-2006, 03:18 PM   #34
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Jolee, I think, was fibbing when he said he saw more grey than dark or light. Other than how he said he wasn't there to save the Wookiees from their own folly, pretty much everything he does is what a Jedi would do. He even says he's one if you choose a DS ending.

The same goes for Kreia. Her grey view of the Force seemed like a convenient way to avoid helping people while still hiding her true alignment.


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Old 12-20-2006, 08:15 PM   #35
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Jolee, I think, was fibbing when he said he saw more grey than dark or light. Other than how he said he wasn't there to save the Wookiees from their own folly, pretty much everything he does is what a Jedi would do. He even says he's one if you choose a DS ending.
So, falling in love, training your wife against the wishes of the Jedi council and watching her fall to the dark side is what a true Jedi would do is it? Besides, Jolee said to Bastila that:

"Just think of me as another non-Jedi in the group. With a lightsaber...and force powers."

Jolee is 'grey', make no mistake about it. I don't really need to explain why, because I'd just be repeating what others have already said. As per usual, I agree with Jediphile, about Kreia.

Her goal is noble enough, and her philosophy is something that I wouldn't consider evil and is something that I agree with, however the lives she is willing to sacrifice in order to achieve her goals is selfish, and that is what makes her evil more than anything.


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Old 12-20-2006, 08:29 PM   #36
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So, falling in love, training your wife against the wishes of the Jedi council and watching her fall to the dark side is what a true Jedi would do is it?
A true Jedi? Yes. I'd count a LS Revan and Luke as true Jedi, for instance, and they both made far greater mistakes than he did, and had lovers as well.

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"Just think of me as another non-Jedi in the group. With a lightsaber...and force powers."
That would contradict his other statement, which I would give more credence towards.


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Old 12-20-2006, 09:44 PM   #37
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So, falling in love, training your wife against the wishes of the Jedi council and watching her fall to the dark side is what a true Jedi would do is it? Besides, Jolee said to Bastila that:

"Just think of me as another non-Jedi in the group. With a lightsaber...and force powers."

Jolee is 'grey', make no mistake about it. I don't really need to explain why, because I'd just be repeating what others have already said. As per usual, I agree with Jediphile, about Kreia.

Her goal is noble enough, and her philosophy is something that I wouldn't consider evil and is something that I agree with, however the lives she is willing to sacrifice in order to achieve her goals is selfish, and that is what makes her evil more than anything.

I disagree I think Jolee was lightsided, but didnt agree with what alot of the Jedi Masters and there thoughts etc. That quote to Bastilia I always thought was more of a joke (at least I laughed at it and thought it was funny). Also I thought it was OK for Jedi of that era to get married? (e.g. Nomi Sunrider) It wasn't untill later that it was forbidden; and I wouldnt say Jolee is to blame for his wife falling to the darkside... each most choose there own path.

I agree about Kreia and I generally agree with what Jediphile says too



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Old 12-21-2006, 03:12 AM   #38
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I disagree I think Jolee was lightsided, but didnt agree with what alot of the Jedi Masters and there thoughts etc. That quote to Bastilia I always thought was more of a joke (at least I laughed at it and thought it was funny). Also I thought it was OK for Jedi of that era to get married? (e.g. Nomi Sunrider) It wasn't untill later that it was forbidden; and I wouldnt say Jolee is to blame for his wife falling to the darkside... each most choose there own path.

I agree about Kreia and I generally agree with what Jediphile says too
Okay okay. Jolee, in terms of personality, actions and that was LS I guess, but I'm not looking at it that way. Star Wars is a black and white, fairytale world where LS = Republic/Jedi and DS = Sith.

Jolee is a good person, but he's not LS because he's not a Jedi in KotOR. If Jolee wasn't 'grey', then why is his alignment bar 'grey' in KotOR? Also, why can't Jolee wear gear that's restricted to LS'ders and DS'ders? Because he's grey. He's neutral, that's why.

He's a good person but he's not a member of the Jedi Order, the Republic or the Sith in KotOR, and that is what makes him grey. Being grey doesn't mean you're not good. And perhaps falling in love and marriages wasn't forbidden by the Jedi Order in the KotOR era, but it was certainly frowned upon by them.

They don't approve of it. I never said that Jolee was to blame for his wife's fall either. I just said that he watched her fall to the dark side, not that it was his fault that she fell in the first place.

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A true Jedi? Yes. I'd count a LS Revan and Luke as true Jedi, for instance, and they both made far greater mistakes than he did, and had lovers as well.
The Jedi Order in Revan's time didn't forbid Jedi from falling in love, but they were against the idea of relationships and all that. In Luke's time, apparently he made it okay for Jedi to fall in love then, but in Jolee's time, it wasn't what a true, code obeying Jedi would do.

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That would contradict his other statement, which I would give more credence towards.
What did Jolee say? I personally can't remember my self.


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Old 12-21-2006, 08:26 AM   #39
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Okay okay. Jolee, in terms of personality, actions and that was LS I guess, but I'm not looking at it that way. Star Wars is a black and white, fairytale world where LS = Republic/Jedi and DS = Sith.
I'd take the Republic out of that equation, but otherwise you're right that this is the usual way Star Wars works. It's a little more complex in the KotOR games, because the jedi order, and particulary the masters on the council, have themselves become arrogant, righteous, and judgmental. As much as I dislike them, that aspect is one that makes the KotOR games stand out - you can't judge the players simply by their colours in KotOR. Jolee is grey, but more benevolent than the masters. Kreia is both grey and dark, yet she still holds a better understanding of what it means to be jedi than the masters do. She is dark primarily because she understands and accepts her own fall, and so wishes no pity from anyone.

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Jolee is a good person, but he's not LS because he's not a Jedi in KotOR. If Jolee wasn't 'grey', then why is his alignment bar 'grey' in KotOR? Also, why can't Jolee wear gear that's restricted to LS'ders and DS'ders? Because he's grey. He's neutral, that's why.
He's a jedi, I would say. That he's not a member of the order doesn't mean that he isn't a jedi, at least not to me. Indeed, I consider him far closer to the spirit of what a jedi is than I do the masters. The rest is just game stats, which you can't always base stuff on. I mean, shouldn't that mean that Atris could have used the LS stuff during K1? If so, then the LS/DS axis loses its meaning, since it no longer represents good and evil, and instead the jedi order comes to symbolize order, since they place authority and chain of command above the well-being of people or even the Republic itself, while the Sith symbolize power, since that is what they each seek for themselves.

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He's a good person but he's not a member of the Jedi Order, the Republic or the Sith in KotOR, and that is what makes him grey. Being grey doesn't mean you're not good. And perhaps falling in love and marriages wasn't forbidden by the Jedi Order in the KotOR era, but it was certainly frowned upon by them.
Agreed. But I think we need to look a little beyond that. Jolee chooses grey, because he finds all of the above institutions to be extremist and uncaring to the suffering of the common man. He rejects the jedi order, not the other way around. Who does that speak more highly off?

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They don't approve of it. I never said that Jolee was to blame for his wife's fall either. I just said that he watched her fall to the dark side, not that it was his fault that she fell in the first place.
And that is at the heart of Jolee's problem. The jedi order never blamed him for this. But he could do nothing else himself, nor could he ever forgive himself. Thus his standards are higher than the order's were.

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What did Jolee say? I personally can't remember my self.
I would apply more significance to what Jolee does than to anything he actually says. Jolee is the sort of person who will say things just to provoke you and make you choose for yourself. He's a bit like Socrates in that regard. You have to look at what he does, not what he says.

And what does he do? He comes with Revan to "lead the snake away from everybody else," according to Jolee. And despite claiming to be grey, Jolee will not allow Revan to choose the dark side. If Revan makes that choice, Jolee will try to stop him, even kill him. Why? Because he knows exactly what the return of the dark lord would mean to the galaxy, and so he throws himself into preventing that from happening, guiding Revan until Revan makes his CHOICE. But if he makes the wrong one, Jolee will stop him, or at least try. That is not a "grey" act in my book, since Jolee actually DEMANDS that Revan choose the Light Side.


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Old 12-21-2006, 12:46 PM   #40
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Okay okay. Jolee, in terms of personality, actions and that was LS I guess, but I'm not looking at it that way. Star Wars is a black and white, fairytale world where LS = Republic/Jedi and DS = Sith.

Jolee is a good person, but he's not LS because he's not a Jedi in KotOR. If Jolee wasn't 'grey', then why is his alignment bar 'grey' in KotOR? Also, why can't Jolee wear gear that's restricted to LS'ders and DS'ders? Because he's grey. He's neutral, that's why.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
I'd take the Republic out of that equation, but otherwise you're right that this is the usual way Star Wars works. It's a little more complex in the KotOR games, because the jedi order, and particulary the masters on the council, have themselves become arrogant, righteous, and judgmental. As much as I dislike them, that aspect is one that makes the KotOR games stand out - you can't judge the players simply by their colours in KotOR. Jolee is grey, but more benevolent than the masters. Kreia is both grey and dark, yet she still holds a better understanding of what it means to be jedi than the masters do. She is dark primarily because she understands and accepts her own fall, and so wishes no pity from anyone.
I must confess Jolee's bar being Grey, seems as silly as Kreia's being grey in this reguard, as I would say neither of them were truly a Grey Jedi (when compared to some people such as the Imperial Knights, who I would clasify far more as grey, as I wouldnt say they were evil, but I wouldnt say they did things for the common good either). Although obviously Kreia being Grey is a plot device so that you don't see the twist of her being the Dark Lord coming. I would however go back to the earlier post I made where I quoted what the official KotOR website said of Jolee. Which to me says that Jolee does is LS but has grown weary and sad about the world.

I would agree that the KotOR games are far more complex that the OT, however if you look at the NT, Yoda says in AotC that Jedi are becoming more arrogant, and its prelevant even in the older more expieranced ones. I would say Windu would be such an example, indeed I would go so far as saying Yoda and Kenobi were the only Jedi who werent really arrogant. I personally think Windu had a secondary role in Anakins fall to the DS. While KotOR is far more complex than the films, I do think that some of the Jedi's problems remained the same.



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