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Old 12-21-2006, 12:50 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
The Jedi Order in Revan's time didn't forbid Jedi from falling in love, but they were against the idea of relationships and all that.
Did they? Bastila seems quite fearful of what the Council might do if they found out about her feelings towards Revan. She even says that falling in love is forbidden.

Revan: So the Jedi separates children from their families?

Bastila: Relationships with family members are fraught with powerful emotions. Such extremes are to be avoided. Anger and hate are the worst, but even love can lead to folly.

Revan: You aren't allowed to love?

Bastila: Emotional entanglements can be dangerous. They can impair rational thought, they can lead to outbursts of uncontrolled emotion. A Jedi must be above such things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
In Luke's time, apparently he made it okay for Jedi to fall in love then, but in Jolee's time, it wasn't what a true, code obeying Jedi would do.
Here the question of what makes a true Jedi comes in. So far, the truest ones have been the ones who were in love.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
What did Jolee say? I personally can't remember my self.
"I'm a Jedi... I'll never bow down to the Sith. If you go through with this I have no choice but to do battle against you."


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Originally Posted by Sabretooth
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Old 12-21-2006, 01:54 PM   #42
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The way I see is that at the end is the Kreia is DS because she chose to become the Dark Lord again so she does only use the gray to hide her DS and Jolee is just a rogue who know what is right and what is wrong.


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Old 12-21-2006, 07:22 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
I'd take the Republic out of that equation, but otherwise you're right that this is the usual way Star Wars works. It's a little more complex in the KotOR games, because the jedi order, and particulary the masters on the council, have themselves become arrogant, righteous, and judgmental. As much as I dislike them, that aspect is one that makes the KotOR games stand out - you can't judge the players simply by their colours in KotOR. Jolee is grey, but more benevolent than the masters. Kreia is both grey and dark, yet she still holds a better understanding of what it means to be jedi than the masters do. She is dark primarily because she understands and accepts her own fall, and so wishes no pity from anyone.
I agree with you that the Jedi Council in the KotOR games were bigoted and condemnatory though. I'm not judging the characters in the KotOR games simply by their alignment colour.

I said my self that Jolee's alignment being 'grey' doesn't mean he's neither a good or a bad person, but in Star Wars terms, it means that he's neither a Jedi or a Sith.

I don't think that LS = Good and DS = Bad. The KotOR games show this. You're right about taking the Republic out of the equation too. To me, LS = Jedi and DS = Sith.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
He's a jedi, I would say. That he's not a member of the order doesn't mean that he isn't a jedi, at least not to me. Indeed, I consider him far closer to the spirit of what a jedi is than I do the masters. The rest is just game stats, which you can't always base stuff on. I mean, shouldn't that mean that Atris could have used the LS stuff during K1? If so, then the LS/DS axis loses its meaning, since it no longer represents good and evil, and instead the jedi order comes to symbolize order, since they place authority and chain of command above the well-being of people or even the Republic itself, while the Sith symbolize power, since that is what they each seek for themselves.
Even though you and I both agree that Jolee is far closer to the spirit of what a Jedi is than what the masters are in the KotOR games, he's not a Jedi in KotOR precisely because he's not a member of the Jedi Order. I'd say he's a grey Jedi, not a Jedi. Jolee says that he's not a Jedi anyway. He doesn't want to be known as a Jedi in KotOR, so I think calling him a Jedi is a bit...odd, since he doesn't consider himself as a Jedi.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Agreed. But I think we need to look a little beyond that. Jolee chooses grey, because he finds all of the above institutions to be extremist and uncaring to the suffering of the common man. He rejects the jedi order, not the other way around. Who does that speak more highly off?
It certainly speaks more highly of Jolee, I agree. But according to Jolee, it is the other way around though. He said the Jedi Order left him, not the other way around. I've probably taken that meaning out of context though.

The way I see it, Jolee is what a true Jedi should be, but that's not what most of the Jedi were like in the KotOR era, so technically, he isn't a Jedi in KotOR, also keeping in mind that he says he isn't a Jedi too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
And that is at the heart of Jolee's problem. The jedi order never blamed him for this. But he could do nothing else himself, nor could he ever forgive himself. Thus his standards are higher than the order's were.
Agreed. But this only shows that he's not a Jedi, because he's not like how most of the Jedi in the KotOR era were. He's better than that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
I would apply more significance to what Jolee does than to anything he actually says. Jolee is the sort of person who will say things just to provoke you and make you choose for yourself. He's a bit like Socrates in that regard. You have to look at what he does, not what he says.
Like I've said, I'd call Jolee a grey Jedi, because his actions are like what a Jedi would do, but he doesn't fit the definition of what the Jedi were like in the KotOR era.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
And what does he do? He comes with Revan to "lead the snake away from everybody else," according to Jolee. And despite claiming to be grey, Jolee will not allow Revan to choose the dark side. If Revan makes that choice, Jolee will try to stop him, even kill him. Why? Because he knows exactly what the return of the dark lord would mean to the galaxy, and so he throws himself into preventing that from happening, guiding Revan until Revan makes his CHOICE. But if he makes the wrong one, Jolee will stop him, or at least try. That is not a "grey" act in my book, since Jolee actually DEMANDS that Revan choose the Light Side.
Huh? He didn't demand Revan to choose the LS, he just demanded Revan not to fall to the dark side. There's a difference there. You answered your own question.

He knows exactly what the return of the Dark Lord would mean to the galaxy, but you don't have to be a Jedi or a LS'der to realise that. To me, you're basically infering that someone who is 'grey' wouldn't make the choice that Jolee did.

I don't see why you have to be LS or be a Jedi to want to stop Revan from becoming the Dark Lord again. He even says so himself to Carth. He says that you don't have to be part of the Republic or the Jedi to want to stop Malak and the Sith. One more thing is, if Jolee isn't grey, then why did BioWare make his alignment grey for? Explain that one to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Did they? Bastila seems quite fearful of what the Council might do if they found out about her feelings towards Revan. She even says that falling in love is forbidden.

Revan: So the Jedi separates children from their families?

Bastila: Relationships with family members are fraught with powerful emotions. Such extremes are to be avoided. Anger and hate are the worst, but even love can lead to folly.

Revan: You aren't allowed to love?

Bastila: Emotional entanglements can be dangerous. They can impair rational thought, they can lead to outbursts of uncontrolled emotion. A Jedi must be above such things.

Here the question of what makes a true Jedi comes in. So far, the truest ones have been the ones who were in love.
I guess it was wrong of me to say that relationships weren't forbidden in the KotOR era then. I now remember Bastila saying that it's 'not allowed' too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
"I'm a Jedi... I'll never bow down to the Sith. If you go through with this I have no choice but to do battle against you."
He says no such thing. I've played as DS Revan before, and I don't remember Jolee ever saying that.


"Here is my final point. About drugs, about alcohol, about pornography and smoking and everything else. What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I ****, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?"

~ Bill Hicks

Last edited by The Architect; 12-21-2006 at 07:32 PM.
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Old 12-21-2006, 07:29 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
I guess it was wrong of me to say that relationships weren't forbidden in the KotOR era then. I now remember Bastila saying that it's 'not allowed' too.
No, I don't think any of us are actually wrong; we have different sources, I remember bastilia saying that in game, but at the same times as the KotOR games is http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Nomi_Sunrider and according to that marridges between force sensetives were encouraged... hmm confusing. You reckon they'll retkon it?



"Love is the only reality and it is not a mere sentiment. It is the ultimate truth that lies at the heart of creation." - Rabindranath Tagore

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Old 12-21-2006, 08:43 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
I guess it was wrong of me to say that relationships weren't forbidden in the KotOR era then. I now remember Bastila saying that it's 'not allowed' too.
We can trace that back to how the truest Jedi were the ones who didn't follow all the rules, which Jolee also did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
He says no such thing. I've played as DS Revan before, and I don't remember Jolee ever saying that.
He does indeed. I copied that from the main dialogue file in that module.

Did you have Juhani as a party member? He'll only say that if she isn't there.


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Originally Posted by Sabretooth
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Old 12-21-2006, 09:34 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
We can trace that back to how the truest Jedi were the ones who didn't follow all the rules, which Jolee also did.
The difference is, 'the ones who didn't follow all the rules' were still apart of the Jedi Order, and that is why they are still Jedi. Jolee is not apart of the Jedi Order in KotOR. Since when can you not be apart of the Jedi Order, and still be a Jedi at the same time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
He does indeed. I copied that from the main dialogue file in that module.

Did you have Juhani as a party member? He'll only say that if she isn't there.
I've played DS Revan with/without Juhani in the party before and he still doesn't say it. Maybe he doesn't say it in the Xbox version, which is what I have. Maybe he just says it in the PC version, which is what I don't have.

From what I remember, he says something like: "Don't make me do this. I don't want to, but I'll fight you if I have to. Even if it costs my own life." I don't remember him saying "I'm a Jedi" at all at the Rakata temple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathan7
No, I don't think any of us are actually wrong; we have different sources, I remember bastilia saying that in game, but at the same times as the KotOR games is http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Nomi_Sunrider and according to that marridges between force sensetives were encouraged... hmm confusing. You reckon they'll retkon it?
Who knows? It is confusing indeed. I smell a bit of contradiction here.


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Old 12-21-2006, 10:07 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
Since when can you not be apart of the Jedi Order, and still be a Jedi at the same time?
Here's where we get into technicalities. If Jolee is a Jedi in spirit but not in name, does that make him one? Or at the end of TSL, was Atris really a Jedi? She held the official title, but was far more like a Sith. Titles are not what a person really is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
I've played DS Revan with/without Juhani in the party before and he still doesn't say it. Maybe he doesn't say it in the Xbox version, which is what I have. Maybe he just says it in the PC version, which is what I don't have.
No, I think I saw it when I played the Xbox version. (That's been a while.) Do you recall this?

Revan: Yes! Together we can rule the galaxy!

Jolee: Listen to me... the dark side leads to death and destruction. I've seen the horrors the Sith have unleashed on the galaxy. Turn away from this path.

Bastila: Shut up, old man. Your time is over! The age of the Jedi and the Republic is no more! This is the age of Darth Revan and the Sith!

Jolee: Don't do this, kid. I don't want to, but I'll fight you if I have to. Even if it costs me my life.

Revan: I am the Lord of the Sith! Bow down before me!

Jolee: I'm a Jedi... I'll never bow down to the Sith. If you go through with this I have no choice but to do battle against you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabretooth
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Old 12-21-2006, 10:54 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Here's where we get into technicalities. If Jolee is a Jedi in spirit but not in name, does that make him one? Or at the end of TSL, was Atris really a Jedi? She held the official title, but was far more like a Sith. Titles are not what a person really is.
I do agree with this, but if you're not only not a Jedi in name and say that you're not a Jedi like Jolee does, then sorry, I still don't see why he's a Jedi for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
No, I think I saw it when I played the Xbox version. (That's been a while.) Do you recall this?

Revan: Yes! Together we can rule the galaxy!

Jolee: Listen to me... the dark side leads to death and destruction. I've seen the horrors the Sith have unleashed on the galaxy. Turn away from this path.

Bastila: Shut up, old man. Your time is over! The age of the Jedi and the Republic is no more! This is the age of Darth Revan and the Sith!

Jolee: Don't do this, kid. I don't want to, but I'll fight you if I have to. Even if it costs me my life.

Revan: I am the Lord of the Sith! Bow down before me!

Jolee: I'm a Jedi... I'll never bow down to the Sith. If you go through with this I have no choice but to do battle against you.
I recall every line, except for the last one. In fact now that I've seen that dialogue, I'm certain that Jolee never said that. I'd have to play through KotOR all the way again on the Xbox version as a DS Revan who kills Juhani on Dantooine just to see if it's true or not, but quite frankly, I don't want to go through all that crap again just to find out for sure if he said that or not. I'll believe it if more than two people can confirm it. If it's true, then I'm wrong about thinking that Jolee isn't a Jedi, but until then, I'll stay true to my belief that Jolee isn't a Jedi in KotOR.

Oh wait, you might be right, because I just remembered that instead of saying "I am the Lord of the Sith! Bow down before me!" I always say "Then prepare to die!" So maybe Jolee does say that, but only if you say the former, not the latter.


"Here is my final point. About drugs, about alcohol, about pornography and smoking and everything else. What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I ****, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?"

~ Bill Hicks
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Old 12-21-2006, 11:15 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
I do agree with this, but if you're not only not a Jedi in name and say that you're not a Jedi like Jolee does, then sorry, I still don't see why he's a Jedi for.
Ah, but Jolee is a Jedi in his actions. As I've mentioned before, he calls himself a a Jedi when he's faced with a good friend who suddenly turns on him. I'd lend more credence towards a statement made under those circumstances than idle chatter he was making with Bastila.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
So maybe Jolee does say that, but only if you say the former, not the latter.
That's correct. The line will only appear if you select that response.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabretooth
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Old 12-22-2006, 03:33 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
Even though you and I both agree that Jolee is far closer to the spirit of what a Jedi is than what the masters are in the KotOR games, he's not a Jedi in KotOR precisely because he's not a member of the Jedi Order. I'd say he's a grey Jedi, not a Jedi. Jolee says that he's not a Jedi anyway. He doesn't want to be known as a Jedi in KotOR, so I think calling him a Jedi is a bit...odd, since he doesn't consider himself as a Jedi.
I guess I look at a little differently. To me being a jedi depends on your convictions and not the conventions. Basically, it's as if the entire jedi order has declared that 2+2=5, while Jolee firmly maintains that 2+2=4. So he's not following the party line and is officially outside the order for that reason. However, he is still right and they are mistaken, so he is more of a jedi than they are in my book. I'll admit that he has some grey in him, since he doesn't follow the rules. That he takes a wife in violation of the rules is not particularly severe, but "redistributing" stuff from the rich who "didn't need it anyway" or agreeing to use Affect Mind to avoid paying for the use of landing bay or an entry fee is definitely more grey than white. But while we could argue on that basis that Jolee doesn't quite have the self-discipline of a jedi, he does have the heart of one, which is more important, I'd say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
I don't see why you have to be LS or be a Jedi to want to stop Revan from becoming the Dark Lord again. He even says so himself to Carth. He says that you don't have to be part of the Republic or the Jedi to want to stop Malak and the Sith. One more thing is, if Jolee isn't grey, then why did BioWare make his alignment grey for? Explain that one to me.
To me it's because it underscores the importance of a balanced view, where you actually weigh the concepts of good and evil instead of taking them for granted. And ironically, while Jolee claims to be grey with the result that Bastila questions his dedication to the cause, Jolee still holds far more firmly onto his ideals than any of the playable jedi characters in K1. I mean, Revan was Darth Revan before we even begin (and can be again), Juhani is dark sided when you meet her, and Bastila falls to the dark side during the story as well. Even the rest of the jedi may be questioned there, since the masters messed with Revan's memories, and Belaya's friendship with Juhani can also make her fall to the dark side.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathan7
No, I don't think any of us are actually wrong; we have different sources, I remember bastilia saying that in game, but at the same times as the KotOR games is http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Nomi_Sunrider and according to that marridges between force sensetives were encouraged... hmm confusing. You reckon they'll retkon it?
While you're right about the facts here, I don't think they need to retcon it. Bear in mind that KotOR1 begins about 40 years after the Great Sith War. The logical conclusion would be that the rules were amended during that period for some reason. It's a much bigger problem that the relationship between Duron Qel-Droma and Shaela Nuur is frowned upon by Guun Han Saresh, since their Great Hunt for the terentateks (which is the basis for a side-quest of sorts in K1 and has subsequently been chronicled in the Star Wars Tales comic books) takes place only a year after Exar Kun's defeat.


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Old 12-22-2006, 07:15 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
I guess I look at a little differently. To me being a jedi depends on your convictions and not the conventions. Basically, it's as if the entire jedi order has declared that 2+2=5, while Jolee firmly maintains that 2+2=4. So he's not following the party line and is officially outside the order for that reason. However, he is still right and they are mistaken, so he is more of a jedi than they are in my book. I'll admit that he has some grey in him, since he doesn't follow the rules. That he takes a wife in violation of the rules is not particularly severe, but "redistributing" stuff from the rich who "didn't need it anyway" or agreeing to use Affect Mind to avoid paying for the use of landing bay or an entry fee is definitely more grey than white. But while we could argue on that basis that Jolee doesn't quite have the self-discipline of a
jedi, he does have the heart of one, which is more important, I'd say.
If you ask me, Jolee is the perfect example of how a Jedi should be. Before I argued that what IMO didn't make him a Jedi in KotOR was that he does not identify himself as a Jedi and he was not a member of the Jedi Order.

However, as Emperor Devon has pointed out, Jolee does identify himself as a Jedi and since he's entitled to that recognition, he is a Jedi. As you've pointed out and as I know my self, he does what you'd call some 'grey' acts in KotOR, but IMO, every Jedi should have shades of grey in their actions and performing such acts as Jolee does doesn't undo a Jedi's status as a Jedi.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
To me it's because it underscores the importance of a balanced view, where you actually weigh the concepts of good and evil instead of taking them for granted. And ironically, while Jolee claims to be grey with the result that Bastila questions his dedication to the cause, Jolee still holds far more firmly onto his ideals than any of the playable jedi characters in K1. I mean, Revan was Darth Revan before we even begin (and can be again), Juhani is dark sided when you meet her, and Bastila falls to the dark side during the story as well. Even the rest of the jedi may be questioned there, since the masters messed with Revan's memories, and Belaya's friendship with Juhani can also make her fall to the dark side.
Ah, I see what you mean here. Jolee's 'grey' alignment bar is just there to the emphasize the point that he's the only character who no matter what, will stay true to his ideals, correct? He represents a balanced view of the perceptions of the LS and the DS, whether as the alignment of every other Jedi in KotOR is not balanced and is questionable, right? Good point.


"Here is my final point. About drugs, about alcohol, about pornography and smoking and everything else. What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I ****, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?"

~ Bill Hicks
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Old 12-22-2006, 08:41 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
Ah, I see what you mean here. Jolee's 'grey' alignment bar is just there to the emphasize the point that he's the only character who no matter what, will stay true to his ideals, correct? He represents a balanced view of the perceptions of the LS and the DS, whether as the alignment of every other Jedi in KotOR is not balanced and is questionable, right? Good point.
Yes, pretty much. Most of the jedi are pretty extreme in what they are prepared to do in order to achieve their goals.

Jolee has a more balanced view, because he's already seen it all and discovered the hard way where even the best of intentions can lead you. That's why he rejects both extremes. Because the Sith are just evil conquerors, while the jedi are arrogant and think they are above making mistakes or being corrupted in any way.

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes," Obi-Wan says in RotS. Well, the jedi order has just the same problem in the KotOR games, so Jolee turns his back on them - because he knows full well that you will almost assuredly lose your way if you follow your ideals blindly. The only defense against that is to constantly question and reexamine your own ideals and motives. The jedi in the order don't do that, though, since they are supremely certain of the righteousness (always be careful, when that word is used) of their cause.

Or to quote Thomas Jefferson: "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." The jedi order has forgotten that in KotOR and instead see doubt of the ideals only as weakness and lack of faith.


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Old 12-23-2006, 11:57 AM   #53
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I saw the marriage and family restrictions being snapped into place after Exar Kun, along with the idea of taking the apprentices as young as possible to avoid any influence their masters could not control.

Basically, in order to prevent a new Exar Kun, they would make sure that their apprentices had no attachments but that or the Order, no loyalties that could conflict (such as Ullic and Cay), no Jedi becoming parents as to prevent a Force Sentitve bloodline from producing someone powerful enough to be a danger. They would cut ANY competing influence, any possible means by which the Dark Side could get a foothold.

Bastial was the finest example of what that system could produce, and I mean it in the best and most backhanded fashion. Powerful, beautiful, saying all the correct sibboleths, graceful in battle, dedicated to the Order and the Republic...and as brittle as a dry stick.


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Old 12-23-2006, 09:56 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
If you ask me, Jolee is the perfect example of how a Jedi should be. Before I argued that what IMO didn't make him a Jedi in KotOR was that he does not identify himself as a Jedi and he was not a member of the Jedi Order.
Jolee is the ideal Jedi? Someone who thumbs his nose at all forms of law and authority whenever it suits him? Somebody who shows almost complete apathy in the face of evil?

Don't get me wrong, I liked Jolee's character and he's certainly a Light-Sider at heart. But a Jedi seeks out and stops injustice wherever he finds it, Jolee would be all too happy to just keep walking by. No, I think the Jedi Code is much better than Jolee's philosphy despite it's perceived flaws.
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Old 12-24-2006, 02:30 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Kavar
Jolee is the ideal Jedi? Someone who thumbs his nose at all forms of law and authority whenever it suits him? Somebody who shows almost complete apathy in the face of evil?
Apathy? He'll try and fight Revan if he turns to the dark side, though he probably knows he'd lose.

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Originally Posted by Master Kavar
Don't get me wrong, I liked Jolee's character and he's certainly a Light-Sider at heart. But a Jedi seeks out and stops injustice wherever he finds it, Jolee would be all too happy to just keep walking by. No, I think the Jedi Code is much better than Jolee's philosphy despite it's perceived flaws.
Jolee I think is just as just as the Jedi Council, if not more. Breaking the law to smuggle supplies to a starving planet is the most moral thing to do, though not the most legal one. In any case, we never see him show any apathy in the face of evil. Or not any more than Bastila or Juhani, (actual Jedi) at least.


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Old 12-24-2006, 02:38 AM   #56
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Ok, the answer to end all answers about Kreia...

Kreia was Gray, because she believed in not killing, but instead turning someone to your cause, making them see things your way. Most Sith don't care if they kill, but Traya decided not to, she learned Manipulation at the Trayus Academy, and so she can not use any fancy thing like Sion or Nihilus......
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Old 12-24-2006, 05:13 AM   #57
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No, Kreia is not gray. She's dark, very dark, and evil. She's willing to sacrifice just about everything to reach her goal. And not even her goal is "good".

But I think for this dicussion it would be vital to define "Gray Jedi" "Dark Jedi" and so on...
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Old 12-25-2006, 01:07 AM   #58
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Apathy? He'll try and fight Revan if he turns to the dark side, though he probably knows he'd lose.
It's also the only time Jolee will stand up as a Jedi to do the right thing, most likely because he knew the fate of the galaxy hinged on that one decision. Aside from that, Jolee is content to stand by while all sorts of heinous acts are committed around him, so long as it doesn't directly effect him.

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Jolee I think is just as just as the Jedi Council, if not more. Breaking the law to smuggle supplies to a starving planet is the most moral thing to do, though not the most legal one. In any case, we never see him show any apathy in the face of evil. Or not any more than Bastila or Juhani, (actual Jedi) at least.
Was breaking the blockade the most moral thing he could do? Of course his heart was in the right place, but what if by doing so he dragged the Republic and the Jedi Order into all-out war? Would the potential thousands, millions of deaths be justified because it seemed like the right thing to do at the time?

I'm not saying it isn't, but the point is even when he was a Jedi Jolee did what he wanted, and didn't worry about the consequences. If every Jedi followed his example, there would've been way more fallen Jedi. After all, I'd say 90% of all Jedi who ever fell to the dark side did so under good intentions.

As for apathy, we know for certain that he had the ability to shut down the Wookiee slave trading on Kashyyyk, but once he found out that it was Chuundar who had sold his own people out, he decided that it was basically their own fault and decided not to help anymore. A real Jedi would've set things right.
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Old 12-28-2006, 04:41 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Master Kavar
It's also the only time Jolee will stand up as a Jedi to do the right thing, most likely because he knew the fate of the galaxy hinged on that one decision. Aside from that, Jolee is content to stand by while all sorts of heinous acts are committed around him, so long as it doesn't directly effect him.
Actually, Jolee also strongly objects to his old friend Sunry murdering a Sith, even though doing so and then covering it up is in the best interests of the Republic. It's Sunry who forces the player's hand, not Jolee, who actually wants to expose the whole sordid affair. When Jolee doesn't do anything, it's because it's the player's choice as appointed investigator, not Jolee's.

Besides, you could make that argument for any of the other characters during any other part of the game, especially when Juhani and Bastila watch you steal the wraid plate from a widowed woman with no money and two children on Tattooine. Oh sure, they moan about it, but they do nothing at all. And they are supposed to be LS jedi to Jolee's grey?

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Originally Posted by Master Kavar
Was breaking the blockade the most moral thing he could do? Of course his heart was in the right place, but what if by doing so he dragged the Republic and the Jedi Order into all-out war? Would the potential thousands, millions of deaths be justified because it seemed like the right thing to do at the time?

I'm not saying it isn't, but the point is even when he was a Jedi Jolee did what he wanted, and didn't worry about the consequences. If every Jedi followed his example, there would've been way more fallen Jedi. After all, I'd say 90% of all Jedi who ever fell to the dark side did so under good intentions.
I disagree totally. Jolee did what he did exactly because he worried about the consequences if he did not act. Besides, how can you blame him for that and claim apathy on his part at the same time? Sitting around worrying for ages about the possible consequences of what could happen is apathy. And that's exactly what the jedi did during the Mandalorian Wars. You could argue that there was cause, but then if Revan had not acted anyway, all that caution would have been moot, since the Republic would have fallen.

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Originally Posted by Master Kavar
As for apathy, we know for certain that he had the ability to shut down the Wookiee slave trading on Kashyyyk, but once he found out that it was Chuundar who had sold his own people out, he decided that it was basically their own fault and decided not to help anymore. A real Jedi would've set things right.
So he should have saved the wookiees in spite of the wookiees doing nothing to help themselves? Sure, Jolee cares about the wookiees, but he is no god, and he knows it too. If Jolee had solves all the problems for the wookiees, he would have become their all-fatherly lord protector, which is basically the same as a god. That's just the sort of thing Jolee insists on not being. He may be a jedi, but that doesn't make him a god, nor should it. Being more powerful does not make his opinion more right than anyone else's, and he has no right to determine the course of evolution for the wookiees. Jolee knows and accepts this. So why did he stay on Kashyyyk so long? Because it was the wookiees' choice to make, not his, and once they do - for better or worse - Jolee leaves immediately. He also helps resolve the matter either way. And note that it's not Revan's choice either - Revan is forced by Chuundar and must they help or oppose him, i.e., the wookiees' decision, not Revan's or Jolee's.


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Old 12-28-2006, 07:00 PM   #60
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To me being a jedi depends on your convictions and not the conventions. Basically, it's as if the entire jedi order has declared that 2+2=5, while Jolee firmly maintains that 2+2=4. So he's not following the party line and is officially outside the order for that reason. However, he is still right and they are mistaken, so he is more of a jedi than they are in my book.
What if Jolee said 2+2=6? And the Jedi Order said 2+2=5? You will trust Jolee more than the Jedi Council?

More to the point, I dislike the idea of a "true Jedi", because then you open up a can of worms. It's equal to the "True Scotsman" argument, a logical fallcy.

Person A: Only Scotsmans drink tea and talk funny.
Person B: But...I saw a Soctsman who did not drink tean and talk funny.
Person A: Ah, but he's not a true Scotsman. He's a false one.

Let us define what a Jedi is.

A Jedi is a person who belong to the Jedi Order, who follow the Jedi Code, who state that 2+2=5 when the Jedi Council says so. A Jedi would be one who accept the wisdom of the council, and do what the council says. A Jedi must get the title from the Council. Most of all, a Jedi states to everyone, "I am a JEDI!" Jolee is not a Jedi, true or not...The Council allowed Jolee to give up his title. Hence, how could he be Jedi? Only if you fall to the DS and try to convice Jolee to bow down to the Sith does Jolee take up the mantel of Jedi, but only because he sees it as the lesser of two evils.

Also, if you say that Jolee is a Light Sider and therefore, is a Jedi...you fail to realize that there are other orders of Force Users that are also Light Sided, and believe in the exact same things you claim that a "true Jedi" would do. The "Zheison Sha" is one that comes to mind. There are little data about them, but they love helping out innocents and getting people to surivie. Heh, I would wonder what if Jolee had enough movivation to create a "Jolee Academcy" that allows him to preach his ideology to Force Users?

I'm under the conviction that the reason Jolee and Kreia is both given Grey alignment is due to laziness as well as to make a point. They both are very complex characters with ambiguious morality. Rather than having the Developers actually interfere and claim who is "good" and who is "bad", the Developers placed in Grey as a compromise, as well as allow players to make the final desicion. This is very important for Kreia, but may play a role with Jolee as well...While I may find him admirable in some circumstances, he may be disgusting as well.

Jolee would let an entire tribe suffer...because it was run by a dictator who wants the tribe to be enslaved. Well, Jolee. Why in the world did you intervene and smuggle in goods to stop a dictator and help a nation in the first place? Surely, the leader knows what his population wants, and surely, you shouldn't have wasted your time?

Jolee jokes about how his fellow Padawan was brutally murdered by carrying out the will of the Force, and despite the Council's wishes, taught his wife the very weapons that was used to kill off many Jedi (Despite how ignorant and stupid the Council is...most of what the Council has said was proven correct [Threat from the Unknown Regions, Jolee's Wife Not Ready, Exile using Force Bonds]).

Speaking of which, the training of his wife...the giving of knowledge, doing what he wants without the consquences? Prehaps Jolee realizes the power of "echoes", and that he was responsible for all the bad that his wife and his actions has caused. Prehaps, he does LS actions, but the DS effects cause him to remain in balance.
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Old 12-28-2006, 09:05 PM   #61
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Actually, Jolee also strongly objects to his old friend Sunry murdering a Sith, even though doing so and then covering it up is in the best interests of the Republic. It's Sunry who forces the player's hand, not Jolee, who actually wants to expose the whole sordid affair. When Jolee doesn't do anything, it's because it's the player's choice as appointed investigator, not Jolee's.

Besides, you could make that argument for any of the other characters during any other part of the game, especially when Juhani and Bastila watch you steal the wraid plate from a widowed woman with no money and two children on Tattooine. Oh sure, they moan about it, but they do nothing at all. And they are supposed to be LS jedi to Jolee's grey?
You misunderstand my point; Jolee isn't grey by philosphy, I said before that he recognises the difference between light and dark and doesn't hold them as equal, he's very much a light sider at heart. But by the time you meet him he's become jaded, and doesn't always fight for what he believes to be right. Jolee disagrees with what Sunry did, but if he had been his arbiter and not Revan, what would he have seen as the right thing to do? I don't think even he knew.

As for Bastila and Juhani doing squat about a dark side Revan, well we all know it's a game mechanic thing. Makes me wonder why there wasn't more situations where your allys try to step in and stop you, like Carth did on Taris several times. You can't draw comparisons on his lack of action in these cases, but he still seems pretty apathetic when they happen anyways. Atleast Bastila and Juhani bitch you out a little.

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I disagree totally. Jolee did what he did exactly because he worried about the consequences if he did not act. Besides, how can you blame him for that and claim apathy on his part at the same time? Sitting around worrying for ages about the possible consequences of what could happen is apathy. And that's exactly what the jedi did during the Mandalorian Wars. You could argue that there was cause, but then if Revan had not acted anyway, all that caution would have been moot, since the Republic would have fallen.
To clarify; I'm not accusing the young Jolee of being apathetic, obviously he was very hands on in those days. That didn't come until much later. I never said that Jolee smuggling food in was wrong, only that he disregarded the council of more experienced and wiser Jedi than himself to offer an immediate solution, in spite of potential consequences.

This act really spoke of Jolee's character; a young man who wasn't willing to compromise his morals for the sake of bearucarcy. What I find interesting is that you defend this one reckless act he did for the sake of helping, and then defend his decision to let the Wookiees go oppressed and enslaved by their own leader because he didn't want to get involved. The two delimna's are startling similar, with a very different reaction from Jolee.

And on a side note, you can't really argue that the Republic would've fallen for sure if not for Revan's intervening. Sure lot's of people claimed the Republic was on the verge of loosing, but those same people also said that the Sith War was even more brutal and devestating than the Manadalorians, and the Republic still stood. You can't really say what would've happened for sure if not for Revan.

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So he should have saved the wookiees in spite of the wookiees doing nothing to help themselves? Sure, Jolee cares about the wookiees, but he is no god, and he knows it too. If Jolee had solves all the problems for the wookiees, he would have become their all-fatherly lord protector, which is basically the same as a god. That's just the sort of thing Jolee insists on not being. He may be a jedi, but that doesn't make him a god, nor should it. Being more powerful does not make his opinion more right than anyone else's, and he has no right to determine the course of evolution for the wookiees. Jolee knows and accepts this. So why did he stay on Kashyyyk so long? Because it was the wookiees' choice to make, not his, and once they do - for better or worse - Jolee leaves immediately. He also helps resolve the matter either way. And note that it's not Revan's choice either - Revan is forced by Chuundar and must they help or oppose him, i.e., the wookiees' decision, not Revan's or Jolee's.
That I can answer easily: should Jolee have saved the Wookiees in spite of them appointing their own corrupt leader? A resounding yes. A Jedi who follows the code and the spirit of the light side wouldn't have even had to question it. They were in need of help, and he was in a position to do so, and he chose not to. No matter what his reasons Jolee's lack of action is what really makes him a grey Jedi.
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Old 12-29-2006, 03:23 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Master Kavar
You misunderstand my point; Jolee isn't grey by philosphy, I said before that he recognises the difference between light and dark and doesn't hold them as equal, he's very much a light sider at heart. But by the time you meet him he's become jaded, and doesn't always fight for what he believes to be right. Jolee disagrees with what Sunry did, but if he had been his arbiter and not Revan, what would he have seen as the right thing to do? I don't think even he knew.
You said it yourself and Jolee says it himself. He disagrees with what Sunry did and believed that the right thing to do was to let the Selkath court know that Sunry murdered Elassa (spelling?) and let them deal with his crime how they see fit. It's pretty clear what he would have done if he was in charge.

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Originally Posted by Master Kavar
As for Bastila and Juhani doing squat about a dark side Revan, well we all know it's a game mechanic thing. Makes me wonder why there wasn't more situations where your allys try to step in and stop you, like Carth did on Taris several times. You can't draw comparisons on his lack of action in these cases, but he still seems pretty apathetic when they happen anyways. Atleast Bastila and Juhani bitch you out a little.
What? You say that we all know it's a game mechanic thing as to why Bastila and Juhani don't do squat about DS Revan, yet you wonder why there wasn't more situations where your allys try to step in and stop you, like Carth did on Taris several times. Huh? Didn't you answer your own question? Game mechanics?

I don't think so. Even you agree that they could've done more 'Carth on Taris' like situations, so I don't see how you concluded that game mechanics is the reason. And Jolee actually doesn't approve of DS Revan's actions, but instead of bitching and giving lectures, he uses sarcasm instead, because well...it's Jolee.

He says stuff like: "You must be proud of yourself, outwitting her like that" and "Nice. Real nice, maybe we can find some tach's legs to rip off." It goes something like that anyway.

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Originally Posted by Master Kavar
That I can answer easily: should Jolee have saved the Wookiees in spite of them appointing their own corrupt leader? A resounding yes. A Jedi who follows the code and the spirit of the light side wouldn't have even had to question it. They were in need of help, and he was in a position to do so, and he chose not to. No matter what his reasons Jolee's lack of action is what really makes him a grey Jedi.
Then so is the Jedi Council. The Republic was in need of help, and the Jedi Council was in a position to do so, but they chose not to act. The Jedi Council's lack of action makes them grey Jedi too, according to your logic.


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Old 12-29-2006, 07:20 AM   #63
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You said it yourself and Jolee says it himself. He disagrees with what Sunry did and believed that the right thing to do was to let the Selkath court know that Sunry murdered Elassa (spelling?) and let them deal with his crime how they see fit. It's pretty clear what he would have done if he was in charge.
Jolee disagreed with what Sunry did, but I don't think that's indicative of what his response would've been. The most he says about it is "I'm a Jedi Sunry, what do you expect me to do?" and then doesn't voice any opinion one way or another. Jolee seems understandably upset regardless of the out come of the trial, and doesn't believe that justice has been served. But then this is one time in the game where the moral lines really do become grey.

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What? You say that we all know it's a game mechanic thing as to why Bastila and Juhani don't do squat about DS Revan, yet you wonder why there wasn't more situations where your allys try to step in and stop you, like Carth did on Taris several times. Huh? Didn't you answer your own question? Game mechanics?

I don't think so. Even you agree that they could've done more 'Carth on Taris' like situations, so I don't see how you concluded that game mechanics is the reason. And Jolee actually doesn't approve of DS Revan's actions, but instead of bitching and giving lectures, he uses sarcasm instead, because well...it's Jolee.
I stick to the explination that it was a matter of game mechanics and not total apathy on the sake of your allies; after all if Carth is the only one "light sided" enough to take a stand against Revan's wrong-doings, why would he suddenly stop interfering with you after leaving Taris? The more likely answer is that Taris had the longest production time, and had that much more polish to it.

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Then so is the Jedi Council. The Republic was in need of help, and the Jedi Council was in a position to do so, but they chose not to act. The Jedi Council's lack of action makes them grey Jedi too, according to your logic.
True, but only because I used the wrong words in making my arguments. :P What I should have said is that Jolee is grey because he was in a position to help, but didn't do so because he didn't care. He had decided they had brought the consequences on themselves, and that they should have to deal with it themselves.

The Jedi Council was in a similar position to assist the Republic, but chose not to at the time because they had felt a greater threat on the horizon, not because they didn't feel like bailing the Republic out of trouble. You can argue the Jedi Council's decision was made with poor judgement, but not because they didn't think it was their problem to intervene like Jolee did.
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Old 12-29-2006, 08:56 PM   #64
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Jolee disagreed with what Sunry did, but I don't think that's indicative of what his response would've been. The most he says about it is "I'm a Jedi Sunry, what do you expect me to do?" and then doesn't voice any opinion one way or another. Jolee seems understandably upset regardless of the out come of the trial, and doesn't believe that justice has been served. But then this is one time in the game where the moral lines really do become grey.
No, he does say more than that. Don't ask me what exactly he says because it's been a while since I've last played KotOR, but if you find the proof that Sunry murdered the Sith woman before the trial, if you tell Sunry you know for sure that he murdered her and if you say to him that you're not going to tell the Selkath court the truth and try to get him off the hook, Jolee will say he doesn't approve of it and believes that the Selkath court should know that it was Sunry who killed the Sith woman. So, he's made up his mind about that, but what he was unsure about was what punishment Sunry should receive.

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Originally Posted by Master Kavar
I stick to the explination that it was a matter of game mechanics and not total apathy on the sake of your allies; after all if Carth is the only one "light sided" enough to take a stand against Revan's wrong-doings, why would he suddenly stop interfering with you after leaving Taris? The more likely answer is that Taris had the longest production time, and had that much more polish to it.
Well, it's hard to argue against that. I agree with you.

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True, but only because I used the wrong words in making my arguments. :P What I should have said is that Jolee is grey because he was in a position to help, but didn't do so because he didn't care. He had decided they had brought the consequences on themselves, and that they should have to deal with it themselves.
Well, I agree with him, and to me, that's how a Jedi should be. Why help someone who brought the consequences on themselves? The Jedi shouldn't poke their noses in everyones business. It was Wookiee business.

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Originally Posted by Master Kavar
The Jedi Council was in a similar position to assist the Republic, but chose not to at the time because they had felt a greater threat on the horizon, not because they didn't feel like bailing the Republic out of trouble. You can argue the Jedi Council's decision was made with poor judgement, but not because they didn't think it was their problem to intervene like Jolee did.
I can also argue that the Jedi Council didn't care, because they didn't act. I personally think that the 'we did not act because there's a greater threat' is no excuse. So what? Why would that stop them from helping the Republic against the Mandalorians?


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