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Old 12-29-2006, 06:51 PM   #1
Maxstate
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Critical bug

Yawing is back.

Not just that, there's a new bug to abuse out there too. Jackbaldy showed it to me today and I was just perplexed at how well it worked.

How to reproduce:
Start a combo while your opponent is on your left or right hand side, your attacks will hit his body immediately with only SPLIT SECOND transition animation lengths. Enabling you to hit him lightning fast. I've counted up to 3 strikes per second.

I can't reach the bugtracker right now so I was hoping it could also go here.

I didn't use any other threads because this is a serious bug that needs more attention than most others, it practically ruins dueling gameplay..

Can anyone please check this out?

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Old 12-29-2006, 06:53 PM   #2
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I tend to disagree that it is a bug, if Razor had the time to view it I am pretty sure he would agree with me. And no, the 3 strikes per second is Juyo.
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Old 12-29-2006, 07:00 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackBaldy
I tend to disagree that it is a bug, if Razor had the time to view it I am pretty sure he would agree with me. And no, the 3 strikes per second is Juyo.
Ofcourse YOU disagree, you're the only one who uses it and the only one who persists it's not a bug

Show some people in a duel and I'm tempted to say that they will pretty much agree that it is a full-fledged bug.

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Old 12-29-2006, 07:25 PM   #4
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That's just being short sighted and shallow. Just because I can use it well does not mean that I would automatically agree it is not a bug. That's like saying that you will automatically disagree with anyone who thinks Juyo's transitions are too fast because it is your favorite stance. Although it could be the case, not sure.... I don't have anything else to add, at least not until a developer views this and claims it as a bug.
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Old 12-29-2006, 07:26 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackBaldy
That's just being short sighted and shallow. Just because I can use it well does not mean that I would automatically agree it is not a bug. That's like saying that you will automatically disagree with anyone who thinks Juyo's transitions are too fast because it is your favorite stance. Although it could be the case, not sure.... I don't have anything else to add, at least not until a developer views this and claims it as a bug.
I have already admitted that Juyo's transitions are a slight bit overpowered, and I've also stopped using it ingame untill it gets fixed.

Not pointing fingers or anything but I wish you did the same.

I'll try to leave it at this.

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Old 12-29-2006, 07:33 PM   #6
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Max, how many cheap tricks have I done in the past and reported? 009 comes to mind. I just don't think the basis of your argument that because I use it i will automatically agree it is not a bug has anywhere to stand on.

"They're fine for me, trust me, most of these 'bugs' are ping related.
Just trust me for once you guys."

And this doesn't seem like you admitting anything, but I do recall that post that you made earlier. Anyways, I just wanted to add that little bit of information, take care.
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Old 12-29-2006, 07:38 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackBaldy
Max, how many cheap tricks have I done in the past and reported? 009 comes to mind. I just don't think the basis of your argument that because I use it i will automatically agree it is not a bug has anywhere to stand on.
And what basis does this serve for? Did I hint at you holding things back from us? Why are you trying to change the subject?
Why am I even responding to this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack
"They're fine for me, trust me, most of these 'bugs' are ping related.
Just trust me for once you guys."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max
This bug might need a little downtone, but it's only very overpowered when there are higher pings involved. But since that's mostly the case now I'd suggest the transitions just be slowed down a bit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baldy
And this doesn't seem like you admitting anything, but I do recall that post that you made earlier. Anyways, I just wanted to add that little bit of information, take care.
Heck, I did it for the lulz.

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Old 12-29-2006, 07:44 PM   #8
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"And what basis does this serve for? Did I hint at you holding things back from us? Why are you trying to change the subject?
Why am I even responding to this?"

You are basically saying that because it is cheap/exploit/bug (in your opinion) and I use it, that "of course" I disagree it is a bug. And I am explaining that I have reported many cheap things before, none that I have said is not a bug/exploit/blahblah, thus the basis of your argument simply can't stand on it's own. I'm not changing the subject, but you should consider comprehending my posts more before you decide to reply to them.

Like I said, what I quoted you on did not seem to say that the transitions are broken but an earlier post from you says they need to be slowed down a bit. A bit of flip flopping if you ask me though. If you take the quote I took on it's own, it basically is saying that they are fine, and obviously they do not seem to be which even you stated in the past.
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Old 12-29-2006, 07:58 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackBaldy
You are basically saying that because it is cheap/exploit/bug (in your opinion) and I use it, that "of course" I disagree it is a bug.
That is exactly what I'm saying.

That you have reported things in the past doesn't have anything to do with that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackBaldy
And I am explaining that I have reported many cheap things before, none that I have said is not a bug/exploit/blahblah, thus the basis of your argument simply can't stand on it's own.
First of all, you and I don't really need to say or prove anything.
I will let the people that know the saber system prove it for us.

Second, you are talking jibberish to seem smart.
Just quit the pseudo-intellectual crap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JackBaldy
I'm not changing the subject, but you should consider comprehending my posts more before you decide to reply to them.
Okay okay, lets see if I got this wrong some how:

First you claimed so:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack
That's just being short sighted and shallow. Just because I can use it well does not mean that I would automatically agree it is not a bug. That's like saying that you will automatically disagree with anyone who thinks Juyo's transitions are too fast because it is your favorite stance. Although it could be the case, not sure.... I don't have anything else to add, at least not until a developer views this and claims it as a bug.
Then after my post explaining that I HAVE admitted it IS overpowered, you saw no real way to further build or dissect on that subject.
What do you do? Well ofcourse, change it!:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack
Max, how many cheap tricks have I done in the past and reported? 009 comes to mind. I just don't think the basis of your argument that because I use it i will automatically agree it is not a bug has anywhere to stand on.
So what am I missing? You first compare us two, and tell me how I didn't want to admit Juyo was overpowered. After I say I did admit it, and quote myself, you move on and start jibba-jabbin' about how "you always report cheap tricks".

Tell me my friend, what am I failing to comprehend?
I think I'm not failing to comprehend anything, I think it's you who doesn't understand what we're talking about here.

I'll use more spaces and paragraphs so it's easier to read and digest for you in the future, you could've just asked .

--



Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack
Like I said, what I quoted you on did not seem to say that the transitions are broken but an earlier post from you says they need to be slowed down a bit.
So who fails to comprehend things here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack
A bit of flip flopping if you ask me though. If you take the quote I took on it's own, it basically is saying that they are fine, and obviously they do not seem to be which even you stated in the past.
The quote you took on, which is
Quote:
Originally Posted by Me
"They're fine for me, trust me, most of these 'bugs' are ping related.
Just trust me for once you guys."
was referring to
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackbaldy
**Makashi has some fast transitions but to a lesser extent than Juyo, may or may not need some looking into.
I was referring to Makashi. Not only were you again unable to comprehend my post, you are twisting my words and dissecting my posts as well. AND, if you notice that I said "MOST" of these bugs, not all.
I have no reason to contradict myself, man.

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Old 12-29-2006, 08:13 PM   #10
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"That is exactly what I'm saying.

That you have reported things in the past doesn't have anything to do with that."

What it means is that why if I in the past have been known to report broken things which are cheap/exploit/bugs, why would I stop now?

"First of all, you and I don't really need to say or prove anything.
I will let the people that know the saber system prove it for us.

Second, you are talking jibberish to seem smart.
Just quit the pseudo-intellectual crap. "

Well if you're going to go on a forums claiming something then you at least need to back it up otherwise it will most likely be viewed as invalid or just plain wrong. And this is how I type in the forums, much like I type in game, proper.

And apologize for making the mistake of quoting you wrong (although it isn't that much of a mistake considering the 'most of these bugs' part, which means more than one etc.). I must have overlooked Makashi. Anyways, in the Templar server you kept using Juyo and those transitions on me until I repeatedly asked for you to stop and then you finally stopped. Which is more where I was getting my assumption from than anything else.

And when I said you failed to comprehend my post, you did. There's no where in the post that changes the subject. I'm trying to defend my argument that your argument has no basis to stand on because I have never been known for the sort of behavior that doesn't report or admit cheap/exploits/bugs in the past. Anyways, you can continue to say it is a bug, and that for some reason I have changed my behavior completely opposite from what I have been known to behave like, but it means nothing until Razor or another developer who knows the saber system clarifies it.
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Old 12-29-2006, 08:28 PM   #11
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Ok, max I just learned how to do this. After learning it, I'm not entirely sure its yawing based since I think I was able to do the same thing at a distance. Whether it speeds up as you get closer needs to be tested a bit more, but I think it was the same speed at a distance. It seems both jack and sushi have know about this for a while now.

Anyways, What I think it is is a combination thats based on how the swing to swing transitions work. Since it chooses an new direction with continual attack, it the transitions go fast in certain combos. That side one you mentioned is a particularly interesting example since the transitions choose those directions after a certain button combination.

On the up side, it can be stopped with a simple parry thanks to the last changes in the parry code. The downside is, if you dont see it coming and don't parry it, it can do alot of damage and so can other combinations that appearently exist. Its kind of like the comboing in the old Killer Instinct game.

Juyo's combination on the side are definitely ALOT faster though because of the way its animation works and it needs to be fixed (ticketed already).

HOWEVER, I asked razor about the seeming speed up on these combinations and he said its not intentional and maybe a bug. He needs to see it in action to be certain though and whether or not he even WANTS it to be fixed since it is a pretty interesting side effect that may or may not be overpowered once its understood.

Btw, Jack. I also talk to razor about the default saberlockfactor and he said to bug ticket it since we all agreed it was a bad thing. We might also want to make a video of this transition thing since razor doesnt have much time at the moment.


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Old 12-29-2006, 08:35 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackBaldy

What it means is that why if I in the past have been known to report broken things which are cheap/exploit/bugs, why would I stop now?
Well I can play the naive game that you want me to play (only because I have to remain civil) that maybe you 'don't know' that this is a bug.
Then I suggest that we stop talking about this and let the professionals see if it's a bug or not. If it is, we fix it, you don't have to worry about anything, heck even you can miss something.
If it is not then I have made a fool out of myself and will withdraw from this argument.

I'll play along more; I have also reported broken things in the past, why would I stop now?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JB

Well if you're going to go on a forums claiming something then you at least need to back it up otherwise it will most likely be viewed as invalid or just plain wrong. And this is how I type in the forums, much like I type in game, proper.
Proper is using proper grammar, punctuation and spelling. Proclaiming that "my argument has no basis" has no basis in itself. You do not provide any reasons, you do not provide why nor show why, you just assume.

You post things like this all the time in what seems a desperate attempt to portray some kind of wisdom or intelligence.

You know what a pseudo-intellectual is? All hat and no cattle, all talk and no real substance. On internet boards this translates to making posts filled with long or difficult words, while the post itself contains little or no substance.
Ring a bell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JackBaldy
And apologize for making the mistake of quoting you wrong. I must have overlooked Makashi. Anyways, in the Templar server you kept using Juyo and those transitions on me until I repeatedly asked for you to stop and then you finally stopped. Which is more where I was getting my assumption from than anything else.
That is extremely false, I used Juyo when you only ONCE complained that I was abusing the transition bug. I [i]naturally[i] stepped over to a different style immediately.

Stop saying stuff that isn't true dude, I was the one asking you to stop abusing things, not vice versa.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JackBaldy
And when I said you failed to comprehend my post, you did. There's no where in the post that changes the subject.
That's what you want it to appear like, yes. But again... insert new coin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JackBaldy
I'm trying to defend my argument that your argument has no basis to stand on because I have never been known for the sort of behavior that doesn't report or admit cheap/exploits/bugs in the past.
That argument came only after your FIRST argument that I was posting this to spite you because I didn't believe you when you talked about Juyo bugs.
Need a refresh? Because I'm sick of quoting by now...

To continue, my argument was never that you displayed some type of behaviour or not. I have no argument, you started the argument, I only posted this bug in order for it to be looked in on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JackBaldy
Anyways, you can continue to say it is a bug, and that for some reason I have changed my behavior completely opposite
I have said it's a bug, but I have never really made it an argument that you have changed your personality or any stuff like that. Please quote me?

I said and quoted you on how you changed your argument within this thread from one thing to a complete and opposite other because your first argument was disproven and shot down. You'll never admit it, but people can see for themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JackBaldy
from what I have been known to behave like, but it means nothing until Razor or another developer who knows the saber system clarifies it.
Isn't that what I said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxstate
First of all, you and I don't really need to say or prove anything.
I will let the people that know the saber system prove it for us.
Could you please stop spamming this thread up with nonsense, you don't need to defend yourself anywhere. I never attacked you in the first place, I just want disclosure if this thing is a bug or not and if it is I want it fixed.

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Old 12-29-2006, 08:39 PM   #13
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Thanks, I'll make sure to have it at 0 from now on (although I had it like that when you brought it to my attention :P ).

As for the subject at hand, I just find it as another offensive action that isn't as easily attack parried/parried if caught by surprise, but it is possible and easier if you understand it more like Hoc ni stated. If I knew how to upload videos to Youtube properly I could probably upload it so that Razor can see it, or maybe Hoc ni or I can show it to him personally if he has the time.
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Old 12-29-2006, 08:39 PM   #14
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Wtf is Juyo?


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Old 12-29-2006, 08:41 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRHockney*
Ok, max I just learned how to do this. After learning it, I'm not entirely sure its yawing based since I think I was able to do the same thing at a distance. Whether it speeds up as you get closer needs to be tested a bit more, but I think it was the same speed at a distance. It seems both jack and sushi have know about this for a while now.
It's not yawing based, it is based on turning your view thusly that your saber bounces on the defender's body when certain attack combinations are made.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hocks
Anyways, What I think it is is a combination thats based on how the swing to swing transitions work. Since it chooses an new direction with continual attack, it the transitions go fast in certain combos. That side one you mentioned is a particularly interesting example since the transitions choose those directions after a certain button combination.
Alright...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hocks
On the up side, it can be stopped with a simple parry thanks to the last changes in the parry code. The downside is, if you dont see it coming and don't parry it, it can do alot of damage and so can other combinations that appearently exist. Its kind of like the comboing in the old Killer Instinct game.
It can not be stopped with a simple parry unless the attacker wants to stop it. I've tried it numerous times with Yoda and never was I able to stop it with just one parry. Since it hits so wildly on all directions the direction you have to parry in is quite random.

It's not just that you can't see it coming, it's that it can be repeated with no trouble at all and that it can be spammed and when trained, can ultimately kill any opponent without really dueling at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hocks
Juyo's combination on the side are definitely ALOT faster though because of the way its animation works and it needs to be fixed (ticketed already).
Why does everyone keep bringing Juyo up? We've ticketed Juyo, I've admitted ingame AND on the forums that itis overpowered... can you stop using Juyo as an argument? It really isn't one..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hocks
HOWEVER, I asked razor about the seeming speed up on these combinations and he said its not intentional and maybe a bug. He needs to see it in action to be certain though and whether or not he even WANTS it to be fixed since it is a pretty interesting side effect that may or may not be overpowered once its understood.
Are you talking about Juyo or Jack's bug?

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Old 12-29-2006, 08:42 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ensiform
Wtf is Juyo?
Purple stance in OJP Enhanced.

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Old 12-29-2006, 08:50 PM   #17
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"It can not be stopped with a simple parry unless the attacker wants to stop it. I've tried it numerous times with Yoda and never was I able to stop it with just one parry. Since it hits so wildly on all directions the direction you have to parry in is quite random."

That's funny, both Rache and Hoc ni (after you left and we did some minor testing) parried it. Once you parry it or attack parry it, the combo stops because of how the system works...
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Old 12-29-2006, 08:54 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackBaldy
"It can not be stopped with a simple parry unless the attacker wants to stop it. I've tried it numerous times with Yoda and never was I able to stop it with just one parry. Since it hits so wildly on all directions the direction you have to parry in is quite random."

That's funny, both Rache and Hoc ni (after you left and we did some minor testing) parried it. Once you parry it or attack parry it, the combo stops because of how the system works...
Rache went to sleep ?

How many times must I quote myself before you understand?
It can be stopped easy if the attacker wants to stop it. Like if the attacker is trying to show the defender that his attack is not as lethal as it is said to be.

The side 'combo' you use is very very erratic and wildly attacks higher, middle and lower body parts and you only have a random chance of parrying it.

When you DO parry it, you've already lost 30 DP at minimum, all there is left for the attacker is to repeat it.

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Old 12-29-2006, 08:59 PM   #19
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When I decided to stop dueling you because you kept irritating me on the subject, and just kept dueling Rache. He parried it very well. And no, I did not want to stop my combo when Hoc ni parried it, because when it is parried the combo stops because, again, how the system works. If you get parried your combo stops. Get that through your head. Maybe that is just you because you fail to parry it, but I am pretty sure if you got better at it you wouldn't be over-exploding something that isn't even a huge problem/problem.
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Old 12-29-2006, 09:01 PM   #20
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You seem to only focus on when you don't parry it instead of focusing on when you do parry it. If you don't parry it, it will be lethal, much like any transition. Is it more difficult to parry? Yes, but same can be said about many aimed shots. You know how many times you, yes you, personally parried it? Many times.
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Old 12-29-2006, 10:52 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxstate
Purple stance in OJP Enhanced.
It's actually either Tavion's or Desann's stance.


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Old 12-29-2006, 11:21 PM   #22
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Juyo as named in the game by the hud is Desann's stance.
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Old 12-29-2006, 11:32 PM   #23
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Why cant we just have it: "Red", "Blue", Yellow", "Purple", "Cyan".

The current are too confusing and kind of stupid imo.


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Old 12-29-2006, 11:32 PM   #24
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That is heavily modified by Max's animation work....

Anyway, I'm not sure what's going on here but it sounds like there might be a subtle bug involving the saber bounce code. It sounds like it's allowing sabers to attack in the same direction as the attack that was bounced.

Do you hold the same movement direction when this happens? Does it look like it's the same attack animation?


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Old 12-29-2006, 11:40 PM   #25
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Razor are you talking about how to perform combos? Depending on where you are looking the direction keys pressed differ. But generally speaking, to perform transitions you don't necessarily have to mimic the directions of the slash being performed. For example, if you are looking somewhat high, and you do D+W then just using S will give you the strike of A+W and if you do it again it will give you D+W so on and so forth. It would be easier for me to just show you in game though. Have any time now?
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Old 12-30-2006, 12:51 AM   #26
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Unfortunately, my time is really limited. I'm going to have to deal with issues when time is available.

As for your question, I mean, do you change movement directions to get this to work or can you just keep moving in the same direction the whole time?


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Old 12-30-2006, 01:22 AM   #27
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I have been doing some testing with 009 and apparently somewhere along the lines the way transitions work (How you do them) got changed. I am not exactly sure if this was intentional or not, but it did. Mind clarifying if it was an intentional change, transitions that is?
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Old 12-30-2006, 01:27 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by razorace
Unfortunately, my time is really limited. I'm going to have to deal with issues when time is available.

As for your question, I mean, do you change movement directions to get this to work or can you just keep moving in the same direction the whole time?
Depends on the transition, and it is usually not safe to just hold the direction because you would get out of range because of movement. If I knew how to properly upload Youtube videos I could probably show you better, but last time I tried that the whole screen came out black. And different combinations accomplish the same transitions sometimes, so it could be used differently depending on where you want to move/be. Also depends on where you are looking, some transitions might not actually work (movement wise) if you are not looking at the right place. Something such as this would be best viewed in game though.
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Old 12-30-2006, 04:28 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ensiform
Why cant we just have it: "Red", "Blue", Yellow", "Purple", "Cyan".

The current are too confusing and kind of stupid imo.
Finally somebody injects sense into this subject. I completely agree here.


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Old 12-30-2006, 12:32 PM   #30
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Right now in the hud the names are written specifically in color in conjunction with the stances, so I don't really see what the big deal is. Or how stupid or confusing it is, I am not seeing any of that, pretty self explanatory if you ask me.
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Old 12-30-2006, 06:56 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackBaldy
Depends on the transition, and it is usually not safe to just hold the direction because you would get out of range because of movement. If I knew how to properly upload Youtube videos I could probably show you better, but last time I tried that the whole screen came out black. And different combinations accomplish the same transitions sometimes, so it could be used differently depending on where you want to move/be. Also depends on where you are looking, some transitions might not actually work (movement wise) if you are not looking at the right place. Something such as this would be best viewed in game though.
So, basically, you don't know.


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Old 12-30-2006, 07:37 PM   #32
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I've been doing some testing, and apparently the bounce code/transition code was working normally (Like 009) until 009f (still working normally in 009f), and in between that and 009h (It is now changed in 009h) it got changed to what it is now. And what do you mean I don't know? Yes, simply put, there are in some situations where you could just hold one movement direction and hold attack and it combos after executing a combo starter. In that post I was just stating it more detailed to account for other situations etc. But like I said, I could show you better in game than with just plain text.
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Old 12-30-2006, 09:49 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackBaldy
Right now in the hud the names are written specifically in color in conjunction with the stances, so I don't really see what the big deal is. Or how stupid or confusing it is, I am not seeing any of that, pretty self explanatory if you ask me.
And those who are color-blind?


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Old 12-30-2006, 10:17 PM   #34
Lathain Valtiel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ensiform
And those who are color-blind?
Er... in fairness, the little colored bars wouldn't work for them either, and thus names are better... but frankly the names should be colors. As in, Red Blue etc.


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Old 12-30-2006, 10:24 PM   #35
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Well if you are looking at the extremes (i.e. color blind)... Either way they could just remember the order (5 stances, how hard could it be? First time I saw it I already had remembered every stances name). I guess it would not matter if it was changed to red, yellow, blue, etc. But what I am trying to say is that the change is not necessary and the way it is displayed now kind of makes it a bit more unique, especially with the new animations O.J.P. has, which don't necessarily mimic the base ones all the time.
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Old 12-30-2006, 10:45 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Lathain Valtiel
Er... in fairness, the little colored bars wouldn't work for them either, and thus names are better... but frankly the names should be colors. As in, Red Blue etc.
Right, the text color can stay but the actual text should be the color or like be like base. "Fast", "Medium", "Strong", "Akimbo", "Staff".


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Old 12-30-2006, 10:52 PM   #37
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Technically the stances aren't "fast", "medium", "strong" anymore.

While I don't agree with the whole 7 forms thing, I like style naming as is. If it makes people feel better about the mod, it's fine with me.


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Old 12-30-2006, 11:42 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by razorace
Technically the stances aren't "fast", "medium", "strong" anymore.

While I don't agree with the whole 7 forms thing, I like style naming as is. If it makes people feel better about the mod, it's fine with me.
I would have to agree with you Razor.
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