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Old 01-07-2007, 05:10 PM   #1
SilentScope001
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Uber-Awesome K3 Storyline!

Alright. I seen some people make a K3 story. So, I guess, I'll make one. It will be sparse, because, well, I don't want to spoil anyone in case what I say actaully get used.

X Years after the events of TSL...

You are now a Jedi Padawan in the brand-new Jedi Order, formed by...you guess it, the "true Jedi". You are very happy, and totally ignorat of the True Sith. Your main goal is to become a happy little Jedi Knight. You are now have to go through some challenges to prove your worthiness as a Jedi Knight. The first challenge is...a written quiz about the history of the Republic, covering the events of K1 and TSL. You could cheat on this quiz (not gaining DS or LS Points), and get the default Revan and Exile (which happens to be canonical).

After that, you meet up with one of the members of the Jedi Council...Handmaiden (Male) or Disciple (Female). [Yes, Disciple is an idiot and I...do not like him. Still, The Exile does, and if the developers are given a second chance, they...could fix Disciple, like they fixed Malak]. Here, you get to see the Exile's echoes. If The Exile is LS, then Disciple/Handmaiden are very nice, kind and gentle people who care for your well-being. Not at all cynical bastards like Vrook and Atris.

If The Exile is DS, Handmaiden/Disciple will becoming the equilvaint of Atris and Vrook, being very mean, harsh, and uncaring for the Jedi. Not necersially Dark Sided...but not very Light Sided either, forgetting the qualities of mercy and justice.

Regardless, Handmadien/Disciple, as an NPC, teaches you as an player...and then, the True Sith attack. Basically, you flee the Jedi Academy, along with saving some of your buddies (who will form your Party). Would also be nice if the Handmadien/Disciple also joins your party as well, and continues to teach your character as a Padawn, like Kreia did. You find the Ebon Hawk, left by The Exile, and board it...

So, the Jedi are destroyed. Again. The True Sith is now getting ready to finally attack, as you hear reports of the Sith armada invading Republic space...Oh noes! You and your party board some nearby planet and rest, let call this Planet A, where they would rest, while dealing with the impending threat of True Sith invasion.

Soon, on Planet A, you see a treasure trove of Sith Holocrons. These Holocrons are remeants of the True Sith that once taken over these planets. They also act as the "McGuffin". Wheter revealing about where Revan or the Exile is located, or stating exactly where the capital of the True Sith is...these Holocrons are key. Your mentor orders you to find these holcorons, and use this knowledge to find the True Sith.

(After you learn something from the holcoron, you could then decide to attack and destroy the Holocron for LS points, or keep the holocron alive to learn some secrets, gaining DS points and making you more powerful in the Force. You could also secretly be recurited by the Holocrons, who promise you infinite power if you ally with the True Sith...In other words, you act as a double agent, betraying your mentor.)

You travel to 4 different planets, some being laid beseiged by the True Sith. You get to decide how you want to gain the holocrons...either by helping the Republic battle the True Sith...or secretly work with the True Sith to gain access to the Holocrons. Your mentor would be quite upset, but just tell them that you are doing it for the greater good, and you'll just deal with some -INF-.

Meanwhile, there is a subquest. Neither you nor the rest of the galaxy, knows the fate of Revan and The Exile. You get to gather data and clues from each of the holocrons (as you gather clues from the Jedi Masters), before learning the truth in deep True Sith space.

Once you find the Holocrons, you travel to the Unknown Regions, in Sith space, and battle the True Sith. There, you realize what happened to Revan and The Exile. The True Sith waited until after the Jedi Civil War to prepare an attack, but Revan went in and caused a civil war to break the Sith Empire up. After all, civil wars is the way of the Sith. Revan thought that once the True Sith would destroy themselves, then Revan would have saved the galaxy. The Exile follows Revan and causes a civil war as well. Again, they fell to the Dark Side, so that the True Sith could destroy themselves...

But there was a problem. In Sith belief, civil wars allow for the creation of those who are quite powerful indeed. Those who are the strongest...well..win. Guess who were the strongest? Revan and Exile, of course! Of course, the True Sith are gone, so everything's fine, right?

Wrong. Because Revan doesn't want this galaxy to suffer again. Revan knows that the Republic is weak, and realizes that after both Revan and the Exile dies and becomes Force Ghosts, and if ANOTHER threat from the Unknown Regions decides to go and attack the Republic (Yuzzhon Vong anyone?)...the Republic...um...goes squishy (Hey, you can't except me to believe that the True Sith is the only threat out there!). So, Revan and Exile, after defeating the True Sith and taking them over, decides to go and attack the Republic, to take that over, and destroy it. Then a new stable True Sith Empire will be formed, that will protect the Galaxy from the True Sith and from other enemies out there. Revan and Exile are so...so...smart. (And of course, so...so...dumb. The Republic is the only thing that makes the galaxy good. Destroy the Republic and form a tyranny, and um...I'd rather just get killed by the True Sith, thank you very much!)

Prehaps the Exile may even evolve to become Darth Nihlius, being a subtle Force User destroyer much like him. Maybe even wearing the same...or a different mask.

Talking to Exile and Revan would be simple. You say something. Revan and Exile nods silently, as if pondering the wisdom of your words. Then you say something else. If Exile becomes neo-Darth Nihilus, then Exile chants some Sith language to make it interesting. Or, you could have both Revan and Exile chant that Sith language, after all, they did became True Sith. But, erm, don't. The Sith langauge is pretty annoying, and I rather have a silent Exile and Revan, because then, you can fill in the details of what Revan and Exile were thinking.

LS Ending: So, there you go. 2 Final bosses, Revan and Exile. If you set them to be LS, you could redeem them (by defeating the snot out of them).

If, say, one is redeemed and the other one is not, you could see a cutscene (or a player-contorlled battle) of the fight between the redeemed Sith Lord and the corrupted Sith Lord. Redeemed one always loses, but that is for gameplay reasons, so that you can go in and slay the corrupted Sith Lord. (If you do defeat the corrupted Sith Lord, well, the Corrupted Sith Lord is weaker for the final battle, and the Redeemed one lives...) Once the True Sith's leaders are finally destroyed, then the Sith Order finally devolves itself into a really destructive civil war...you win! Watch as you and your mentor flies away, and rebuild the Jedi Order, safe from the True Sith as well as the Real Enemy.

DS Ending: You admire the True Sith, and how they are grand. Somehow, you get tempted by ultimate power, and decide that, well Revan and Exile are both stupid. You decide then to kill them in order to take over the True Sith Empire for yourself, and then take over the galaxy! Your mentor must be mighty angry and may attack you...unless you are able to convert him/her to the Dark Side, and promise this person great power. (It's easier to convert your mentor to the Dark Side when The Exile is set to Dark Sided, assuming the mentor is Handmandien/Disciple)

Same thing as in LS Ending, except now you hold the regins of an Empire, and threatens the Republic. Since the KOTOR triolgy has ended, we can just assume that the True Sith Empire finally take over the galaxy to save it. Heh, you could even "redeem" a LS Exile/Revan, only to use him/her as a canon fooder to attack the other Exile/Revan. Manlipuation to the extreme. Either that, or convert a DS Exile/Revan to accept you as your Master, and then command him to weaken the other person in the duo.

(Extra Content: I feel I should add this in. Prehaps, a Sith Holocron may be able to reveal to you the truth...the True Sith realizes that there are two powerful Force Users, Revan and Exile, and believed them to be the 'sith'rai' or the one who would destroy the Sith, but make them stronger, and are "perfect" beings. The True Sith actually manlipuated Revan, causing him to fall by causing the Mandalorain Wars to lure Revan to Malachor V and then presenting to Revan evidence of their existance. Revan, scared of the True Sith, decided to do whatever it takes to destroy the True Sith, and fell to the DS. [After all, the road to Hell is paved by good attentions.] The Exile also does the same, possibly by being led down this path by Kreia who was in chaoots with the True Sith, and maybe a true Sith herself. These Sith knew that Revan and Exile would take over the Sith Empire, and once they do so, lead the Sith to victory and unlimited power by smashing the Republic! They were okay with the possiblity that they may very well be killed by The Exile and Revan's schemes, since they were giving themselves up to protect the True Sith and aid it for the long run. They also knew that they can put their essence in holocrons, and therefore, techincally, don't really "die", as they are able to manlipuate future Force Users. For one hand, this could be good, but on the other hand, this would upset some fans of Revan and it does close up some holes, so I placed this as Extra Content, and bet it would likely be on the cutting floor.

Also, something else I did not add...why in the world would this Jedi Knight be able to destroy Exile and Revan? Revan is a great Jedi Knight and the Exile is a Wound in The Force. I could basically say that the person is of True Sith blood, and because of that, has the strength necessary to stop them. Also, there could be the "will-breaking" mini-game of the Sion battle as well...try to convice Revan and Exile that they are weak, and well, they actually become weak!) Other than that, I have no good ideas, but Obisdan can suprise us.
---
Please rate this from 0-10. I know it isn't really as good as the others, but it works. One of the flaws is the inclusion of Revan and Exile in strong character roles, as well as turning them into villains. Another big flaw is the inclusion of Disciple in the canonical game. I bet very much so that Obisidan will create a story that would blow my story out of the water.

Still, it is an attempt to made sense of the True Sith.
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Old 01-07-2007, 07:33 PM   #2
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It sounds not bad. But I can't really comment on your story, because it's too vague. There are not enough details, and some of your ideas sound a lot like mine and Jediphile's, which you can find I've summarized here:

http://forums.obsidianent.com/index....dpost&p=732836

and

http://forums.obsidianent.com/index....dpost&p=733472

But because it's you, who I respect as a poster on this forum, and it's better than many of the half assed KotOR III stories I've read, I'd give it a 8/10.


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Old 01-07-2007, 07:40 PM   #3
Anakin Skywalker
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Oh Architect, you can't decide by the poster, but rather the enrichment of the post.... and I'd say it enriched enough for someone to start making the game... good job SilentScope... perhaps you and Bioware could merge together to form K3
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Old 01-08-2007, 02:15 AM   #4
Diego Varen
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Originally Posted by Anakin Skywalker
Oh Architect, you can't decide by the poster, but rather the enrichment of the post.... and I'd say it enriched enough for someone to start making the game... good job SilentScope... perhaps you and Bioware could merge together to form K3
What about Obsidian? Anyway good story as both of the above posters have said. At least, for some reason, it's better than that Bounty Hunter story, no offense to the writer.
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Old 01-08-2007, 05:19 AM   #5
Anakin Skywalker
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Obsidian? Obsidian doesn't make very good KotOR's, no offense to them, but I mean they released K2 out early, and had to cut a lot of things...
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Old 01-08-2007, 06:26 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anakin Skywalker
Obsidian? Obsidian doesn't make very good KotOR's, no offense to them, but I mean they released K2 out early, and had to cut a lot of things...
Umm...WTF? Obsidian doesn't make very good KotOR's? That is wrong, for two reasons:

a) That is not a fact and is your opinion only
b) They've only made one KotOR

It's LA's fault that the ending was cut to bits, not Obsidians, and if Obsidian completed the plot as originally intended by Avellone, IMO, it would have been much better than KotOR. I still think it's better than KotOR anyway, even the way it ended up. BioWare will not make another KotOR game ever again.

And nice avatar Pottsie. Also, where it says 'Registered user' just above my avatar, yours says 'The Lord of Pain'. How were you able to change it?

So this thread won't go off-topic, you need 1000 posts there Architect then the option becomes available to you... just make them constructive ones. To everyone else, I will axe any posts attempting to answer about custom titles in this thread. -RH


"Here is my final point. About drugs, about alcohol, about pornography and smoking and everything else. What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I ****, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?"

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Last edited by RedHawke; 01-08-2007 at 08:55 AM.
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Old 01-08-2007, 12:06 PM   #7
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Doesn't sound bad. I would be disappointed if it was actually like that in the game, i have to admit.

First of all, please explain the PC's special connection to the force that makes him/her important in a story like that, and enables him to defeat both Revan and the Exile who definitly count to the strongest Jedi/Sith of their era.
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Old 01-08-2007, 12:25 PM   #8
SilentScope001
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Quote:
good job SilentScope... perhaps you and Bioware could merge together to form K3
Actually I agree with The Architect, Obisidan is a really good developer, with a really good storyline. Again, I trust in their wisdom and hope they make a story that blow this out of the water. But if Obsidian do ask me to merge, surely, I'll merge.

Quote:
It sounds not bad. But I can't really comment on your story, because it's too vague. There are not enough details, and some of your ideas sound a lot like mine and Jediphile's, which you can find I've summarized here:
Hm...I think I may have read your post before, it looks very familar. I dislike having Exile turn into Darth Nihlius, especially so that the wound can be closed...because it defeats Kreia's teachings. Kreia tried to save The Exile from The Force, trying to get the Exile to embrace her "Wound" status and not to attack it, and instead, Kreia failed, undone by her very student who cares little...Not only that, but then how can you kill Darth Nihlius "reborn"? According to K2, The Exile was the only person that can slaughter the man and save the galaxy, since The Exile is a wound in the Force. If The Exile is Darth Nihlius, then how can you stop him? Come up with any way to defeat him, and you'll see that you made Darth Nihlius becomes much more weaker...

It is sort of tragic of having Revan turn The Exile into Darth Nihlius...and also a wiping of all that was done in K2. Note, however, that they did the exact same thing in K2, no matter what happens in K1, in K2, Revan flees Republic Space. So, such an idea is very, very possible. I would not be suprised if developers use this method.

There should be other ways, however (and I'll think of some other ideas). Prehaps The Exile should just be a great admiral, like that Darth Malak's admiral on the Leviviatan that you kill. The Exile uses his/her wound status to grow more powerful to fight via the Force, prehaps even sucking The Force from other people (but never growing suck force poewr to the extent of Nihlius), and uses his/her forces to help out Revan. I may be grasping out at straws here.

Other than that, it looks quite familar to my story, so I may have to add some changes to make it different.

The reason I did not put in details is because I know that details are interchangable. It does not matter if you go to Planet #424 or Planet#24A in search of a "McGuffin"...you just go there to search for the McGuffin. Also, this is just a rough outline, I may seek of posting something more fuller in the fanfic section. I just posted here to see if people would like it. (An idea I have is to have the player start in either the Jedi or the Sith Academcy depending on the ending to K2, that way, The Exile has a greater effect on the game.)

Quote:
Doesn't sound bad. I would be disappointed if it was actually like that in the game, i have to admit.
So would I.

Quote:
First of all, please explain the PC's special connection to the force that makes him/her important in a story like that, and enables him to defeat both Revan and the Exile who definitly count to the strongest Jedi/Sith of their era.
Weakest part of the story, and by far, where most of the developers' time energy will be. Having the PC be True Sith blood is the way I could see it, though it still may not do it...

And another idea is to have Revan and Exile be "weakened" by some external force, say, being distracted. That way, Revan and Exile is not at their "full potential", and therefore can be defeated quite easily. (It also sastifies fanboys of both Revan and Exile...with Revan and Exile already weakened by the distraction, it explains away why Revan and Exile are easy bosses, and still make Revan and Exile look cool.) Hm...I wonder about Force Bond murdering here...killing off friends and allies of Revan and Exile to make them weaker...

Let be quite honest here. Nobody here ever, ever predicted The Exile would be a Wound in the Force before K2 came out. So, I think the reason the PC would defeat Revan and Exile is due to some hidden Obisidan secret that will be revealed when the game comes out.
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Old 02-09-2007, 04:22 AM   #9
ZippyFreak
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Hey Guys, newbie here, so you dont need to pay tooooo much attention to me.
(only Joking, ;-) ...PAY ATTENTION TO ME OR I WILL WREAK HAVOC WITH MY FORCE LIGHTNING!! MWAHAAH!)

Bin reading the forums for a couple of weeks now must say likin some of the ideas that come outta here, awesomE.... n e way on topic.

i quite like the idea of following holocrons, and deciding wether to destroy them or use them to give yourself more power, am not sure about having Revan and Exile as bosses due to points made already (i.e the voices, the fact they are sposed to be Uber-Powerful), though to be honest i dont think i could come up with a better way of getting them into the story, so im gonna keep quiet about that. :-)

(note: maybe in the attempted disruption of the Sith he gets captured and imprisoned and nearthe end of the game you find this out and have to go rescue him?)

i do like the idea of the Padawan and the exam to establish the gender/allignment of Exile and revan. very good.

and i like the idea that the 'true sith' have been waiting for the republic to be weakend, and then revan goes in and causes havoc by starting another civil war and instead of saving the republic it backfires and some super powerful dude arises. explains quite a bit.
A)why the sith have waited so long
B) why revan went and where he's bin/what he's bin doing.
C) why he left everyone behind (cos of the danger)
D) why the true sith are suddenly so much more a threat now (by the new super sith dude ariving at power and making the decision to attack)

right that me done for now, thanks for all the good reading guys, hopefully this is a vaguely decent first post.

Peace!
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Old 02-09-2007, 07:54 AM   #10
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Those are good questions ZippyFreak.
I guess I should also make some comments about the possible storyline of Kotor III. It seems that many people do arrive at the idea that Revan went into the Unknown Regions alone because he knew the only way to defeat the True Sith is to cause a Civil war among them. A good thought no doubt and quiet possibly the way Obsidian is going to write a new storyline if they are going to make the new game which also from a marketing strategy from Lucasarts simply should happen.
Now about the opinion that Obsidian doesn't make a good Kotor game, well, you could I guess comment on it when they probably make another space RPG. Yes, I have read the PC Powerplay which contains a report about Obsidian making an Alien RPG which according to PC Powerplay should come out in 2009. Now that's about the time they should get to make a proper game. Sega is going to give them the time which Lucasarts fails to do. Talk about proper management I suppose.

Okay, let's get back to your questions. Why didn't the True Sith attack earlier? I think you could make different assumptions to this.
Were they warring among themselves even before Revan arrived? Were they unaware of the Republics existance? Maybe they didn't have the technology available for let's say hyperspace travel?
But why would Revan then go to the Unknown regions if they are not an immidiate threat to the Republic? And why go alone? To me, there is clearly someone or something which changed something out there because for all we know the mandalorian wars were started by the True Sith, they manipulated the mandalorians or more likely Mandalore himself to invade the republic. This can be concluded by the words of both Canderous in Kotor I and Carth in Kotor II.
Other things we know about the True Sith is that the Sith is a belief and it's empire rules elsewhere, Revan went of to fight it. Kreia's last words.
Now how would you fight a belief? Yes, the easiest way is probably by allowing yourself to succumb to that belief and exploiting it.

However, to not completely let the storyline of Kotor II just flow away I think there might be more to it then that. There are the unanswered questions as to why the Ebon Hawk returned to republic space with a Sith vessel in pursuit. I think perhaps the Sith assassins, the dark jedi and the sith lords we face from Kotor II should have come from somewhere to. Okay, we could assume that as a result of the wound in the force caused by the destruction of Malachor V which was "carried" by the Exile who had to cut herself of from the force in order to survive, caused to spawn two powerful Sith lords (Darth Sion and Nihilus) but where did they get their army? Were these assassins former Dark jedi who followed Revan? Unlikely IMO. Were they also from the unknown regions?
Quiet possibly IMO. I think it would make sense to follow the Ebon Hawk to republic space. And how would Sion know of the Exile? How would Kreia know that the Exile is on board the Harbinger?
What if Revan may have something to do with the Shadow War, or is there maybe a third person / party involved who sees the Exile as a threat?

Quiet a long post but I guess a good way for us to think about possible storylines for Kotor III.
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Old 02-09-2007, 11:42 AM   #11
SilentScope001
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The civil war idea has been thrown around a lot, and Chris Avollene has said that is one way Obisidan will go about doing it. It looks to be the way, altough I hope the makers of K3 will suprise us.

Quote:
A)why the sith have waited so long
"Well, we were ready to strike against the Republic when...um...we decided to play Pazzak and read the Ziost Playboy maganize. For 800 years. We kinda lost track of time."

More likely, the Sith are run by bastards who realize that they are very, very weak after they got defeated in the Great Hyperspace War. They decide to try and make themselves grow strong (by the ritutalist civil wars that always occur), while at the same time weaken the Republic (via the many wars they secretly cause) so that by the time the Sith are indeed very strong, the Republic would be so weak that the Sith can wipe them off the face of the Galaxy and gain revenge for their defeat in the Great Hyperspace War.

A personal theory I have is that the True Sith are in fact imprisoned in holocrons, but, um...judging from all the talk of an Empire, I doubt that theory would come true. Still, that is where I got the idea of learning from/destroying the holocrons that hold knowledge of the True Sith. If the True Sith are imprisonsed in holocrons, it would explain another reason why they have not struck, nobody found their holocrons yet.


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Old 02-09-2007, 05:10 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by SilentScope001
I dislike having Exile turn into Darth Nihlius, especially so that the wound can be closed...because it defeats Kreia's teachings. Kreia tried to save The Exile from The Force, trying to get the Exile to embrace her "Wound" status and not to attack it, and instead, Kreia failed, undone by her very student who cares little...
I don't see why Exile becoming a new Nihilus would undo Kreia's teachings. Don't mistake Kreia's desire to defy and destroy the WILL of the force with a desire to destroy the force itself.

I mean, just note this passage...

Kreia (on Nihilus): "And when the Jedi are dead, her master will feed on the galaxy, the Republic, and eventually, consume the Sith as well. There is no future in the empty galaxy he sees. And that is why he must be stopped on Onderon. The breach must be sealed, before his power grows beyond what even we can stop.There is no future in the empty galaxy he sees. "

Since the exile has a similar power, being a wound like Nihilus, it would actually seem that Kreia wants the exile's wound sealed as well. She basically says as much to the Disciple herself...

Kreia: {Steps forward, looking at holograms}"What did you see in the web of worlds that have died? What did you see when you saw it through the Force?"

Disciple: {Whispers in awe, turns back to the holographic worlds}"I see the death of the galaxy. Of life."

Disciple: {Go for broke, it's like the Disciple just discovered the apocalypse is going to happen tomorrow - quiet, awed, and horrified}"At first... I thought it was just conquest, but it's more terrible than that. It's an echo, spreading outwards, killing everything."

Disciple: {Still quiet, but incredulous}"It's not possible."

Kreia: {Smiles}"You are a wasted pawn of the Republic, young one. You could have been so much more, even with your wide-eyed innocence, your naÔve love for others. Now you understand the magnitude of what is being done."

Disciple: {Quietly, beat at the last sentence}"I know you - not even the markings of the dark side can hide it. Why have you done this?"

Kreia: {Scoffs}"I? Do you think I seek the death of all living things? There is no victory in such things. I do not want to win our war like this, little Jedi. When I win, I wish it to be because I was right, my teachings true."

Disciple: {Quietly}"How long have you been here, among us?"

Kreia: "You know the truth. I have always been here, watching and listening to the echo you have found. You know its source and what must be done."

Disciple: {Frowns, gathering a little courage}"I will not let you hurt her."

Kreia: {Amused, slight taunt, but firm}"Little Jedi, you cannot stop me."

Kreia: {Now command tone in voice, firm}"But you will forget this. Your mind is worse than the others, so open, so trusting. Your feelings for her are your weakness. Yet I will gift you with this - you will remember what you have you discovered... when the time is correct."

Kreia: {Slightly impressed}"Know that you have seen what formerly only I knew - now we shall see if you have the strength to stop what comes."

Now, since the exile is female if Disciple is on the Ebon Hawk, there is no question that the cause of destruction here is the exile, not Nihilus. Kreia says that she does not wish the death of all life, which could be taken to mean the death of the force in general, if we are to believe Qui-Gon, when he tells young Anakin: "Without the midi-chlorians, life could not exist and we would have no knowledge of the force".

However, Qui-Gon goes on to say, "They [the midi-chlorians] continually speak to us, telling us the will of the force."

And that is where Kreia has a problem:

Kreia: "It is said that the Force has a will, it has a destiny for us all. I wield it, but it uses us all, and that is abhorrent to me. Because I hate the Force. I hate that it seems to have a will, that it would control us to achieve some measure of balance, when countless lives are lost.But in you... I see the potential to see the Force die, to turn away from its will. And that is what pleases me.You are beautiful to me, exile. A dead spot in the Force, an emptiness in which its will might be denied. I use it as I would use a poison, and in the hopes of understanding it, I will learn the way to kill it."

Now, if you note this carefully and keep what she says above in mind, you'll note that while Kreia hates the will of the force, she has no desire to see all life die. Indeed, it is precisely because the will of the force dictates all life that she hates it, which indicates a great desire for liberty from the will of the force for all life. And since Kreia is quite willing to sacrifice herself, she does not do this for the sake of her own power, but because she does care about the rest of the galaxy in her own perverted way.

It's complex, yes, but it does make sense. In fact, Kreia is very much like Ahab in Melville's "Moby Dick" - like Ahab is at war with God, Kreia is at war with the will of the force. The real tragedy of TSL is that points like this one are far too obscured by the rushed production schedule, which really hurts the story. It's a very powerful story, but it's told very badly in places

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Not only that, but then how can you kill Darth Nihlius "reborn"? According to K2, The Exile was the only person that can slaughter the man and save the galaxy, since The Exile is a wound in the Force. If The Exile is Darth Nihlius, then how can you stop him? Come up with any way to defeat him, and you'll see that you made Darth Nihlius becomes much more weaker...
In short, you can't! That's why you have to resort to manipulation and strategy. You can trick Revan to kill the exile, or you can redeem the exile by appealing to experiences of the past, such as the exile's horror at Malachor V.

I actually want the new character in KotOR3 to be less powerful than both Revan and Exile, because otherwise you're just pushing the game into the uberpowerful to the point of being ludicrous and cheesy. Revan is among the most powerful jedi of his age, if not the most powerful, and the exile has unique abilities that amount to great power as well. The "main pc is uber-powerful"-ploy has been used twice now. It's old, so change it - just let the new pc be an "average joe" (or is that "average jedi") whose only advantage is that he happens to be in the right place at the right time to affect how events unfold that will shape the galaxy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
It is sort of tragic of having Revan turn The Exile into Darth Nihlius...and also a wiping of all that was done in K2. Note, however, that they did the exact same thing in K2, no matter what happens in K1, in K2, Revan flees Republic Space. So, such an idea is very, very possible. I would not be suprised if developers use this method.
It IS tragic, but that's what I like about it

Besides, if Revan and/or Exile are set to LS, they should be redeemable. If DS, however, you must either see to it that they die because they've become too evil, or else you have to eliminate them because they are in your way on your rise to ultimate power over the Sith. Because that is the way of the Sith. Remember that Sidious was actually not as powerful as his master - he attained power by being clever and killing Plagueis in his sleep, not by besting him in a lightsaber duel.

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Originally Posted by SilentScope001
There should be other ways, however (and I'll think of some other ideas). Prehaps The Exile should just be a great admiral, like that Darth Malak's admiral on the Leviviatan that you kill. The Exile uses his/her wound status to grow more powerful to fight via the Force, prehaps even sucking The Force from other people (but never growing suck force poewr to the extent of Nihlius), and uses his/her forces to help out Revan. I may be grasping out at straws here.
The real problem is that the Exile's power is inherently dangerous. Although I agree with Kreia that the masters were wrong to try and cut the exile off from the force out of blind fear and paranoia, that is not the same as saying that it must not be resolved somehow. Kreia knows this too - just see her "discussion" with Disciple above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Weakest part of the story, and by far, where most of the developers' time energy will be. Having the PC be True Sith blood is the way I could see it, though it still may not do it...
Sorry, but I don't like that. The "you're The One"-plot has been used twice now. It's old, and it was old even the first time. I don't want my character to be special because of some unique abilities or forgotten past that I have no control over and which is just thrown in my face by the plot. It undermines the value of the CHOICES I've made during the game, since it was my unique nature of being "the one" that shaped things and not what I chose to do at various points in the game. Now, it can work in games, and it does in both KotOR games. But I really, really don't want to play K3 thinking "okay, so what's the reason for me being more powerful and unique than everyone else this time" and be right about it - I hate it when I'm right about these things!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
And another idea is to have Revan and Exile be "weakened" by some external force, say, being distracted. That way, Revan and Exile is not at their "full potential", and therefore can be defeated quite easily. (It also sastifies fanboys of both Revan and Exile...with Revan and Exile already weakened by the distraction, it explains away why Revan and Exile are easy bosses, and still make Revan and Exile look cool.) Hm...I wonder about Force Bond murdering here...killing off friends and allies of Revan and Exile to make them weaker...
Meh. That's doesn't sound very compelling to me either. The only that would work for me is if the pc can trick Revan and exile into fighting each other. One would then kill the other, and you'd then kill the victor while he's still weak from the fight.

We've seen both Revan and Exile being "weakened" by the plot before. IMHO that's old hat too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Let be quite honest here. Nobody here ever, ever predicted The Exile would be a Wound in the Force before K2 came out. So, I think the reason the PC would defeat Revan and Exile is due to some hidden Obisidan secret that will be revealed when the game comes out.
I do agree with you there


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Old 02-09-2007, 07:53 PM   #13
SilentScope001
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I don't see why Exile becoming a new Nihilus would undo Kreia's teachings. Don't mistake Kreia's desire to defy and destroy the WILL of the force with a desire to destroy the force itself.
I don't.

But The Exile was able to turn away from the will of the Force. And then you had him embrace the will of the Force again. That does seem like destroying Kreia's belief right there! Kreia does not want what The Exile has taught himself to die...and yet it died.

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In short, you can't! That's why you have to resort to manipulation and strategy. You can trick Revan to kill the exile, or you can redeem the exile by appealing to experiences of the past, such as the exile's horror at Malachor V.
Then you beg the question of how can The Exile or Revan kill each other.

Playing as an manlipuative bastard may be interesting, and I might like it, but I doubt most people would want to play as Mini-Kreia/Sidious here.

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I actually want the new character in KotOR3 to be less powerful than both Revan and Exile, because otherwise you're just pushing the game into the uberpowerful to the point of being ludicrous and cheesy. Revan is among the most powerful jedi of his age, if not the most powerful, and the exile has unique abilities that amount to great power as well. The "main pc is uber-powerful"-ploy has been used twice now. It's old, so change it - just let the new pc be an "average joe" (or is that "average jedi") whose only advantage is that he happens to be in the right place at the right time to affect how events unfold that will shape the galaxy.
It has to however be someone different because if it is some "average joe", he can easily be replaced by another "average joe", or by much more notable Jedi like Atton, Disciple, Handmadien. If any Jedi can destroy the True Sith, then the True Sith show themselves to become a quite weak and cheesy threat. The True Sith are something to be feared, not something to be trifiled with by mere Jedi.

And if you could manlipuate Revan and Exile into butchering each other, you infact DID make a uber-powerful character...a great manlipuator in the relams of Kreia and Palpatine...which I think shouldn't be done. We already got 2 manlipative bastards, we don't need any more.

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It IS tragic, but that's what I like about it
It ignores everything in K2 though. I would rather perfer a war between The Force and The Exile where the Exile gets killed in a much more tragic way, rather than have The Exile submit.

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The real problem is that the Exile's power is inherently dangerous. Although I agree with Kreia that the masters were wrong to try and cut the exile off from the force out of blind fear and paranoia, that is not the same as saying that it must not be resolved somehow. Kreia knows this too - just see her "discussion" with Disciple above.
Really? All I got from it is that The Exile was able to bond with other people, and augment his strength as a natural leader...while stealing Force from dead Sith to make him more powerful. How is that dangerous? He's just a leader of an army with a ton of Force Power lying within him. As long as he does not get consumed by this hunger to gain Force, and rather just is interested in gaining followers, then there is no problem whatsoever.

And I assume that Disciple knows that something has to be done to The Exile, but he does not know what. The Disciple is worried about some entiy that wants to destroy the universe, and Kreia says he knows how to stop it. Disciple is fearful that Kreia is going to harm The Exile in the process, but Kreia isn't.

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Disciple: {Go for broke, it's like the Disciple just discovered the apocalypse is going to happen tomorrow - quiet, awed, and horrified}"At first... I thought it was just conquest, but it's more terrible than that. It's an echo, spreading outwards, killing everything."

Disciple: {Still quiet, but incredulous}"It's not possible."
This entity that wants to destroy the Universe is not The Exile, but rather, Darth Nihlius. When Kreia comments that this is not how she wants to win the war, she is saying that she does not want Nihilius to take over the galaxy. Kreia's "meedling" with The Exile is to create a powerful Force User that would act as bait to Nihlius, getting Nihlius to suck The Exile, a wound in the Force...and weaken himself in the process. This allowed for The Exile to destroy Nihlius, and save the universe.

And Kreia said that he would cause Mical to speak something to The Exile...when prompted. That comment is, to me, Mical's little spiel about how The Exile is the greatest right after the Jedi Enclave.

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Sorry, but I don't like that. The "you're The One"-plot has been used twice now. It's old, and it was old even the first time. I don't want my character to be special because of some unique abilities or forgotten past that I have no control over and which is just thrown in my face by the plot. It undermines the value of the CHOICES I've made during the game, since it was my unique nature of being "the one" that shaped things and not what I chose to do at various points in the game. Now, it can work in games, and it does in both KotOR games. But I really, really don't want to play K3 thinking "okay, so what's the reason for me being more powerful and unique than everyone else this time" and be right about it - I hate it when I'm right about these things!!
I can understand that but I'm more worried about the fact that if you, a random Jedi, can smash the True Sith, then so can ANY random Jedi. The game designers have to make yourself feel somewhat important, otherwise people will just question why are we supposed to fear the True Sith. You have to be special, in other words...

You fear if your choices are constrained, but I fear what happens if the True Sith appears very weak. That, I feel, will do more damage to the belivablity of the game as well as to plot itself. We are supposed to be feeling as if the True Sith are very evil beings who are so dangerous...and yet anyone could destroy them?

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Meh. That's doesn't sound very compelling to me either. The only that would work for me is if the pc can trick Revan and exile into fighting each other. One would then kill the other, and you'd then kill the victor while he's still weak from the fight.

We've seen both Revan and Exile being "weakened" by the plot before. IMHO that's old hat too.
The PC tricking Revan and Exile? That doesn't work for me. I like being a manlipuative bastard, but tricking your own characters doesn't exactly cut it...and it sort of demeans them much more than a battle to the finish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spoiler for K3
Revan: "I'm Dark Lord of the True Sith! With my buddy, Darth Nihlius REBORN, Nothing can stop us! Nothing!"

Jedi Padwan: [Force Dominate] "Stab Darth Nihlius Reborn in the back."

Revan: "I shall stab Darth Nihlius Reborn in the back." *stabs Darth Nihlius Reborn in the back*

Jedi Padwan: [Force Dominate] "Now stab yourself."

Revan: "I will stab myself." *stabs myself and dies*

*play ending movie*
This was a satire, but it shows what I feel. Basically, to be basically "tricked" by a Jedi Padwan makes Exile and Revan look...dumb and easy to contorl. I like to assume my characters have at least average IQ.

As for appealing to The Exile's dark past to "redeem" him, I could see that happening, but I doubt really. The Exile is Darth Nihlius Reborn, any attempt to reason with him would be met with strange screams.

The only real solution to the crisis? Revan and Exile leads the Civil War...and loses. Revan and Exile has been killed off, and now that the True Sith Empire is resurrected, it can then continue with its plans to destroy the Republic. The only thing that Civil War really did was buy time for a new Jedi Order to be formed and the Mandalorian clans to be reunited, which would bot then fight the True Sith during the impending invasion.

That way, players has the added movivation of taking revenge on the death of their two most beloved characters, and we won't have to worry about killing them at the end.

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I do agree with you there


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Old 02-10-2007, 06:04 AM   #14
Jediphile
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Originally Posted by SilentScope001
But The Exile was able to turn away from the will of the Force. And then you had him embrace the will of the Force again. That does seem like destroying Kreia's belief right there! Kreia does not want what The Exile has taught himself to die...and yet it died.
I guess I don't see the wound itself as necessary for the exile to resist the will of the force. The exile did it once and can do it again. Whether the wound is healed or not doesn't matter. To me the exile is basically saying to the will of the force, "you tried to exert your will over me, and so I hurt you. Now, leave me alone, or I'll do it again!"

Remember that the masters are concerned primarily with what the exile can do. It doesn't seem to me that the wound itself is their greatest concern, but rather they ability to create it.

"What if other Jedi went to war as you did, suffered the same events, and emerged as you did. What if there was a crucible that trained such Jedi to consume and kill? For you, Malachor was that crucible. What's worse, is these Sith that we face... I fear that they have learned the lesson of Malachor all too well. It is what allows them to prey on Force users, to become stronger when Force Sensitives are near. Somehow, they have learned their hunger from you. And so you have brought about the end of the Jedi, and perhaps all the knowledge of the Force."

This is why they want to cut the exile off from the force - not because of the force wound, but because the very knowledge of making them is unnatural and dangerous to them. The don't want to allow the exile the possibility of teaching this ability to others. If the exile had been such a danger all by himself, you would assume they would have tried to kill him every time they met him to stop the danger he presents, but they don't do that - you fight the masters only if you choose to, not because they do. But they are concerned with the teachings the exile is spreading to his companions, and has somehow taught the Sith, primarily Nihilus, as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Then you beg the question of how can The Exile or Revan kill each other.
Revan is a very powerful jedi. I don't hold to the idea that Revan is the most powerful jedi ever, because to me that's just fanboyism. But Revan is among the most powerful jedi, perhaps the most powerful, of his own age. So I do believe he has the skill, especially after having been among the true Sith for at least five years, to kill any force user in single combat.

The exile can feed off the force. If he can learn the abilities of Nihilus that means he can drain others, including Revan. Basically that would mean the exile has the ability drain Revan to death, as Nihilus did the masters on Katarr. However, against Revan there's a catch - the Exile is not a mindless hunger for force as Nihilus was. Revan has always had a powerful influence over the exile, which leaves the exile with a bit of an infiriority complex when it comes to Revan. In the suggested plot, Revan MADE exile into Nihilus. So Revan has power over the exile. To me, it's similar to Palpatine and Anakin - Palpatine freely admits that Anakin is more powerful than him, yet Palpatine is still the ruling Sith, because he has a very strong and powerful influence over Anakin.

So Revan and exile could kill each other. If they are both DS (from their choices in KotOR and TSL respectively), it could be cool, if we have a scene, where Exile kills Revan in a way similar to how Anakin kills Palpatine, once he realises how much Palpatine has manipulated and perverted him. Not a carbon copy, of course, but something based on the same sort of shock it would be to realise this for the exile.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Playing as an manlipuative bastard may be interesting, and I might like it, but I doubt most people would want to play as Mini-Kreia/Sidious here.
Actually, a major complaint against the previous KotORs is that playing DS means being a jerk and a thug and not a manipulator like Sidious.

And using other means than brute force does not necessarily mean nefarious manipulation. Wouldn't it be cool, if we have a scene, where Bastila redeems former LSM Revan by declaring her love for him and so turns him back to the light, just as he did with her on the Starforge in KotOR? If done right, I think that could be pretty moving (without being sickening).

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
It has to however be someone different because if it is some "average joe", he can easily be replaced by another "average joe", or by much more notable Jedi like Atton, Disciple, Handmadien. If any Jedi can destroy the True Sith, then the True Sith show themselves to become a quite weak and cheesy threat. The True Sith are something to be feared, not something to be trifiled with by mere Jedi.
Well, I my own plot, I did give the pc one minor ability that was unique - he had the ability to sense on a very basic level how other people felt in extreme situations. That allowed him to sense regret in Revan or exile, even when they denied it to their former companions themselves, and so it was a means by which to make them realise their own true feelings and redeem them. But naturally, it could be used only in conversation, not combat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
And if you could manlipuate Revan and Exile into butchering each other, you infact DID make a uber-powerful character...a great manlipuator in the relams of Kreia and Palpatine...which I think shouldn't be done. We already got 2 manlipative bastards, we don't need any more.
Oh, come on - we need all the manipulative bastards we can get

Besides, such a character would speak to the very weaknesses I see in both Revan and exile.

Revan is a great tactician and powerful jedi. But he can also be a damned idiot. He decided to embrace the dark side so he could destroy the true Sith, and he did it all by himself. In short, he thought he could embrace the dark side to a controlled level, so that he would not be corrupted entirely himself. Fool! Now, I know we could accuse Luke of the same mistake, but Luke had no way of knowing better, while Revan must have gotten an earful every day about how Ulic Qel-Droma made just those mistakes: He thought he could embrace the dark side while avoiding corruption, and he thought he could do it alone. But jedi are never alone, and you can't wield the dark side like a tool. Whether Revan was stupid or prideful (in that he thought he was above corruption) or both about this doesn't really matter, but he was at least one of them in my book. And you could use that against him.

The exile, on the other hand, is a timid character on some levels. His entire fate in TSL is one of denial and rejection. He doesn't know he cut himself off from the force. Did he cut himself off because he feared the dark side? According to Kreia, that is the case for the LS exile.

Kreia (to the unconscious exile on Dantooine): "The Mandalorian Wars were a series of massacres that masked another war, a war of conversion.Culminating a final atrocity that no Jedi could walk away from... save one.And that is what I sought to understand. How one could turn away from such power, give up the Force... and still live. But I see what happened now. It is because you had no choice.It is because you were afraid."

Indeed, the exile has gone for more than a decade without realising what he did, and continues to go through most of the game without seeing it. He also refuses to talk about Malachor or his past to the extent, where you actually have to learn about it from other characters. Denial, fear and infiriority seem to be the key words for describing the exile. And you could use that against him.


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Originally Posted by SilentScope001
It ignores everything in K2 though. I would rather perfer a war between The Force and The Exile where the Exile gets killed in a much more tragic way, rather than have The Exile submit.
I disagree. I think it expands on TSL more than anything else. At the end of TSL, the exile realises he's a wound in the force, but the revelation is never used for anything, and the problem that the wound represents is never resolved. It should be, I think. I don't see the exile as a staunch opponent to the will of the force - that was Kreia's agenda, not Exile's. After all, when the masters decide to cut the exile off from the force to prevent the wound from spreading, I do have the option of not resisting them. If the plot forces the exile into Kreia's position, then he can become a different character than you played, since deciding whether the wound was a problem was the player's choice in TSL and not dictated by the plot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Really? All I got from it is that The Exile was able to bond with other people, and augment his strength as a natural leader...while stealing Force from dead Sith to make him more powerful. How is that dangerous? He's just a leader of an army with a ton of Force Power lying within him. As long as he does not get consumed by this hunger to gain Force, and rather just is interested in gaining followers, then there is no problem whatsoever.
Maybe not for the exile, no. But how can you trust that he can resist this hunger? Can you take that chance with the entire fate of the galaxy in the balance? The jedi masters decided that they could not.

And how about spreding that teaching to others? Accordig to the masters, the exile has already taught it to the Sith who destroyed Katarr, meaning Nihilus. And even Kreia agrees that Nihilus must be destroyed, before his hunger consumes the entire galaxy. Given how the exile forms force bonds with others, how quickly could he impose this ability on others? Because every time he does, that's another individual who must resist the hunger in order for the galaxy to not be doomed in the long run. As the number of people with this ability grows, the odds for the survival of the galaxy grow slim indeed...

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Originally Posted by SilentScope001
And I assume that Disciple knows that something has to be done to The Exile, but he does not know what. The Disciple is worried about some entiy that wants to destroy the universe, and Kreia says he knows how to stop it. Disciple is fearful that Kreia is going to harm The Exile in the process, but Kreia isn't.
Because Kreia knows that she will not hurt the Exile. She never wanted to. But note that she basically says to the Disciple, or at least implies it, that the exile presents a danger that must be resolved somehow. If the exile's power is like Nihilus', which I think we can assume given that the masters reveal the exile as being the one who taught Nihilus, then there is no question that Kreia thinks it must be stopped, if we look at how she feels about Nihilus' powers.

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Originally Posted by SilentScope001
This entity that wants to destroy the Universe is not The Exile, but rather, Darth Nihlius. When Kreia comments that this is not how she wants to win the war, she is saying that she does not want Nihilius to take over the galaxy.
No, I disagree there. That's precisely why Disciple's comment, "I won't let you hurt her" is significant and noteworthy. Nihilus is always referred to as male. So the point of the conversation is the exile, not Nihilus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Kreia's "meedling" with The Exile is to create a powerful Force User that would act as bait to Nihlius, getting Nihlius to suck The Exile, a wound in the Force...and weaken himself in the process. This allowed for The Exile to destroy Nihlius, and save the universe.
That is true, as far as Nihilus goes. However, Kreia's goals go beyond that. Also, some people point out that you can kill Nihilus without him trying to drain you. It's never happened to me, but if that's the case, then why would that be necessary? Besides, the exile is already a hole in the force, so why does Kreia insist that the exile cannot meet him until late in the game? It seems to me that Kreia knows that the exile must be powerful enough in the force (through others) to kill Nihilus, because Nihilus has grown so strong. Nobody else can do this, however, since Nihilus could just drain them to death. Against the exile, that draining is useless, however, and Kreia knows that. But that doesn't mean Nihilus is not dangerous to the Exile. The Exile must strong enough in the force not to be simply killed by Nihilus through other means first, or also the only chance to destroy Nihilus is lost.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
And Kreia said that he would cause Mical to speak something to The Exile...when prompted. That comment is, to me, Mical's little spiel about how The Exile is the greatest right after the Jedi Enclave.
Meh. Where does that leave the male Exile? Besides, Visas does something similar for the male exile without being told so by Kreia.

Either way, maybe that was it, or maybe it hasn't happened in the plot yet. Which it is does not seem very important to me, since the presence of the Disciple at that point is optional depending on gender.

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Originally Posted by SilentScope001
I can understand that but I'm more worried about the fact that if you, a random Jedi, can smash the True Sith, then so can ANY random Jedi. The game designers have to make yourself feel somewhat important, otherwise people will just question why are we supposed to fear the True Sith. You have to be special, in other words...
You're important because you're there. Your choices, not your abilities, should be what makes or breaks the plot. Or to quote Galadriel in LOTR: "Even the smallest person can change the course of history."

I prefer that, because the alternative means that some people are more "correct" than others. If Revan dies in KotOR, then galaxy is doomed. If Exile dies in TSL, the galaxy is doomed. Why? Because they have unique abilities and without those all hope is lost. Nonsense! There is always hope, no matter what! I refuse to believe that one of them is killed, then the galaxy may just as well accept it and roll over and die. No! You always find another way, because it's always there. Anything else has unsettling semi-fascist overtones, because it enforces the idea of some "master race" that can solve the problems, while the common people cannot. In short, yuck!

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
You fear if your choices are constrained, but I fear what happens if the True Sith appears very weak. That, I feel, will do more damage to the belivablity of the game as well as to plot itself. We are supposed to be feeling as if the True Sith are very evil beings who are so dangerous...and yet anyone could destroy them?
Anyone could push the button to detonate a nuclear bomb, if they're in the right place at the right time. Frodo killed Sauron by destroying his ring. Does that mean Sauron and his ring were not powerful? Or that Frodo was more powerful than Sauron? I certainly didn't get that impression, nor do I get the impression that anyone else did. And we're talking about one of the most beloved, and certainly most read, works of popular fiction here. If it did not strain the plot's credibilty there, I doubt it will in a KotOR game.

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Originally Posted by SilentScope001
The PC tricking Revan and Exile? That doesn't work for me. I like being a manlipuative bastard, but tricking your own characters doesn't exactly cut it...and it sort of demeans them much more than a battle to the finish.
Revan and Exile are NOT your characters. Revan WAS your character in KotOR. Exile WAS your character in TSL. Revan was not your character in TSL and won't be in KotOR3. Exile was not your character in KotOR and won't be in KotOR3.

So while you may feel intimate when it comes to those characters having played them in the past, they are not yours. Revan did lots of things before you got to play him KotOR. And you did not choose for him to go to the unknown regions and fight the true Sith - that was dictated to you by the plot. Similarly, the exile has a long history, before you ever get to play him. By the time KotOR3 begins, the exile will have had experience you have no control over for however many years have passed since the end of TSL. And Revan will similarly have had experiences and made choices you have nothing to do with for however many years KotOR3 is set after TSL plus five.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
This was a satire, but it shows what I feel. Basically, to be basically "tricked" by a Jedi Padwan makes Exile and Revan look...dumb and easy to contorl. I like to assume my characters have at least average IQ.
Yes, but they both have heavy backstories. Revan loved either Bastila or Carth. If they are present in the group, you have some control over them and use them to influence Revan. Similar with Handmaiden/Visas or Atton/Disciple for the Exile. Heck, for Exile Bao-Dur might be even more significant if still alive, since was the only one the exile could share experiences about Malachor V with. And that was, after all, the singularly most significant moment of time in the exile's life, given that it drove him to cut his own force bonds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
As for appealing to The Exile's dark past to "redeem" him, I could see that happening, but I doubt really. The Exile is Darth Nihlius Reborn, any attempt to reason with him would be met with strange screams.
Well, I see the Exile-turned-Nihilus as not quite that unhuman. Nihilus, in TSL, was a total void of both emotions and desires. The Exile-Nihilus will be more of a inner battleground between the two extremes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
The only real solution to the crisis? Revan and Exile leads the Civil War...and loses. Revan and Exile has been killed off, and now that the True Sith Empire is resurrected, it can then continue with its plans to destroy the Republic. The only thing that Civil War really did was buy time for a new Jedi Order to be formed and the Mandalorian clans to be reunited, which would bot then fight the True Sith during the impending invasion.
I couldn't disagree more. Revan and Exile may die, but if they are just killed off conveniently in the background, I'll be so disappointed, I doubt I'll continue to play the game. They could have done that with Revan in TSL. They could have said that he went to the unknown regions, but died heroically fighting the true Sith. But they chose not to, and so I expect, no I DEMAND, to see Revan alive again, even if it's only for the sake of killing him. Revan and Exile were my characters in the past, so I insist on seeing their fates unfold with my own eyes, whether it be for good or ill.

Besides, if Revan and Exile would appear "too weak" be being killed through manipulation, then how could the true Sith kill them, if you are supposed to destroy the true Sith by the end of the game? That's just lame IMHO.

If the architect or I or anyone else can write plots that use these characters without undoing their characteristics or gender/alignment chosen in past games, then professional writers can to, and probably better than us. Anything else is a cop-out!

And if the point is that Revan and Exile can never fail or fall on screen because they are "my" characters, then that's just catering to fanboyism. It was possible for Revan and Exile to be killed in ANY battle in their respective games. So they're not all-powerful, and they are not force-gods! People who cannot accept them as anything else should just grow up, if you ask me (and I'm referring to the fanboys and not you, when I say that).

Revan and Exile are powerful characters and nothing more. They should be treated as such. With respect for their experiences and choices, of course, but nothing more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
That way, players has the added movivation of taking revenge on the death of their two most beloved characters, and we won't have to worry about killing them at the end.
I don't like that, because that enforces a latent motive of revenge even if you play LS. Revenge is not the way of the jedi, and since LS is the canonical version of events, the plot should not play towards that. Heck, even Lucas accepted that it couldn't be "Revenge of the Jedi." And I do believe that is the only time he's ever acknowledged that he was indeed mistaken about his vision of Star Wars.

Besides, what you suggest means that whether I chose LS or DS for Revan or Exile doesn't matter. They are dead either way, and their choices don't matter. Why bother making them then? I want those choices to be significant to the plot in KotOR3, and I know that is possible, because I did it in my own plot without adding an entire game on top of the foundation. It would take replacement of characters in a few places (like Bastila being replaced by three sith lords on the Starforge, if you choose DS) and some extra cutscenes. If even I can do it, then the developers of KotOR3 can too, easily.


"It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built" - Kreia

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Old 02-10-2007, 07:08 AM   #15
Keshin
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Man you guys think hard about this stuff :P

I like the idea of a PC being a member of the new, growing Jedi order. But I dont want to see another "I've lost my memory" type PC. I'd much prefer a fresh new apprentice type Jedi.

I would like to see a situation where the PC's potential is sought after by a Sith lord to make him/her their apprentice. Maybe like Vader secretly trying to get Luke to join him to overrule the current Emperor.
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Old 02-10-2007, 01:52 PM   #16
SilentScope001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
*Discussion about Force wound, Revan's Power, Exile, etc.*
We have to agree to disagree, at least until K3 comes out and confirms either (or none) of our hypothesises. I can understand your beliefs though.

The thing I like about K2 is that so many interpertions are possible. There are so many different ways of looking at the game so that it causes you to think. I see that as great storyline, because I don't want someone to tell me all the answers. I want to think. That debate we had above is an excellent example of how two people can look at the same work of art and see different messages. Let's keep that.

To return back to the question at hand...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
And using other means than brute force does not necessarily mean nefarious manipulation. Wouldn't it be cool, if we have a scene, where Bastila redeems former LSM Revan by declaring her love for him and so turns him back to the light, just as he did with her on the Starforge in KotOR? If done right, I think that could be pretty moving (without being sickening).
I have a pretty broad definition of manlipuation, and will consider Bastila redeeming Revan to being doing such manlipuation, akin to Palpatine secretly using Padme to lure Anakin to the Dark Side. I wonder if it would be cool if Bastila seduce the DSM Revan to betray the True Sith as well...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
I disagree. I think it expands on TSL more than anything else. At the end of TSL, the exile realises he's a wound in the force, but the revelation is never used for anything, and the problem that the wound represents is never resolved. It should be, I think. I don't see the exile as a staunch opponent to the will of the force - that was Kreia's agenda, not Exile's. After all, when the masters decide to cut the exile off from the force to prevent the wound from spreading, I do have the option of not resisting them. If the plot forces the exile into Kreia's position, then he can become a different character than you played, since deciding whether the wound was a problem was the player's choice in TSL and not dictated by the plot.
I sort of assumed that The Force would hate The Exile anyway, and would strike against him and attempt to stop him. I guess you can say The Force destroys The Exile by forcing him to submit...but to me, that seems...wrong.

This leads to the question of HOW Kreia can destroy the will of the Force then? If Kreia wants Exile to heal the wound that he has caused on Malachor V, then what is Kreia doing to the Force? Blackmail it?

Quote:
You're important because you're there. Your choices, not your abilities, should be what makes or breaks the plot. Or to quote Galadriel in LOTR: "Even the smallest person can change the course of history."
And why are you able to deterimine what is life and death? Why, your abilities. If Revan wasn't the only one that could destroy Malak, then Revan wouldn't have the choice of taking over the Sith Empire or saving the Republic. If Exile wasn't the Last of the Jedi, then he wouldn't have the ability to choose between resurrecting the Jedi or the Sith Order.

Quote:
I prefer that, because the alternative means that some people are more "correct" than others. If Revan dies in KotOR, then galaxy is doomed. If Exile dies in TSL, the galaxy is doomed. Why? Because they have unique abilities and without those all hope is lost. Nonsense! There is always hope, no matter what! I refuse to believe that one of them is killed, then the galaxy may just as well accept it and roll over and die. No! You always find another way, because it's always there. Anything else has unsettling semi-fascist overtones, because it enforces the idea of some "master race" that can solve the problems, while the common people cannot. In short, yuck!
It is, in fact, one of the problems that Biden, a writer of anti-Star Wars treatises, talks about Star Wars. Star Wars embraces a romantic idea that only chosen people (like say, the Jedi Order) can save the universe...and if those chosen people fall, so do the whole galaxy.

We see this again with Luke Skywalker being a very powerful Force User, and his crusade to battle against Darth Vader and Palpatine. What if Luke fell to the Dark Side? Or what if Princess Leia joined with the Dark Side to create some sort of "Sith Republic"? Then we might as well write off that the galaxy shall die off.

I see it as needed for a storyline, otherwise you minizimze the effect of great men, and why they are great. The hope is personficied within the main characters who are struggling, and if those characters are stopped, then the galaxy has fallen...

Also, don't you listen to Jolee? Jolee state that just because the evil guys win means only centuries of tyranny. So what if Revan fell to Darth Malak? It only means centuries of being ruled by the False Sith...and later the True Sith...before the Force intervenes with a new Jedi Order that smashes the True Sith right after they engage in their annual 149th Civil War. So what if Exile fell and Darth Nihlius becomes a Force God. He'll die sooner or later, after consuming almost everything, and the remenants will create new civilizations. These defeats effected history, and made for a better world...but they were not necessary. Those temporal powers, Malak and Nihlius, will die. The people suffer, but hope will come in and save the day.

I do not the idea of the master race, but I also do not like more that an average person can defeat tremendous powers. At least the master race you can understand, but I worry the Average Jedi would defame the True Sith. Oh well...

Quote:
Anyone could push the button to detonate a nuclear bomb, if they're in the right place at the right time. Frodo killed Sauron by destroying his ring. Does that mean Sauron and his ring were not powerful? Or that Frodo was more powerful than Sauron? I certainly didn't get that impression, nor do I get the impression that anyone else did. And we're talking about one of the most beloved, and certainly most read, works of popular fiction here. If it did not strain the plot's credibilty there, I doubt it will in a KotOR game.
Mr. Biden also talks about how The Lord of the Rings is with Star Wars with promoting that "master race" belief that only certain people would be able to save the galaxy. (Biden is also a fan of Saroun, seeing him as a good guy)

...Why do you have access to the nuclear bombs? Not because you were randomly drafted into the Nuclear Missle Red Button Pressing Squad, but because you are a skilled person, who is trusted by the US Government and has a keen sense of knowing EXACTLY what to nuke to bring down enemy regimes.

Quote:
Well, I my own plot, I did give the pc one minor ability that was unique - he had the ability to sense on a very basic level how other people felt in extreme situations. That allowed him to sense regret in Revan or exile, even when they denied it to their former companions themselves, and so it was a means by which to make them realise their own true feelings and redeem them. But naturally, it could be used only in conversation, not combat.
Hm...Force Empathy? That would fit into the "manlipuation" of Exile and Revan needed to smash the True Sith. It also sastifies my call to have the third Character have a special power that makes him the only one that can stop the True Sith.

I still see it as being a "manlipuative bastard" (if the character wishes to use his power for the Dark Side), along the lines of Kriea and Palpatine. I would love that, but I can see that as being pretty, pretty unpopular.

Quote:
Revan and Exile are NOT your characters. Revan WAS your character in KotOR. Exile WAS your character in TSL. Revan was not your character in TSL and won't be in KotOR3. Exile was not your character in KotOR and won't be in KotOR3.

So while you may feel intimate when it comes to those characters having played them in the past, they are not yours. Revan did lots of things before you got to play him KotOR. And you did not choose for him to go to the unknown regions and fight the true Sith - that was dictated to you by the plot. Similarly, the exile has a long history, before you ever get to play him. By the time KotOR3 begins, the exile will have had experience you have no control over for however many years have passed since the end of TSL. And Revan will similarly have had experiences and made choices you have nothing to do with for however many years KotOR3 is set after TSL plus five.
Of course, I have no contorl over the Revan's and Exile's actions. But I do see that there is still some sort of empathy for them.

But still. There is fanboyism. You hate them, I hate them...but Star Wars love them.

Why not? It is the fanboys that care about Star Wars. It is the fanboys who would want to help Star Wars grow and prosper. It is the fanboys that buy their stuff. They exist, and in large numbers. They know they do not contorl Revan and Exile, but they do want to make sure he is respected...and do not want him to be defeated (physically or non-physically) easily...or at all.

I'm thinking here about business sense here. They make up a large section of fans of KOTOR...and if you make them mad, they will say that you destroy the series.

And they may be very well right.

Quote:
I couldn't disagree more. Revan and Exile may die, but if they are just killed off conveniently in the background, I'll be so disappointed, I doubt I'll continue to play the game. They could have done that with Revan in TSL. They could have said that he went to the unknown regions, but died heroically fighting the true Sith. But they chose not to, and so I expect, no I DEMAND, to see Revan alive again, even if it's only for the sake of killing him. Revan and Exile were my characters in the past, so I insist on seeing their fates unfold with my own eyes, whether it be for good or ill.
OMG. I forgotten about the fact of Carth telling me that he "knows" Revan is still alive out there. I thought they were noncomittal if Revan and Exile would be dead in the True Sith galaxy...

But they were not noncomittal, they basically had hints that Revan and Exile would live...so since those hints are there, Revan and Exile would live.

Quote:
Besides, if Revan and Exile would appear "too weak" be being killed through manipulation, then how could the true Sith kill them, if you are supposed to destroy the true Sith by the end of the game? That's just lame IMHO.
The Jedi Padwan's power (no matter what it is) that allows them to prevail over the True Sith. Think of it as a triangle. Revan/Exile's weakness is the True Sith. The True Sith's weakness is the Jedi Padawn. The Jedi Padawn's weakness is Revan/Exile.

Quote:
I don't like that, because that enforces a latent motive of revenge even if you play LS. Revenge is not the way of the jedi, and since LS is the canonical version of events, the plot should not play towards that. Heck, even Lucas accepted that it couldn't be "Revenge of the Jedi." And I do believe that is the only time he's ever acknowledged that he was indeed mistaken about his vision of Star Wars.
I was thinking more of an OOC reason rather than a IC reason here. I think the Jedi Padawan would only care about cursory knowledge of the fates of Exile and Revan, but not much more, since he has little connection to both people...but the human contorlling the Jedi Padawan would have some connection.

Quote:
Besides, what you suggest means that whether I chose LS or DS for Revan or Exile doesn't matter. They are dead either way, and their choices don't matter.
It effects the history of the galaxy. A DS Revan brings the Republic to its knees, a LS Revan spares it. It effects key characters. A LS Revan would count on Carth and LS Bastila in assisting in his crusade. A DS Revan will have a mournful Sith Lord named Bastila who takes up his reigns. And don't forget that the Exile's alignment may deterimine the fate of his companions, and the fate of the new Jedi/Sith Order that his followers may form.

Your choices, in other words, leads to the current situation and deterimine it quite well.

Example: If Revan fell to the DS, Bastila would be attempting to regain some Sith territory...and not working with the Jedi Order. A Jedi Padawan aligned to the Light Side would have to redeem or kill off Bastila. Revan's actions are very important, if Revan fell to the LS, you wouldn't have to duel the Jedi Princess over in Sith space, you could peacefully serve under Bastila, the Jedi Master who is slightly less naive and egoistic than when we last saw her, doing fetch cases for her.

...But neither does your story respect the story of a LS/DS Revan and LS/DS Exile. Both have to fall to the Dark Side to take over the Sith Empire. The alignment only deterimines if they get redeemed or not to your story...but that just seems silly. You already are Dark Sided, how can you get redeemed once more? I think we see too many redeemed Sith out there.

The only reason I propose that solution is to solve the compromise of having the third main character battle Exile and Revan. I am still a bit iffy about just convincing Exile and Revan to join the Third Character because to me, that doesn't sound like a good fate. It does have its appeal of being a Mini-Kreia/Sidious, but it still does not sound right.

Quote:
If even I can do it, then the developers of KotOR3 can too, easily.
Yeah, this is my hope, that both our stories are proven incorrect. Maybe the developers of K3 will copy Allronix's idea...have Exile and Kreia become True Sith, and Revan imprisoned in some godforsaken planet thanks to the Sith Trimituvate.


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Old 02-10-2007, 02:02 PM   #17
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Hmmm, I would give it 7 out of 10. But I'm personally not a fan as my Exile would never turn to the darkside... He would rather give up the force, sacrifice those he loves or die himself than give into the power of the DS



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Old 02-10-2007, 03:18 PM   #18
Jediphile
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
I have a pretty broad definition of manlipuation, and will consider Bastila redeeming Revan to being doing such manlipuation, akin to Palpatine secretly using Padme to lure Anakin to the Dark Side. I wonder if it would be cool if Bastila seduce the DSM Revan to betray the True Sith as well...
Personally I see that as less likely because I don't think true love is possible for the sith. A jedi can love, but isn't allowed to. For a jedi, it is right and just to show compassion or even love for others, because while it leaves you open to being hurt, accepting that possibility is strength. For the sith it's just stupidity, since they see everybody as being out to increase their own power, and so showing feelings towards others is only to demonstrate weakness. After all, it allows others to see that they can control you by threatening the thing you care about. Look at the DS ending of KotOR - do you see love between male Revan and Bastila there? I don't. The relationship has changed. Revan is the master now, and Bastila has become his b****. There is no love left, only power.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
This leads to the question of HOW Kreia can destroy the will of the Force then? If Kreia wants Exile to heal the wound that he has caused on Malachor V, then what is Kreia doing to the Force? Blackmail it?
Kreia can't kill the force, and she knows it. Her only means of attacking is the exile, and so the only way to wage war against the will of the force is to take the exile as her apprentice and make the exile's accept her cause as his own. And I do believe she used Nihilus the same way before, which is why she comes looking for the Exile - there are two holes in the force, but one has already betrayed her teachings and rejected her cause. There is only one left now. This is why Kreia is quite willing to accept death at the end of the game. She knows full well that she can never defeat the will of the force directly. At best, she can hope only to have the exile commit to her cause and continue her war, because the exile does have the power to do so, while Kreia herself does not. Whether the exile then accepts or rejects Kreia's cause at the end of the game is uncertain, but I guess it's the player's decision. Not that it matters much, sadly

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
And why are you able to deterimine what is life and death? Why, your abilities. If Revan wasn't the only one that could destroy Malak, then Revan wouldn't have the choice of taking over the Sith Empire or saving the Republic. If Exile wasn't the Last of the Jedi, then he wouldn't have the ability to choose between resurrecting the Jedi or the Sith Order.
Revan was not the only one who could defeat Malak. However powerful anyone might believe Revan to be, I do think the combined jedi council was more powerful. No, Revan's advantage was that he had flashes of his past that could lead him to the Starforge, nothing more. He regained much of his power during that quest, but that is not why he found the Starforge. And given that both the Sith and the Jedi insist on seeing the exile as a threat to be killed or feared, I don't see any resurrection. Indeed, the exile gets to either sit on Malachor with its secrets, but having destroyed the sith to get to that point, or he gets to walk off alone to the unknown territories to find and help Revan. And from Kreia's comments, it seems the latter is inevitable, and only a question of time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
We see this again with Luke Skywalker being a very powerful Force User, and his crusade to battle against Darth Vader and Palpatine. What if Luke fell to the Dark Side?
Obi-Wan: "That boy is our last hope..."

Yoda: "No. There is another!"

Besides, Luke DID fall to the dark side. It was all Leia could do to redeem him. Yet the galaxy survived anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Or what if Princess Leia joined with the Dark Side to create some sort of "Sith Republic"? Then we might as well write off that the galaxy shall die off.
If need be, someone would kill her. As powerful as the jedi or the sith are, they are not gods. Andur Sunrider is a full-blown jedi, yet he is killed by a group of thugs working for a hutt. I swear, there are times when I almost wish Revan and Exile would both be killed by gizka just to point out that the plot is not dictated by poweful characters or fanboys - the writers have control, and if he wants a character dead, the character will die. Period!

Besides, I could never see Revan or Exile as such godlike beings. If they were so superhuman, then how can I even relate to them, being flawed and human myself?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
I see it as needed for a storyline, otherwise you minizimze the effect of great men, and why they are great.
We NEED our protagonists to be flawed and have weaknesses that mirror our own. You become a hero by overcoming your fears and flaws, not by not having any in the first place!

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
I do not the idea of the master race, but I also do not like more that an average person can defeat tremendous powers. At least the master race you can understand, but I worry the Average Jedi would defame the True Sith. Oh well...
In that case, how is it even possible for Revan or Exile to be killed in a random fight with some sand people or kath hounds or whatever? If someone fires a blaster or swings a lightsaber at you, then death is and should be a real possibility. Every time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
...Why do you have access to the nuclear bombs? Not because you were randomly drafted into the Nuclear Missle Red Button Pressing Squad, but because you are a skilled person, who is trusted by the US Government and has a keen sense of knowing EXACTLY what to nuke to bring down enemy regimes.
My point is that if the bomb is there and armed needing only the button to be pushing, then ANYONE who happens to be present for any reason can have a significant impact on history. And there are far worse weapons in Star Wars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Why not? It is the fanboys that care about Star Wars. It is the fanboys who would want to help Star Wars grow and prosper. It is the fanboys that buy their stuff. They exist, and in large numbers. They know they do not contorl Revan and Exile, but they do want to make sure he is respected...and do not want him to be defeated (physically or non-physically) easily...or at all.
J.R.R. Tolkien did not write his works based on focus groups, reader feedback or to placate fanboys. He wrote what he thought was good plot, which is the only consideration any good writer should respect. R.K. Rowling does not care if people like or dislike what she writes. Yet the works of both authors are beloved and respected. If you want a look at how attempts to placate the fans turns out, just look at the sorry state Star Trek is in these days... As a creative force, you can never write on the basis of what people might like - only on the basis of what YOU think is good plot or not. Had Trek always listened only to what the fans said, there never would have been a Star Trek: The Next Generation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
It effects the history of the galaxy. A DS Revan brings the Republic to its knees, a LS Revan spares it. It effects key characters. A LS Revan would count on Carth and LS Bastila in assisting in his crusade. A DS Revan will have a mournful Sith Lord named Bastila who takes up his reigns. And don't forget that the Exile's alignment may deterimine the fate of his companions, and the fate of the new Jedi/Sith Order that his followers may form.
And how much do those characters from KotOR influence TSL based on gender/alignment of Revan? None at all. Bastila and Carth make only cameos, and they have no impact on the plot at all. If Bastila is dead, then she is simply absent in TSL. If Carth is dead or missing, he is just replaced by Cede. Canderous, T3, and HK-47 are unaffected by Revan's alignment, since the droids have no choice and Canderous always sucks up to whomever has power. None of the other companions in KotOR ever appear in TSL or influence it in any way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
...But neither does your story respect the story of a LS/DS Revan and LS/DS Exile. Both have to fall to the Dark Side to take over the Sith Empire. The alignment only deterimines if they get redeemed or not to your story...but that just seems silly.
The alignments and genders of both Revan and Exile do factor into how my KotOR3 plot unfolds. You can ask the Architect if that is so or not, if you doubt me, since I know he has read it. However, since it is quite clear that you have not read it, it seems inappropriate to speculate. So I would respectfully ask that you refrain from criticizing my plots for things that you don't know whether apply or not.


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Old 02-10-2007, 04:59 PM   #19
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Pathetic...[spoilers]

Sorry but I would prefer the Jedi stay either gone for a while or the Jedi begin again leading up to the movies etc. I think this is far off the KOTOR storyline and wouldn't it be a search for Revan and the Exile? Where they went too?

What was "waiting" for them after the Mandalorian wars? Why did Revan leave the things he/she had worked so hard for? (Light side, her/his companions, the republic. Darkside, her/his rule over the galaxy) Did the Exile find Revan or is he/she lost too?

These questions have yet to be answered and should be put into the storyline. Maybe T3 finally finds the person he needs to rescue him. Maybe you play a student of Handmaiden/Disciple, Mira, Bao Dur, or Atton after they had become Jedi. I mean wouldn't they too want to find Revan and the Exile?

In any case, its missing so many things. Far to many gaps left unsaid...Kreia had also said the sith (such as Malak and Revan) weren't the true sith. They were followers of an idea. What happened to the actual race of the sith?
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Old 02-10-2007, 05:03 PM   #20
SilentScope001
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Quote:
Personally I see that as less likely because I don't think true love is possible for the sith.
Would Lust be tolerated?

Quote:
Revan was not the only one who could defeat Malak. However powerful anyone might believe Revan to be, I do think the combined jedi council was more powerful. No, Revan's advantage was that he had flashes of his past that could lead him to the Starforge, nothing more. He regained much of his power during that quest, but that is not why he found the Starforge. And given that both the Sith and the Jedi insist on seeing the exile as a threat to be killed or feared, I don't see any resurrection. Indeed, the exile gets to either sit on Malachor with its secrets, but having destroyed the sith to get to that point, or he gets to walk off alone to the unknown territories to find and help Revan. And from Kreia's comments, it seems the latter is inevitable, and only a question of time.
I'm thinking more of The Exile's followers, the "Lost Jedi" that would either be with the LS or DS thanks to the infulence of The Exile.

Quote:
Kreia can't kill the force, and she knows it.
With personal prefence, I really don't want them to abandon this Force Destruction subplot just like that, with The Exile just giving up the crusade. My DSM Exile is a fan of Kriea, and complimented her, "Man, and I thought I was cold." It's unclear if The Exile would work for Kreia's crusade or not, but I hope that he would.

Quote:
Obi-Wan: "That boy is our last hope..."

Yoda: "No. There is another!"

Besides, Luke DID fall to the dark side. It was all Leia could do to redeem him. Yet the galaxy survived anyway.
I'm talking about during the movies, when Darth Palpatine was killed by Darth Vader, not what happens afterwards here. Those latter stuff is...not of high quality.

Quote:
If need be, someone would kill her. As powerful as the jedi or the sith are, they are not gods. Andur Sunrider is a full-blown jedi, yet he is killed by a group of thugs working for a hutt. I swear, there are times when I almost wish Revan and Exile would both be killed by gizka just to point out that the plot is not dictated by poweful characters or fanboys - the writers have control, and if he wants a character dead, the character will die. Period!
Attribute it to the Writers, the true Will of the Force. But isn't this why I referred to Jolee here. So let consider: what if Leia falls to the Dark Side and take over the Empire and form the Sith Republic? You say she will die, but when? You do not say, but you defer the question to the Writers. Of course, she will die, and the Sith Republic will fall, it is the cycle that many people believe in.

But that's not very important. The fact is that IF Leia did not fall to the Dark Side, the galaxy would be spared the Sith Republic of Leia. Jolee said that because you lose...it's not important in the long term. But it is important in the short term. Leia's Sith Republic will fall, but the tortue and evil Leia would do would be so great and so terrible that it would have been better had her Republic been nipped in the bud. This is why Luke is important...not as important as people claim, but still.

Quote:
J.R.R. Tolkien did not write his works based on focus groups, reader feedback or to placate fanboys. He wrote what he thought was good plot, which is the only consideration any good writer should respect. R.K. Rowling does not care if people like or dislike what she writes. Yet the works of both authors are beloved and respected. If you want a look at how attempts to placate the fans turns out, just look at the sorry state Star Trek is in these days... As a creative force, you can never write on the basis of what people might like - only on the basis of what YOU think is good plot or not. Had Trek always listened only to what the fans said, there never would have been a Star Trek: The Next Generation.
But isn't what makes a good game or a bad game BASED on what people believe? If everyone love it, that is good. LOTR and Harry Potter books were the exception, but what about the norm? Someone writes a really good story, but others shrug it off...so maybe it really isn't such a good story after all. And, don't forget that LOTR and Harry Potter has fans too, and that the designers of those books knows how to make it so that fans are happy...without actually pandering to them.

Already, Obisidan, in their hidden labs, has came up with the solution to this debacale and already written the whole K3 storyline that would make everyone, including you and me, happy. Meanwhile, we're still arguging.

And just because you may personally think it is a good plot, if other people do not, and if most people do not, then maybe it really isn't a good plot, is it?

Let me explain to you what I mean. What if the writers choose my idea and kill off Revan and Exile behind the scenes? Would you be content with their desicon, be happy with it, and just play the game? Nope, you wouldn't play the game at all, as you said before. But that's what the Writers chosen, I'll argue, why must they pander to the Fanboys, The Writers should do whatever they will! You can reply: But you ruin two very important characters, getting rid of them.

Or what if the Writers choose another absurd and stupid idea? Story writers can be stupid, you know, and sooner or later, we would have to curse them for their idiotic mistakes. And that is because they did make idioitc mistakes.

Quote:
And how much do those characters from KotOR influence TSL based on gender/alignment of Revan? None at all. Bastila and Carth make only cameos, and they have no impact on the plot at all. If Bastila is dead, then she is simply absent in TSL. If Carth is dead or missing, he is just replaced by Cede. Canderous, T3, and HK-47 are unaffected by Revan's alignment, since the droids have no choice and Canderous always sucks up to whomever has power. None of the other companions in KotOR ever appear in TSL or influence it in any way.
Check the cut content for an example of how a LS/DS Revan can effect the course of history.

A LS Revan feels pity for Canderous' fate and felt sorry that the Mandalorains got used by the True Sith. The LS Revan ordered Canderous therefore to recreate the Mandalorains, which Canderous happily did.

Meanwhile, the DS Revan tortued Canderous and laughed at his plight of being used, leaving him on an unknown world...Revan spurned Canderous' offer of assistance to battle the True Sith, stating that he has no use of a broken race who will die sooner or later. Canderous formed the Mandalorians in revenge, possibly to prove that Revan is in fact wrong...or more likely, to prove to himself that Revan is wrong.

Not to mention that the hologram T3-M4 has is different depending on gender and alignment, and sometimes different dialouge options with Zek-Ell and Disciple over Revan (if you set Revan to LS), and Bastila's holocron (if you set Revan to DS). That is the infulence I want here, they infulenced the story's mood subtly. Not a lot, but still.

Does that ACTUALLY effect really key events in TSL? Er...no. It would be nice if they do so, but I rather have them put effort into making the game better rather than accounting for every single choice.

Quote:
The alignments and genders of both Revan and Exile do factor into how my KotOR3 plot unfolds. You can ask the Architect if that is so or not, if you doubt me, since I know he has read it. However, since it is quite clear that you have not read it, it seems inappropriate to speculate. So I would respectfully ask that you refrain from criticizing my plots for things that you don't know whether apply or not.
Can you send me a URL of that story please, so that I can comment on it?

Quote:
We NEED our protagonists to be flawed and have weaknesses that mirror our own. You become a hero by overcoming your fears and flaws, not by not having any in the first place!
Superman has fears and flaws. Spiderman has fears and flaws. Exile has fears and flaws. Revan has fears and flaws. Even the Jedi Padawn has fears and flaws.

All of them just have a "special" ability that puts them above the norm...but other than that, they are human. Even your verison of the Jedi Padawan has something special...the ability to know exactly what someone is feeling, to know his innermost thoughts and secrets. This Jedi Padawn then uses this as emotional blackmail to get rid of Exile and Revan, becoming a manlipuative bastard all his own.

They all have weaknesses, but they need strengths to compensate.

Quote:
In that case, how is it even possible for Revan or Exile to be killed in a random fight with some sand people or kath hounds or whatever? If someone fires a blaster or swings a lightsaber at you, then death is and should be a real possibility. Every time.
They don't. The deaths are declared unhistorical, does not happen, and usually, it exist for gameplay reasons (a game is no fun when you are ACTUALLY powerful, see K2). Not in a canonical LS ending, and not in an DS ending as well.

"Let us conclude our lecture of the great Sith Lord, Darth Revan as he battle the horde of Kath Hounds, facing his death at the end of these foul beasts..."

Why didn't they die? It is the Will of the Writers, of course.
---
...In the end, I don't actually see convicing Revan and Exile to give up their crusade, no matter how, as a very good story arc, fitting of their characters, fitting of their warrior spirit. I just don't. Redeemed Sith Lords are a dime a dozen...once you fall to the DS, you should stay there, and you should die there. Revan and Exile are good warriors, I don't want to let them fall into the weakness of being just plain stupid.

It doesn't sound right that they just give up after all their work, after everything they have done. Kreia said it best...Redemeption is a betrayal of their self. Seeing Revan and Exile betray themselves (and the Exile betray himself the first time by giving up his "wound" status) is too terrible to imagine. It is a waste of two characters. If there was such an ending, I may wonder of not playing. It's too cliche an ending...too terrible.

And I am not a fanboy. Revan is overrated, and The Exile is just the Queen piece in Kreia's chess game. Yet, I recognize that weakening those two characters is just defeating the purpose of playing. Manlipuation seems too repeated.
====
Quote:
In any case, its missing so many things. Far to many gaps left unsaid...Kreia had also said the sith (such as Malak and Revan) weren't the true sith. They were followers of an idea. What happened to the actual race of the sith?
Let me repeat it. The threat you are facing is the True Sith (wheter it is remenats of an empire, the actual race of the Sith, or just holocrons)...who is led by Exile and Revan. The True Sith leads a bunch of legions to destroy the Jedi Academcy, and you are forced on a crusade to find the True Sith and where Revan and Exile is located. You are trained by Disciple/Handmadien, a student of Exile.


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Originally Posted by The Onion
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Old 02-10-2007, 06:36 PM   #21
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I can't really see Revan and the Exile turning against the Republic, in Revan's case again. he's done it once, learning from his mistakes perhaps? Can't see it myself, though it's certainly well thought out.
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Old 02-10-2007, 08:05 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Would Lust be tolerated?
Among the sith? I would think so. Unlike the jedi, the sith embrace passion instead of denying it. But they reject the concepts of trust and compassion, because they are seen as signs of weakness. And especially trust would seem to be a condition for true love, I think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
I'm thinking more of The Exile's followers, the "Lost Jedi" that would either be with the LS or DS thanks to the infulence of The Exile.
They would be jedi only if the exile is LS then. If the exile is DS, they would be dark jedi or sith. And if the exile is LS, then he goes off to the unknown regions instead of establishing a new jedi order.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
With personal prefence, I really don't want them to abandon this Force Destruction subplot just like that, with The Exile just giving up the crusade. My DSM Exile is a fan of Kriea, and complimented her, "Man, and I thought I was cold." It's unclear if The Exile would work for Kreia's crusade or not, but I hope that he would.
Well, it seems to me that is one of those things that cannot happen, since it is left entirely optional according to the player's preference, but without letting it progress in any way in the game itself. I dare say no LS exile would adopt Kreia's ideals. And a DS exile is more likely to kill Kreia for her manipulation and reject her ideals just to spite her, I think. Indeed, the DS Exile does kick her over the edge so that she falls to her death - not exactly what I'd call a vote of support...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Attribute it to the Writers, the true Will of the Force. But isn't this why I referred to Jolee here. So let consider: what if Leia falls to the Dark Side and take over the Empire and form the Sith Republic? You say she will die, but when? You do not say, but you defer the question to the Writers. Of course, she will die, and the Sith Republic will fall, it is the cycle that many people believe in.
That still doesn't preclude that someone else couldn't kill a Sith ruler. Heck, imperial officers tried to kill Vader (although they do fail miserably), and in the plot of the Tie Fighter computer game, Admiral Zaarin would have killed the emperor if not stopped by the player. Heck, even RotJ actually manages to undo this great need for Luke as "the one" to destroy Vader and Sidious, since they would have died along with Luke anyway, when the rebels destroyed the second Death Star. Nothing Luke did influenced that in any way that we know of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
But isn't what makes a good game or a bad game BASED on what people believe? If everyone love it, that is good. LOTR and Harry Potter books were the exception, but what about the norm? Someone writes a really good story, but others shrug it off...so maybe it really isn't such a good story after all. And, don't forget that LOTR and Harry Potter has fans too, and that the designers of those books knows how to make it so that fans are happy...without actually pandering to them.
No, Rowling has made it clear that her plot is essentially done and that it won't be changed, no matter whether people like it or not. Indeed, I've seen her say that she has received letters from fans who did not think one of the books was "up to the usual standard", and Rowling wrote her back saying she should feel free not to read any of the subsequent novels.

In Tolkien's case it is pointless to even consider, since Tolkien wrote the entire story before releasing the first novel. Heck, he didn't even want to write three novels - to him it was just one huge story, "The Lord of the Rings." It was only at the insistence of the publishers that the story was made into three books instead of one.

Or how about the new Bond movie? The diehard fans HATED the idea of Craig in that role. I mean, just look at a page like this: www.danielcraigisnotbond.com

Yet despite the objection, the new "Casino Royale" is actually the best selling Bond movie yet from what I hear.

Lots of Battlestar Galactica HATED the idea of the reimagined show Ron Moore had in mind. Many still do. But the new show is a success anyway.

Meanwhile, Star Trek did try pandering to the fans in the last few movies and shows...

The defense rests

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Already, Obisidan, in their hidden labs, has came up with the solution to this debacale and already written the whole K3 storyline that would make everyone, including you and me, happy. Meanwhile, we're still arguging.
That's entirely speculative. Given the ending of TSL, I would suspect that Avellone at least had a basic idea of what KotOR3 might be about, but an entire solution? I doubt it...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
And just because you may personally think it is a good plot, if other people do not, and if most people do not, then maybe it really isn't a good plot, is it?
Pardon me, but isn't that a truism? I could just as well ask you that question... or anyone else for that matter...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Does that ACTUALLY effect really key events in TSL? Er...no. It would be nice if they do so, but I rather have them put effort into making the game better rather than accounting for every single choice.
Yes, but would it have been impossible to add stuff that allowed these characters to augment the plot a little? I don't think so. After all, KotOR had fairly different endings depending on alignment. In TSL its only really a question of which ending cutscene you get to watch...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Can you send me a URL of that story please, so that I can comment on it?
Normally I wouldn't, but since it's pertinent in this case and I did refer to it, it seems only fair that you get a chance to see it. Be warned, though, that (in case you haven't noticed yet, which is unlikely) I can be very verbose and write very long posts, and my plot reflects that to a fairly large degree. In short, it's very, very, very long. You have been warned

Anyway, here's the link to the overview:
http://forums.obsidianent.com/index....c=35628&st=467

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Superman has fears and flaws. Spiderman has fears and flaws. Exile has fears and flaws. Revan has fears and flaws. Even the Jedi Padawn has fears and flaws.

All of them just have a "special" ability that puts them above the norm...but other than that, they are human. Even your verison of the Jedi Padawan has something special...the ability to know exactly what someone is feeling, to know his innermost thoughts and secrets. This Jedi Padawn then uses this as emotional blackmail to get rid of Exile and Revan, becoming a manlipuative bastard all his own.
Yeah, well Batman has no special or unique abilities, and he still manages to pull through somehow. The same is true for James Bond, Jason Bourne, MacGyver, Frodo and Sam, and host of other characters we could mention...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
They don't. The deaths are declared unhistorical, does not happen, and usually, it exist for gameplay reasons (a game is no fun when you are ACTUALLY powerful, see K2). Not in a canonical LS ending, and not in an DS ending as well.
The point is that every single attack is supposed to present some sort of potential danger to these characters. If they did not, the rules state that they would get no experience. It is by overcoming those obstacles the characters rise to greatness. If those obstacles do present af challenge, then there is no experience for the player and the character doesn't grow more powerful. The heroes are heroes, after all, because they faced such terrible dangers and yet prevailed against overwhelming odds. No sith lord is feared for killing scores of gizka

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
...In the end, I don't actually see convicing Revan and Exile to give up their crusade, no matter how, as a very good story arc, fitting of their characters, fitting of their warrior spirit. I just don't. Redeemed Sith Lords are a dime a dozen...once you fall to the DS, you should stay there, and you should die there. Revan and Exile are good warriors, I don't want to let them fall into the weakness of being just plain stupid.
I think of DS Revan having made that choice long ago and so being beyond redemption. If you left Revan as LS in KotOR, however, then he is DS only because he sacrificed himself to the DS so that he could fight the true Sith from within with their own weapons. He could then be redeemed, although he would need something to remind him what he was fighting to save in the first place. That's where Bastila and Carth come into the picture.


"It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built" - Kreia

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Old 02-10-2007, 11:50 PM   #23
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To me, seeing SilentScope001 and Jediphile type more than one long post in the same thread is nothing new. I would have loved to have chipped in my two cents earlier to this discussion, but going through the annoying habit of quoting, typing a massive, and I mean massive post and pretty much just repeating what youse have already said, is something Iíll ah, pass on.

About almost two months ago or so, a similar discussion about the things addressed in this thread took place on the Obsidian forums, and I was involved in it. While the civil war idea, which I discussed on Obsidian, to show that itís entirely possible to do a KotOR III story without canonizing Revan and the Exileís genders and alignments, was well received by most members who hadnít heard of the idea for reasons that Iíll state later on in this post, there were two main problems that people had with the idea.

http://forums.obsidianent.com/index....dpost&p=732836

a) It was argued that it effectively nullifies LS Revan and LS Exile of the previous KotORís, which I donít agree with at all.

b) The idea of redeeming Revan who is set as LS is repetitive and lame, and the idea of redeeming the Exile who is set as LS wasnít well liked, since itís argued that the theme of redemption in Star Wars is used far too often, and I agree that it is.

Now first off, this Ďcivil warí idea is a great idea, since it ties things up nicely and makes sense. It:

-Explains what Revan has been doing all this time. Causing or getting involved in civil war amongst the True Sith gives his/her affiliated but weak faction at the time from known space the time to recover and rebuild. You could say that Revan is delaying their attack, a smart move.

-LS Revan has to make a sacrifice to the DS, otherwise he/she canít recruit allies or be recruited by a True Sith faction. Besides, you canít expect to wage or be involved in civil war amongst the True Sith without DS traits such as coldness and cruelty.

-LS Exile will also have to adapt some Jack Bauer/ Punisher way of thinking when in True Sith regions. "To defeat Evil, you must become Evil."

-Revan has got his/her pre-KotOR Sith Lord mask and robes to use. You could give the Exile Darth Nihilusí mask and robes. If appearance is an issue, the civil war idea plus these costumes will solve that for them, making it easier for devs.

-Now you would only need four voice actors for them, two males and two females. Also making LS Revan/LS Exile act in a Punisher type of way would reduce problems with different dialogues. Otherwise you would have to spend a terrible amount of resources for their own dialogue trees for each alignment. You donít have to change as much with the civil war idea.

-It also resolves Kreia's words as to why LS Revan and LS Exile must go alone and leave all their loved ones behind. Just how exactly are you going to to burn down cities with full of innocent people if you have to, when your with someone like LS Bastila? That would indeed be doom for LS Bastila loving male Revan, since he couldn't do that then. Same with other romances/genders combos.

-Punisher Revan/Exile would also resolve the problem with cooperation between LS Revan and DS Exile and vice versa.

Now, I fail to see how the civil war idea nullifies LS Revan and LS Exile since it doesnít undo your choices with them in KotOR and TSL. You see, if you go along with who the True Sith are and this whole civil war concept, youíd know that LS Revan and LS Exile really have no choice but to go DS to fight in this war.

How the hell else are they supposed to fight the True Sith? If you assume there are at least hundreds, perhaps thousands, if not millions of them, well put it this way, two people against four figured armies and onwards is just a no no. In other words, they canít beat the True Sith all by themselves.

I agree that the theme of redemption happens far too often in Star Wars though. Many people donít like the idea of having to redeem Revan again, and fair enough. Iíd rather not see any DSíders turn back to the LS at all in KotOR III.

Xard from Obsidian has said that thereís no need to redeem LS Revan and LS Exile, since theyíre just this Ďfake DS Punisher Sithí and arenít really proper DS in the first place. So while he, like me, agrees with your ideas and all Jediphile, he differs with you on this, and Iím kind of sitting on the fence with it.

What do you think? Could LS Revan and LS Exile go DS without falling, eliminating the need to redeem them in KotOR III? As we know, it has been speculated, because of what we are told in TSL, that Revan may have sacrificed himself/herself to the DS, and even if you believe that, no one should be arguing that Revan never fell to the DS, because as evidenced by his/her actions, Revan certainly did.

Could LS Revan use the DS but avoid falling this time around? Iím sure LS Exile could, since he/she could just cut himself/herself off from the force if he/she sensed he/she was in danger of falling.

What are your thoughts champ? Judging from something youíve already said in this thread, you most likely donít think they could avoid falling, right? Or in any case, at least stop themselves from attacking whoever their allies are in known space.

I could go on about more stuff, but this will do for nowÖ


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Old 02-11-2007, 06:52 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
-Now you would only need four voice actors for them, two males and two females. Also making LS Revan/LS Exile act in a Punisher type of way would reduce problems with different dialogues. Otherwise you would have to spend a terrible amount of resources for their own dialogue trees for each alignment. You donít have to change as much with the civil war idea.
Actually, as someone pointed out the other day, if Exile is turned into a neo-Nihilus, then Exile would just speak "Nihilus-speak" and you wouldn't need a voice-actor as such - just reuse Nihilus' "speech" from TSL and provide the responses as text only like it is done for all the aliens in the KotOR games. For people who complain that Revan shouldn't speak, well, Revan DID speak in KotOR, so we do know what his/her voice sounds like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
Now, I fail to see how the civil war idea nullifies LS Revan and LS Exile since it doesnít undo your choices with them in KotOR and TSL. You see, if you go along with who the True Sith are and this whole civil war concept, youíd know that LS Revan and LS Exile really have no choice but to go DS to fight in this war.

How the hell else are they supposed to fight the True Sith? If you assume there are at least hundreds, perhaps thousands, if not millions of them, well put it this way, two people against four figured armies and onwards is just a no no. In other words, they canít beat the True Sith all by themselves.
Yes. I've actually been considering than maybe DS Revan should just be the leader of the true Sith that must ultimately be destroyed in KotOR3 - he accepted the dark side in the Rakatan temple, and now he is evil incarnate. LS Revan has sacrificed himself to the dark side for the greater good, however, and has not fallen so far.

There are other things you could do to reflect alignment choices of the previous games. For example, in my plot I had the group go to Revan's hideout on Khar Shian in order to find the way to Ziost. If the Exile is DS, however, you could go to Malachor V instead. Just use the same characters with very little differences and run different movies/cutscenes leading to those planets. That's a notable difference right there, because there will be no Malachor V to visit if the Exile is LS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
What do you think? Could LS Revan and LS Exile go DS without falling, eliminating the need to redeem them in KotOR III? As we know, it has been speculated, because of what we are told in TSL, that Revan may have sacrificed himself/herself to the DS, and even if you believe that, no one should be arguing that Revan never fell to the DS, because as evidenced by his/her actions, Revan certainly did.

Could LS Revan use the DS but avoid falling this time around? Iím sure LS Exile could, since he/she could just cut himself/herself off from the force if he/she sensed he/she was in danger of falling.
I would say no, because it defeats the power of the dark side completely. A consistent theme not only in Star Wars but in most popular fiction is that you can't do evil without becoming evil. It's the same with the ring in LOTR - Boromir wants to use as a weapon against Sauron and must pay the ultimate price for it. Ulic couldn't resist the dark side, Revan couldn't, and Luke couldn't either (though he didn't fall so far that he could not be redeemed). No one can. You could claim the Exile did, but the price for that was just as high. I will be really disappointed if Revan can just casually shrug off the dark side and turn back to the light on his own. LS Revan would be able to do only if he is forced by his old friends to remember what he was fighting for in the first place, and DS Revan wouldn't do it at all.


"It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built" - Kreia

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Old 02-11-2007, 08:34 AM   #25
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I'm sorry to interrupt, BUT..........
It seems nobody wants to acknowledge:

"I will not let this republic that has stood for a thousand years be split in two," implies that the republic in the movies didn't stand before that. Since the KOTOR timelie is about 4,000 years BBY; based on this observation, it stands to at least reason that this 'old republic' is a different one than in the movies.

Yeah, I've heard they "could" be the same and that:

1) Oh, george Lucas's bad. He forgot.
--Uhh, no. The games are based around his movies, not the other way around. DUH!

2) History became too distorted, because history is all just some mass deception and a big conspiracy.
--Did you eat paint chips as a kid, MORON?

The happy-go-lucky "have it all" victiory of the LS needs to die...LS should be a bittersweet victory. The storyline should be about this republic becoming corrupt...and diminishing. Remember, the republic of the prequel needs ashes from which to rise. The ashes should be from something before it, no? LS end should entail sort of a "Damn, the republic is dead" sort of thing. Plotting/Decrying that, someday, another republic shall rise!

I wasn't sure before, but now, the more I think about it, the more I think this one should have Bane as the main bad guy.

A DS ending, you speed off towards the outer rim, in all your evil glory with the shattered republic behind you, and you never to be seen again. Cackling at the misfortune of your betrayed ex-bretheren jedi.

I'd love to see more of our past friends, Inasmuch it is a pleasure to immortalize the heroes that deserve it (as well as the villains). Howeve, it really should be moving forth. Enough about Revan and The Exile!
I'm sort of sorry that I have to be so abrasive as to smack you all in the face with a steel gauntlet, but I really feel this issue needs addressing.
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Old 02-11-2007, 09:59 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTA:SWcity
"I will not let this republic that has stood for a thousand years be split in two," implies that the republic in the movies didn't stand before that. Since the KOTOR timelie is about 4,000 years BBY; based on this observation, it stands to at least reason that this 'old republic' is a different one than in the movies.

Yeah, I've heard they "could" be the same and that:

1) Oh, george Lucas's bad. He forgot.
--Uhh, no. The games are based around his movies, not the other way around. DUH!

2) History became too distorted, because history is all just some mass deception and a big conspiracy.
It does establish something about the republic, but what I don't see is how this is relevant to the KotOR games?

KotOR is about 4000 years before the movies. The fall of the Sith Empire is about a thousand years before that. That still leaves an awful lot of holes and unknowns in Star Wars history. Over time, I'm sure all the blanks will be filled, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTA:SWcity
The happy-go-lucky "have it all" victiory of the LS needs to die...LS should be a bittersweet victory. The storyline should be about this republic becoming corrupt...and diminishing. Remember, the republic of the prequel needs ashes from which to rise. The ashes should be from something before it, no? LS end should entail sort of a "Damn, the republic is dead" sort of thing. Plotting/Decrying that, someday, another republic shall rise!

I wasn't sure before, but now, the more I think about it, the more I think this one should have Bane as the main bad guy.
What?!? Excuse me, but Bane is a millennia before the movies. What you suggest means that almost 3000 years should just be casually skipped over between TSL and KotOR3. Besides, Darth Bane 's story is already told in the "Jedi vs. Sith" comic books.

And, of course, passing over 3000 years means that ANY plot left hanging in TSL is abandoned, because the galaxy doesn't stand still for that long. It definitely means no Revan, no Exile, no Bastila, etc., because clearly they're all dead by then.

I agree with you that we don't need an all-happy all-well ending for KotOR3. I don't think we got that in TSL, though. It would be okay if victory takes sacrifice. I could see Canderous be killed in a great war, for example. I admit I don't like him much (since I don't care much for the semi-fascist disposition of the Mandalorians), but he could lead the Mandalorians in an attack of vengeance for being used by the Sith in the past. Seeing characters like T3 or Atton die would also be tragic. Same for the LS Exile.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTA:SWcity
A DS ending, you speed off towards the outer rim, in all your evil glory with the shattered republic behind you, and you never to be seen again. Cackling at the misfortune of your betrayed ex-bretheren jedi.
Yes. Albeit that might be a little too close to the DS ending of Jedi Academy, methinks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTA:SWcity
I'd love to see more of our past friends, Inasmuch it is a pleasure to immortalize the heroes that deserve it (as well as the villains). Howeve, it really should be moving forth. Enough about Revan and The Exile!
I'm sort of sorry that I have to be so abrasive as to smack you all in the face with a steel gauntlet, but I really feel this issue needs addressing.
Actually, I'd like to revisit all the companions and major characters from the previous games (that are alive, of course). The fates of Revan and exile should be settled in KotOR3. Not necessarily meaning that they should do, but their problems should be resolved, I think.


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Old 02-11-2007, 10:08 AM   #27
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I refuse to comment on the grounds that I'm not a fan of starting in a rebuilt order, but mostly seeing Revan and Exile again (they're like, so last year(s)).
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Old 02-11-2007, 10:36 AM   #28
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Quote:
1) Oh, george Lucas's bad. He forgot.
--Uhh, no. The games are based around his movies, not the other way around. DUH!
...Uh, no. George Lucas forgets. He doesn't read the EU.

After George Lucas made that big boo-boo mistake, saying the Republic lasted for 1000 years, the EU made a retcon, creating the whole Russan Reformation, having the Republic be reformed 1000 years ago. They admitted it as such.

I have to go and do homework, but I will reply to your posts, Jediphile, and read your story, but I think I would like to list some greviences:

1. Abandoning the Force Subplot, Defeating the Purpose of Kreia's Trials, Creating a Reborn Darth Nihlius That Is Easy to Destroy. (I may accept that, but not by much...)

2. Able to Defeat Exile and Revan Easily by Merely Talking to Them. That's just absurd to me...

3. Not Having A Main Character that Has ANY Sort of Notable Special Power That Makes Him Unique. It seems stupid of how could some random grunt be able to defeat the Dark Lord of the True Sith. Think about it, this is some AVERAGE Jedi. Why not make "Assains of the Old Empire" where you play as a canon-fooder Assassin (maybe Atton, or maybe somebody else) and have the main goal of killing off Exile? You know, playing as those Sith Assasins that get easily slain by you. You make the Exile look weak, and I wonder about replacing the Assaisns.

You see, and let me repeat it, your choices do not matter. You are the only one that can stop what is to come, but once it comes, others can intervene. You talk about how Princess Leia will soon get killed, I'll ask how long? 1 year? 10 years? You note that all the coup attempts against Vader were incompenent, and so useless.

Oh, and a retcon of that battle had Darth Palpatine using Battle Mediation (I hate that...but yes, that what the retcon says)...So everyone is happy that Vader's murder of Palpatine is actaully useful!

And your "books" example, they're books. You don't actually play as any of the characters in those books, and roleplay as them. This is why those writers are able to get away with placing random characters, having them rise in power, and defeat them...because you do get the implication that they may very well be the only one.

Batman and McGuvyer have the superpower of high intelligence to allow them to do what they can done. Don't tell me you know how to design a uber-fast car and construct nuclear bombs out of paperclips. Their IQ level acts as such a superpower. I do not know anything about Frodo and Grodo, but I do think maybe there is something else out there that you are missing...

Anyway, we play as the characters in games. We play games to have fun...and many people have fun by stroking their ego of the character. (This is why there is Revan fanboyism...people play as Revan and stroke their ego by making Revan strong) If we do not have such a stroking of ego, why bother even playing this game at all?

If you are the only one that can stop the True Sith, you have a motivation to continue the crusade...instead of just relying on Revan and Exile to do the dirty work for you. You have your ego stroked, and you know that your life is important. If I don't feel as if my life is important, I do not feel a need to play, since my role can quite easily be replaced by some other random Jedi...and, more importantly, the True Sith are weak.

You fail to answer that point well. If anyone, and I mean anyone, can destroy the True Sith, then why did Exile rush in to help Revan? Why did Revan even fell to the DS to counter the True Sith? It sounds absurd that they failed, and yet you succeded...but it sounds more abusrd that they were even worried about the True Sith in the first place, if anyone can destroy it. The True Sith is supposed to be set up to be an awesome evil...so if it can be destroyed by anyone, well, what?

I already concluded the True Sith would be annilhated or defeated at the end of the game somehow, but it's the how that matters...or even the If. What if they actually have the True Sith win? That would be quite awesome, upsetting fanboys everywhere. But I know such an ending won't exist, due to the egoism of the players. You cannot make such a game, because I read 1984 for depressing fiction and feeling small, and I play games to have fun and feel important.

Quote:
Actually, I'd like to revisit all the companions and major characters from the previous games (that are alive, of course). The fates of Revan and exile should be settled in KotOR3. Not necessarily meaning that they should do, but their problems should be resolved, I think.
I don't. Why bring back them? Their story is told. Everything that should be told must be told for the sake of the plot. I want total focus on the True Sith, and not on the other characters.


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Old 02-11-2007, 01:51 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
1. Abandoning the Force Subplot, Defeating the Purpose of Kreia's Trials, Creating a Reborn Darth Nihlius That Is Easy to Destroy. (I may accept that, but not by much...)
Well, given that you've already said you like that subplot, this is obvious. However, it does not have priority in the greater plot of the games, and TSL in no way makes the Exile embrace Kreia's ideals, so while you may like for the Exile do that, there is no reason why any other player should want the Exile to do so.

Or to use your own words, "And just because you may personally think it is a good plot, if other people do not, and if most people do not, then maybe it really isn't a good plot, is it?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
2. Able to Defeat Exile and Revan Easily by Merely Talking to Them. That's just absurd to me...
I have neither suggested nor implied that, so please refrain from putting words in my mouth. All I said is that redeeming Revan and Exile through conversation would be possible if they were LS in the previous games. That cannot be taken to imply "defeat." Besides, I already said that if they were DS in the past, then they cannot be redeemed and must be killed. And obviously, if the new protagonist is DS, then they are both in his way on the rise to power and must be killed, in which case they deserve the same fate as all sith lords - betrayal and a knife in the back... Just as Sidious did to Plagueis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
3. Not Having A Main Character that Has ANY Sort of Notable Special Power That Makes Him Unique. It seems stupid of how could some random grunt be able to defeat the Dark Lord of the True Sith. Think about it, this is some AVERAGE Jedi. Why not make "Assains of the Old Empire" where you play as a canon-fooder Assassin (maybe Atton, or maybe somebody else) and have the main goal of killing off Exile? You know, playing as those Sith Assasins that get easily slain by you. You make the Exile look weak, and I wonder about replacing the Assaisns.
James T. Kirk was killed by falling from a bridge. King Theoden was killed when his horse fell on him. Saruman was killed by his own henchman stabbing him in the back. And, of course, we should not forget that most of the uber-powerful jedi masters in RotS were killed by their own clonetrooper "grunts". You could claim they were not ordinary people, but they were no match next to a full jedi master.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
You see, and let me repeat it, your choices do not matter. You are the only one that can stop what is to come, but once it comes, others can intervene. You talk about how Princess Leia will soon get killed, I'll ask how long? 1 year? 10 years? You note that all the coup attempts against Vader were incompenent, and so useless.
So a coup must succeed for it to be competent? I disagree completely. Admiral Zaarin very nearly killed the emperor with his treachery. Just because it did not succeed does not mean that it not present a genuine threat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Oh, and a retcon of that battle had Darth Palpatine using Battle Mediation (I hate that...but yes, that what the retcon says)...So everyone is happy that Vader's murder of Palpatine is actaully useful!
The problem with that is that the original trilogy was all done for more than a decade before anyone ever thought of battle meditation. And then it was only for Nomi Sunrider. It is also notable that not even the new movie trilogy demonstrate Palpatine's purported battle meditation in any way, nor does any of the other Star Wars material that I've ever seen or read.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
And your "books" example, they're books. You don't actually play as any of the characters in those books, and roleplay as them. This is why those writers are able to get away with placing random characters, having them rise in power, and defeat them...because you do get the implication that they may very well be the only one.
Oh, please. As plot-driven as the KotOR games are, it is absurd to suggest a major difference between protagonists in computer games and protagonists in books, movie or tv-shows. Sidious, Jack Bauer, Captain Kirk, Batman and hordes of other characters have plenty of fanboys out there. This is even more relevant for KotOR games than most other computer games, when you consider how very plot-driven and linear those games are. Just read the biographies of Revan and Exile on Wookieepedia. Do they read significantly different from those of Luke Skywalker (a movie character) or Mara Jade (a character only seen in the novels)? Of course not. Any complaint of how Revan or Exile were to die or be defeated would be just as relevant for any other beloved character in any other type of fiction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Batman and McGuvyer have the superpower of high intelligence to allow them to do what they can done. Don't tell me you know how to design a uber-fast car and construct nuclear bombs out of paperclips.
No, but nor can they...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Anyway, we play as the characters in games. We play games to have fun...and many people have fun by stroking their ego of the character. (This is why there is Revan fanboyism...people play as Revan and stroke their ego by making Revan strong) If we do not have such a stroking of ego, why bother even playing this game at all?
Because the plot is compelling and the characters are strongly written. You don't continue to play in order to boost your own ego, you play to discover the things that you don't yet understand and to see what happens next in the plot. Well, I know that I do, anyway. This is especially true in KotOR, where you have little or no knowledge of your character. Revan is amnesic, so finding out why you have these visions of him is enticing. The Exile is not amnesic, but might as well be, given that he never volunteers anything about his past, not even to the player who is supposed to role-play him. That was damned annoying in TSL, too, and put me off quite a bit. I heard all this stuff about my character's past that I was not allowed to know myself. The worst part was when you met Bao-Dur, and you have to choose between remembering him and not knowing who he is completely in the blind. Ludicrous. Terrible storytelling. The Exile would actually have worked better in a film or book than in a computer game for that reason alone - how the heck am I supposed to role-play a character, if his entire past and all his previous choices and opinions are kept secret from me?!? At least Revan had the excuse of being amnesic.

Besides, what ego are we stroking in TSL? The Exile ran away from Malachor V like a scared little puppy-dog and then hid under a rock for a decade. Wow! Some hero! He didn't even know that he cut his forcebonds himself, for crying out loud... How much more can a character possible be in denial about himself? Yeah, that's some major stroking of ego right there...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
If you are the only one that can stop the True Sith, you have a motivation to continue the crusade...instead of just relying on Revan and Exile to do the dirty work for you. You have your ego stroked, and you know that your life is important. If I don't feel as if my life is important, I do not feel a need to play, since my role can quite easily be replaced by some other random Jedi...and, more importantly, the True Sith are weak.
The true Sith are strong EXACTLY because you CAN'T do it alone - you need Revan and Exile to help you, either by making them fight to true Sith for their power or by making them side with you to save the Republic. There - stroking of ego for Revan, Exile, AND your new character right there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
You fail to answer that point well. If anyone, and I mean anyone, can destroy the True Sith, then why did Exile rush in to help Revan?
We don't know that he did. Kreia only implies that it will be necessary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Why did Revan even fell to the DS to counter the True Sith? It sounds absurd that they failed, and yet you succeded...but it sounds more abusrd that they were even worried about the True Sith in the first place, if anyone can destroy it. The True Sith is supposed to be set up to be an awesome evil...so if it can be destroyed by anyone, well, what?
This one is pretty simple to answer, actually - you can do it because Revan, and possibly Exile too, already did most of the hard work. But in order to fight the true Sith, they both had to be DS, or they would have no allies in true Sith space. As such, they both want the power of the true Sith for themselves now - saving the republic is no longer a consideration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
I don't. Why bring back them? Their story is told. Everything that should be told must be told for the sake of the plot. I want total focus on the True Sith, and not on the other characters.
Revan and Exile are still out there, and their companions could be instrumental in dealing with them. And since you need the assistance of Revan and Exile to fight the true Sith, one way or another, that would make their old companions relevant. Quite simple, really. And it takes nothing of the focus away from the true Sith - of course they will be the major badguys. But it won't be all about them. Was every scene in KotOR about Malak or about Sion and Nihilus in TSL? No, they weren't. And letting the true Sith keep a little of their mystery does not sound like such a bad idea to me.


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Old 02-11-2007, 02:52 PM   #30
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Okay I read somewhere about the idea of True Sith being more an idea than an actual race.
As much as I hate the idea of Revan/Exile being seen or fought in game for KOTORIII... what are peoples thoughts of this....

Final or near final game situation. You're fighting through some trippy true-sith tomb location; fighting some big nasty's and maybe elements of past etc. (basicaly a development of the one in TSL) The last chambers have pivitol plot points regarding R and E's fates. (I took Jediphile's idea of them falling to or remaining on thedark side for the scenario.) In the last chambers are:

- Blurry visions of figures in cloaks being affected sith style. Haunting echoes of screams and lightsabers etc. Revan "ghosts"
- Revan's last known journal. In it are notes of the mind affecting power of the location. "I found what appeared to be my exiled old friend... the Jedi I once knew had lost all reason and control... Became an entity of pure evil, a beast. It attacked me. I was sorry to do it.. I had no choice... I now fear for my own mind in this place... " blah blah. Yup, naming no genders, rev just killed the exile.
- A heavily rotted exile corpse with some special items on it (sexed-up lightsaber or whatnot)

In the very last chamber you find, cloaked of course, none other than Darth Revan. Gender is out of the window on this one. The time rev spent in this chamber has left not much better off than Nihlus so voices are irrelevent (although preferably still audiable).
In a fight not too different to the one with Sion. Each round leads to dialogue where you decide Revan's past. If he/she was light for you you can try and redeem them, if dark, you can end them. If you're a bad guy you can also weaken him/her with taunts etc.

Feel free to rip it to shreds hehe. Whether they're in it or not, I'd like new main villains so as to keep this more a treat for old fans and not confusing for n00bs.
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Old 02-11-2007, 03:06 PM   #31
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^^

The major purpose of your suggestion seems to make Revan's and Exile's gender not be a problem. And quite honestly, I just don't see why it would be a problem in any way. Hence I don't see why either of them would need to be dead at the beginning of the next game. There is no reason to.


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Old 02-11-2007, 04:05 PM   #32
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To have the exile dead eliminates gender, appearance, voice and possibly alignment issues if done properly.
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Old 02-11-2007, 04:14 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henz
To have the exile dead eliminates gender, appearance, voice and possibly alignment issues if done properly.
But why is that necessary? What purpose does it serve? There is no reason for that, at least not that I can see.


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Old 02-11-2007, 04:21 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
But why is that necessary? What purpose does it serve? There is no reason for that, at least not that I can see.
Mostly, it avoids problems of inconsistancy in the game series. It can be used as a plot device to make the killer appear more dangerous looking in terms of story too if that interests you.
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Old 02-11-2007, 04:53 PM   #35
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Well, I don't see that there are any inconsistencies that need to be resolved. The Exile's story is pretty much the same regardless of which gender or alignment you choose (certainly there is less difference than there was for Revan in KotOR), and the differences are so minor that I don't see a problem in incorporating it all into a KotOR3 plot.


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Old 02-11-2007, 04:59 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Jediphile
It does establish something about the republic, but what I don't see is how this is relevant to the KotOR games?
It's just that so many other SW fans think that the KOTOR old republic and the old republic in the films are one and the same--totally forgetting the battle of Ruusan. Make you wanna smack'em upside the head because they don't pay attention.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
KotOR is about 4000 years before the movies. The fall of the Sith Empire is about a thousand years before that. That still leaves an awful lot of holes and unknowns in Star Wars history. Over time, I'm sure all the blanks will be filled, though.

What?!? Excuse me, but Bane is a millennia before the movies. What you suggest means that almost 3000 years should just be casually skipped over between TSL and KotOR3. Besides, Darth Bane 's story is already told in the "Jedi vs. Sith" comic books.

And, of course, passing over 3000 years means that ANY plot left hanging in TSL is abandoned, because the galaxy doesn't stand still for that long. It definitely means no Revan, no Exile, no Bastila, etc., because clearly they're all dead by then.
Sorry. I guess I'm just a little impatient--my problem is not anger management, it's 'idiot' management--and thankfully you and a good number of other people here are NOT part of that idiotic SW fan crowd of which I speak. You know, the ones who twist and contort everything to match their view of how it all should be--then start mixing in other universes that are UN-starwarsy. I guess they are free to do what they want--but they are not free to preach it to others like us who actually respect and follow the true storyline.
I hope them 'holes are filled--'cuz having a contradictory storyline sucks......I don't think anybody will argue that much.

I guess I just want to find the next great fight and beat the living crap out of Darth Bane. Sorry if that sounds a little too mandalorian for you--I like Canderous.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
I agree with you that we don't need an all-happy all-well ending for KotOR3. I don't think we got that in TSL, though. It would be okay if victory takes sacrifice. I could see Canderous be killed in a great war, for example. I admit I don't like him much (since I don't care much for the semi-fascist disposition of the Mandalorians), but he could lead the Mandalorians in an attack of vengeance for being used by the Sith in the past. Seeing characters like T3 or Atton die would also be tragic. Same for the LS Exile.
Truthfully, while Canderous is that way, he endears himself to me because 1) he solves problems without the crap
2) he recognizes when the existential tide is shifitng
3) he may follow good leadership, but he's no weakling yes-man.
4) amidst all the killing, he still has a twinge of honor.

Every good story and victory needs tragedy and sacrafice. That is why SW is so appealing to me. Without suffering, happiness and fulfillment is impossible. There is admittedly unnecessary sufferings (Vader), but in general, something has GOT to give. Otherwise, victory is not worth fighting for, and the peace is flat--everyone is spoiled.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Yes. Albeit that might be a little too close to the DS ending of Jedi Academy, methinks.
DAMN YOU! I don't have THAT game yet and you are spoiling it for me already. Well, you couldn't have known that. .....but still..... Shme on you!

DON'T say anymore--and if you or anyone else does, I hope you get yelled at by the moderators! Especially if I have to see it!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Actually, I'd like to revisit all the companions and major characters from the previous games (that are alive, of course). The fates of Revan and exile should be settled in KotOR3. Not necessarily meaning that they should do, but their problems should be resolved, I think.

Finally... someone whose sentiments are not that of incesent ramblings of fanboys and fangirls. Thank you--at least I know now that I'm not the only one who feels that way. I played with the idea of revan and exile being the bosses--but now I just think it should really move on.



Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
...Uh, no. George Lucas forgets. He doesn't read the EU.
That was my quote, buddy. Not Jediphile. I think he pretty much straightened out what I thought was wrong.

Do your 'homework' then, I look forward to seeing what you come up with.
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Old 02-11-2007, 08:26 PM   #37
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Its not too bad
But its not something i'd like to see in the next Kotor
I'd rate it 6/10
I don't like the idea of fighting against Exile and i especially dislike the idea of fighting against Revan

edit:

Oh and... enough of the Ebon Hawk already
I want a different ship this time
And i want to fly it myself for christ's sake!

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Originally Posted by The Architect
Umm...WTF? Obsidian doesn't make very good KotOR's? That is wrong, for two reasons:

a) That is not a fact and is your opinion only
b) They've only made one KotOR

It's LA's fault that the ending was cut to bits, not Obsidians, and if Obsidian completed the plot as originally intended by Avellone, IMO, it would have been much better than KotOR. I still think it's better than KotOR anyway, even the way it ended up. BioWare will not make another KotOR game ever again.
If its not obsidian's fault then how come the other obsidian game (nwn2) has exactly the same problems?
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Old 02-11-2007, 11:26 PM   #38
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Listen, I have a message typed out to Jediphile, but I cannot post it currently, due to some computer troubles. But the fact is, I think this debate should end. After I post, no more. There is no point to continue, we understand each other's viewpoint, and that is all. Maybe some other people, like the Arcitherct, can comment and say who is right or wrong, but we all excerise our right to choose if we want to buy the game or not.

If I dislike K3 when it comes out, I don't buy it simple.


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Old 02-12-2007, 02:12 AM   #39
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Its not too bad
But its not something i'd like to see in the next Kotor
I'd rate it 6/10
I don't like the idea of fighting against Exile and i especially dislike the idea of fighting against Revan

Oh and... enough of the Ebon Hawk already
I want a different ship this time
And i want to fly it myself for christ's sake!
Well, I have a thread on ideas for sith lord bosses, the one ending in please nothing rediculous......which I believe architect commented on?
I have nulled repeatedly over Rev and exile. I have some curiosity about it and what it'd be like, but then again...I'm not too hot for it... It wasn't even my idea originally, as a matter of fact.

You sound like you have some ideas--I'd like to hear if you don't mind.
So far we have discussed Women--mostly going into hotties...
We have discussed a sort of fog or entity without a body.
I have a few ideas all my own--but I think we all do.

I read on the sith lords issue of star wars insider 'the tome of the sith'... and it said that the dark jedi who were exiled after the great hyperspace war (Naga Sadow, Ludo Kareesh, Ajunta Pall, Marka Rangos) and their followers found a species called sith and they intermingled and evolved. The dark jedi proclaimed themselves the lords of the sith.

Later in an invasion, they pretty well beat down the republic, but they eventually fell...and the original species went extinct. This is also in the visual guide, released in 2005, which is pretty accurate.

I guess after that assault, for some time there were small wars, but, I guess most of them were sith fighting amongst themselves and each other--too much to be a threat and the jedi would just wipe them out or convert them at leisure.

It was not until Exar Kun that any sith were "worthy" of the title 'sith lord'. Then KOTORs 1&2...and we're looking at 3 right now. Then much later Kaan and his brotherhood and Bane and all that.

Then the thoiusand years of the republic in the movies and the rest is history---or the future.

That is my understanding.

I guess if everything is supposed to boil over into the sith empire, we should be seeing more corruption in politics. I hate politics.
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Old 02-12-2007, 05:31 AM   #40
reven0123
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good idea's lots of room for flexability by them not being to heavily detailed.


"Savior, conqueror, hero, villain. You are all things, RevanÖ and yet you are nothing. In the end, you belong to neither the light nor the darkness. You will forever stand alone." Darth Malak
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