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Old 02-12-2007, 07:39 AM   #41
khawk
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This thread has seen a lot of long posts lately which is good. I guess I should comment on it as well. I agree with Jediphile that Revan and the Exile should return in the next game.
Some people think it would be hard to bring them back, it isn't. Complicated maybe but there are various ways to get around the problems. A Civil war is one idea, currently I am working on a story in which the True Sith are not all powerful beings who could easily wipe out the republic. No, my vision of the true sith is one quiet primitive race but with knowledge of techniques in the force which is quiet terrible, maybe more terrible then even Darth Nihilus. I guess I should spoil more about it. The story isn't on line yet, rest assured I will post it when I am finished.
Other then that, I think we should neither have Revan / Exile

1) being able to defeat the True Sith
2) see one or both of them as rulers of the True Sith empire
3) or have them simply be killed off

I think the new PC should have some means of defeating the True Sith because he/she has some ability which makes him/her able to do just that which doesn't make him more powerful, certainly not.
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Old 02-12-2007, 10:18 AM   #42
SilentScope001
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For people hating the idea of fighting Exile/Revan, Im thinking of making another K3 Story, to see if I can attempt to fix the faults of the previous one.

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If its not obsidian's fault then how come the other obsidian game (nwn2) has exactly the same problems?
They are not good with storyline problems, specifically how to end a game and such.

And, for the most part, they did do NW1 correctly.
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Well, given that you've already said you like that subplot, this is obvious. However, it does not have priority in the greater plot of the games, and TSL in no way makes the Exile embrace Kreia's ideals, so while you may like for the Exile do that, there is no reason why any other player should want the Exile to do so.
But the Exile doesn't have to. All The Exile does is live and keep that wound open for Kreia to be happy, being an unnatural abbertion that will sooner or later be silenced the wound. But having The Exile close the wound himself defeat the whole purpose of TSL.

However, I am dropping this oppisiton, prescially because I have nothing to replace it. I just hate it, just all.

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Because the plot is compelling and the characters are strongly written.
I play a game for fun. A compelling plot and strongly written characters add to the fun. It's up to you, however, to prove that the plot is compelling...and plausible. If the plot is not compelling, people will not play. People hate K2 and don't play it, because they hate it, and see the plot as being idioitic and stupid.

You see The Exile as a weak character but I actually liked learning more about my character by Roleplaying as him. But, onto the reason why he is an ego-booster: The Exile is a Wound In The Force, and is able to destroy Nihlius because of it. The Exile is the Last of the Jedi...he's the only one that can resurrect it by training the "Lost Jedi" to take after him. The Exile really is important and key...

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James T. Kirk was killed by falling from a bridge. King Theoden was killed when his horse fell on him. Saruman was killed by his own henchman stabbing him in the back. And, of course, we should not forget that most of the uber-powerful jedi masters in RotS were killed by their own clonetrooper "grunts". You could claim they were not ordinary people, but they were no match next to a full jedi master.
How do you know if they really are uber-powerful Jedi? To me, they were "redshirts", who were created only so that they can be killed by the clonetroopers, and demonstrate how effective Code 66 is. The Jedi like Obi-Wan and Yoda were spared however...and I would bet Yoda is somewhat uber-powerful.

Also note that Star Terk was not about the Bridge That Kirk Fell Off. Kirk is famous, but the bridge is just that...a bridge. A plot device, that causes Kirk to die. Simple. Now, imagine a Star Trek Game where you play as the Bridge, and you go and train for that day when you are able to manlipuate yourself to cause Kirk to fall off the Bridge, knowing full well that Kirk could have fallen off any other bridge, and that you were selected to be the bridge due to plain old luck!

I would hate that game. But, your example had causes for the Jedi Padawan to be that Bridge. Something to laugh at, to stare at, but something that is not important. How lame.

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Oh, please. As plot-driven as the KotOR games are, it is absurd to suggest a major difference between protagonists in computer games and protagonists in books, movie or tv-shows.
But Exile and Revan are not protagonisits in K3, I'm not worried of them. I'm very worried of the Progrationist, of the Jedi Padawan. Actually, to me, the reason WHY you are able to destroy the enemies is a very important and key part of the plot. Leave that undeveloped, and well, I'll dislike the game intensly.

But you say you want to stop the fanboys from thinking that Exile and Revan are immortal? Then why not let Exile and Revan be killed off...without the needs of the Player? Why must you keep them alive, why must we talk to them, why must we face them, why we redeem or kill them? Listen, it's okay for Exile and Revan to die, but I don't want them to be killed by a Jedi Padawan who has no special powers other than an ability to "empathize" with others.

They can die during the events of K3, as they aid the player as NPCs, before being wiped out. They can become Force Ghosts, aiding the player in his quest. They can cause lots of damage and wreckage, and have followers who still obey Revan and Exile's orders in spirit...that much effect Revan and Exile has.

And if the True Sith ends them, we finally realize this is a threat that has to be stopped. And then, the Player will be able to stop them.

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The true Sith are strong EXACTLY because you CAN'T do it alone - you need Revan and Exile to help you, either by making them fight to true Sith for their power or by making them side with you to save the Republic. There - stroking of ego for Revan, Exile, AND your new character right there.
I don't want to stroke the ego of Revan and Exile. Revan and Exile's ego are stroked enough in K1 and K2, it is now the New Character's turn to have its ego stroked. In other words, this isn't Revan and Exile's game.

Expect, I don't see my New Character's ego being stroked. Maybe it is due to the fact that the True Sith would be easy to destroy, gameplay-wise. Since you offer no reason why the Player is the only one that can destroy the True Sith, (and even according to canon, the final battle where you battle the Leader of the True Sith...gets fought not by you, but by Darth Revan)...oh well. Not just that, but the New Character is reliant on Revan and Exile to weaken the Sith Empire...and the New Character is constantly reminded that he can be replaced by OTHER New Characters...

It's disappointing. To me, that's lazy storyline. I am not movivated to care for this character, nor should I. He's just some Jedi Padawan. Unimportant.

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No, but nor can they...
Uber-fast car: Represents The Batmobile.

Nuclear Bomb Made Out of Paperclips: Represents basically any device that McGuvyer can make to get him out of the predicemant he is in. I was sastirizing McGuvyer here.

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This one is pretty simple to answer, actually - you can do it because Revan, and possibly Exile too, already did most of the hard work. But in order to fight the true Sith, they both had to be DS, or they would have no allies in true Sith space. As such, they both want the power of the true Sith for themselves now - saving the republic is no longer a consideration.
But why not any OTHER Jedi Padawan? Why only you?

And it still make Exile and Revan look powerful and grand. I thought you hate fanboyism, but you are fueling it still.

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Revan and Exile are still out there, and their companions could be instrumental in dealing with them.
But why even BOTHER bringing them in? I don't want this to be a KOTOR Reunion, I want new characters, with new backstories that would be interesting. Really, K2 was a lot better since instead of us gaining Carth as a party member, we got Atton instead.

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I have neither suggested nor implied that, so please refrain from putting words in my mouth. All I said is that redeeming Revan and Exile through conversation would be possible if they were LS in the previous games. That cannot be taken to imply "defeat." Besides, I already said that if they were DS in the past, then they cannot be redeemed and must be killed. And obviously, if the new protagonist is DS, then they are both in his way on the rise to power and must be killed, in which case they deserve the same fate as all sith lords - betrayal and a knife in the back... Just as Sidious did to Plagueis.
Now THAT'S absurd.

Before, I was okay with your little "empathy" power. Okay, so you slowly manlipuate or redeem Exile and Revan onto your side. Now, suppose I like the Dark Side (let admit it, we all do). I then have my Jedi Padawan murder Exile and Revan...and I win.

A Jedi Padawan MURDERING Revan? Revan has been training for a long time, and he's a Jedi Knight. You're telling me a brand new Jedi Padawn can kill an experienced Force User? Fanboys will storm at your door...

But a Jedi Padawan killing Darth Nihlius? According to your story, if Exile is DS, you can seek to manlipuate that you can kill off the Jedi sent to capture the Exile, and then ally with Exile. He still keeps his Force Sucking power, if I assume correctly...thus being the nature of The Exile (and would even a redeemed Exile use his Force Sucking power)? The only way The Exile can stop his Force Sucking power is to go and deny the Force...but that creates a wound in the Force yet again, defeating the whole purpose of Revan converting The Exile into his little Planet Destroyer...as well as creating a brand NEW Darth Nihlius.

Regardless, Darth Nihlius, a Planet Destroyer, would easily suck you. And, wouldn't you know...you are not a wound in the Force. So long Jedi Padawn!

Not only that, but if you could destroy Darth Nihlius as a Jedi Padawan, you fuel fan speculation that Revan can elimante Darth Nihlius...which helps out fanboyism.

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So a coup must succeed for it to be competent? I disagree completely. Admiral Zaarin very nearly killed the emperor with his treachery. Just because it did not succeed does not mean that it not present a genuine threat.
ALMOST, my friend. Ooh, I am a Stromtrooper, who almost murdered Luke Skywalker, but missed my shot by a half-a-mile. Time to make parades, right? No, for success is what defines what changes history and what doesn't. "Almost" doesn't cut it here.

They pose genuine threats, but the matter is that they failed. The Emproer reigned. Had the coup succeded, the Emproer's regin of terror would have ended, but they DIDN'T.

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The problem with that is that the original trilogy was all done for more than a decade before anyone ever thought of battle meditation. And then it was only for Nomi Sunrider. It is also notable that not even the new movie trilogy demonstrate Palpatine's purported battle meditation in any way, nor does any of the other Star Wars material that I've ever seen or read.
I read it somewhere, but cannot cite it.

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The major purpose of your suggestion seems to make Revan's and Exile's gender not be a problem. And quite honestly, I just don't see why it would be a problem in any way. Hence I don't see why either of them would need to be dead at the beginning of the next game. There is no reason to.
Gender, alignment, everything can easily be handled.

Yet I want Revan and Exile to now die.

Why?

1) We don't have to fight them. At all. This gets rid of the absurdity issue.
2) It makes the True Sith look strong and provides an OOC reason for revenge.
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A note: This I think may be my final post. I do fear flame wars and such, and to be fair, neither of us will convince one another. You all have good ideas, and I like them, altough we do have different views of creativty. The designers of K3 will be the final arbiters. I will be happy if we are both wrong, and Obisidan creates an awesome game that has NEITHER of our storylines in it.

I would like The Arcitect however to go and make his viewpoint clear and comment on who he think is correct. We can use that as a guiding post to see who "won" this debate.


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Old 02-12-2007, 12:28 PM   #43
Jediphile
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTA:SWcity
I read on the sith lords issue of star wars insider 'the tome of the sith'... and it said that the dark jedi who were exiled after the great hyperspace war (Naga Sadow, Ludo Kareesh, Ajunta Pall, Marka Rangos) and their followers found a species called sith and they intermingled and evolved. The dark jedi proclaimed themselves the lords of the sith.
Yes and no. You're mistaken about a few of few of the details and the exact timetable. First of all, always check the completely timeline on Wookieepedia in these cases. It's fanbased, but tends to be pretty accurate.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline

Second, Naga Sadow, Ludo Kressh, Ajunta Pall, and Marka Ragnos were not exiled after the Great Hyperspace War - they all lived before or during that time. Just to take it chronologically...

The Sith order had its basis as a consequence of the Second Great Schism, which led to the period called the "Hundred Year Darkness", which was about 7000 BBY (Before the Battle of Yavin in Episode IV - get used to it because almost all times in Star Wars are given in how long after or, more often, before it takes place before the destruction of the first Death Star), or about 3000 years before the time of Exar Kun and the KotOR games.

At the end of the Hundred Year Darkness, the surviving dark jedi were exiled from the jedi order and were forced to leave the republic. They roamed space and found their way to Korriban where they found and enslaved the original sith species, which they subsequently interbred with until there was very little distinction left between the two (all the rumors of a powerful, original sith species should end right here - the dark jedi exiled from the republic founded the Sith Empire , not the sith species, which was soon after more or less extinct as a unique species).

Ajunta Pall seems to have been one of the dark jedi originally exiled after the Hundred Years Darkness, since you can get him to mention how the dark jedi betrayed their jedi masters.

Marka Ragnos, however, comes much, much later. He was a very powerful dark lord of the Sith Empire, and it prospered much under his rule. Indeed, Ragnos' death led to Great Hyperspace War and the eventual fall of the Sith Empire, because there were two potential successors to the throne after Ragnos' death: Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh.

Ludo Kressh wanted to preserve the Sith Empire as it was, while Sadow insisted that the empire needed to expand and so insisted on war against the republic. The struggles between the two took place about 5000 BBY, a millennium before the KotOR games, and are chronicled in the Golden Age of the Sith comic books.

Eventually Sadow killed Kressh (or so he thought) and took the throne of the dark lord. He then invaded the republic in the war known as the Great Hyperspace War. The republic eventually repelled his forces, however, and upon returning to the Sith Empire for reinforcement, Sadow learned that Kressh was not only alive, but had assumed the throne of the dark lord in his absense. Their two fleets fought harshly, and Sadow finally killed Kressh, but did not know that the republic fleet had followed him. Weakened by battle, both Sith fleets fell to the republic fleet and with them the Sith Empire. This is all chronicled in the Fall of the Sith Empire comic books.

Naga Sadow survived and fled to Yavin IV, where he constructed a new temple. His final fate is unknown. He is known to have somehow taught the fallen jedi Freedon Nadd from Onderon the ways of the dark side around 4400 BBY, almost 600 years after the fall of the Sith Empire.

The teachings of Freedon Nadd and Naga Sadow later led to the fall jedi knights Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma, whose corruption led to the Great Sith War around 4000 BBY, about 30 to 40 years before the KotOR games. These events are chronicled in the original "Tales of the Jedi" comic books (the comics about the fall of the Sith Empire were written later) beginning with "The Knights of the Old Repubic" ("Ulic Qel-Droma and the Beastriders of Onderon" and "The Saga of Nomi Sunrider"), "The Freedon Nadd Uprising", "The Dark Lords of the Sith", "The Sith War", and finally "Redemption".

If you read through the links above, beware of spoilers.

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Originally Posted by GTA:SWcity
It was not until Exar Kun that any sith were "worthy" of the title 'sith lord'. Then KOTORs 1&2...and we're looking at 3 right now. Then much later Kaan and his brotherhood and Bane and all that.
Well, we actually don't know that... All we know is that there were no sith lords known to the republic between the Great Hyperspace War and the Great Sith War. Freedon Nadd is quite notably not a Sith Lord and "only" ranks as high as dark jedi. But there could have been Sith Lords in the remnants of the Sith Empire during that time for all we know. I suspect KotOR3 might shed some light on that.


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Old 02-12-2007, 02:06 PM   #44
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Well, Sith Lord is a title, greely given and taken quit a bit, especially during the times just before/During Bane. Before that anyone with the force and a bit of sith-isque teaching can call himself a Sith Lord, if he survive long enough to be known/remembered as such.
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Old 02-12-2007, 02:19 PM   #45
Jediphile
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
But the Exile doesn't have to. All The Exile does is live and keep that wound open for Kreia to be happy, being an unnatural abbertion that will sooner or later be silenced the wound. But having The Exile close the wound himself defeat the whole purpose of TSL.
Closing wound != being able to make a new one.

And Kreia teachings have nothing to do with the wound it itself, just with the Exile's ability to resist the will of the force. If Kreia loves force wounds to much, then why does she say this:

Kreia: "Instead of sending one's will through connections in the Force, instead such connections are drawn upon, fed upon, and drained completely.Then you understand how terrible such a power is. And why it must be ended.It is an empty road to the dark side, and by traveling it, the price is death before one's time.He is a breach in the Force, capable of consuming the lives of those around him. Sometimes the touch is slow, as it is with his crew.It is not something he can direct or focus, much like hunger itself. He is more of a hole in the Force than a living thing. Force Sensitives and worlds rich in the Force draw him. The Miraluka world was one such place. That is why where the Jedi gather, Jedi will die. He will feel it, unless they mask their presence - but Katarr called out as a beacon to him, and he could not resist it.And he cares nothing for the Sith or its teachings... or the Jedi.And when the Jedi are dead, he will feed on the galaxy, the Republic, and eventually, consume the Sith as well. And when the Jedi are dead, her master will feed on the galaxy, the Republic, and eventually, consume the Sith as well. There is no future in the empty galaxy he sees. And that is why he must be stopped on Onderon. The breach must be sealed, before his power grows beyond what even we can stop."

Now consider why Kreia is fascinated by the Exile.

Kreia: "But in you... I see the potential to see the Force die, to turn away from its will. And that is what pleases me.You are beautiful to me, exile. A dead spot in the Force, an emptiness in which its will might be denied."

Kreia's goal: "Deny the will of the force"
Not Kreia's goal: "Wound the force"

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
I play a game for fun. A compelling plot and strongly written characters add to the fun. It's up to you, however, to prove that the plot is compelling...and plausible. If the plot is not compelling, people will not play. People hate K2 and don't play it, because they hate it, and see the plot as being idioitic and stupid.
As someone else said recently, many gaming companies would love to have a "failure" like TSL. Sure people hate K2 - that's why they bought it...

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Originally Posted by SilentScope001
You see The Exile as a weak character but I actually liked learning more about my character by Roleplaying as him. But, onto the reason why he is an ego-booster: The Exile is a Wound In The Force, and is able to destroy Nihlius because of it. The Exile is the Last of the Jedi...he's the only one that can resurrect it by training the "Lost Jedi" to take after him. The Exile really is important and key...
I said the exile was a weak character, yes. I did not say he was an uninteresting character. It is interesting that the Obsidian dares to have such a character as the protoganist. It doesn't change that the exile has a history of denial and self-delusion, though.

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Originally Posted by SilentScope001
How do you know if they really are uber-powerful Jedi? To me, they were "redshirts", who were created only so that they can be killed by the clonetroopers, and demonstrate how effective Code 66 is. The Jedi like Obi-Wan and Yoda were spared however...and I would bet Yoda is somewhat uber-powerful.
Well, if you're going to flat out deny that people sitting on the council next to Obi-Wan, Mace and Yoda are powerful, then arguing seems pointless to me...

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Originally Posted by SilentScope001
But Exile and Revan are not protagonisits in K3, I'm not worried of them. I'm very worried of the Progrationist, of the Jedi Padawan. Actually, to me, the reason WHY you are able to destroy the enemies is a very important and key part of the plot. Leave that undeveloped, and well, I'll dislike the game intensly.
Why were Lando Calrissian and Nien Numb able to destroy the second Death Star? Was it because nobody else could have pushed the button? No, it was because THEY WERE THERE!

How was Han Solo able to save Luke from Darth Vader in the first movie? Was it because no other ship had the power to fire on TIE Fighters or because Han Solo had special abilities that allowed him alone to accomplish that feat? No, it was because HE WAS THERE!

The value of being at the right place at the right time should not be underestimated or ignored. If it always depended on only the people with the exactly right skills being present to solve things, then the galaxy would already be dead.

Obi-Wan had no special skills to defeat Darth Maul with - he was not even a particularly powerful jedi - but he still prevailed. He was indeed a padawan who defeated a dark lord lord of the Sith. And one who had just killed his jedi master, I might add.

Han, Luke, Leia, and Chewie would all have been killed in that shaft on the Death Star, if R2 hadn't reprogrammed the computer. Did that take special skills? No. All it took was the opportunity.

Even in TSL, three of your companions must enter the tomb of Freedon Nadd and stop the Sith. By your definition they shouldn't have done that, since the Exile is simply better suited for it.

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Originally Posted by SilentScope001
But you say you want to stop the fanboys from thinking that Exile and Revan are immortal? Then why not let Exile and Revan be killed off...without the needs of the Player? Why must you keep them alive, why must we talk to them, why must we face them, why we redeem or kill them?
Because they are good character who still have plenty of potential left in them. Pretty simple, really...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Listen, it's okay for Exile and Revan to die, but I don't want them to be killed by a Jedi Padawan who has no special powers other than an ability to "empathize" with others.
Alas, my argument of "knife in the back" and pointing to my sig appear to have fallen on deaf ears

But yes, it's okay for them to die. It's just disappointing to throw the baby out with the bathwater like that... Or the potential away that remains in those characters...

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Originally Posted by SilentScope001
And if the True Sith ends them, we finally realize this is a threat that has to be stopped. And then, the Player will be able to stop them.
The concept of killing off characters just to prove an enemy is dangerous is so clichť and outdated that it was a major point of Galaxy Quest: "I don't have a last name - you know why? Because my character is not important enough to have a last name... Because I'm gonna die!!"

Seriously, the notorious "red-shirts" of Star Trek were so overdone that the Enterprise show made the mistake of going too far the other way, meaning that nobody EVER died...

Sorry, but that's no reason for blatantly killing off good characters - it's clichť and overdone anyway.

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Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Expect, I don't see my New Character's ego being stroked. Maybe it is due to the fact that the True Sith would be easy to destroy, gameplay-wise. Since you offer no reason why the Player is the only one that can destroy the True Sith,
Actually, I did...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
(and even according to canon, the final battle where you battle the Leader of the True Sith...gets fought not by you, but by Darth Revan)...
Where do you get that from? The game isn't even announced yet. We know nothing about what will happen in the plot...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
oh well. Not just that, but the New Character is reliant on Revan and Exile to weaken the Sith Empire...and the New Character is constantly reminded that he can be replaced by OTHER New Characters...
Well, nobody is irreplaceable. Ego-stroking to the extent that "OMG - THE UNIVERSE WILL DIE IF *I* ALONE DO NOT SAVE IT" is not a healthy principle to promote in any sort of fiction methinks. Character being powerful and significant is okay, but the character being essential to the point where all life will die without him is just silly and narcissistic to any sickening degree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
It's disappointing. To me, that's lazy storyline. I am not movivated to care for this character, nor should I. He's just some Jedi Padawan. Unimportant.
"Help me, Obi-Wan Kenobi. You're our only hope"

Yeah, that's pretty original plot right there... :x

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
And it still make Exile and Revan look powerful and grand. I thought you hate fanboyism, but you are fueling it still.
No, because I'm not prepared to give Revan and Exile they oh-so-heroic deaths that you are. If they are DS, then they must die by the treachery of a mere apprentice - not much fanboyism there. If they are LS, they must suffer the indignity of being redeemed by their friends and a padawan - not much fanboyism there either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
But why even BOTHER bringing them in? I don't want this to be a KOTOR Reunion, I want new characters, with new backstories that would be interesting. Really, K2 was a lot better since instead of us gaining Carth as a party member, we got Atton instead.
TSL reused Carth, Bastila, T3, HK, Canderous... In short, it reused all those characters that were not obviously killed off in the DS ending. Was TSL "KotOR Reunion"? Did that prevent new characters from being in TSL?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Now THAT'S absurd.

Before, I was okay with your little "empathy" power. Okay, so you slowly manlipuate or redeem Exile and Revan onto your side. Now, suppose I like the Dark Side (let admit it, we all do). I then have my Jedi Padawan murder Exile and Revan...and I win.

A Jedi Padawan MURDERING Revan? Revan has been training for a long time, and he's a Jedi Knight. You're telling me a brand new Jedi Padawn can kill an experienced Force User? Fanboys will storm at your door...

But a Jedi Padawan killing Darth Nihlius? According to your story, if Exile is DS, you can seek to manlipuate that you can kill off the Jedi sent to capture the Exile, and then ally with Exile. He still keeps his Force Sucking power, if I assume correctly...thus being the nature of The Exile (and would even a redeemed Exile use his Force Sucking power)? The only way The Exile can stop his Force Sucking power is to go and deny the Force...but that creates a wound in the Force yet again, defeating the whole purpose of Revan converting The Exile into his little Planet Destroyer...as well as creating a brand NEW Darth Nihlius.

Regardless, Darth Nihlius, a Planet Destroyer, would easily suck you. And, wouldn't you know...you are not a wound in the Force. So long Jedi Padawn!

Not only that, but if you could destroy Darth Nihlius as a Jedi Padawan, you fuel fan speculation that Revan can elimante Darth Nihlius...which helps out fanboyism.
Alas, my argument of "knife in the back" and pointing to my sig appear to have fallen on deaf ears

My, why do I get this odd sense of deja vu now...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
ALMOST, my friend. Ooh, I am a Stromtrooper, who almost murdered Luke Skywalker, but missed my shot by a half-a-mile. Time to make parades, right?
Yes, that's the same thing, sure...

However, in the interest of civility and constructive discussion, I shall endeavour to restrain myself from responding in a similar tone...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
They pose genuine threats, but the matter is that they failed. The Emproer reigned. Had the coup succeded, the Emproer's regin of terror would have ended, but they DIDN'T.
Actually no, Zaarin would just have been emperor instead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
I read it somewhere, but cannot cite it.
To use your own words, "that doesn't cut it".

I've read people mention this too, but they've never given a source for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Yet I want Revan and Exile to now die.
Well, I don't. It serves no constructive purpose and so is both silly and wasteful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
2) It makes the True Sith look strong and provides an OOC reason for revenge.
OOC = bad roleplaying. I'd rather identify with my character than roleplay him under false pretenses to be perfectly honest.


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Old 02-12-2007, 04:24 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Jediphile
Why were Lando Calrissian and Nien Numb able to destroy the second Death Star? Was it because nobody else could have pushed the button? No, it was because THEY WERE THERE!

How was Han Solo able to save Luke from Darth Vader in the first movie? Was it because no other ship had the power to fire on TIE Fighters or because Han Solo had special abilities that allowed him alone to accomplish that feat? No, it was because HE WAS THERE!

The value of being at the right place at the right time should not be underestimated or ignored. If it always depended on only the people with the exactly right skills being present to solve things, then the galaxy would already be dead.
The "right time, right place" factor is also a big factor in Anakin's fall of course. He was a loose cannon, but showed no real motivaiton to turn without Palpy's meddling. Then he happens to stumble upon Palpy in his only weak moment - cowering under Windu. The tragedy of his fall of course is that the visions that drove him lead him to make them true. He went dark to save Padme, and going dark ultimately killed her.

In short, i agree lol

You guys don't half post looooooong messgaes which are simply "I want Revan and Exile" vs. "I don't"

I personally don't. ...Revan maybe.
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Old 02-13-2007, 07:31 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Jediphile
Actually, as someone pointed out the other day, if Exile is turned into a neo-Nihilus, then Exile would just speak "Nihilus-speak" and you wouldn't need a voice-actor as such - just reuse Nihilus' "speech" from TSL and provide the responses as text only like it is done for all the aliens in the KotOR games. For people who complain that Revan shouldn't speak, well, Revan DID speak in KotOR, so we do know what his/her voice sounds like.
Well, personally I donít like, no, I hate that idea. Why? Because while I agree with your theory that the Exile is a dark manifestation of Darth Nihilus, that doesnít mean I think that the Exile is going to become exactly like Darth Nihilus, and thatís the impression Iíll get if he/she sounds like a flushing toilet like Nihilus did.

Darth Nihilus was just that, in TSL. What Iíd like to see in KotOR III is the Exile + Darth Nihilus = Darth Nihilus the Exile, not the Exile + Darth Nihilus = Darth Nihilus, capish? You see, I always thought that Nihilus sounded like a flushing toilet precisely because of his inhuman, void in the force status in TSL. I donít want DNtE to be an inhuman, void in the force as well. Iíd rather the devs just give the Exile a voice. One for the male Exile, and one for the female Exile.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Yes. I've actually been considering than maybe DS Revan should just be the leader of the true Sith that must ultimately be destroyed in KotOR3 - he accepted the dark side in the Rakatan temple, and now he is evil incarnate. LS Revan has sacrificed himself to the dark side for the greater good, however, and has not fallen so far.
I like that idea. Iíve also thought about this idea if you set Revan as DS too. Instead of having no choice but to kill DS Revan, what if you had the option of becoming his/her apprentice, or became the apprentice of Revanís apprentice, DS Exile, or DS Bastila (if the Exile is LS)?

This way, youíre not forced to kill Revan, and can avoid the risky plan of Ďmanipulatingí the cause of DS Revanís death, or ganging up on him/her. I canít see the PC of KotOR III becoming the Dark Lord of the True Sith, because I donít see why only Revan and the Exile would be more powerful than you. Remember, according to your story, youíre not that powerful, and with good reason, since thereís no Ďreasoní in your plot to be uber powerful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
There are other things you could do to reflect alignment choices of the previous games. For example, in my plot I had the group go to Revan's hideout on Khar Shian in order to find the way to Ziost. If the Exile is DS, however, you could go to Malachor V instead. Just use the same characters with very little differences and run different movies/cutscenes leading to those planets. That's a notable difference right there, because there will be no Malachor V to visit if the Exile is LS.
Yeah, that's an acceptable idea in my opinion. Look, you and me both know their are plenty of ways to reflect the alignment/gender choices of the previous games. We also both know that it's really not all that hard (as what some people make it out to be) for the devs to implement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
I would say no, because it defeats the power of the dark side completely. A consistent theme not only in Star Wars but in most popular fiction is that you can't do evil without becoming evil. It's the same with the ring in LOTR - Boromir wants to use as a weapon against Sauron and must pay the ultimate price for it. Ulic couldn't resist the dark side, Revan couldn't, and Luke couldn't either (though he didn't fall so far that he could not be redeemed). No one can. You could claim the Exile did, but the price for that was just as high. I will be really disappointed if Revan can just casually shrug off the dark side and turn back to the light on his own. LS Revan would be able to do only if he is forced by his old friends to remember what he was fighting for in the first place, and DS Revan wouldn't do it at all.
Well yeah, I agree that it would most likely make the DS look shabby. This is where I donít like some of the concepts of Star Wars though. Revanís already had amnesia, why would he/she forget what he/she is fighting for in the first place? Can the DS do that to someone like Revan?

I canít see LS Revan going:

ďHmm, even though I orchestrated a civil war amongst the True Sith and crippled them to the point where my allies were able to finish them off, I might just attack my friends now and take over the galaxy. I really like this whole being a Sith Lord and DS stuff. I forgot how great it was. Now I wondered why I bothered to protect the Republic, the Jedi and my friends in the first place, since Iím now going to kill them.Ē

Can you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imoras
If its not obsidian's fault then how come the other obsidian game (nwn2) has exactly the same problems?
Well I haven't played NWN2 but O RLY? First I've heard of it. I didn't know NWN2 had problems of around about the same level TSL had. And yes, it is LA's fault, because they gave them a laughable development schedule in the first place, then about half way through development, they out of the blue decided to cut another two months from an already crappy time schedule, thus resulting in a mess!

And yes hawk, I agree with points 1, 2 and 3 of yours, which I assume you already know.


"Here is my final point. About drugs, about alcohol, about pornography and smoking and everything else. What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I ****, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?"

~ Bill Hicks
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Old 02-13-2007, 11:53 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by The Architect
Well, personally I donít like, no, I hate that idea. Why? Because while I agree with your theory that the Exile is a dark manifestation of Darth Nihilus, that doesnít mean I think that the Exile is going to become exactly like Darth Nihilus, and thatís the impression Iíll get if he/she sounds like a flushing toilet like Nihilus did.

Darth Nihilus was just that, in TSL. What Iíd like to see in KotOR III is the Exile + Darth Nihilus = Darth Nihilus the Exile, not the Exile + Darth Nihilus = Darth Nihilus, capish? You see, I always thought that Nihilus sounded like a flushing toilet precisely because of his inhuman, void in the force status in TSL. I donít want DNtE to be an inhuman, void in the force as well. Iíd rather the devs just give the Exile a voice. One for the male Exile, and one for the female Exile.
Actually, I tend to agree with you. I don't see why giving the exile a voice is such a big deal, but some people seem really adamant about it, in which case this could be a way to deal with it.

There are even those who want Revan to be silent. I don't get that at all, since Revan did actually have a voice in KotOR, although I'll admit that he didn't say much beyond the odd "ready"-prompt or a battlecry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
I like that idea. Iíve also thought about this idea if you set Revan as DS too. Instead of having no choice but to kill DS Revan, what if you had the option of becoming his/her apprentice, or became the apprentice of Revanís apprentice, DS Exile, or DS Bastila (if the Exile is LS)?

This way, youíre not forced to kill Revan, and can avoid the risky plan of Ďmanipulatingí the cause of DS Revanís death, or ganging up on him/her. I canít see the PC of KotOR III becoming the Dark Lord of the True Sith, because I donít see why only Revan and the Exile would be more powerful than you. Remember, according to your story, youíre not that powerful, and with good reason, since thereís no Ďreasoní in your plot to be uber powerful.
True enough, but then I didn't see much reason for Revan to be that powerful in KotOR. I mean, yes, he WAS the dark lord of the Sith and WAS very powerful in the force. However, he was also amnesic and had forgotten all his powers and techniques in the force. So at best, I could take his knowledge of his past only as affirmation of his potential. You know, "I must be powerful - I was the dark lord of the Sith, after all!" That would bring Revan some sort of confidence in his powers, especially if he was DS. He did not know he was Revan for a long time, though. And for the LS Revan, it would be a heavy cross to bear, like "I can clearly become powerful, but maybe I shouldn't... Because if I do, how can I be sure that I'm not doomed to fall to the dark side as I did before?" As much as we might hate to admit it, Vrook could have had a point after all... at least until we get know Vrook and learn that he is ALWAYS wrong. Even when he's right

So all that being the case, I didn't see much reason for Revan to grow so powerful in so short a time without his memories in KotOR. Yet he did. So I could see the same being true for a new padawan. Not quite with as great potential as Anakin or even Revan, but still with a lot of potential. Someone who has the same potential as Obi-Wan perhaps. It would be nice to play a padawan who mirrors Obi-Wan from Episode I just a little, I think. No carbon copy, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
Well yeah, I agree that it would most likely make the DS look shabby. This is where I donít like some of the concepts of Star Wars though. Revanís already had amnesia, why would he/she forget what he/she is fighting for in the first place? Can the DS do that to someone like Revan?

I canít see LS Revan going:

ďHmm, even though I orchestrated a civil war amongst the True Sith and crippled them to the point where my allies were able to finish them off, I might just attack my friends now and take over the galaxy. I really like this whole being a Sith Lord and DS stuff. I forgot how great it was. Now I wondered why I bothered to protect the Republic, the Jedi and my friends in the first place, since Iím now going to kill them.Ē

Can you?
To me it's simply a case of "power corrupts - absolute power corrupts absolutely."

And while Revan may have forgotten his past in KotOR, bear in mind that Bastila mentions in KotOR, both for LS and DS Revan, that he remembered something, but wouldn't talk about it. Indeed, Revan's post-KotOR1 crusade against the true Sith is based entirely on that fact that he recalled things about them. Not only that, he remembered Malachor as well. He might have remembered lots of things... or all.

But more than anything, I think LS Revan will fall because he chooses to.

"The difference between a fall and a sacrifice is sometimes difficult, but I feel that Revan understood that difference, more than anyone knew," Kreia said.

She offered as an explanation of Revan's fall in the past, but I could also see it as foreshadowing of the choices Revan made after KotOR1.

"Perhaps he became the dark lord out of necessity, to prevent a greater evil. I do not believe the Jedi Council changed Revan, as they claimed. They merely stripped away the surface, and allowed the true self to emerge again - someone who was willing to wage war to save others."

That observation seems even more relevant to Revan after KotOR1 than before, if you ask me, since it defines some character-traits in Revan that could explain his choice to leave the republic and fight the true Sith, no matter what the cost would be to himself personally. He was not willing to sacrifice his loved ones or his friends, though.


"It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built" - Kreia

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Old 02-13-2007, 01:11 PM   #49
Darth Avlectus
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For people hating the idea of fighting Exile/Revan, Im thinking of making another K3 Story, to see if I can attempt to fix the faults of the previous one.
GOOD! Finally, one who thinks outside the repetition box. Go ahead, be my guest. I don't necessarily 'hate' the idea (as exile probably could stand to have a cameo like in a dream the same way revan had--I would NOT call that a real fight--hard as it may or may not have been. Just because you can dream fight someone does not mean you will actully beat that person in reality. I know the incesent nihilus and exile fans will be all over this chew me out fir saying the truth, but it needs to be said.), but I do think the next one should move on--after all, the galaxy doesn't just sit still does it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
They are not good with storyline problems, specifically how to end a game and such.
And, for the most part, they did do NW1 correctly.
I'm sure while we could all help, unfortunately they hire their own groups of people...Hopefully they hire someone who is reading this right now and considering our positions. That is about as likely as the chances of playing donkey kong for atari and Kevin DuBrow of quiet riot somewhere else playing it at exactly the same time--It probably isn't goin' to happen.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
But the Exile doesn't have to. All The Exile does is live and keep that wound open for Kreia to be happy, being an unnatural abbertion that will sooner or later be silenced the wound. But having The Exile close the wound himself defeat the whole purpose of TSL.

However, I am dropping this oppisiton, prescially because I have nothing to replace it. I just hate it, just all.
Here, here. I'm sure architecht can come up with something.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
I play a game for fun. A compelling plot and strongly written characters add to the fun. It's up to you, however, to prove that the plot is compelling...and plausible. If the plot is not compelling, people will not play. People hate K2 and don't play it, because they hate it, and see the plot as being idioitic and stupid.

You see The Exile as a weak character but I actually liked learning more about my character by Roleplaying as him. But, onto the reason why he is an ego-booster: The Exile is a Wound In The Force, and is able to destroy Nihlius because of it. The Exile is the Last of the Jedi...he's the only one that can resurrect it by training the "Lost Jedi" to take after him. The Exile really is important and key...
(seriously) So you think he's weak more because of plot line, I take it?



Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
How do you know if they really are uber-powerful Jedi? To me, they were "redshirts", who were created only so that they can be killed by the clonetroopers, and demonstrate how effective Code 66 is. The Jedi like Obi-Wan and Yoda were spared however...and I would bet Yoda is somewhat uber-powerful.
Yoda: Hmm? Interested in hearing this explanation, I am. Yes indeed.



Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
But Exile and Revan are not protagonisits in K3, I'm not worried of them. I'm very worried of the Progrationist, of the Jedi Padawan. Actually, to me, the reason WHY you are able to destroy the enemies is a very important and key part of the plot. Leave that undeveloped, and well, I'll dislike the game intensly.
I wish more companies would realize that. Like Capcom, and Tecmo.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
But you say you want to stop the fanboys from thinking that Exile and Revan are immortal? Then why not let Exile and Revan be killed off...without the needs of the Player? Why must you keep them alive, why must we talk to them, why must we face them, why we redeem or kill them? Listen, it's okay for Exile and Revan to die, but I don't want them to be killed by a Jedi Padawan who has no special powers other than an ability to "empathize" with others.

They can die during the events of K3, as they aid the player as NPCs, before being wiped out. They can become Force Ghosts, aiding the player in his quest. They can cause lots of damage and wreckage, and have followers who still obey Revan and Exile's orders in spirit...that much effect Revan and Exile has.
Finally, another idea! Hooray!

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
And if the True Sith ends them, we finally realize this is a threat that has to be stopped. And then, the Player will be able to stop them.

I don't want to stroke the ego of Revan and Exile. Revan and Exile's ego are stroked enough in K1 and K2, it is now the New Character's turn to have its ego stroked. In other words, this isn't Revan and Exile's game.
Like I was saying, we should make a move away-to progress onward and not BACKWARD.

<snip>

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
.... I was sastirizing McGuvyer here.

But why not any OTHER Jedi Padawan? Why only you?

And it still make Exile and Revan look powerful and grand. I thought you hate fanboyism, but you are fueling it still.

--I like the humility--
Good question--why only one?

IMO:Mcguyver as a character is pretty cool, certainly enjoyed watching as a kid...what's wrong with a character with wits and knowledge?
We need a Han solo type that has an appreciation for that kind of improvisation and knowledge. And one who is effective at combat, like a scoundrel's personality and skill, mixed with a scout's combat capabilities which is basically like a soldier but less damage, or fancy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Gender, alignment, everything can easily be handled.

Yet I want Revan and Exile to now die.
Comment: No better way of handling meatbags--heheh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Why?

1) We don't have to fight them. At all. This gets rid of the absurdity issue.
2) It makes the True Sith look strong and provides an OOC reason for revenge.
---
A note: This I think may be my final post. I do fear flame wars and such, and to be fair, neither of us will convince one another. You all have good ideas, and I like them, altough we do have different views of creativty. The designers of K3 will be the final arbiters. I will be happy if we are both wrong, and Obisidan creates an awesome game that has NEITHER of our storylines in it.
Good reasoning.

As such, that's reality and business--the companies hire who they want.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
I would like The Arcitect however to go and make his viewpoint clear and comment on who he think is correct. We can use that as a guiding post to see who "won" this debate.
I've seen your stuff too, architect. While I still haven't had time to go over *everything*, your contributions to one of my threads, let alone everything else you've done, I have read your other stuff enouhg to be interested. So I'd like to see what a person of your effort can come up with next...

I liked that "Waru" creature from the anti-force universe in the 'crystal dwarf' novel (at least I think it was called that) who needs to consume one strong in the force to get back home. (And I'd be curious to see what would happen to nihilus trying to suck a creature's life away that was of anti force and served as a gateway to another universe--I'm not a fanboy of either revan or nihilus BTW.) as an idea for a boss--or an abomination as such who is desperate and eats the loser of the last boss fight. Oh, yeah. That happened in a base near where a dead sun was about to be consumed by a black hole--the energy fluctuations make weapons malfunction. So if it were in the game, it would have to be a duel of powers and hand to hand combat. Lest your lightsaber explodes like a grenade in your hand.
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Old 02-13-2007, 04:46 PM   #50
Titanius Anglesmith
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Wow. I haven't been following this thread at all. How have I not seen it?! Oh well, I'm not quite as creative as you guys, so I can't come up with these great ideas. I'll just let you guys post them and then I can agree with them.

I hate how some people say that there would be too many variables if the devs didn't use canon for K3. Choosing the alignment/gender of Revan and the Exile are very important to me. I wouldn't really like it if my choices from the last two games were just cast aside for the sake of "having too many variables."

I also like the idea of the Exile being Revan's apprentice and becoming the new Darth Nihilus. Of course, LS Revan and Exile could be redeemed, as much as I don't really like the idea of redemption playing a large part in this game, I suppose it might have to.

Well that's pretty much all I've got (I know... pathetic), but everyone else has already laid all my thoughts out on the table. I just hope there is someone out there who works for LucasArts or Obsidian (or whoever might make K3) that actually looks at all these ideas. I know, it's unlikely, but I still hope.


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Old 02-13-2007, 07:50 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
I hate how some people say that there would be too many variables if the devs didn't use canon for K3. Choosing the alignment/gender of Revan and the Exile are very important to me. I wouldn't really like it if my choices from the last two games were just cast aside for the sake of "having too many variables."
QFE. "The truth this is!"

Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
I also like the idea of the Exile being Revan's apprentice and becoming the new Darth Nihilus. Of course, LS Revan and Exile could be redeemed, as much as I don't really like the idea of redemption playing a large part in this game, I suppose it might have to.
Well, I think the majority of us tend to agree that Revan and exile should not be redeemable if they are DS, and if the new character is played DS, then he wouldn't want to redeem them anyway. So no, it would not be necessary.

But I would like for it to be an option if they were LS at the end of their respective games. I had this end in mind for the redeemed LS-Revan that is bittersweet. Suffice it to say, that I'd want Revan to be officially dead by the end of the game no matter what.

Exile is more problematic. On the one hand, he might need to die for the force wound to be closed, but on the other hand, it would be so ironic if the outcast wound-in-the-force becomes the new grand master who lays the foundation of a new jedi order. The exile has a LOT of skeletons in the closet to come to terms with first, however.


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Old 02-19-2007, 12:32 AM   #52
Darth Avlectus
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Yes and no. You're mistaken about a few of few of the details and the exact timetable. First of all, always check the completely timeline on Wookieepedia in these cases. It's fanbased, but tends to be pretty accurate.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline
Ah. TY so much. My memory was rusty after all. I had no Idea how vast it truly was.


First, I'll always be sceptical, it is my nature. But I'll be reasonable.
If you will, I won't say the work you did for me is *entirely* uncontested but I will for now glad accept, seeing as how you took the time to straighten it out for me. As well I am very appreciative. Thank you again.
Do not take the criticism as bad rapping, it is just skepicism.

In case you are wondering why: The slight bit of contest is that: Though Wookiepedia is a section of wiki dedicated to SW, and for that reason (if nothing else) is 'probably' harder to botch by putting garbage info in there. IT isn't infallible.

Again, I'll be reasonable. Especially since I don't care to knit-pick *every* little detail.
As a rule I tend not to trust wiki as it allows just about anybody to contribute--NNNNNOOOOOOTTTTTT that democratizing info is necessarily bad IMO, it's just that such freedom allows all too easily the pollution of otherwise credible info. Their "sources" are not always credible, also their contributors may hyperbolize a bit.

I realize that any perspective--no matter how objective is personal and ultimately is always slightly biased. So it is up to me to find out for myself.

If anyone else on these forums ever has to do any "REAL" research for college classes Professors-esp. PHDs- in fact disallow it as a credible source unless you can back up *everything*, which then you might as well just have done it all without wiki--though it is acceptable to let it help to lead you around a bit.

Since I cannot replace it with anything, it'll simply have to do for now and quite possibly forever.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
At the end of the Hundred Year Darkness, the surviving dark jedi were exiled from the jedi order and were forced to leave the republic. They roamed space and found their way to Korriban where they found and enslaved the original sith species, which they subsequently interbred with until there was very little distinction left between the two (all the rumors of a powerful, original sith species should end right here - the dark jedi exiled from the republic founded the Sith Empire , not the sith species, which was soon after more or less extinct as a unique species).
Ahh. Thank you. That pretty well disproves the whole 'True sith not existing' argument--which I never believed because the name sith had to have orignis.

Not sure I like the whole thing about them being predominantly Lefties, being that they are destined to be purged into an existence of evil. It's just that it implies the whole "Left-handedness is a sign of blindness and naivety" and "Left is wrong and evil" mentalities. I believe that to be fallacious. Besides--all the 'sith' lords I have ever seen have been right handed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Eventually Sadow killed Kressh (or so he thought) and took the throne of the dark lord. He then invaded the republic in the war known as the Great Hyperspace War. The republic eventually repelled his forces, however, and upon returning to the Sith Empire for reinforcement, Sadow learned that Kressh was not only alive, but had assumed the throne of the dark lord in his absense. Their two fleets fought harshly, and Sadow finally killed Kressh, but did not know that the republic fleet had followed him. Weakened by battle, both Sith fleets fell to the republic fleet and with them the Sith Empire. This is all chronicled in the Fall of the Sith Empire comic books.
That I remember, if a bit jumbled up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Naga Sadow survived and fled to Yavin IV, where he constructed a new temple. His final fate is unknown. He is known to have somehow taught the fallen jedi Freedon Nadd from Onderon the ways of the dark side around 4400 BBY, almost 600 years after the fall of the Sith Empire.
OK

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
If you read through the links above, beware of spoilers.
I don't mind--the best things in life are free--even education of a fictional saga. Well, call me a schyster (just not a kyke, as I am of partially jewsih decendency and find it offensive) , but If I don't have to spend money to learn any of this I won't. Further reason why I probably won't actually buy K2. If someone wants to 'donate' the real thing for pc.... then we'll talk.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Well, we actually don't know that... All we know is that there were no sith lords known to the republic between the Great Hyperspace War and the Great Sith War. Freedon Nadd is quite notably not a Sith Lord and "only" ranks as high as dark jedi. But there could have been Sith Lords in the remnants of the Sith Empire during that time for all we know. I suspect KotOR3 might shed some light on that.
Don't need to be a sith just to be a BAD dude. Freedon is sort of like Desann and Hethrir and Jerec. Just a dark Jedi, nothing else.

Confirmation: Ok so I am sort of clear on that. Thankl you for clarifying.
Hopeful: Maybe those meatbags in the editing department for K3 on the storyline won't screw it up by making it a bunch of miserable filler?

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