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Old 01-08-2007, 06:33 AM   #1
The Architect
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Don't go canon

http://forums.obsidianent.com/index....dpost&p=732836

and

http://forums.obsidianent.com/index....dpost&p=733472

and

http://forums.obsidianent.com/index....dpost&p=733802

and

http://forums.obsidianent.com/index....dpost&p=733928

Yes, it's a lot of reading, and I'm sorry, but after reading all that, see if you agree with me that the devs of KotOR III should not use the canon Revan and the canon Exile.


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Old 01-08-2007, 10:35 AM   #2
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I don't think the KOTOR devs should. But writers in other media should be able to.

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Old 01-08-2007, 12:43 PM   #3
SilentScope001
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Hey, one of the reasons I got K2 was the fact that you could have Revan be LS or DS. That was very, very cool. My choices...mattered. No more do I have to rely on stupid canon, now, I get to really affect the future of the galaxy. And they didn't even have to do it, they could have copt-out now. But they didn't...

And becasue of that, the developers would not go canon here either.
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Old 01-08-2007, 02:41 PM   #4
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The scenario I have in my head was one that I came up with after doing game file archeology. Dark Side made little sense in K1 (far too thuggish, and the party was mostly lightsiders - even Jolee was a Jedi when the bluff had to get called). Not to say that finding out the Jedi's little stunt and paying them back with interest wasn't tempting, and that killing off half your party drove home the point of Dark Side better than the movies ever did.

So, we have a LS Revan. As for gender? Well, females get nifty bonuses like a second romance, third ending, and access to the largest dialogue tree in-game. Playing male, there was only ONE conversation that I wasn't able to get playing female. That, and a few subtle things (the Leviathan torture scene, for one) put me in the "definitely LSF" camp.

K2? Everything about that game was dark, cynical, and freezing cold. Might as well kill the Jedi Masters. They're dead anyway. Onderon was a classic example of David Brin's snide observation that SW was all about the chose between elite. The "Light Side" option went sides you with a queen that 75% of her population wanted out of office. Vaklu was the popular vote, but he was a total jerk. Dantooine? Never wanted to side with the mercs, so there I do "Light" there. They're at least choosing their own destiny. Nar Shadaa? Overall? Irredeemable cesspit. The party was a squabbling lot held together by nothing but your manipulation of them and a subtle form of mind control. So, Neutral/DS for my Exile. Male, because Atris's venom and Brianna's arc are better developed than anything else. That, and Obsidian called Exile as male in all their own promotional material. the cynic in me wonders if they only "called" Exile as female because of the annoyance created by Jaden Korr and Revan's canonized gender. Like "yes, it's from a half-finished p.o.s. - but here's a bone, shut up."


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Old 01-08-2007, 03:01 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime
I don't think the KOTOR devs should. But writers in other media should be able to.
Totally agree. The developers should go with the choices of the previous games and not be handcuffed with what is considered canon. If they go with canon, what is the point of even playing the games?


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Old 01-08-2007, 03:47 PM   #6
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No way! Of course we should be able to choose that! Seems more like lazyness if the devs did that.
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Old 01-09-2007, 01:58 AM   #7
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As much as I like the canon, because I use them, I don't want them forced in KOTOR III. The only time they should stay as they canon, is when they are in other media, like books, etc, as Prime has already said.
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Old 01-09-2007, 05:05 AM   #8
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I say what everybody has said: no canon on KIII. Let us choose. I'll choose the canon way anyways.
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Old 01-09-2007, 09:33 AM   #9
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I'd say, let the player determine gender and DS/LS of the previous PCs, but reduce the consequences to a minimum.

For example, even if you played a Darksided character who went around killing everyone, those persons you killed could be alive in kotor III.

Being DS doesn't mean that you kill everything you can.

I fear that the plot of a Kotor III is limited by all that gender and alignment issues, unless the developers put a huge time gap between KII and KIII.
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Old 01-09-2007, 08:23 PM   #10
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If the devs went along with such a thing, I would hesitate to call it "KotOR" III.


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Old 01-09-2007, 08:52 PM   #11
SilentScope001
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I'd say, let the player determine gender and DS/LS of the previous PCs, but reduce the consequences to a minimum.

For example, even if you played a Darksided character who went around killing everyone, those persons you killed could be alive in kotor III.
Or better yet, don't have those people AT ALL in KOTORIII, for both LS and DS. Otherwise, it might disrupt the illusion you are in contorl.

Actually, there are very little consquences along with the choices you make, but we treasure them. Here are they:

LS:
-Revan defeats Darth Malak, and Malak's death causes the Sith Civil War, which ends the Jedi Civil War. Aftewards, Revan leaves known space in search for the True Sith.
-Revan redeemed the spirit of a Sith Lord on Korriban, and then takes his posionous sword of doom that will likely "consume" him.
-Disciple and that Jedi Master on Nar Shadda talks about Revan's "redemeption", especially after Revan's little talk with the Jedi Masters.
-Carth got promoted to Admrial. He and Bastilla are very much alive after K1, and are on the Light Side, and get to talk to you after you defeat Darth Nihlius.
-Sith Holocron on Korriban Gets Destroyed by Permecreate Bomb

DS:
-Revan defeats Darth Malak, and takes over the Sith Empire! Then, Revan decides to leave the galaxy in search of the True Sith, and hence causes the Sith Civil War, which ends the Jedi Civil War.
-Revan destroyed the spirit of a Sith Lord on Korriban, and then takes his posionous sword of doom that will likely "consume" him.
-Carth likely dead. Cede becomes Admrial of the Republic. Bastilla turns to the DS, and communicates to you in the Sith Holocron about her leaving the Republic in search of Revan.

And...um...that's it. There are probraly some other choices, but to be fair, that really is all. And, the differnece between Male and Female are even less...Ooh, so you get to see Carth if you are Male and Bastilla if you are Female in a T3-M4's holocron, and Bastilla could theoritcally be killed off if Revan is set to Female, hence why Carth is the only one talking to you.

So, do not worry. The developers has the ability to make it seem as if your choices has an effect...when it really does not.

Now, I actually never went into the Sith tombs of Korriban, so I never actually got that sword, but since LS Revan and DS Revan both "cannoincally" got the sword, and kept it, I say...fine. Keep that sword, and I hope that sword won't be key to anything. It's not really that important.

But if, say, you brough Jolee Bindo back, in the flesh, even when I am DS Revan, I would throw a fit. (If you have to have Jolee, at laset have the decency to keep him as a Force Ghost.)
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Old 01-09-2007, 08:53 PM   #12
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For once we are in agreement ED.

Canon should be stuck to if you are doing other forms of media like fics, comics, etc. KOTOR is an RP and to have canon forced upon ceases it to be an RP as we know it. I say no and inflict the wrath of the previous KOTOR gods against the devs.

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Old 01-09-2007, 09:39 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Cede becomes Admrial of the Republic.
Just a pointer, SilentScope... 'Admiral' is not a unique rank. In any well-standing navy, you'll find a good number of them. It is a very high rank yo be sure, but more than one individual can hold it. There's some conception I don't get that Carth became the head of the Republic Navy (though becoming an admiral in just five years is unlikely enough), but his title would something more like 'Admiral of the Navy', or 'Supreme Commander'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
But if, say, you brough Jolee Bindo back, in the flesh, even when I am DS Revan, I would throw a fit. (If you have to have Jolee, at laset have the decency to keep him as a Force Ghost.)
I don't know about you, but I wouldn't mind the devs 'retconning' that fight a little...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JediMaster12
Canon should be stuck to if you are doing other forms of media like fics, comics, etc. KOTOR is an RP and to have canon forced upon ceases it to be an RP as we know it.
I agree on the RP part, though there's no need to totally stick to canon with other media. Seeing alternate versions of something (or the official one in some people's case) wouldn't be too bad, and especially not for Lucasfilm. They could stand to make some extra money if two or more versions of KotOR were published if it ever becomes a novel, and would probably satisfy more fans.


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Old 01-10-2007, 01:58 AM   #14
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I have to agree with SilentScope001, that I don't want either Revan or the Exile to show up in KOTOR III. I want their fates to be found out in a datapad (with how we played our Revan/Exile), because if both of them were in the game, it would be too complicated.
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Old 01-10-2007, 02:06 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pottsie
I have to agree with SilentScope001, that I don't want either Revan or the Exile to show up in KOTOR III. I want their fates to be found out in a datapad (with how we played our Revan/Exile), because if both of them were in the game, it would be too complicated.
I disagree Pottsie. I think bringing Revan and the Exile back in KotOR III, without having to go canon, would be quite easy. How would it be too complicated?


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Old 01-10-2007, 02:14 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
I disagree Pottsie. I think bringing Revan and the Exile back in KotOR III, without having to go canon, would be quite easy. How would it be too complicated?
Agreed. Even I have an idea of how it could be possible, and the devs without a doubt could do a better job than me - I wouldn't put it beyond them.


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Old 01-10-2007, 02:56 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Agreed. Even I have an idea of how it could be possible, and the devs without a doubt could do a better job than me - I wouldn't put it beyond them.
Would you like to share your idea of how you'd bring Revan and the Exile back in KotOR III without going canon?

If anyone who doesn't already know wants to know how I'd bring them back without going canon, let me know, however, if you don't like reading long posts, then perhaps it's not a good idea.


"Here is my final point. About drugs, about alcohol, about pornography and smoking and everything else. What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I ****, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?"

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Old 01-10-2007, 11:30 AM   #18
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You could do it pretty much the same way TSL handled Revan. As long as you don't try to do dialog about the 2 of them together, you'd never have to have more than 4 options, and depending on how you handle the story, you might not have to do anything different than saying 'he' or 'she'. TSL was pretty vague on Revan's story, and the only thing that LS/DS did was determine who showed up in a couple cutscenes.


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Old 01-10-2007, 12:18 PM   #19
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Of course dev's shouldn't do that. That's the main interest of KotOR, and it would reduce the lifetime of the game.

At least, we should be able to choose the path of the Exile. And if LA really wants to be forgiven about the cut-content of TSL, they'll make the 16 possible fates of both Revan and the Exile.

"Canon" should only exist in the books, as KotOR is a game and as they started trying to let the player choose, they continue like this or they don't make K3.


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Old 01-10-2007, 12:23 PM   #20
SilentScope001
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I agree on the RP part, though there's no need to totally stick to canon with other media. Seeing alternate versions of something (or the official one in some people's case) wouldn't be too bad, and especially not for Lucasfilm. They could stand to make some extra money if two or more versions of KotOR were published if it ever becomes a novel, and would probably satisfy more fans.
Oooh, like some sort of "Infinites" comic books for the KOTOR series? I might really want to look at that. Though I think fanfic writers can do well in figuring out what really happen as well...
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Old 01-10-2007, 02:35 PM   #21
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Have you read some of the fics SilentScope? There are some AU, some canon and some that utilize the RP choices from the games that are out there. Some I think are way out there but they are written well.

As to canon, I believe someone defined different classes of canon though I can't remember where or when but all canon does is to serve as a constant in which professional writers that are approved by Lucas or whoever can base their stories on. At least here on LF and KFM, we have the luxury of not conforming to canon or even to the gameplay if we use KOTOR and TSL.

The devs should be ashamed of themselves for even thinking that they should write KOTOR III into canon. If I had my herbs and firepit, I would summon the KOTOR gods (Bioware) down from their place in the heavens and have them sic em'. Definitely the next installment of KOTOR should stay in the traditional RP that we were introduced to with KOTOR.

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Old 01-10-2007, 03:37 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
Would you like to share your idea of how you'd bring Revan and the Exile back in KotOR III without going canon?
Call this a lack of imagination on my part, but I'd be perfectly happy with the option to choose their gender and alignment at the character creation menu. Just click a couple buttons and there, problem solved.


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Last edited by Emperor Devon; 01-11-2007 at 02:04 AM. Reason: Typo
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Old 01-10-2007, 03:59 PM   #23
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Maybe that is the best darned idea of them all ED. I admit that I am impressed.

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Old 01-10-2007, 04:39 PM   #24
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I like SilentScope's idea in his KotOR III story about taking a written test about KotOR history. Your answers on the test would define what alignment/gender Revan and the Exile are. Or they could always do it the straight out way of, before you start your game you completely customize Revan and the Exile from what their face looks like to what their attributes and skills are.

All in all, I say no, don't go cannon. I think that there should be a canonical Revan and Exile simply for continuity purposes, but I also think that in the game, each player should be able to choose their own characters.


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Old 01-10-2007, 08:04 PM   #25
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Lightbulb

There should be a canon story for everything, but I don't want the canon forced into K3. The more options and different ways there are to play through the game, the more replay value there is.


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Old 01-11-2007, 01:57 AM   #26
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Actually there should be canon in the game if when someone questions you about Revan and the Exile, then you can reply, I don't know, which would case both Revan and the Exile to be on the light side and their respective genders. Other than that, no forced canon.
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Old 01-11-2007, 03:38 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pottsie
Actually there should be canon in the game if when someone questions you about Revan and the Exile, then you can reply, I don't know, which would case both Revan and the Exile to be on the light side and their respective genders. Other than that, no forced canon.
I couldn't have said it better Pottsie.


And no no Emperor Devon. I asked how you'd bring Revan and the Exile back in KotOR III without going canon, not ideas on how you could tell the game their genders and alignments; because there are countless ways you could do that. I’m asking how you’d bring them back in the flesh if you wanted to, without going canon and making it so hard for the devs.


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Old 01-11-2007, 08:28 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
I couldn't have said it better Pottsie.


And no no Emperor Devon. I asked how you'd bring Revan and the Exile back in KotOR III without going canon, not ideas on how you could tell the game their genders and alignments; because there are countless ways you could do that. I’m asking how you’d bring them back in the flesh if you wanted to, without going canon and making it so hard for the devs.


You mean, like why they're on the damned game, and not watching the footballl game while babysitting their nephews?

Hmm, of course you could keep the old converstion way, but I think new ideas are always welcome. Like, walking through the street of determined planet, you find two unknown historians struggling to become some known professionals. You offer yourself to help them, reading their books about the "history of the Jedi Civil War: A work on progress".

One of the historian books, shows Revan as LS male, and that he still didnt came back from the unknown regions. The other, shows Revan as a LS female that is hiding on a known planet of the outer-rim. Then you just have to choose who's the right, and then -SUDDENLY- its true.

Of course the devs can give us better situations, but thats the main idea.
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Old 01-11-2007, 10:36 AM   #29
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Hmm, of course you could keep the old converstion way, but I think new ideas are always welcome. Like, walking through the street of determined planet, you find two unknown historians struggling to become some known professionals. You offer yourself to help them, reading their books about the "history of the Jedi Civil War: A work on progress".

One of the historian books, shows Revan as LS male, and that he still didnt came back from the unknown regions. The other, shows Revan as a LS female that is hiding on a known planet of the outer-rim. Then you just have to choose who's the right, and then -SUDDENLY- its true.

Of course the devs can give us better situations, but thats the main idea.
Silentscope001's Idea to Bring Back Exile and Revan:

Mr. Jedi Padawan, happy little Jedi Padawan, in K3, is about to become a full fledged Knight. All that is needed is one...final thing. The test of doom.

Now, the Jedi Padawan can easily get passed this, and skip the test by "cheating". If you cheat, well, congrats, you get to set Revan and Exile to canonical gender! No LS and DS points, you could easily assume that you really have not studied, and, you know, it's "just" a test.

Question #1: How did Revan end the Jedi Civil War?
LS: Revan saved the Republic and stopped the Jedi Civil War, by redeeming himself, and killing off Darth Malak, thereby protecting the Republic from the evil Sith.
DS: Revan killed Darth Malak and flew to Korriban to reunite the Sith. However, the Sith were fighting each other after Darth Malak's death, and the Revan soon fled Korriban to places unknown.

Question#2: You are right, good job! She is considered very infamous in certain parts of the galaxy for her role in starting the Jedi Civil War.
Male: Actually, it's "He". (NPC: Oh. Ooops.)
Female: I agree, but she is a great general who saved the Republic from the Mandalorian Wars. Revan is a savior, and I believed she did not fall willingly.
Female: Of course. I consider her evil as well.

Repeat this for the Jedi Exile, and you will be set.
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Old 01-11-2007, 02:24 PM   #30
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You should allow for the fact that there are fans who like the fem. Revan better. If it were made to be like how you questioned Atton in TSL, then that is fine. As to in the flesh appearance, that is something that I have to think about.

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Old 01-12-2007, 09:13 AM   #31
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I want a canon face for the Revan/Exile. It wouldn't kill me if Revan/Exile didn't look exactly how they did when I played as them.


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Old 01-12-2007, 11:42 AM   #32
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Someone asked to me, sometime ago, if they couldnt make a system that would acess previously saved games (of Kotor I and II), and determine their faces/alignement/gender. I'm unsure, since Kotor players usually have a lot of diffrent characters in diferent saves.
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Old 01-12-2007, 02:53 PM   #33
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It's better to determine those things ingame. What about players who haven't played Kotor I and II?
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Old 01-12-2007, 10:14 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Vaelastraz
It's better to determine those things ingame. What about players who haven't played Kotor I and II?
As Pottsie posted they can reply "I don't know." and have Revan & Exile set to canon.


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Old 01-14-2007, 10:01 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TKA-001
I want a canon face for the Revan/Exile. It wouldn't kill me if Revan/Exile didn't look exactly how they did when I played as them.
I don’t want a canon face for Revan and the Exile. It would suck if I couldn’t choose their appearances. Of course, it’s highly likely that they won’t even appear in KotOR III. Or, if they did, they would probably be wearing masks, for whatever reason/s.


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Old 01-15-2007, 09:56 AM   #36
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Indeed. The problem is solved if they do not appear at all.

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Old 01-16-2007, 09:05 AM   #37
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Hello!

And "indeed I agree". Personally, I want the whole world to be ticked off.

Yep, make Revan black! :P


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Old 01-17-2007, 12:33 AM   #38
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I don’t mind if Revan and the Exile don’t make appearances in KotOR III, just as long as they aren’t treated like they don’t exist, or are cheaply killed off in the background. This is of course, presuming that KotOR III will have anything to do with its predecessors.


"Here is my final point. About drugs, about alcohol, about pornography and smoking and everything else. What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I ****, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?"

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Old 01-17-2007, 02:29 PM   #39
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I would think it would considering that we were left hanging in TSL with the Ebon Hawk flying off if you were LS to the Unknown Regions. That ending reminded me of LOTR with its endings until ROTK. Maybe that is what we are going to suffer with for now.

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Old 01-17-2007, 06:36 PM   #40
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I would think it would considering that we were left hanging in TSL with the Ebon Hawk flying off if you were LS to the Unknown Regions. That ending reminded me of LOTR with its endings until ROTK. Maybe that is what we are going to suffer with for now.
<Offtopic>

This is nothing against you JM12 but this is one of my pet peeves.

Quote:
A trilogy is a set of three works of art, usually literature or film, that are connected and can generally be seen as a single work as well as three individual ones

One of the most popular "trilogies" of fantasy books, The Lord of the Rings by J. R. R. Tolkien, is not a trilogy, though it is often referred to as such. Tolkien regarded it as a single work and divided it into a prologue, six books, and five appendices. Because of post-World War II paper shortages, it was originally published in three volumes. Sir Stanley Unwin, Tolkien's publisher, also split the novel into three parts to garner separate book reviews for each book of the 'trilogy', and thus (hopefully) spike book sales. It is still most commonly sold as three volumes, but has also been published in one-volume and seven-volume editions (as it is also split into six books and the appendices).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trilogy

</Offtopic>


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