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Thread: Vaklu vs. Talia (Who Would You Choose? Who Did Onderon Choose?)
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Old 01-16-2007, 12:30 PM   #1
SilentScope001
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Vaklu vs. Talia (Who Would You Choose? Who Did Onderon Choose?)

Yep. Vaklu vs. Talia. Strange that no matter what happens, Kreia praise you for your choice (more praise for Vaklu, since you also manage to keep Onderon's beliefs alive, rather than be smashed and crushed. Also strange that Kreia stresses that Onderon would never be attacked if Vaklu takes over, but does not state the same for Talia..) I really do not know. On one hand, Vaklu knows how to fight. He led the resistance against the Mandalorians, after all. But all his supporters admit that he is a swell liar, who allied and then (if you work with him) betrayed the Sith. Vaklu seems capable, but Talia seems...honest.

So this is just a poll to see who would you support. There is also something else I would like to wonder...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allornix
Onderon was a classic example of David Brin's snide observation that SW was all about the chose between elite. The "Light Side" option went sides you with a queen that 75% of her population wanted out of office. Vaklu was the popular vote, but he was a total jerk.
I always thought that Vaklu and Talia's popularity was fairly equal. I never knew or thought that Talia was hated by everyone. Is that true? If so, then I may have to be forced to support Vaklu.
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Old 01-16-2007, 01:30 PM   #2
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When I played the game, I always got the impression, that Thalia is the lightside choice, and Vaklu the Darkside choice.

But actually Vaklu may be more capable to lead Onderon then Thalia is. It just so happens that he's ruthless and a liar. And he got violent supporters unlike Thalia. I would probably stick with Thalia, Vaklu just seems to be soley interested in power.
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Old 01-16-2007, 01:34 PM   #3
Titanius Anglesmith
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This is kind of a hard choice. I'm not really sure who I'd side with. Talia is the "good" and honest one but not the best leader. Vaklu is stronger and a much more capable leader, but he's a liar and seems to be only interested in power. But with all that, mostly because she seems like the "light side" choice, I would side with Talia.


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Old 01-16-2007, 02:18 PM   #4
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Talia light side, Vaklu dark side.
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Old 01-16-2007, 02:53 PM   #5
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I would side with Thalia.... The best leaders are the ones who don't actually want power but want to do the best job for the people... Which I think Thalia is, Vaklu wants power and if he came into power regardless of if 75% of people think he should come to power he is a DS choice... Around 60% of Germans voted for Hitler (if I recall correctly) does that mean he was a good choice? He was a strong leader, but also became the most revialed (sp) man in history... I would far rather a Thalia than a Vaklu... As Vaklu would follow, the Hitler, Stalin and Mao style of authoritarian regime.



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Old 01-16-2007, 02:57 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathan7
I would side with Thalia.... The best leaders are the ones who don't actually want power but want to do the best job for the people... Which I think Thalia is, Vaklu wants power and if he came into power regardless of if 75% of people think he should come to power; around 60% of Germans voted for Hitler (if I recall correctly) does that mean he was a good choice? He was a strong leader, but also become the most rivialed (sp) man in history... I would far rather a Thalia than a Vaklu... As Vaklu would follow, the Hitler, Stalin and Mao style of authoritarian regime.
Wow...why can't I think up stuff like that? When I think of it that way, the choice is clear.

Thumbs up for that post!


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Old 01-16-2007, 03:14 PM   #7
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Talia for me. I don't like oppressive obnoxious wanna-be rulers.


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Old 01-16-2007, 04:12 PM   #8
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This first time, and most the time, I side with Talia. I got the impression Vaklu was only out for himself.

To me Vaklu was an isolationist, while Talia is willing to work with the Republic, even at the risk of losing some of their heritage. Vaklu will protect his people’s culture from outside influences, but only because he is protecting his own power. He is doing what is popular, but Talia is doing what will help her people survive and prosper in the long run.


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Old 01-16-2007, 04:49 PM   #9
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Can I just comment that Vaklu, if you look at him with force sight, is grey; not dark or light. As such while chosing him gives you either dark or light points it is another point towards the incorrectness of the Jedi Council (since Kavar took sides in a conflict with no good or bad involved). However, I will say that since the question is about who I would choose it would be Talia since she seems to fight better, i would think Onderon would choose Vaklu because he understands politics better and because he would clearly help Onderon suceed better in the future.

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Old 01-16-2007, 04:51 PM   #10
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I side with Talia. I didn't really care if it was lightside or darkside, it just seemed right. As a person who has an overwhelming suspicion of anyone with a position of governement power, I played the game of choosing the lesser of two evils. Almost every decision is a catch-22, meaning not everything is clear cut and dry. That is probably why no defense attorney in the world would want me to be on a jury

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Old 01-16-2007, 05:51 PM   #11
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Well, if Kreia is to be believed, Vaklu's reign is short and Talia's is long. Long enough, apparently, to evolve into a good and strong leader. Usually I go to the "LS" on this choice, though both normally end up with one or the other being summarily executed. Though I do recall one of the choices allowing for Thalia to put Vaklu on trial, albeit very reluctantly. Most of the time that I've gone DS, I kill Vrook in Khoonda and confront the other two at the enclave.
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Old 01-16-2007, 06:30 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
I never knew or thought that Talia was hated by everyone. Is that true? If so, then I may have to be forced to support Vaklu.
Just because the majority of people side with one, that makes you're choice automatic to match theirs? You should always stick to the opinion that you think is best. But as for the matter of choosing between Talia and Valku... I'd have to go with Talia. As many other people said in this thread, Talia isn't as capable of fighting in battles and wars as Valku, but she's honest, and that's the kind of attributes a good leader needs.

And if we are referring to Talia being LS and Valku being DS:
Although most of my accounts are DS in KotOR and TSL, if I personally would have to choose which side to join, I would much rather join the forces of good. So once again, I would chose Talia.


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Old 01-16-2007, 08:05 PM   #13
SilentScope001
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Quote:
Just because the majority of people side with one, that makes you're choice automatic to match theirs?
Yes. I do live in a republic known as the USA, and I do like the ability of the mob/electorate to choose who leads their nation. And if everyone hates Talia, then, well, they should not let Talia rule. I believe in democracy and rule by the people.

I mean...If we become so arrogant as to go against the will of the common people JUST because it is in their "best interest"...it seems plain wrong. What if some Jedi marches in and installs a person that you hate because that Jedi believes that this person would be the most capable to rule? I would not be happy, that's for sure.

I don't know how to explain it, but I do want other people to have a voice and not just me. I just don't like dictatorships, and Talia's rule possibly had turned into a dictatorship by not listening to her people's calls to resign.

Vaklu has lots of followers, and he has followers because people actually hate the Republic. Onderon joined the Republic and recieved nothing but demands. If it turns out most of the people hate the Republic, then it would possibly be best to either get the people to love the Republic (like Talia would later do if you side with her) or have the people's wishes be respected and let them be run by General Vaklu.

And the only reasons the Republic want Onderon to stay is so that "other planets do not leave the Republic, so therefore, trade can continue uninterrupted"? That does not sound pretty moral and LSed to me.

It really does not matter, at least not for me.
---
Quote:
Vaklu wants power and if he came into power regardless of if 75% of people think he should come to power he is a DS choice... Around 60% of Germans voted for Hitler (if I recall correctly) does that mean he was a good choice? He was a strong leader, but also became the most revialed (sp) man in history... I would far rather a Thalia than a Vaklu... As Vaklu would follow, the Hitler, Stalin and Mao style of authoritarian regime.
Actually, Hitler won on a purality. About 1/3 of the population voted for his party, which made him powerful. Since his party was powerful, he was then chosen to be Chancellor, and then the road to WWII was paved.

But, check Vaklu's alginment. Vaklu is netural because his LS goals (helping protect Onderon's future, stop the Republic from taking advantage of Onderon...just gaining indepedence) is countered by his DS means (lying about the Republic attacking Onderon, allying with the Sith). Of course, I think Queen Talia is considered LS according to Force Sight, due to her honesty.

Remember the history of Onderon. They willingly joined the Republic, but now hate it. If it turns out that the people of Onderon want to leave, well, they should leave, IMHO. Maybe.

Vaklu did hint for possibly taking over other planets, but, as Kreia state he would have a short regin, and I doubt his plans would go anywhere. And Vaklu actually did not wage war against the Republic...he actually lent troops to defend Citadal Station from the Sith. Does not sound like something Hitler would do.

I guess you could have a strong case for the passports, tight contorls, and that merchant who secretly hates his trooper that is guarding him. Still, they were done to save the Republic from "spies"...which turns out there was indeed Republic spies in Onderon. Guess prehaps all those contorls could be justified.
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Old 01-16-2007, 09:49 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
Wow...why can't I think up stuff like that? When I think of it that way, the choice is clear.

Thumbs up for that post!
Hehe, cheers dude, although to be honest I generally find your posts insightful, helpful and well thought out even if I don't agree with you, the same can be said for SilentScope as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Yes. I do live in a republic known as the USA, and I do like the ability of the mob/electorate to choose who leads their nation. And if everyone hates Talia, then, well, they should not let Talia rule. I believe in democracy and rule by the people.
Democracy is flawed because the majority of the population either dont care or are too stupid too understand what they are voting for... Most people just vote the way their parents did... Nazi Germany is an example of what can happen to any Democracy because the power lies with the people. There are flaws with whatever system you choose I'm not suggesting that there are better or worse alternatives to Democracy, but I dont think its as amazing as lots of people seem to think. Democracy also gave us Bush and Blair... personally I'm not a fan and I would site Iraq as why they are poo leaders!


Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Actually, Hitler won on a purality. About 1/3 of the population voted for his party, which made him powerful. Since his party was powerful, he was then chosen to be Chancellor, and then the road to WWII was paved..
Thats why I said if I recall correctly Its kind of coming back... Is along time since I did GCSE history.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Remember the history of Onderon. They willingly joined the Republic, but now hate it. If it turns out that the people of Onderon want to leave, well, they should leave, IMHO. Maybe.
Even if Onderon hadnt been a member of the Republic the Mandalorians would have invaded as it had a strategic importance within the galaxy... It is also better to be in the Republic as it gives you trade and you have many allies if you are attacked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Vaklu did hint for possibly taking over other planets, but, as Kreia state he would have a short regin, and I doubt his plans would go anywhere. And Vaklu actually did not wage war against the Republic...he actually lent troops to defend Citadal Station from the Sith. Does not sound like something Hitler would do.

I guess you could have a strong case for the passports, tight contorls, and that merchant who secretly hates his trooper that is guarding him. Still, they were done to save the Republic from "spies"...which turns out there was indeed Republic spies in Onderon. Guess prehaps all those contorls could be justified.
Well Hitler supported Franco in the Spanish Civil War. Vaklu had betrayed the Sith when double crossing with the Exile, so if they defeat the Republic who is next on the list? He would have recognized the threat the Sith were having seen them first hand on Onderon... A sort of the Enemy of my Enemy is my friend kind of thing... He would also have been a good tactition, so would have recognized that the Sith crave power so would eventually invade while the Republic would leave them alone unless provoked.

Vaklu's reign would be short, just look at some countries in Africa where they have coup d’état after coup d’état because people want power, so if Vaklu did it to gain power, whats to stop say Tobin in a few years time doing the same thing? Those who live by the sword, die by the sword.



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Last edited by jonathan7; 01-16-2007 at 10:53 PM. Reason: Forgot something
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Old 01-16-2007, 11:11 PM   #15
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Yeah, was under impression that Hitler had about 40% of popular vote. But, also thought that the planet seemed kinda equally divided, hence Vaklu's need to make a deal with the sith to defeat Talia and to gain control.
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Old 01-16-2007, 11:20 PM   #16
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Hehe, cheers dude, although to be honest I generally find your posts insightful, helpful and well thought out even if I don't agree with you, the same can be said for SilentScope as well.
Same to you too. I like hearing different views.

Quote:
Democracy is flawed because the majority of the population either dont care or are too stupid too understand what they are voting for... .
True, but the alternative, letting a dictator rule, may also be bad if the dictator happens to be an idiot like the people. Guess every system is doomed to be subverted.

Quote:
Thats why I said if I recall correctly
You said 60%. Not 1/3, as I said. 60% is a majority, while 1/3 really means that 1/3 of Germany supported the Nazi Party during the election.

Quote:
Even if Onderon hadnt been a member of the Republic the Mandalorians would have invaded as it had a strategic importance within the galaxy... It is also better to be in the Republic as it gives you trade and you have many allies if you are attacked.
Only reason the Mandalorains attacked Onderon was because Onderon was part of the Republic. They believed the Republic and Jedi would be so shocked that their planets would burn that they would march into battle. The Republic did, but the Jedi (expect for Revan's forces did not). Some people in Onderon believed that the Republic did not really help defend them from the Mandalorians, only Vaklu did. (The Jedi did come in to save the day, but after a long and harsh resistance movement by Vaklu, and it was too little, too late.)

Quote:
Well Hitler supported Franco in the Spanish Civil War.
Spain thought of intervening in WW2 on the side of the Axis, due to Hitler helping his war against the Spanish Republic, but decided against it...and lucky Franco he was, since his allies that propped him up got defeated, and he was able to rule until the 1970s.

Quote:
Vaklu's reign would be short, just look at some countries in Africa where they have coup d’état after coup d’état because people want power, so if Vaklu did it to gain power, whats to stop say Tobin in a few years time doing the same thing? Those who live by the sword, die by the sword.
I actually thought that Kreia state that "Vaklu will have a short regin" to mean that Vaklu would die of old age just after Onderon gained indepedence...an ironic end to this person that, admittingly, does not have very high moral standards to begin with. This was a man that had great ambitions and fought a warriors' death, only to die ignobly on a bed with an incurable illness, abanonded by all. He has gained power, but he was unable to enjoy it due to his sickness. A subtle punishment by The Force, denying Vaklu a warrior's death.

Never actually paid much consideration to Vaklu's troops betraying him, because they seemed very loyal, but you may be right in this situation, now that I consider it.

Anyway, the reason I posted this topic was that I was considering to do a LS Killer of Jedi storyline, in which I would kill off all the Jedi while staying on the Light Side. After all, the Jedi Masters would most likely fall the same way as Atris was, and they were "already dead" to begin with. Mainly, I like to see if Kreia's speech to you would be different than if you are DS. I wonder of either supporting Vaklu and killing off Master Kavar that way, or aiding Talia and then killing Kavar over at the Conclave, but I see that I could do both, and see if there is any differences.
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Old 01-17-2007, 12:50 AM   #17
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Well, my canonical Exile (which was the Exile in my first ever play through of TSL) is a rude, condescending, greedy, prejudice, heartless jerk, just like my canonical Revan is. They both wish to create an army with:

-Bastila, Mandalore, HK-47, T3-M4 and Atton in it. Of course, my Revan and my Exile would be leading this army. Kreia is dead; otherwise she’d be in this army too.

-The army would be made up of the rebuilt Mandalorians and an army of HK-51 droids.

The goal of this army would be to destroy the Jedi, the Sith, the Republic, the Exchange, Czerka Corporation and rule the galaxy.

Evil isn’t it? So what does this have to do with anything?

I wanted to gain influence with Mandalore, HK-47, T3-M4 and Atton in TSL because I liked them, so I did stuff they liked to gain influence with them, when they were in my party. So I sided with Vaklu and was all pro-Vaklu, just to make Mandalore happy and gain influence with him. Another reason why I chose Vaklu is because Talia is pro-Republic, but my canonical Exile is anti-Republic.


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Old 01-17-2007, 07:06 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
True, but the alternative, letting a dictator rule, may also be bad if the dictator happens to be an idiot like the people. Guess every system is doomed to be subverted.
Indeed, in Theory if you look at the Marxist charter any country that takes it up would be the most democratic country in the world, however we have all seen where comunism ends up; its unfortunate that power corrupts. To be honest democracy is the best model I think we have avalible, but I don't think it will work in some countries. I think countries like Iraq need a brutal dictator because some of the people are such muppets that they need to be kept under control.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
You said 60%. Not 1/3, as I said. 60% is a majority, while 1/3 really means that 1/3 of Germany supported the Nazi Party during the election.
Indeed, I wasnt disagreeing you jogged my memory and are correct... I will quote Wikipeia below, as Hitler had got the majority courtesy of being the biggest party? Even then I'm not entirely sure if thats correct thinking about it;

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
Nazism refers to the ideology held by the National Socialist German Workers Party and its so-called "Weltanschauung" when in power from 1933 to 1945. Free elections in 1932 under Germany's Weimar Republic made the NSDAP the largest parliamentary fraction; no similar party in any country at that time had achieved comparable electoral success. Adolf Hitler's 30 January 1933 appointment to the chancellorship and his subsequent consolidation of dictatorial power, marked the beginning of Nazi Germany. During its first year in power, the NSDAP announced the Tausendjähriges Reich ("Thousand Years' Empire") or Drittes Reich ("Third Reich", a putative successor to the Holy Roman Empire and the German Empire).


Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Only reason the Mandalorains attacked Onderon was because Onderon was part of the Republic. They believed the Republic and Jedi would be so shocked that their planets would burn that they would march into battle. The Republic did, but the Jedi (expect for Revan's forces did not). Some people in Onderon believed that the Republic did not really help defend them from the Mandalorians, only Vaklu did. (The Jedi did come in to save the day, but after a long and harsh resistance movement by Vaklu, and it was too little, too late.)
See from what I can recall from my different play throughs is that Onderon and Dxun were used as a staging ground for Mandalorian attacks, and the reason it took soo long for the Republic to take it back was due to such a large Mandalorian prescence. I also seem to recall that Onderon had a strategical importance, but perhaps that is my mind playing tricks on him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Spain thought of intervening in WW2 on the side of the Axis, due to Hitler helping his war against the Spanish Republic, but decided against it...and lucky Franco he was, since his allies that propped him up got defeated, and he was able to rule until the 1970s.
Indeed my point was more that Hitler being a tactition would of recognized that if he sided with Franco, Franco would either be on Nazi Germanies side or wouldn't get involved in a 2nd WW which would be beneficial to him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Anyway, the reason I posted this topic was that I was considering to do a LS Killer of Jedi storyline, in which I would kill off all the Jedi while staying on the Light Side. After all, the Jedi Masters would most likely fall the same way as Atris was, and they were "already dead" to begin with. Mainly, I like to see if Kreia's speech to you would be different than if you are DS. I wonder of either supporting Vaklu and killing off Master Kavar that way, or aiding Talia and then killing Kavar over at the Conclave, but I see that I could do both, and see if there is any differences.
Well, in my opinion you could have a LS killer of Jedi, if the Exile new (s)he was the last Jedi in the Galaxy and sensed that the Jedi Masters were no longer really Jedi and had become a threat to those around them or weren't bother to help. Eg. Zez el Muppet not bothering to help the Refugee's on Naa Shadaa and just watching the suffering, which I don't think any true Jedi could do, infact he even says hes not a Jedi any longer. Thus (s)he would kill them, if that makes sense?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
Well, my canonical Exile (which was the Exile in my first ever play through of TSL) is a rude, condescending, greedy, prejudice, heartless jerk, just like my canonical Revan is. They both wish to create an army with:

-Bastila, Mandalore, HK-47, T3-M4 and Atton in it. Of course, my Revan and my Exile would be leading this army. Kreia is dead; otherwise she’d be in this army too.

-The army would be made up of the rebuilt Mandalorians and an army of HK-51 droids.

The goal of this army would be to destroy the Jedi, the Sith, the Republic, the Exchange, Czerka Corporation and rule the galaxy.

Evil isn’t it? So what does this have to do with anything?

I wanted to gain influence with Mandalore, HK-47, T3-M4 and Atton in TSL because I liked them, so I did stuff they liked to gain influence with them, when they were in my party. So I sided with Vaklu and was all pro-Vaklu, just to make Mandalore happy and gain influence with him. Another reason why I chose Vaklu is because Talia is pro-Republic, but my canonical Exile is anti-Republic.
Hehe, well if your going DS then Vaklu is the logical choice... I wasn't arguing against that... Can't have LS leaders if your wanting to rule the galaxy!!



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Last edited by jonathan7; 01-17-2007 at 07:31 AM.
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Old 01-17-2007, 10:57 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by goldberry
Can I just comment that Vaklu, if you look at him with force sight, is grey; not dark or light. As such while chosing him gives you either dark or light points it is another point towards the incorrectness of the Jedi Council (since Kavar took sides in a conflict with no good or bad involved). However, I will say that since the question is about who I would choose it would be Talia since she seems to fight better, i would think Onderon would choose Vaklu because he understands politics better and because he would clearly help Onderon suceed better in the future.

Street thugs are grey as well, as are exchange bosses...
I guess the devs didn't choose every Npc's alignement...
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Old 01-17-2007, 11:17 AM   #20
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Street thugs are grey as well, as are exchange bosses...
I guess the devs didn't choose every Npc's alignement...
Yeh, infact I think only force users come out as Blue or Red... Maye TSLRP will fix that though, it always annoyed me that pretty much everyone is grey... They should be different shades of blue and red with very few grey people walking around.



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Old 01-17-2007, 02:32 PM   #21
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Actually when you meet that bounty hunter in Khoonda and see his alignment, well it is red. You can see that he is evil to the bone.

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Old 01-17-2007, 03:37 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by jonathan7
Yeh, infact I think only force users come out as Blue or Red... Maye TSLRP will fix that though, it always annoyed me that pretty much everyone is grey... They should be different shades of blue and red with very few grey people walking around.
Actually, I'm pretty sure you that Talia shows up as blue. Also the guy that JM12 mentioned shows up as red. There are probably a bunch of others, I just need to look for them.


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Old 01-17-2007, 04:07 PM   #23
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Actually when you meet that bounty hunter in Khoonda and see his alignment, well it is red. You can see that he is evil to the bone.
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Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
Actually, I'm pretty sure you that Talia shows up as blue. Also the guy that JM12 mentioned shows up as red. There are probably a bunch of others, I just need to look for them.
Guess I stand corrected I must confess its not a force power I used much as when I did use it on Naa Shadaa everyone was grey except my party who were there relevant alignment colours, which you would of thought everyone would have been.



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Old 01-17-2007, 05:17 PM   #24
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Actually, I'm pretty sure you that Talia shows up as blue. Also the guy that JM12 mentioned shows up as red. There are probably a bunch of others, I just need to look for them.
The Smugglers on Dantoonie are DS. So are Vaklu's troopers. In what has to be a bug, the Hissis monsters that are spanwed by Dark Side eneriges that you fight on Korriban are LS.

You know how strange it is that neturality is Green, but Kreia and you (if you decide to go the Grey side) are the only people that are Grey.
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Old 01-18-2007, 08:31 AM   #25
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Vaklu was a dead man when he took a shot at the Ebon Hawk carrying my DS Exile.
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Old 01-18-2007, 09:53 AM   #26
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Honestly, neither of them.

If I was an Onderonian I would want to overthrow the monarchy and establish a new, working democracy.

From the Exile's perspective I guess I would side with Talia, but I would only get involved in order to save as many lives as possible, and because of Kavar.

I wouldn't side with Vaklu at all. He seems pretty evil to me.


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Old 01-18-2007, 02:26 PM   #27
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Like the object of the game, it all comes down to choice and how you approach the situation. Two people could be looking at the same evidence but draw different conclusions.

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