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Old 02-01-2007, 03:57 PM   #41
bluewhale
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I'm not sure if it wasn't clear, but I am by no means saying I don't want a reason. I definitely want a reason. The reason I cited those examples I did is because almost all epics have a reason. Some are much better than others, but the epic as a story wouldn't have existed and be used so often if they weren't believable in some regard. For K3, part the reason is already there. If the PC is force-sensitive, they are different from everybody else in that way, and then over the course of the game becomes much more powerful. It will definitely need to be much more filled out and believable than that, but it's just a place to start. In many other epics, it may seem that at first, the protagonist is just like everyone else, but over the course of the story you see the things that set them apart. Just because they start off as not very powerful doesn't mean they are common. As for the PC, it doesn't mean there shouldn't be a good explanation for why they can go up against the True Sith. I am in no means advocating poor excuses, poor game design or a weak story, and I really hope that isn't the impression people are getting from my post.

I'm curious as to why you want a fixed race? I think it's still possible to be able to choose from different races (to an extent, I think having three choices would be sufficient without making things too complicated) and still being able to keep both a fixed background and story. I'd like to hear your reasons.

As for fixed backgrounds, I wasn't saying that I didn't want those, either. I definitely want a fixed background and to some extent, a fixed story. There should continue to improve on the freedom of K1 and K2 to choose which path you want to follow. However, I don't want the game to be like Morrowind, where you basically start off in a boat and then go do whatever you want. After a few hours into that game, I wasn't sure what I was supposed to be doing, didn't know anything about any of the characters, story, or where I was supposed to go, and basically stopped playing. The PC should have a back story, but it shouldn't be one that imposes limits on the connection and freedom you feel as a character, as I felt the back story in K2 did. I can see where you're coming from in what you say about feeling burdened by the past in K1, but that's why I thought the plot twist was so effective. It was who you were, but you are more or less a completely different person over the course of the game, and so your back story didn't really impede on the character you play. Every story-based RPG does basically what you want in your explanations for wanting a fixed background. Look at Fallout, look at the Final Fantasy games, look at Zelda. Many of them start off with a very basic storyline, telling you who you are, and then from there, you find out more along the way through various quests. I'm not saying K3 should follow these lines. I want K3 to be as recognizable and unique as a KotOR game should be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
With a fixed background, the Game can provide missions based off that background and give them more creativity. Without a fixed background, the Game is FORCED to give general missions, without going into detail of the background, because you come up with it. That's lazy game design. We need a fixed story.
This is also part of the problem I had with K2. How many of the sidequests in the game had anything to do with your back story or giving you more insight into your character or the NPCs? Many of them just felt somewhat random, where in K1 the sidequests either gave you more insight into the crew, populated the game world with other interesting people, or were simply things that were enjoyable in their own right.

I know this board is fiercely defensive of K2, to the point where I am hesitant to talk about it as it seems that contrary opinions aren't welcome. I don't hate the game. There were plenty of things about it that I really liked, but equally as many if not more things that I didn't, and as such have very mixed feelings about it.

Edit: To SilentScope, I reread this and hope that it doesn't sound too curt. I think I was just slightly flustered at the impression that you got from the other post, and so now just wanted to make sure that you didn't get the impression of any hostility from this one, as there is none intended.

Last edited by bluewhale; 02-01-2007 at 05:39 PM.
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Old 02-01-2007, 05:41 PM   #42
SilentScope001
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I'm curious as to why you want a fixed race? I think it's still possible to be able to choose from different races (to an extent, I think having three choices would be sufficient without making things too complicated) and still being able to keep both a fixed background and story. I'd like to hear your reasons.
It's possible somewhat to play racial tensions into the game. For example, in K1, you saw that Preacher on Taris, talking about how aliens are evil, and trying to sway them to your side. If, say, you were a Tw'ilek...I think that Preacher would try to lynch you rather than peacefully attempt to gain you onto his side.

In K2, the Human discrimnation gets reversed. Instead, on Nar Shadda, it's the Humans who have no rights, and the Alien races that have total contorl. Even the Jekk' Jekk' Tarr is off-limits to humans, thanks to those posionus fumes. If, say, you were some other race, you may be treated with more respect from the people in the bar, as well as not having to learn that Force Breath power from Kreia (you're an alien.)

Also, would you be able to romance, say, with Handmadien if you are a Twi'lek? No. Handmaiden would not see you as beautiful, but more as a ugly, green-like Alien race who should be bashed in the skull. But, if you are Human, the Handmadien will cosy up to you and see you as a father figure.

So the storyline can change somewhat via what race you have (in a subtle method). By keeping it Human, you can allow for these sort of stories to occur (and if you are not human, you may have to put triggers to change it...) It would interere totally with romances. Sure, a Cathar would be able to romance with a Human...but there was no point to it really, and that Cathar is a bit mental. I doubt it can really happen for others...and if it does, it really strains credbiliaty.

In other words, it's too complicated really.

Quote:
As for fixed backgrounds, I wasn't saying that I didn't want those, either. I definitely want a fixed background and to some extent, a fixed story. There should continue to improve on the freedom of K1 and K2 to choose which path you want to follow.
Okay.

Quote:
If the PC is force-sensitive, they are different from everybody else in that way, and then over the course of the game becomes much more powerful.
Then why not any OTHER Force-Senstive? I mean, say replace the Jedi Padwan with Disciple. Or Atton. Or Handmadien. Or...some other random Jedi? You need a reason that you are the ONLY one that can fight this threat...otherwise, you make the True Sith look bad, and not only that, you make others look bad.

You agree with me on this point, but I am stressing that being Force-Senstive is not enough differination, since there are thousands that are Force-Senstive.

Revan can kill Malak since Revan was a powerful Jedi Knight. Exile can kill Nihlius because The Exile is a wound in the force. The Jedi Padwan can crush the True Sith...because? Let hope the developers can answer that question in a nice manner.

Quote:
The PC should have a back story, but it shouldn't be one that imposes limits on the connection and freedom you feel as a character, as I felt the back story in K2 did. I can see where you're coming from in what you say about feeling burdened by the past in K1, but that's why I thought the plot twist was so effective. It was who you were, but you are more or less a completely different person over the course of the game, and so your back story didn't really impede on the character you play.
Was I? No. I was not a different person. I was Revan. Like it or not, I was Revan, and a mindwiped Revan at that. I was not a completely differnet person, I was merely a brainwashed Padwan who is being subtly infuleneced by Revan's past. It did impede on the character I played...no longer was I born on Dellida, no? No longer was I a feared spice smuggler, drafted and pardoned by the Republic. It was all a lie.

I dislike it, as you can see. You like it. It's okay. Just note that for every admirer of K1, there is also someone who does not admire it.

For K2, the past was fixed, but...different. You fought in the war, and then you left it. Why you fought in the war, why you lost your connection to the Force, why you did this, that all is defined quite well.

Quote:
This is also part of the problem I had with K2. How many of the sidequests in the game had anything to do with your back story or giving you more insight into your character or the NPCs?
There was less emphasis on NPCs, yes, but then again, I feel no need to worry about saving Carth's son for the 900th time. Besides, your NPCs are nothing more than disposble canon fooder, and I like that.

There was a lot of emphasis on the PC's character, though.

1. Atris, The Jedi Master Cutscene that shows you being exiled, the whole Jedi Master Ordeal. You know this, of course. This is the main story.
2. The Mandalorian Clans on Dxun allows you to understand more about what happened at the Battle of Dxun which you fought in. There is a datapad on the Dxun battle.
3. Dantoonie. You can hack into the protocoll droid, and see a hologram of Vrook and Vandar talking about you, and about how you were a "medicore Jedi...with lust for power".
4. Korriban's Hidden Tomb. This is where you not only gain more information on your past, but also get to detail it. This is where you see yourself being recurited by Malak and later fighting on Dxun. You decide what you say in those cirmustances, defining who you are.
5. HK-47's chatting about the Mandalorian Wars, and how Revan lured you to this trap.

Quote:
I know this board is fiercely defensive of K2, to the point where I am hesitant to talk about it as it seems that contrary opinions aren't welcome. I don't hate the game. There were plenty of things about it that I really liked, but equally as many if not more things that I didn't, and as such have very mixed feelings about it.
This board is actually not fiercely defensive. I can say there are a lot of people that prefer K1 here, and that K2 supporters are in the minority. I do say however that it is a good game, and that I like it.
---
You know what I am fearing? K3 is going to go and disappoint everyone. Me, and you. I am going to be pemmestic and state that K3 will be a comrpomise between K1 and K2, but because of that, it will make a very, VERY bad blend. K3 will not have the black and white storyline of K1, nor the relativistic story of K2, and it will be considered quite terrible like ROTJ. It will try to please everyone, and end up pleasing no one. It may...stink.
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Old 02-01-2007, 09:35 PM   #43
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Hmm... your points are valid for not having multiple races. It would be slightly more complicated, but I guess when I was thinking about it, I didn't see it as needing to be any more complicated than the way it is now, with just slight differences for genders. The developers could address racial issues if they wanted, but I don't think it would be that hard to make it so new races were just more or less having new male/female heads, the way some mods already do. As for romances, I guess I don't find the idea at all an issue, I see no reason why a human couldn't fall in love with a Twi'lek or other mostly-humanoid species. I do realize that not everyone would be comfortable with the idea, though, I just disagree on the aspect of credibility. Maybe it's partly because I grew up with comic books, so the idea of inter-species romance isn't new to me. I mean, the X-men and other superheroes are almost a different race in a sense, and some look very different than your average humans, but they still manage to have plenty of romances, some with regular humans. I dunno.

Quote:
You agree with me on this point, but I am stressing that being Force-Senstive is not enough differination, since there are thousands that are Force-Senstive.
I don't think I made this clear enough in the last post, I apologize. I said that being Force-Sensitive was part of the reason, but only a start. I agree, there would still definitely need to be more to it. Let's hope we're both surprised by the ingenuity of the reason.

About the differences between the games: I guess we'll agree to disagree on K1 and K2, then.

Quote:
There was less emphasis on NPCs, yes, but then again, I feel no need to worry about saving Carth's son for the 900th time. Besides, your NPCs are nothing more than disposble canon fooder, and I like that.
This is where our reasons for playing vastly differ. One of the main reasons I play is to get to know the characters and to grow to care about them. It's one of the main things I didn't like about K2, the vast lack of development for most of them. I don't want them to be cannon fodder. I want them to be believable people that you are glad to share a journey with.

Quote:
This board is actually not fiercely defensive. I can say there are a lot of people that prefer K1 here, and that K2 supporters are in the minority. I do say however that it is a good game, and that I like it.
I guess I thought that because many of the discussions I've seen where someone shares their slightly, or very, negative opinion on K2 ends up with a few people leaving very short comments saying they agree, and the rest almost being a pile-on of long comments by others refuting the poster's opinion, sometimes getting dangerously close to being insulting. I know many people have differing opinions and preferences to the games, but it seems difficult to talk about K2 without people getting a little frustrated. I had a long, long post I wanted to write after finishing the game, as I had very strong feelings about it, both good and bad. I'd still like to write it sometime, but I guess I'm much more apprehensive to do so now than I was before.

Quote:
You know what I am fearing? K3 is going to go and disappoint everyone. Me, and you. I am going to be pemmestic and state that K3 will be a comrpomise between K1 and K2, but because of that, it will make a very, VERY bad blend. K3 will not have the black and white storyline of K1, nor the relativistic story of K2, and it will be considered quite terrible like ROTJ. It will try to please everyone, and end up pleasing no one. It may...stink.
Well then, I hope, for both our sakes, that you are wrong.
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Old 02-01-2007, 10:00 PM   #44
SilentScope001
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Well then, I hope, for both our sakes, that you are wrong.
Amen.
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Old 02-01-2007, 11:33 PM   #45
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Force sensitive? Yes, definitely. How else are you going to "suddenly" become strong in the force and save the galaxy?

Different races would be nice to allow diff circumstances, but the developers might restrict you to human or just a few choices. More choices = more content = longer production = costlier production (Also why KOTOR3 should be on dvd instead of 10 install discs).

You could start off younger, like in Fable. Maybe some kid as a padawan or Sith apprentice or on a remote world where an Obi-wan prequel helps train you?
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Old 02-07-2007, 04:47 AM   #46
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Wow. Thanks for contributing so much to my topic SilentScope001 and bluewhale. I’ve been convinced that a fixed back story with a reason that explains why the PC of KotOR III’s force connection increases rapidly over a short period of time, making him/her powerful enough to take on the big guns of KotOR III (like what we got with Revan and the Exile) is necessary. It seems to be the best working solution.


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Old 02-07-2007, 02:50 PM   #47
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I think it might be nice if you could be trained by the Sith instead of Jedi...

You would be captured and taken into some sith academy where you would
be forced to learn the ways of the sith and then when you would be deemed
ready you would be send on some assasination mission for example... And at
that time you could then choose to try to turn your back on the sith ways..
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Old 02-08-2007, 01:46 AM   #48
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I agree with Prime about the theme of redemption in Star Wars. We’ve seen far too much of it. I don’t want to see any DS’ders be redeemed to the LS in KotOR III. Sure, the effort can be made to redeem someone, but no matter what, I’d like to see all redemption attempts at any character in KotOR III fail, to avoid repetition. If the PC or any of his/her party members go DS, then there’s no turning back. So for that reason only AJL, I don't want to start out as a Sith or be someone who was a former Sith.


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Old 02-13-2007, 11:47 PM   #49
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I think that you should actually start as a kid and after a few hours of gameplay skips ahead to you as an adult. You have completed your jedi training etc.

I think it should be an anakin kind of person, sum1 with lots of medichlorians, that makes them powerful
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Old 02-14-2007, 04:07 AM   #50
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hey guys , new idea, and i know this may suck but hey its 8.45 a.m i just got into work...(im tired!!)

n e way, how about your character, as a young 'un, your a force sensitive (quite strong-not Uber powerful though) born on a planet that isnt too fond of the force (there gotta be one somewhere, possibly rim worlds?) and is considered akin to witch craft.
thier home was then destroyed in the mandalorion wars (or another wars/battles of some sort) and the PC was captured by a faction of some sort (sith mandalorian etc) and enslaved. and then using you force powers that you have worked on whilst you were a kid, and whilst in slavery planning your escape, you get away and make your way to somewhere where you get picked up by the jedi (or sith) and - someone continue story from there as thats too much for me, i just wanted to put the Secret power idea in. (see below)

and why were the slavers unaware of you abilities? why werent you killed on your own world?
heres where the 'special power/reason' comes in, due to your natural kinship with the force and the hatred of it on your planet you were forced to hide you powers and affinity to the force to avoid persecution, this has given you the ablility.....wait for it...... to cloak your force abilities from others!!!

start trumpets -DaDA!! cue parade and other such stuff to mock my stupidity as im sure someone is gonna point out this cant be done for some reason.

but seriously, would be cool, PC wouldnt be Uber powerful, just as most people want, he has a special power in that he cant be detected by force users (and Exile/Neo-Nihilus), hence why he'd be good, nihilus would see the PC coming and using his force powers (as you slaughter your way through his minions) but when you confront him he senses NOTHING, now would he seriously DARE try to force feed him, knowing what Exile did to the original nihilus? then you would end up fighting him straight. and the True Sith would have major problems finding this guy,

so? comment, queries, suggestions?


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Old 02-14-2007, 03:31 PM   #51
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i think starting as an initiate in a sith academy would be an interesting change. you could be training one day and then find out that a jedi has infiltrated the academy. everyone is a suspect, including yourself, and you try to find out who it is. you find the jedi and for some reason you have a choice to make. either you can turn them in or you can help them. (starting point for LS and DS sides of the story).
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Old 02-24-2007, 10:53 PM   #52
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I think that you should play as a Jedi initiate when suddenly, the Sith attack and all of those Jedi are killed- ie, you receive no training other than the basic realization that you are connected to the Force. Infinite possibilities. But in order for the new character to come anywhere close to being as epic or loved as Revan or the Exile, they need to make him a major character as far as the galaxy is concerned. He needs to become a huge icon and do amazing things. There's simply no way an "in the shadows" character like the Exile can ever surpass Revan in greatness, simply because we want to see epic things. And to be honest, the new character needs to be better than Revan. No matter how much I love Revan being the most powerful person ever, they have to keep up the idea that everyone can be beaten.


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Old 02-25-2007, 08:19 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluewhale
I wasn't sure if that was clear in my post, but I would also really prefer that the character start out without any affiliations either. It would make more sense, and give the player more freedom.
The problem with that is that Jedi and Sith are undoubtedly the most powerful forceusers around, so if you belong to neither, then why can you grow powerful enough to defeat the true Sith?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
I do want the PC to have a Force Connection and be the only one that can destroy the True Sith. Why? Because if he's just some nobody...and he smashed the True Sith, then why not SOMEONE ELSE?
Actually, I think bluewhale already gave a very good reason for that (I can't believe I didn't think of this myself...)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluewhale
For K3, part the reason is already there. If the PC is force-sensitive, they are different from everybody else in that way
Now, I know SilentScope001 has already asked, then why not some other force-sensitive? Well, what other force-sensitives are there? The whole point of TSL is that the exile is the last one, because Sion and Nihilus have killed everyone else. Okay, so there are jedi masters out there in TSL, but they all die during the course of the plot, and the exile then goes away to join Revan's crusade against the true Sith.

So how many jedi does that leave us with? None. The only ones we could count are Bastila and the exile's companions, if the exile was LS. Then again, a trained young adult who is only just become a padawan has a definite advantage over the exile's companions, because this person has already had years of training, while the companions know the force only through a fairly short time (less than a year) with the exile. Besides, they gained power from force bonding with the exile, and now the exile is gone, so where does that leave them? We don't know, really...

Basically, the problem lies with the fact that Revan was already established as the uber-jedi of the KotOR era, and Kreia confirmed it in TSL by calling him the heart of the force. The exile is not as powerful, but has some very unique force bonding powers that makes him unique in other ways, particularly when combined with the force wound. It was an interesting way of making the character powerful in an obviously different way from Revan.

But to do a third uber-power strains credibility, I think. So does creating a huge background to explain those powers that the character has then either conveniently forgotten (Revan) or else is in total denial about (exile). If any of that is attempted, then K3 will be old hat from the beginning...

Fortunately we don't really need it. Simply being a jedi is already going to be fairly unusual in itself. Why? Because all the other jedi have either vanished or been killed.


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Old 02-25-2007, 10:20 AM   #54
SilentScope001
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Now, I know SilentScope001 has already asked, then why not some other force-sensitive? Well, what other force-sensitives are there? The whole point of TSL is that the exile is the last one, because Sion and Nihilus have killed everyone else. Okay, so there are jedi masters out there in TSL, but they all die during the course of the plot, and the exile then goes away to join Revan's crusade against the true Sith.
The "Lost Jedi"? Hm? They too are Force Senstive indivudals, just like The Exile. Not to mention Atris, another Force-Senstive who could have been a brand-new founder of the Jedi Order...if she didn't do the evil stuff she did.

The point was that The Exile was a Wound in the Force, which is why he was being taught/brainwashed by Kreia, why the Lost Jedi came to The Exile to became actual Jedi/Sith, why The Exile was able to grow so powerful, so quickly. This was the only reason why he could destroy The Exile, and a pretty good reason why he could kill off Kreia (as an ending to her training).

Quote:
So how many jedi does that leave us with? None. The only ones we could count are Bastila and the exile's companions, if the exile was LS. Then again, a trained young adult who is only just become a padawan has a definite advantage over the exile's companions, because this person has already had years of training, while the companions know the force only through a fairly short time (less than a year) with the exile. Besides, they gained power from force bonding with the exile, and now the exile is gone, so where does that leave them? We don't know, really...
There are other Jedi Masters that surivied the ordeal, less than 100.

Even so, it leads up to a question: Why not Bastila? Why not the Exile's companions?

Quote:
Basically, the problem lies with the fact that Revan was already established as the uber-jedi of the KotOR era, and Kreia confirmed it in TSL by calling him the heart of the force. The exile is not as powerful, but has some very unique force bonding powers that makes him unique in other ways, particularly when combined with the force wound. It was an interesting way of making the character powerful in an obviously different way from Revan.

But to do a third uber-power strains credibility, I think. So does creating a huge background to explain those powers that the character has then either conveniently forgotten (Revan) or else is in total denial about (exile). If any of that is attempted, then K3 will be old hat from the beginning...

Fortunately we don't really need it. Simply being a jedi is already going to be fairly unusual in itself. Why? Because all the other jedi have either vanished or been killed.
You may actually get a good point, but I do not think that is enough. Jedi are rare, even rarer than they were before, but they are OTHER Force-Senstives that can take your position. How about the Jedi Padawan's Bunkmate? Why didn't this Bunkmate destroy the True Sith? Or the Jedi Masters? Surely, they are powerful beings.

Remember, the True Sith are supposed to be dangerous...to be wiped out by a random Jedi means that it can also be wiped out by another random Jedi. And this weakens the True Sith, and this weakens K3 overall. The PC's Force Connection is actually a huge party of the story, and a very good reason why I like The Exile, for his connection made sense, and played a huge role in the plot.

I don't want to make an argument again, so, let just leave it at that, okay?


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Old 02-25-2007, 11:39 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by SilentScope001
The "Lost Jedi"? Hm? They too are Force Senstive indivudals, just like The Exile. Not to mention Atris, another Force-Senstive who could have been a brand-new founder of the Jedi Order...if she didn't do the evil stuff she did.
The exile has gone into the unknown regions to find Revan. Atris is most likely dead, and if she is not, it is because the exile spared her and then prompted her to give up the force as she sought redemption.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
There are other Jedi Masters that surivied the ordeal, less than 100.
I think that's a bit exaggerated...

Kreia: "The loss of many Jedi Knights in the war against Malak has further weakened the Republic.Not all Jedi Knights fell in battle... some were seduced by the dark side and the teachings of the Sith.Other Jedi Knights abandoned the Order, claiming the Jedi Council's teaching of Malak and Revan caused them to turn on the Republic.Where once there were thousands, by the war's end, barely a hundred Jedi Knights remained."

Kreia: "The Jedi Civil War destroyed the Jedi. By the war's end, barely a hundred Jedi remained. Many fell in battle... and many more were seduced by Revan's teachings.The Jedi Academy on Dantooine is nothing more than a crater that echoes with the ghosts of dead Jedi.And the Jedi Temple on Coruscant lies empty. The waters in the Room of a Thousand Fountains have fallen still, in reverence to the fallen Jedi... and those now lost."

Clearly we're talking about a hundred knights, not masters, and note that this was at the end of the jedi civil war, five years before TSL begins, meaning it is before Sion and Nihilus began their shadow war and before Katarr is destroyed. So any left would be from those 100. Five of them are the jedi masters of TSL. So are all those who died on Katarr. So is Bastila (if LS). Vima Sunrider must be out there somewhere as well, and perhaps Nomi is too.

Given that Sion is hunting down a jedi exiled by the jedi order a decade before, I think it's safe to assume that a good number of jedi has been killed by then. Otherwise, why would Sion bother to hunt an exiled jedi who lost his connection to the force?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Even so, it leads up to a question: Why not Bastila? Why not the Exile's companions?
I would include Bastila in the plot, so the pc would be in addition to her. I would also include the companions of the LS exile. But again, a padawan has an clear advantage over the exile's companions - he has gone through years of training to be a jedi that the exile's companions have not, except possibly Mical who never reached the position of padawan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
You may actually get a good point, but I do not think that is enough. Jedi are rare, even rarer than they were before, but they are OTHER Force-Senstives that can take your position. How about the Jedi Padawan's Bunkmate? Why didn't this Bunkmate destroy the True Sith? Or the Jedi Masters? Surely, they are powerful beings.
What bunkmates? There are none left... Or rather, if there are, the pc is more experienced and older than the others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Remember, the True Sith are supposed to be dangerous...to be wiped out by a random Jedi means that it can also be wiped out by another random Jedi. And this weakens the True Sith, and this weakens K3 overall. The PC's Force Connection is actually a huge party of the story, and a very good reason why I like The Exile, for his connection made sense, and played a huge role in the plot.
The exile's unique power was NOT a factor in the struggle against the true Sith, since the true Sith are not the villains of TSL. We might as well ask, if the true Sith are so all-powerful, then why didn't they simply attack instead of staging the Mandalorian Wars? I would say they have powerful individuals, but they don't sound like an empire to me.


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Old 02-25-2007, 12:31 PM   #56
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Okay, I'm going to admit right here that I didn't read through all the previous posts (I kinda lost patience towards the end of the first page).

I think the solution is kinda obvious. Make the protagonist a Mandalorian. Mandalorians hate force-users period, so that would pretty adequately explain WHY it is that he/she never KNEW that they were force sensitive. Maybe they accidentally used the Force a couple times, and scared of the implications, kinda did as the Exile did, cut themselves off from it. Maybe not literally, but just stopped using it. It would also neatly tie them in with the whole Kotor storyline. Revan led rebel Jedi to battle Mandalorians, Exile led rebel Jedi to battle Mandalorians, protagonist led Mandalorians. The protagonist would know of Revan and the Exile, as well as the Sith and the Republic. You could realistically choose lightside or darkside without it seeming contrived- after all, being a Mandalorian, you don't like force-users period, and it turns out you are one.

Maybe to make things different, have your first teacher be Sith. Someone that appeals to your martial spirit and casts the Jedi as the reason for the destruction of the Mandalorians. After that beginning period, you reach the pivotal point where you learn what really happened in the Mandalorian wars and have the opportunity to reverse your course- maybe you run into the new Jedi from Kotor 2, or even better, Mandalore. Maybe you're not forced to literally go full-fledged lightside, but instead decide to go grey to buy yourself some more time to investigate your past, and the Mandalorian War.

And that way you don't have to explain away why your Force connection is so strong- you never used it. And since you start as Sith, you develop it much more quickly than if you were to start as a Jedi.
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Old 02-25-2007, 12:42 PM   #57
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I've been playing with the idea of a force-sensitive Mandalorian myself, but it still leaves us with the problem that the character then has no prior training in force powers.

Besides, judging from what Canderous tells Carth/Mandalore tells Bao-Dur about their attacks on the republic. I don't like them much. Particularly when Mandalore tells Bao-Dur how much they respect the carnage he caused with the MSG, I really don't like them - warmongering, bloodthirsty pigs with no respect for life at all. In a word: Yuck!


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Old 02-25-2007, 01:45 PM   #58
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When Revan left for the Unknown Regions, he knew he could not take any of his friends with him; the path ahead would doom all he cared about. Revan told Canderous that the True Sith had helped cause the Mandalorian Wars to weaken the Galactic Republic; thus, the Mandalorian Wars were part of an even greater conflict to destroy the Jedi Order. Upon orders from Revan to unite the scattered remnants of the Mandalorians, Canderous soon recovered Mandalore's mask that had previously belonged to Mandalore the Ultimate, who had been killed by Darth Revan, and took up the fallen mantle of Mandalore. He returned to their hidden base on Dxun, a small moon orbiting Onderon. (this is from wookiepedia)

Good motivation for a Mandalorian to join the Jedi (the enemy of my enemy). Or maybe he/she joins the Jedi with the explicit purpose of identifying weaknesses in their armor so that he can later exploit them- maybe in the process he actually adopts the Jedi philosophy, maybe he doesn't.

On the other hand, there is certainly a good chance that he/she might choose the dark side, since on the surface it is far more appealing to a Mandalorian (kinda like the Handmaiden is inclined to more easily go over to the darkside since she's Echani).

It also would make it a little easier to explain the martial prowess, since Mandalorians are obviously highly competent warriors. It would also explain his/her ability to fight Jedi/Sith, since they practice to fight Force users.

And whatever you think about Mandalorians, they are at least civilized. They do have codes of honor. They don't betray one another. They don't torture their victims. They pick adversaries that they think would be challenging, not ones that are weak and easy (which is why they attacked the Republic). Technically, they would probably have a little more respect for Sith than Jedi, but would probably still disdain them because of their lack of honor.
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Old 02-25-2007, 01:51 PM   #59
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I've posted this in another thread wondering what we should be. I always thought we should have been a padawan at the time of the Jedi Civil War. You would have been quite strong in the force, something of an enigma. Everyone was wondering how you were getting powerful so quickly and why you were so strong in the Force and then...your master falls to the dark side. You are suspected of dealing with the dark side, and although you get an offer to continue training, you leave in disgust since your fellow Jedi seem to dislike you now. You're one of those Jedi Knights who "switched off the lightsabers". You come back when the New Jedi Order sends out the "casting call" since it's a new group of people who hopefully posess a new mentality about you.


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Old 02-25-2007, 07:08 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish.Stapler
I've posted this in another thread wondering what we should be. I always thought we should have been a padawan at the time of the Jedi Civil War. You would have been quite strong in the force, something of an enigma. Everyone was wondering how you were getting powerful so quickly and why you were so strong in the Force and then...your master falls to the dark side. You are suspected of dealing with the dark side, and although you get an offer to continue training, you leave in disgust since your fellow Jedi seem to dislike you now. You're one of those Jedi Knights who "switched off the lightsabers". You come back when the New Jedi Order sends out the "casting call" since it's a new group of people who hopefully posess a new mentality about you.
Accckk. I'm quite sick of enigmatically strong padawans. And even if you did decide to "switch off your lightsaber", then if you answer the Jedi's casting call, you're already making it biased towards the light-side path, and we already did that in Kotor 1.
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Old 02-25-2007, 08:14 PM   #61
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Points to you ztemplarz! I like your idea and your reasoning. I agree that Fish.Stapler’s idea is too biased towards the LS, as are many of the new KotOR III main character ideas.

Jediphile, there are four problems with your idea. You said that the PC of KotOR III has a clear advantage over the Exile's companions, as he/she has gone through years of training to be a Jedi that the Exile's companions have not, except possibly the Disciple who never reached the position of padawan.

a) That idea seems too biased towards the LS.

b) How do you explain why your character is at level one (he/she must be) at the start of the game? LS/DS Exile’s companions are not level one characters, so if your character is more powerful than them, then why would they (and they would be, since you have to start at level one) be at a higher level than the K3 PC for?

c) Why isn’t LS/DS Bastila (your master in your story) the PC of KotOR III? Shouldn’t the PC be the most powerful character in the party?

d) In your story, the new Jedi Order is led by LS Exile's companions or a set of replacable characters (DS Exile), yet the PC isn't? Why? If the PC 'has the advantage' over the Exile's companions or other less trained Jedi, then wouldn't he/she be better suited in a Council member/leader role of this new Jedi Order? Why would you train under them?


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Old 02-25-2007, 08:47 PM   #62
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Besides, judging from what Canderous tells Carth/Mandalore tells Bao-Dur about their attacks on the republic. I don't like them much. Particularly when Mandalore tells Bao-Dur how much they respect the carnage he caused with the MSG, I really don't like them - warmongering, bloodthirsty pigs with no respect for life at all. In a word: Yuck!
And that is the point exactly. The Mandalorians are supposed to be the copycats of the Barbarains in today's societies, like the Huns. Unlike the Sith who are doing it to gain DSPs (in other words, they have a REASON), they just destroy planets to have fun. They are meant to be warmongering, bloodthirsty pigs, and that why I love them.

It does sound too biased towards the Dark Side, but hey, the first two KOTORs' storyline were biased towards LS (somewhat, Revan was forced to help out the Jedi Council anyway...and the Exile did fight against the Mandalorisn in the Mandalorian Wars [altough you decide if you were doing it to save the people...or just to have fun in butchering]), it's time for some love for the DS.

And, I still want a reason for why the PC would be able to destroy the True Sith, starting off at Level 1...and then rising in power so quickly throughout the game to smash it. Of course, I just want a reason, I don't care what that reason is, that's for the developers to come up with and suprise us all.


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Old 02-26-2007, 01:17 AM   #63
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How about you don't become or play as a Jedi at all ? theres alot more to just being the all powerful Jedi, K3 might become fun in other ways, becoming somthing else. You should be able to choose to be whatever class you want, wether being a Jedi or not. The game could have a Star Wars Galaxies effect, in the way of playing as various classes/professions.
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Old 02-28-2007, 06:18 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogue Spy
How about you don't become or play as a Jedi at all ? theres alot more to just being the all powerful Jedi, K3 might become fun in other ways, becoming somthing else. You should be able to choose to be whatever class you want, wether being a Jedi or not. The game could have a Star Wars Galaxies effect, in the way of playing as various classes/professions.
KotOR III will most likely have a linear plot (not as linear as KotOR and TSL) but linear enough to the point where we will have no choice but to fight the big guns/major villains in KotOR III I assume. So no, not playing as a Jedi, or a Sith, or any type of force-user will not solve the “starting off as level one and ending up as a powerhouse” problem, it will only make it far worse.

The bottom line is, we need to be a Jedi, or a Sith, or a powerful force user in KotOR III, and after all, as much as I hate to use clichés, it is Knights of the Old Republic.


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Old 03-02-2007, 12:02 PM   #65
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I don't mind the idea of playing a Mandalorian war veteran, that would be a very cool way to come at the storey line especially if you meet up with Revan and the Exile.

But what I don't understand is why no-one wants to continue as the Exile?


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Old 03-02-2007, 12:58 PM   #66
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But what I don't understand is why no-one wants to continue as the Exile?
Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but for me it's because...

1. All the trouble associated with the Exile's alignment - is the exile LS or DS? It should matter, and if it does, then playing as the Exile would basically demand that the devs write a game for each possibility. I'd rather they write just one game that's really, really good.

2. The level problem..

Playing the exile would mean that you either begin at a high level or start over.

Now, if you begin at a high level, then which is it? In TSL you can go as high as level 50, but how many have? I certainly never did, and you can complete the game quite easily below level 27. So should the exile start at level 30? That would not go well with people who really did play to level 50. Those people who only played to level 27 or so, however, would find it odd if you're pushed up to level 50.

Besides, playing at high levels robs you of the progressive element of the game, where you build your character from nothing to greatness. We want that back, or at least I do.

I will NOT abide playing another "powerful jedi with complex history that has now conveniently lost all his/her powers and must start over." We've already done it twice in two games, and to do it thrice would be an insult. If we had to do it with the exile, whom we already did it for in the last game, then we add injury to that insult IMHO.

Conclusion: New character. Let Revan and exile by NPCs, perhaps playable late in the game.


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Old 03-02-2007, 01:51 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Conclusion: New character. Let Revan and exile by NPCs, perhaps playable late in the game.
Agreed, I think stories need to be finished, but I don't want it to be KOTOR 2.5, it needs continuity but it also needs to stand alone.

Regarding force connection, I need a lightsaber, so I'd like a Jedi/Sith character.


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Old 03-02-2007, 05:31 PM   #68
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@ztemplarz and Architect, that means that nearly every Sith and every Star Wars release was light side biased. Perhaps it is, but the point I'm trying to make is that nearly all of the most powerful Sith Lords or villains were at one point Jedi. Revan, Malak, Anakin, Quel-Droma,I can go on for a very long time. So what if they started out as Jedi? They forsook it and your PC can forsake it too. DS Revan ended up doing that.

and ztemplarz, the enigmatically strong padawans thing. I'm pretty sure that there's a lot of dialogue saying that the Exile was just a normal padawan, completely average in the force but having a unique ability to lead, so he was really just average in the ways most jedi are but posessed a gift most jedi don't need. Your character doesn't even need to be uber powerful, but that "dark side quick and easy path to power" is a reason why he could become a suspect and why he could want to leave the order. Being a Jedi Knight as well would account for his fast regaining of strength. Perhaps he could have known both Revan and the Exile as a tie-in point.

Personal speculation though.


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Old 03-02-2007, 08:05 PM   #69
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Fish.Stapler, the reason why I don’t want to start off KotOR III as a Jedi, or someone who was a Jedi (like in KotOR and TSL) is because as I’ve said, it’s too biased towards the LS. It’s forced, and to me, that’s not fair from a role-playing point of view.

Almost every Star Wars game is biased towards the LS apparently, so I think it’s about time there was a change. Not everyone wants to start off as a Jedi, or be someone that was.

While SilentScope001 made the good point that if why you joined the Jedi Order isn’t forced on you by the devs, then you could “make up the reason” why, so from a certain perspective, it doesn’t affect your role-playing.

However, I really like ztemplarz’s idea, for several reasons. I’d like to play as a say, middle-aged, skilled Mandalorian with a decent force connection, because:

a) This isn’t replacing one bias with another, because the difference is, you are BORN a Mandalorian, and are brought up into their culture. It’s not the same.

b) If you are someone who fought in the Mandalorian Wars, you are automatically tied into the previous games.

c) Being a Mandalorian under Mandalore, you have plenty of motivation and reason to do whatever quests you’d do in KotOR III, because you are under Mandalore, a big Revan and Exile fanboy. You get the point here.

d) While you could argue this is biased towards the DS, you don’t necessarily have to be a heartless jerk, like most Mandalorians are. You could notably be “different”, which makes you special, which makes you stand out. The reason could be because of your force connection.

e) The Mandalorians are renowned for their martial prowess and ability to put up a good fight against powerful Jedi and Sith. Look at pre-KotOR Mandalore and Canderous. They were good enough to give the likes of Kreia, Revan, Malak and the Exile a run for their money. Think about it, if you are a skilled Mandalorian who can USE THE FORCE, you don’t really need a “reason” to explain why you can take on the big guns of K3. You might also be destined to become the greatest Mandalore ever.

You have good reasons to be LS, DS or neutral (which could equate to becoming Mandalore and fighting against the Jedi and the Sith). The good LS reason = you are assigned to spy on the Jedi Order, but because you are “different” from most Mandalorians, plus your ability to use the force, you become a fanboy of the Jedi teachings, and become one. The good DS reason = you turn out to be a stereotypical Mandalorian in the end. You become a Sith, as their teachings greatly appeal to you.

You’d start out as neutral (perhaps slightly DS) and then your role-playing will decide if you truly are “different” than most Mandalorians, as some may speculate, or you just turn out to be a real brutish, DS jerk. That way, you avoid the repetitive theme of redemption, because you’re not redeeming yourself. You’re starting off as a sceptical, questioning fence sitter. Perhaps fighting in the Mandalorian Wars is what “changed you”, for good or ill.

It’s a fantastic idea ztemplarz. The best one I’ve read so far IMO.

@Jediphile, a, b, c and d (the four problems I have with your idea) are indeed difficult to answer/counter, aren’t they? No, I’m not trying to infer that avoiding answering my questions implies that I’m right (or am I?). Whether you answer them or not is up to you, but if you don’t, you can’t blame me for contemplating that you don’t, because you can’t counter them.
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Old 03-02-2007, 09:31 PM   #70
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personally I'd like to see a force-newb. All these players with "history" are cool, but I think it distracts from an otherwise interesting plot. Would KOTOR 2 really have been any different if our character was just a do-gooder trying to stop this evil Sith thing or a person making up for past sins? not really. the game would more or less be the same.

Same with Kotor 1. If Malak taunted us about how the Jedi order was making us JUST LIKE Revan, instead of being Revan. Same story, no real change.
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Old 03-03-2007, 06:04 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
Fish.Stapler, the reason why I don’t want to start off KotOR III as a Jedi, or someone who was a Jedi (like in KotOR and TSL) is because as I’ve said, it’s too biased towards the LS. It’s forced, and to me, that’s not fair from a role-playing point of view.
Were Revan, exile, Bastila and Zayne biased towards the LS? I don't think so - Revan and Bastila did fall to the dark side, and it was your choice whether they should embrace it or return to LS. Zayne was accused of being DS and chose to defy either possibility. Exile has the choice as well. Clearly being raised by the jedi order does not force any choice on you. I mean, look at Zayne and Bastila, whose background we do know something about. They were both given to the jedi order when they were very young. Is that forced? They didn't have a choice, but then they were also too young to make one. What if my character is a newborn on Coruscant with strong force sensitivity and poor parents - is it forced that they decide the character should be raised in the jedi order? No, because it's just training - clearly it in no way dictates your alignment choice. Besides, most Sith Lords we know seem to have come from the jedi order (Exar Kun, Ulic Qel-Droma, Revan, Malak, Bastila, Traya, Dooku, Anakin Skywalker, etc.).

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Originally Posted by The Architect
Almost every Star Wars game is biased towards the LS apparently, so I think it’s about time there was a change. Not everyone wants to start off as a Jedi, or be someone that was.
Well, it IS called Knights of the Old Republic. There are no knights among the Sith or the Mandalorians...

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
While SilentScope001 made the good point that if why you joined the Jedi Order isn’t forced on you by the devs, then you could “make up the reason” why, so from a certain perspective, it doesn’t affect your role-playing.

However, I really like ztemplarz’s idea, for several reasons. I’d like to play as a say, middle-aged, skilled Mandalorian with a decent force connection, because:

a) This isn’t replacing one bias with another, because the difference is, you are BORN a Mandalorian, and are brought up into their culture. It’s not the same.
I fail to see the difference between playing a Mandalorian, who is born with a disposition towards DS, over a jedi whom - according to you - is born with a disposition towards the LS. It is at least as forced if not more so IMHO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
b) If you are someone who fought in the Mandalorian Wars, you are automatically tied into the previous games.
So would anyone raised by the jedi order be given Sion's and Nihilus' shadow war.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
c) Being a Mandalorian under Mandalore, you have plenty of motivation and reason to do whatever quests you’d do in KotOR III, because you are under Mandalore, a big Revan and Exile fanboy. You get the point here.
Only if it is, again, forced on the player. Maybe I don't want to follow Mandalore, as he tries to suck up to Revan and exile. Maybe I think he's just a pathetic fanboy who disgraces the Mandalorians by turning us over to our enemies, just like Esok did. If that's what I want to do and I can't, then it's also forced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
d) While you could argue this is biased towards the DS, you don’t necessarily have to be a heartless jerk, like most Mandalorians are. You could notably be “different”, which makes you special, which makes you stand out. The reason could be because of your force connection.
That argument is just as valid for a jedi not being LS, I think. Nobody says that starting as a jedi you MUST be nice, goody-goody little Disciple-lookalike - you can be just as much of a jerk as you want to even so. Indeed, the chances for that are now greater than ever in the plot, given what shambles the jedi order is really in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
e) The Mandalorians are renowned for their martial prowess and ability to put up a good fight against powerful Jedi and Sith. Look at pre-KotOR Mandalore and Canderous. They were good enough to give the likes of Kreia, Revan, Malak and the Exile a run for their money. Think about it, if you are a skilled Mandalorian who can USE THE FORCE, you don’t really need a “reason” to explain why you can take on the big guns of K3. You might also be destined to become the greatest Mandalore ever.
The Mandalorians were cannon fodder for the jedi. Their strength lay in their determination, and they prayed upon the Republic's uncertainty and indecision. Once Revan and Malak led the Republic forces and were willing to make sacrifices, the Mandalorians began losing. Revan killed Mandalore. The Mandalorians were only better than the republic soldiers because they were so ruthless. Besides, if you're a Mandalorian (and I have suggested that myself in the past), then following your background while having force powers is clearly biased towards DS. I thought you didn't like the character being "forced." Indeed, how Revan, Malak and all the other jedi fell to the dark side because they were taught war by fighting the Mandalorians seems to confirm that. If I were a force sensitive Mandalorian, I'd much rather my character was raised by the jedi order, because then I'd have a background that tends towards DS and one towards LS. Which will I chooce? And, of course, I'll be an outcast because neither side will like me much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
You have good reasons to be LS, DS or neutral (which could equate to becoming Mandalore and fighting against the Jedi and the Sith). The good LS reason = you are assigned to spy on the Jedi Order, but because you are “different” from most Mandalorians, plus your ability to use the force, you become a fanboy of the Jedi teachings, and become one. The good DS reason = you turn out to be a stereotypical Mandalorian in the end. You become a Sith, as their teachings greatly appeal to you.
Your LS option is forced because I must be a spy, and so we're back to square one. In fact, we're not even on square one, because we have no reason why this character has a strong force connection that allows him to rise to high levels quickly in the plot. He was never a force-user before, if I understand you correctly, and so he has no advantage over any other force sensitive character we could imagine. And if he did have a history as an experienced force-user and fought in the Mandalorian Wars, then he would already be a dark jedi or a Sith...

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
You’d start out as neutral (perhaps slightly DS) and then your role-playing will decide if you truly are “different” than most Mandalorians, as some may speculate, or you just turn out to be a real brutish, DS jerk. That way, you avoid the repetitive theme of redemption, because you’re not redeeming yourself. You’re starting off as a sceptical, questioning fence sitter. Perhaps fighting in the Mandalorian Wars is what “changed you”, for good or ill.
An "indecisive" Mandalorian is someone who was already killed by more decisive Mandalorians. Besides, if you were a veteran from the war and embrace the LS, then you must confront what you have done in the past. Which means we're back to redemption again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
It’s a fantastic idea ztemplarz. The best one I’ve read so far IMO.
There's nothing new about it and it doesn't solve anything IMHO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
@Jediphile, a, b, c and d (the four problems I have with your idea) are indeed difficult to answer/counter, aren’t they? No, I’m not trying to infer that avoiding answering my questions implies that I’m right (or am I?). Whether you answer them or not is up to you, but if you don’t, you can’t blame me for contemplating that you don’t, because you can’t counter them.
Clearly I just did, and it didn't even take 10 minutes. Also, your argument does not address the deeper issue, which is why the central character of KotOR3 would have the ability to rise quickly in levels and become a powerful jedi or sith in almost no time. In the previous games that problem has been solved by giving you a troubled jedi background that you somehow cast aside and must now embrace again. I gave the character a background and platform to rise to greatness from. This idea gives us none, and so you might just as well play any lowly scoundrel from the streets of Corellia or wherever, since it just doesn't serve any purpose to the issue at hand.

And for the record, trying to "fish" for an answer or "bait" someone into responding is frankly trolling - whether I choose to respond or not is my choice, and you cannot infer anything from my silence, if I choose to say nothing. Now, I'm not angry with you, because I feel I know you and therefore conclude that was not your intent, but someone else might have been pretty upset with your tactic here, if he thought it was intentional. You really shouldn't do this in the future.


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Last edited by Jediphile; 03-03-2007 at 07:22 PM.
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Old 03-03-2007, 06:41 AM   #72
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Now that I have read some parts of this thread, not all forgive me for that, I can say some things about the character in my own plot with which I am busy with thinking / plotting / writing.
Let's say, the game begins. You create your character, it has the possibility of creating an alien race. A cut scene opening. Your main character is lying in your apartment in a republic military facility on coruscant.
You are dreaming.

You see your past self, in the Jedi Academy on Dantooine. Then the Sith attack (it's what happens in Kotor I). You see the jedi masters as well as your own trusted master fleeing to the transport. You fight. Then, some dark jedi paralyse you. You got captured. Then, you see yourself on the Star Forge. After that you have basically two memories. One were you escape the space station during the battle when Revan entered the star forge and the republic attacked. You find an escape pod and escapes to the unknown planet. But another, much more vague when someone else saves your life and the next thing you see is some crystal cave and yourself in a kolto tank.

But they both end with when you supposedly went to Dantooine and smash your lightsaber in front of the Jedi Council claiming "they abandoned you"

I know, it is forced but I can say that after some gametime you actually discover that you never left the Jedi order and you discover that only one of the two dreams is actually to some extent what really happened with you.

And why is this character actually able to defeat the True Sith where Revan and the Exile were not able to do that? Now, that has something to do with who you truely are which, just like with Revan and the Exile is revealed during the game. Unlike Kotor I and II I plan to make it fragmented. First you find out who you are and later why it is that you are the premium choice of defeating the True Sith.

I can also reveal that In this plot, there is also another candidate suitable to defeat them and she is also a party member.
What I can further tell you about the character:

1) Your character is unlike Revan and the Exile not a person with much leadership abilities.
2) Your character isn't that powerful. Maybe less powerful then Revan and the Exile but he/she has one ability which makes you very different and therefore be able to defeat the True Sith.

Because of this, I think it will become a very different game then Kotor I and II which adds some variety.

Final note: How does this character become strong in the force? It's simple. During your "work" as someone working for the Republic (non force sensitive classes available here, I don't much care about which and what can be selected) you will be attacked by a Sith Assassin. You are not able to defeat him but a Jedi, who happened to be at the right place at the right time can. She, your first party member, rescues you and tells you that you were the target. She makes clear to you that if you don't train to become a Jedi (again) these Sith will come after you again.
As you can make out that you cannot walk away and continue your job. The fact that this Assassin found you while your details are classified Republic data is proof enough you will have to train your force powers again to be able to deal with the Sith.

Somewhat like Kyle Katarn in Jedi Outcast, right? Don't worry, it is far different from that. There is much more to it.
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Old 03-03-2007, 10:21 AM   #73
SilentScope001
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khawk-Your idea doesn't exactly solve the problem. Nice cutscenes and all...but I rather play through those moments rather than see them as dreams. The reason it doesn't solve the problem is because you didn't tell us what is his strength. Unless, you are willing to leave it to Obisidan, in which case, it is a good idea.

The Architect=Jediphile does give some good points, and somehow, it does not seem as though it could sastify the force connection requirement, unless the Mandalorian finds out.

Jediphile-Your character has no such Force Connection. You even let the Main Character start off even more powerful than the "Jedi Masters" on the council (The Exile's companions). The companions has a strong Force Connection, they are Force Sensitves, and this is the source of their power. They all have been using it unconsisusly (Atton killing Jedi, Mira being a great bounty hunter, etc.).

You say that it makes the story seem wrong, but well...it cheapens the True Sith, and cheapens the game overall.

My View: I don't care as long as there is a Force Connection, it makes sense, and the background gives me enough lee-way.
===
A NOTE: All stories are forced. All backgrounds are forced. What if I didn't want to go into Exile in K2? What if I didn't want to throw my lightsaber into the ground? What if I wanted to, in rage, murder all the Jedi at the trial? What if I didn't WANT to fight with Revan and Exile during the Mandalorian Wars?

What if I didn't want to be secretly Revan in K1? Heck, what if I didn't even want to work for the Republic in K1, what if I allied with the Sith aramada?

As you can see, neither K1 or K2 gave us an open background. They forced us. To me, a Background is a "Character Sheet" that the GM gives you, and it's up to YOU to decide what happens.

You contorl the reason why you join the Jedi Order...and you also contorl the reason why you followed Manadolre. You hate Mandalore, but you decide he's the only solution to the decaying Mandalorian Race, and you decide that you want to grow more powerful so that you can launch an attack and kill off Mandalore, and steer the Mandalorian Race into a new war with the Republic and the Jedi Order. It is this contorl that I desire. Do I want to steer the Mandalorian to the LS Path? Sure...This Mandalorian was defeated by a Jedi after attacking him...and the Jedi "spared" him. It is this sparing that let the Mandalorian found out more about the Jedi, and let him gain some sympathy. Prehaps this Mandalorian was wounded, and it was the Jedi Order that actually healed the Mandalorian, and maybe taught him virtues such as compassions.

Basically, instead of having the Mandalorian PC say, "We defeated the Republic! We smashed it to itty-bitty pieces if it wasn't for Revan, but now Revan is on our side, so we will rise again and destroy everything! RAAR!"...

You can have him say: "I'm sorry."


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"The Cambodian government has established many exciting-sounding 're-education camps' where both intellectuals and everyday citizens can be sent at any time," Day said. Well, we at Barnes & Noble have always supported re-education in America, and we intend to extend this policy to our new customers." For every hardcover book sold, Barnes & Noble will donate a dollar to the Cambodian government to help re-educate local children.
Full Article Here

Last edited by Jae Onasi; 03-03-2007 at 03:48 PM. Reason: please avoid phrases that are impolite--thanks.
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Old 03-03-2007, 04:48 PM   #74
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Well, actually my plot could enable you to actually play those moments. I guess i'll just made it easy for the game developer to make a cutscene like that. Well, it wouldn't be my decision anyway. Obsidian doesn't use my plot off course. If they would? Well, I off course wouldn't claim credit for using my idea's but I probably have the right to do so. Other then that, I would have spoiled a lot on this forum.

And about my characters Strenght? Well, I don't want to spoil my plot before I actually publish it. You'll find out when I have finished / polished and published my story on this board. Hm, yes, I can say that if you think only the Exile could kill Darth Nihilus my new main character has a very different but somewhat similar ability against a power the True Sith use.
Revan / Exile doesn't have this ability.
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Old 03-03-2007, 05:14 PM   #75
Jediphile
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Jediphile-Your character has no such Force Connection. You even let the Main Character start off even more powerful than the "Jedi Masters" on the council (The Exile's companions).
No, I just gave the character years of training that the exile's companions did not have. TSL spans a year of less, and the exile's companions rose to whatever levels they ended up with in a fraction of that. So they have only practical experience, but lack most of the training a "genuine" jedi would have due to having gone through years and years of training, with the possible exception of Disciple (who did not even reach the rank of padawan).

The exile's companions are "found" or "discovered" jedi with all experience and no practice. The main character would be a "real" jedi with all practice and little experience to begin with. So he would not have the experience (= levels) of the exile's companions, but he would be better suited to resisting the lure of the dark side because of his years of training that the exile's companions did not go through.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
The companions has a strong Force Connection, they are Force Sensitves, and this is the source of their power. They all have been using it unconsisusly (Atton killing Jedi, Mira being a great bounty hunter, etc.).

You say that it makes the story seem wrong, but well...it cheapens the True Sith, and cheapens the game overall.
I have already stated that I do not agree with you on that point. You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but just because I have the gall to disagree with you, it does not automatically follow that I'm wrong. I'm entitled to my opinion as well.


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Last edited by Jediphile; 03-03-2007 at 07:28 PM.
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Old 03-03-2007, 06:46 PM   #76
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This is kind of going to be a random address of points in no particular order.

The Exile's companions may have raw force potential, but they don't have training. Just because Anakin had a lot of raw force power and used it to fly his podracer didn't make him more powerful than other Jedi.

Mandalorians are born and bred for war, but they're still human, twilek or what other species you want to have in there since the Mandalorian species has died out. They're like Mechwarrior clanners - strong warriors but not invincible. They were annihilated by the Jedi once they joined the wars.

If you're complaining the backstory would be forced, of course it is. You HAD to be Revan in K1. You HAD to be a Mandalorian war veteran in K2. You HAD to live with your past mistakes. You can't create your own character backstory (except for a certain extent like how you treated the council in K2) so of course the backstory is forced. This has been stated by both Jediphile and myself, but nearly all Star Wars releases are Light Side biased. Nearly all Sith get their start as a Jedi. The basic formula is

Forceuser + Training = Jedi
Forceuser + Training + Stimulus = Sith

It happens to a lot of Jedi.


When you have a Mandalorian join the Jedi Order you lack a big thing: motive (at least as far as I can see). Why would a Mandalorian want to join the Jedi Order? Sure, it could be under Mandalore's orders but why would the Jedi let a Mandalorian in? To a certain extent they were the True Sith's catalyst that wiped out the Republic...few trust them, much less the Jedi Order that was annihilated precisely because of them. Sure, you could let a Mandalorian in to retone for past crimes, but then all of a sudden there's the redeption thing that you don't seem to like. The Jedi have to actually let you in to the order, and if you want in you need a good motive. Redemption is probably the best motive of any.

But what if you had a Jedi Knight who left the order? It doesn't even have to be that his master was suspected of dark side taint and he was too, he could just be dissatisfied with the way the Jedi Order operated. He could even keep helping people outside the order. Maybe he was just dissatisfied with the bureaucracy. His motive for coming back could be the fact that since there's an entirely new order reforged from the ashes, it could have a fresh start and he could help them to be the caring people he wishes the Jedi Order could be.

Too biased towards the light side you say? Of course, since that's a light-sided motivational stimulus. Perhaps he left the Jedi Order because he thought they were weak and that compassion was for fools instead of leaving since they were too lofty to help people. He could see this rising order and he could yearn for revenge for the percieved wrongs they exacted upon him. He could infiltrate them, hide his emotions, get his training back and unload the bbqpwn on them all. Then he could do...whatever. It's up to the devs, so I'm crossing my fingers.


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Old 03-03-2007, 07:00 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
You know what I am fearing? K3 is going to go and disappoint everyone. Me, and you. I am going to be pemmestic and state that K3 will be a comrpomise between K1 and K2, but because of that, it will make a very, VERY bad blend. K3 will not have the black and white storyline of K1, nor the relativistic story of K2, and it will be considered quite terrible like ROTJ. It will try to please everyone, and end up pleasing no one. It may...stink.
Your glass isn't half full it's empty. ouch.
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Old 03-03-2007, 09:11 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Were Revan, exile, Bastila and Zayne biased towards the LS? I don't think so - Revan and Bastila did fall to the dark side, and it was your choice whether they should embrace it or return to LS. Zayne was accused of being DS and chose to defy either possibility. Exile has the choice as well. Clearly being raised by the jedi order does not force any choice on you. I mean, look at Zayne and Bastila, whose background we do know something about. They were both given to the jedi order when they were very young. Is that forced? They didn't have a choice, but then they were also too young to make one. What if my character is a newborn on Coruscant with strong force sensitivity and poor parents - is it forced that they decide the character should be raised in the jedi order? No, because it's just training - clearly it in no way dictates your alignment choice. Besides, most Sith Lords we know seem to have come from the jedi order (Exar Kun, Ulic Qel-Droma, Revan, Malak, Bastila, Traya, Dooku, Anakin Skywalker, etc.).
Well, I can’t argue now that being someone who was a Jedi means that you’re being biased towards the LS, nor can I argue that being someone who is born into the Jedi Order is being biased towards the LS. You’re right.

Forgive me for misconstruing your idea. I thought your idea was that you start off as someone who is a padawan on Coruscant that wasn’t born into the Jedi Order. Don’t ask me why I thought that. It’s been a while since I read your KotOR III story.

And technically, even if you started off as someone who prior to the events of the game wasn’t a Jedi, but at the beginning of the game is on Coruscant training to become one, as long as why you’re there isn’t forced on you by the devs, that isn’t forced either. The moral of the story here is that my “biased towards the LS” argument has come crashing down like the tower of Barradur.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Well, it IS called Knights of the Old Republic. There are no knights among the Sith or the Mandalorians...
Yeah yeah, I’ve heard that cliché before. Starting off as a Sith or someone who was one is a big no no for me (because if you choose the LS, you are going into that repetitive Star Wars theme of redemption). That being said, being a Mandalorian force user isn’t such a good idea after all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
I fail to see the difference between playing a Mandalorian, who is born with a disposition towards DS, over a jedi whom - according to you - is born with a disposition towards the LS. It is at least as forced if not more so IMHO.
Actually, so do I now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
So would anyone raised by the jedi order be given Sion's and Nihilus' shadow war.
Yes I know. I never claimed otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Only if it is, again, forced on the player. Maybe I don't want to follow Mandalore, as he tries to suck up to Revan and exile. Maybe I think he's just a pathetic fanboy who disgraces the Mandalorians by turning us over to our enemies, just like Esok did. If that's what I want to do and I can't, then it's also forced.
Well, strong linearity also applies to KotOR, TSL and your story as well. I guess this is just a moot point. KotOR III is going to be linear too, but I am expecting it to be not as linear as its predecessors, since I assume it will come out on the Xbox 360 (more space) and the PC (obviously there’s no problems there).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
That argument is just as valid for a jedi not being LS, I think. Nobody says that starting as a jedi you MUST be nice, goody-goody little Disciple-lookalike - you can be just as much of a jerk as you want to even so. Indeed, the chances for that are now greater than ever in the plot, given what shambles the jedi order is really in.
Yes I know. As I’ve said, my “too biased towards the LS” argument is dead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
The Mandalorians were cannon fodder for the jedi. Their strength lay in their determination, and they prayed upon the Republic's uncertainty and indecision. Once Revan and Malak led the Republic forces and were willing to make sacrifices, the Mandalorians began losing. Revan killed Mandalore. The Mandalorians were only better than the republic soldiers because they were so ruthless. Besides, if you're a Mandalorian (and I have suggested that myself in the past), then following your background while having force powers is clearly biased towards DS. I thought you didn't like the character being "forced." Indeed, how Revan, Malak and all the other jedi fell to the dark side because they were taught war by fighting the Mandalorians seems to confirm that. If I were a force sensitive Mandalorian, I'd much rather my character was raised by the jedi order, because then I'd have a background that tends towards DS and one towards LS. Which will I chooce? And, of course, I'll be an outcast because neither side will like me much.
Yeah, you’re right. That being said, I think playing as a Mandalorian who was raised by the Jedi Order is a great idea, for obvious reasons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Your LS option is forced because I must be a spy, and so we're back to square one. In fact, we're not even on square one, because we have no reason why this character has a strong force connection that allows him to rise to high levels quickly in the plot. He was never a force-user before, if I understand you correctly, and so he has no advantage over any other force sensitive character we could imagine. And if he did have a history as an experienced force-user and fought in the Mandalorian Wars, then he would already be a dark jedi or a Sith...
Well, he/she doesn’t necessarily have to have a strong connection to the force. Canderous (who isn’t even a force user) was more than a match for a Dark Jedi and a Sith (as evidenced by KotOR).

Mandalorians are quite capable of killing a Jedi one-on-one. That’s the impression I got based on what I learned in KotOR and TSL. Think about it, if you’re a Mandalorian (who without being a force user, is almost as good as Canderous and pre-KotOR Mandalore) who can use the force, that explains why you can take on and defeat the big guns of KotOR III. Meh, this is also a moot point, since you’ve convinced me that the idea isn’t as good as what I initially thought it was.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
An "indecisive" Mandalorian is someone who was already killed by more decisive Mandalorians. Besides, if you were a veteran from the war and embrace the LS, then you must confront what you have done in the past. Which means we're back to redemption again.
I can’t argue against that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Clearly I just did, and it didn't even take 10 minutes. Also, your argument does not address the deeper issue, which is why the central character of KotOR3 would have the ability to rise quickly in levels and become a powerful jedi or sith in almost no time. In the previous games that problem has been solved by giving you a troubled jedi background that you somehow cast aside and must now embrace again. I gave the character a background and platform to rise to greatness from. This idea gives us none, and so you might just as well play any lowly scoundrel from the streets of Corellia or wherever, since it just doesn't serve any purpose to the issue at hand.

And for the record, trying to "fish" for an answer or "bait" someone into responding is frankly trolling - whether I choose to respond or not is my choice, and you cannot infer anything from my silence, if I choose to say nothing. Now, I'm not angry with you, because I feel I know you and therefore conclude that was not your intent, but someone else might have been pretty upset with your tactic here, if he thought it was intentional. You really shouldn't do this in the future.
Just for the record, I was talking about this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
Jediphile, there are four problems with your idea. You said that the PC of KotOR III has a clear advantage over the Exile's companions, as he/she has gone through years of training to be a Jedi that the Exile's companions have not, except possibly the Disciple who never reached the position of padawan.

a) That idea seems too biased towards the LS.

b) How do you explain why your character is at level one (he/she must be) at the start of the game? LS/DS Exile’s companions are not level one characters, so if your character is more powerful than them, then why would they (and they would be, since you have to start at level one) be at a higher level than the K3 PC for?

c) Why isn’t LS/DS Bastila (your master in your story) the PC of KotOR III? Shouldn’t the PC be the most powerful character in the party?

d) In your story, the new Jedi Order is led by LS Exile's companions or a set of replacable characters (DS Exile), yet the PC isn't? Why? If the PC 'has the advantage' over the Exile's companions or other less trained Jedi, then wouldn't he/she be better suited in a Council member/leader role of this new Jedi Order? Why would you train under them?
Of course, 'a' is now a moot point.

Anyway, point taken. It wasn’t my intent to bait you into answering (note that I did say whether you answer or not is entirely up to you). It was foolish of me to even think that I could infer anything from your silence. That was an immature and ignorant thing for me to say. I apologize. I don’t want to cause dilemma with any forum member, especially not you.


What the hell? Why did I even argue about any of this in the first place? A fixed back story and a linear plot in KotOR III doesn’t even bother me. Did I have temporary amnesia or something?

The point of my topic was to point out that there should be a reason why the PC of KotOR III has the ability to rise quickly in levels and become a powerful Jedi or Sith in almost no time, just like there was a reason in KotOR and TSL. Why? To suspend disbelief.

Last edited by The Architect; 03-03-2007 at 10:01 PM.
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Old 03-03-2007, 09:18 PM   #79
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Aye, I agree.

The problem is that the devs of KotOR 2 left their successors so little wiggle room, what scares me is how forced it is going to be. The ONLY way I can see them making it reasonable for your PC to be able to take the true sith is prior Jedi training. I just can't see any other lore reason why it is possible. That's why I stuck by my idea so much. The Mandalorian way is logical too but I just don't see how they could implement. The foreshadowing in K2 with all the references to the Jedi who "switched off their lightsabers" seems to me to be the best bet, since they're force users who could come back.

I'm with a lot of you guys though, I have a bad feeling about this.


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Old 03-03-2007, 09:52 PM   #80
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Quote:
I have already stated that I do not agree with you on that point. You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but just because I have the gall to disagree with you, it does not automatically follow that I'm wrong. I'm entitled to my opinion as well.
...I know that. But, remember that there is more people than just you and I. I repeated my same point again to inform other bystanders what I believe, not trying to persuade you, but to persuade everyone else. It's a debate tactic that I learnt in school.

Quote:
The point of my topic was to point out that there should be a reason why the PC of KotOR III has the ability to rise quickly in levels and become a powerful Jedi or Sith in almost no time, just like there was a reason in KotOR and TSL. Why? To suspend disbelief.
I agree totally, however, it is with this that is the main impetus for the discussion I had with Jediphile, and Jediphile disgarees with this, saying it's cliched. It is one where I feel no compromise can be met.

The Mandalorian Force User does make some sort of sense, though Jediphile did destroy it.

For the most part, a new Jedi Order is pretty good, with the Jedi Padawan, but we need a reason. Unfortuantly, it is this where we get the sticking point.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Onion
"The Cambodian government has established many exciting-sounding 're-education camps' where both intellectuals and everyday citizens can be sent at any time," Day said. Well, we at Barnes & Noble have always supported re-education in America, and we intend to extend this policy to our new customers." For every hardcover book sold, Barnes & Noble will donate a dollar to the Cambodian government to help re-educate local children.
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