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Old 03-03-2007, 10:20 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by SilentScope001
I agree totally, however, it is with this that is the main impetus for the discussion I had with Jediphile, and Jediphile disgarees with this, saying it's cliched. It is one where I feel no compromise can be met.

The Mandalorian Force User does make some sort of sense, though Jediphile did destroy it.
Yeah, Jediphile indeed destroyed that idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
For the most part, a new Jedi Order is pretty good, with the Jedi Padawan, but we need a reason. Unfortuantly, it is this where we get the sticking point.
Well, I'm on your side on this one. IMO, being a padawan (on the verge of becoming a Jedi Knight or not) in KotOR III is just not enough to explain why you can defeat the True Sith in KotOR III. While one could argue that you can destroy them because they’re just weak, I seriously hope they’re not sissies. I got the impression in TSL that the True Sith are dangerous fockers anyway.

I believe that the PC of KotOR III should be the third most powerful character in the series. Revan was the only one who could stop Malak in KotOR. The Exile was the only one who could stop the Sith trio in TSL, and now…the PC of KotOR III should be the only one who can stop the main threat of KotOR III…the True Sith. Why? Because you should be made to feel important. Simple.

If a padawan (on the verge of becoming a Jedi Knight or not) can stop the True Sith, then WHY NOT SOMEONE ELSE?!? You need to stand out. It’s not as if there are no Jedi left either.

You’ve got Bastila (it’s not like DS Bastila doesn’t want to stop the True Sith either). You’ve got Nomi and Vima Sunrider, and you’ve got other Jedi who “switched off their lightsabers” who could have just as much experience as the PC. According to Zez-Kai Ell, just about 100 Jedi Knights remain (we cannot be certain if he was referring to all Jedi in general or actual Knight ranked Jedi).

There has to be more to it. I agree with SilentScope001 and believe that if there isn’t more to it, then it cheapens the True Sith, or whoever the big gun villains of KotOR III are.
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Old 03-04-2007, 12:30 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by SilentScope001
I agree totally, however, it is with this that is the main impetus for the discussion I had with Jediphile, and Jediphile disgarees with this, saying it's cliched. It is one where I feel no compromise can be met.
Not exactly. I do agree that it is appropriate to establish a background that allows us to explain why the pc can rise quickly in levels. I have not said otherwise. Where I disagree with you lies entirely in the question of whether this character must have a unique power to explain why he alone in the entire universe can defeat the true Sith, while no one else can. You have said in the past that the story is absurd if the character does not possess such an ability. That I have disagreed with on the basis that his opportunity to strike against the true Sith by being at the right place at the right time should be enough. I would certainly have this character be a potent jedi, just not one with unique abilities like Revan ("heart of the force") or exile ("wound in the force").

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
The Mandalorian Force User does make some sort of sense, though Jediphile did destroy it.
Well, I'm not entirely against the idea, I just don't see that it really does that much for us.

For example, I have suggested myself in the past the pc could be an orphaned Mandalorian child taken in and trained by the jedi order. The problem I always had with it was that it forced the character to be human again, and in that case I would just as well play as the son or daughter of Saul Karath, who was raised by the jedi order.

I mean, you're Saul Karath's son, but you were trained by the jedi, so the Sith hate you because you're a jedi, and the Republic and the jedi hate you because of heritage. So you're scorned by both sides, and when the jedi are wiped out in the shadow war, any jedi who would train you is killed. So, will you stay true to your jedi ideals in spite of having been abandoned or will you become your father's son? I liked that idea because there was controversy in it. Certainly a mandalorian background is just as troubling, but for a child of Saul Karath, you would find little love from Revan, Bastila, or Carth either, whereas they have grudgingly accepted one Mandalorian (Canderous) already.

That said, I would welcome the option to play non-human, and it just didn't seem to be possible with either option. Fish.Stapler seems to think Mandalorians can be any race, since the original species has died out. I'm less certain of that, since all the Mandalorians we've seen in the KotOR games seem to me to have been human. Well, I suppose we could argue they're any race under that helmet, but at least I've never been given reason to think so, seeing as how all Mandalorians we've seen with the helmet off have been humans. But if Fish.Stapler is right, then the option has potential, I think, because you could have the option of race as well as having a background that makes you hated or at least distrusted by all sides. You would also be pulled to DS by your Mandalorian background as you're pulled to LS by your jedi upbringing. In that case, the option could have a lot of interesting role-playing potential. I mean, are you really a Mandalorian or a Jedi in the end? Turn the page...


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Old 03-04-2007, 12:41 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by SilentScope001
The "Lost Jedi"? Hm? They too are Force Senstive indivudals, just like The Exile. Not to mention Atris, another Force-Senstive who could have been a brand-new founder of the Jedi Order...if she didn't do the evil stuff she did.

The point was that The Exile was a Wound in the Force, which is why he was being taught/brainwashed by Kreia, why the Lost Jedi came to The Exile to became actual Jedi/Sith, why The Exile was able to grow so powerful, so quickly. This was the only reason why he could destroy The Exile, and a pretty good reason why he could kill off Kreia (as an ending to her training).



There are other Jedi Masters that surivied the ordeal, less than 100.

Even so, it leads up to a question: Why not Bastila? Why not the Exile's companions?



You may actually get a good point, but I do not think that is enough. Jedi are rare, even rarer than they were before, but they are OTHER Force-Senstives that can take your position. How about the Jedi Padawan's Bunkmate? Why didn't this Bunkmate destroy the True Sith? Or the Jedi Masters? Surely, they are powerful beings.

Remember, the True Sith are supposed to be dangerous...to be wiped out by a random Jedi means that it can also be wiped out by another random Jedi. And this weakens the True Sith, and this weakens K3 overall. The PC's Force Connection is actually a huge party of the story, and a very good reason why I like The Exile, for his connection made sense, and played a huge role in the plot.

I don't want to make an argument again, so, let just leave it at that, okay?
If the True Sith are so powerful then why haven't they conquered the Republic yet.

I mean they had 20+ years to do so and yet they haven't.

Plus there's the fact that the Republic is extremely weak following the Jedi Civil War and yet they still haven't attacked yet.
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Old 03-04-2007, 01:45 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Jediphile
The problem I always had with it was that it forced the character to be human again
Have you considered that being Mandalorian doesn't have to mean that you are human. I remembered Xor from Kotor I, he fought alongside the Mandalorians because he hated the Cathar race. He was, at least in the PC version a Twilek.

They are always behind masks. True, they speak basic but then Sasha spoke according to Revan a bit of Mandalorian. Maybe there are other races among them.
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Old 03-04-2007, 02:07 AM   #85
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If the True Sith are so powerful then why haven't they conquered the Republic yet.

I mean they had 20+ years to do so and yet they haven't.

Plus there's the fact that the Republic is extremely weak following the Jedi Civil War and yet they still haven't attacked yet.
Because the True Sith are manlipuiatve bastards who don't want to rush in and get blown into smittherens. They want to bide their time, and wait until they get an advantage and rush in.

Why else did they start the Mandalorian Wars?

And what make you think they haven't attacked already? Who knows if they're pulling off a Palpatine right now and getting themselves elected?

Remember, as Kavar said: "it isn't about the Republic anymore". It's about the Jedi. Kill them all, and the Jedi Order is gone, and the Galaxy is for the True Sith's taking.


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Old 03-04-2007, 02:21 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by khawk
Have you considered that being Mandalorian doesn't have to mean that you are human. I remembered Xor from Kotor I, he fought alongside the Mandalorians because he hated the Cathar race. He was, at least in the PC version a Twilek.

They are always behind masks. True, they speak basic but then Sasha spoke according to Revan a bit of Mandalorian. Maybe there are other races among them.
Could be. As I said before, I'm not sure. I just don't get that impression since all the confirmed Mandalorians we've seen in the games were humans. Xor was a twi'lek, but was he a Mandalorian or did he merely fight with them? I don't think we have an answer for that...

But yes, given that the Mandalorian race seems to have died out, it makes as much sense that twi'lek, rodians or whatever are Mandalorians as humans. I just haven't seen any conclusive evidence of that being the case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Because the True Sith are manlipuiatve bastards who don't want to rush in and get blown into smittherens. They want to bide their time, and wait until they get an advantage and rush in.

Why else did they start the Mandalorian Wars?

And what make you think they haven't attacked already? Who knows if they're pulling off a Palpatine right now and getting themselves elected?

Remember, as Kavar said: "it isn't about the Republic anymore". It's about the Jedi. Kill them all, and the Jedi Order is gone, and the Galaxy is for the True Sith's taking.
I think the point was that if the true Sith are so all-powerful, then why do they need to resort to trickery and manipulation to destroy the Republic? TSL seems to confirm that they staged the Mandalorian Wars to weaken the Republic. The plan worked better than they could have hoped, because not only did the Mandalorians bring the Republic to its knees, no, it also made Revan fall and then turn on the Republic. And Revan shattered it.

And then, when it needed his strength the most, he left. And Sion and Nihilus then exterminated what remained of the jedi. By the end of TSL, there is little left - the Republic is on the verge of collapse, according to GOTO, who would know. And the jedi order is shattered and broken. And the Sith are utterly destroyed.

And yet, the true Sith have just waited through all of this. Why? Why didn't they simply attack? If they did not intend to strike against the Republic, then why did they stage the Mandalorian Wars?

I could believe that there are some truly powerful force-users among the true Sith, but I don't think they have a huge fleet, which is why they resorted to this strategy. Consequently, I see them as very manipulative, but not all-powerful.


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Last edited by Jediphile; 03-04-2007 at 05:17 AM.
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Old 03-04-2007, 03:47 AM   #87
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From Wookiepedia linky

"The Mandalorians (called Mando'ade in Mando'a, meaning "Sons and Daughters of Mandalore") were a warlike, nomadic nation of clan-based people consisting of members from multiple species."

"Many species comprised the Mandalorians, such as this Rodian."

They're a people united by battle, fiercer than the average members of their species. Could be interesting candidates for Jedi since all species can be Jedi and Mandalorians are comprised of all species...


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Old 03-04-2007, 05:14 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Fish.Stapler
From Wookiepedia linky

"The Mandalorians (called Mando'ade in Mando'a, meaning "Sons and Daughters of Mandalore") were a warlike, nomadic nation of clan-based people consisting of members from multiple species."

"Many species comprised the Mandalorians, such as this Rodian."

They're a people united by battle, fiercer than the average members of their species. Could be interesting candidates for Jedi since all species can be Jedi and Mandalorians are comprised of all species...
Yeah, but even if we trust Wookieepedia, the wiki itself casts doubt on that article, which only makes it more speculative and questionable.

And this information does not seem to appear in the more official databanks.

EDIT:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish.Stapler
The foreshadowing in K2 with all the references to the Jedi who "switched off their lightsabers" seems to me to be the best bet, since they're force users who could come back.

I'm with a lot of you guys though, I have a bad feeling about this.
Actually, I'm still on the fence there. Playing TSL and noting what Revan ended up doing, where Exile ended, and most especially what the Exile did NOT deal with in the plot, I feel left several things in the open for later closure in K3. That's all assumption, of course, but I think it could lead to some revelations in the plot that could be truly nasty twists, which is always good

Still, that they haven't even begun is not very encouraging... It's been well over two years, and they haven't even announced the bloody thing


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Last edited by Jediphile; 03-04-2007 at 08:51 AM.
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Old 03-04-2007, 01:31 PM   #89
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[qupte]I think the point was that if the true Sith are so all-powerful, then why do they need to resort to trickery and manipulation to destroy the Republic? TSL seems to confirm that they staged the Mandalorian Wars to weaken the Republic. The plan worked better than they could have hoped, because not only did the Mandalorians bring the Republic to its knees, no, it also made Revan fall and then turn on the Republic. And Revan shattered it.

And then, when it needed his strength the most, he left. And Sion and Nihilus then exterminated what remained of the jedi. By the end of TSL, there is little left - the Republic is on the verge of collapse, according to GOTO, who would know. And the jedi order is shattered and broken. And the Sith are utterly destroyed.

And yet, the true Sith have just waited through all of this. Why? Why didn't they simply attack? If they did not intend to strike against the Republic, then why did they stage the Mandalorian Wars?

I could believe that there are some truly powerful force-users among the true Sith, but I don't think they have a huge fleet, which is why they resorted to this strategy. Consequently, I see them as very manipulative, but not all-powerful.[/quote]

Well, if you listen to Kreia, you learn that she doesn't care much of the Republic, or of weaponary. Ships are nothing. Huge fleets are nothing. Superweapons are nothing. It's only...The Force. "The Republic is merely a shell that protects the Jedi, just like the Jedi is a shell that protects the heart."

After all, the Jedi are the most powerful people in Star Wars. It was a Jedi, after all, that destroyed the Death Star, no? It is the Jedi that can wipe out huge hordes, and destroy the greatest of ships. So, why send off ships when you should battle the real threat: The Jedi?

So, this would explain why the True Sith didn't send in any ships.

And, as I said before, you do not know that they have not invaded. I personally believe they already have, and may have done so by using Kreia herself as a pawn for the True Sith.

According to the Interview that the Designers, it seems as though that the developers want to give a different...mood, similar to ESB. That what you are dealing with is not a crisis, per se, but something far worse. You are dealing with the "symptoms" of something far greater. Not only is the True Sith responsible for the Mandalorian Wars and of Revan's fall...they may be responsible for Sith Trimutiave, and especially Nihlius, using him as a way to destroy the Republic further.

Maybe we do actually agree on something here...they may not have a strong empire, with large ships and amarada. They may "just" be uber-powerful Force Users.

And to Kreia, it is the Force Users that really mattered.

(Also, I like the idea of Kreia wanting to destroy the Force to stop the True Sith invasion. )


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Old 03-04-2007, 02:57 PM   #90
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I was thinking about a new PC for KOTOR III, and I thought that it shouldn't repeat the formula of a former Jedi who lost his/her connection to the Force and regains it, only the second time, much stronger than before. It has been repeated with Revan, the Exile and Kyle Katarn and while it is interesting the first time, it is worse the second or third time around.

A Mandalorian Jedi would be interesting, but I don't think it would work for KOTOR III.

What I would like is someone who knew that they had a strong connection to the Force and sometimes used it to get themselves out of trouble, but never used it to a full extent. This way, the PC would be strong for a good reason, instead of repeating the formula of a former Jedi, mentioned above.

You may disagree with me and that's fine. There is an interesting discussion going on here.
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Old 03-04-2007, 03:08 PM   #91
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I honestly think it should be someone who never considered the force or the Jedi in his life. So im thinking some sort of shop keeper on a remote planet who gets sucked into the journey of his life. From that they have endless possibilities.
This seems logical. It sounds a bit cool too. But I wouldn't know how the story would come along, and I like how mystery is revealed about pasts and present things. I wouldn't know.
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Old 03-04-2007, 03:20 PM   #92
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A Mandalorian Jedi would be interesting, but I don't think it would work for KOTOR III.

What I would like is someone who knew that they had a strong connection to the Force and sometimes used it to get themselves out of trouble, but never used it to a full extent. This way, the PC would be strong for a good reason, instead of repeating the formula of a former Jedi, mentioned above.
The main concern with that idea is how we explain that this person can rise to high experience levels in a very short time. As you say, this was explained in the previous games by playing a character who had the training but lost the ability and had to regain it, and so could rise quickly because it's easier to retrace your steps than it is to start from scratch. And while I agree that we cannot pull that one again, we do need grant a reason for this person becoming a powerful jedi or sith in a short time.

Btw, why wouldn't your idea work for a Mandalorian jedi?


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Old 03-04-2007, 09:34 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Jediphile
Not exactly. I do agree that it is appropriate to establish a background that allows us to explain why the pc can rise quickly in levels. I have not said otherwise. Where I disagree with you lies entirely in the question of whether this character must have a unique power to explain why he alone in the entire universe can defeat the true Sith, while no one else can. You have said in the past that the story is absurd if the character does not possess such an ability. That I have disagreed with on the basis that his opportunity to strike against the true Sith by being at the right place at the right time should be enough. I would certainly have this character be a potent jedi, just not one with unique abilities like Revan ("heart of the force") or exile ("wound in the force").
Uh, just for the record, Revan isn’t literally the heart of the force. Right place at the right time or not Jediphile, it’s hard to believe that a padawan would be capable of defeating these True Sith. You don’t think they’re that weak, do you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
I think the point was that if the true Sith are so all-powerful, then why do they need to resort to trickery and manipulation to destroy the Republic?

TSL seems to confirm that they staged the Mandalorian Wars to weaken the Republic. The plan worked better than they could have hoped, because not only did the Mandalorians bring the Republic to its knees, no, it also made Revan fall and then turn on the Republic. And Revan shattered it.

And then, when it needed his strength the most, he left. And Sion and Nihilus then exterminated what remained of the jedi. By the end of TSL, there is little left - the Republic is on the verge of collapse, according to GOTO, who would know. And the jedi order is shattered and broken. And the Sith are utterly destroyed.

And yet, the true Sith have just waited through all of this. Why? Why didn't they simply attack? If they did not intend to strike against the Republic, then why did they stage the Mandalorian Wars?
Well why not? If you had the choice to fight in a war against a strong Republic and a strong Jedi Order and potentially lose, or successfully stage a war that would weaken your enemies without losing any of your people, what would you choose? It’s not exactly rocket science, is it? I know what I’d choose.

If they did indeed stage the Mandalorian Wars, then they are clever IMO. If they didn’t, remember, they are Sith, and we know that the Sith fight amongst each other for power, so perhaps they had a big civil war against each other that screwed up their initial plans. Who knows?

So, why didn’t they attack after the Mandalorian Wars? Because of the Jedi Civil War, that’s why. Their enemies were destroying each other. Why not just sit back and wait? Would you intervene in a fight between two of your worst enemies? Now, why didn’t they attack after the Jedi Civil War?

HELLO! Remember your plausible, sense making “civil war” idea?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
I could believe that there are some truly powerful force-users among the true Sith, but I don't think they have a huge fleet, which is why they resorted to this strategy. Consequently, I see them as very manipulative, but not all-powerful.
I agree with you that they don’t have a huge fleet. Still, I believe they are a threat, and aren’t weaklings. Maybe they do only have a few powerful force-users among them, we don’t know at this stage. I still don't like the idea of a padawan being able to beat them though, all-powerful True Sith or not.
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Old 03-04-2007, 10:30 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by The Architect
Uh, just for the record, Revan isn’t literally the heart of the force. Right place at the right time or not Jediphile, it’s hard to believe that a padawan would be capable of defeating these True Sith. You don’t think they’re that weak, do you?
I don't think Jediphile was trying to imply that. "Heart of the Force" seems to be more of a term that Kreia once used to describe Revan rather than something official.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
If they did indeed stage the Mandalorian Wars, then they are clever IMO. {snip} Now, why didn’t they attack after the Jedi Civil War?
One idea is that the True Sith were totally uninvolved in the Mandalorian Wars - after all, the only source for that is content cut from the game, and it would contradict Canderous' statements about the Sith and the Mandalorians in KotOR I.

He does say that the Sith sought them out to fight the Republic, and remarks on their situation when he says "we thought it would be centuries before they came back." This perfectly fits the remnants of Exar Kun's Sith - after the war, what was left of them fled to the Outer Rim in a very weak state. They'd be far more capable of knowing the Mandalorians existed than the True Sith, and would have a much higher chance of persuading them to attack the Republic. The Mandalorians might even have decided to attack the True Sith in time, if they knew they existed.

But from another perspective, having big and all-powerful enemies wait in the background seems to be a normal thing in SW. The Yuuzhan Vong had spies in the Empire shortly after the reborn Palpatine died, but waited until it fell apart before attacking even though they probably could've won then. (Though arguably, the Vong are non-canon due to how they're so plain awful)

The True Sith might've been waiting because they didn't want to go up against Sion and Nihilus, who were invincible to all but the Exile. If they were capable of knowing about and convincing the Mandalorians to attack the Republic, knowing about those two (or at least the fact that the Jedi and the populace of whole planets was missing) would seem a small matter.

Mmm, I think we'll have to wait until K3. There's just too much stuff left unclear about the True Sith for me to really say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
I agree with you that they don’t have a huge fleet. Still, I believe they are a threat, and aren’t weaklings. Maybe they do only have a few powerful force-users among them, we don’t know at this stage.
I'd suspect they have a tremendous fleet that'll wipe the floor with the Republic until the PC kills of their leader, which will somehow turn the war around. As per usual.


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Old 03-04-2007, 10:43 PM   #95
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Well, I'd like to think you ARE a nobody, whom is force sensitive. When you were a young person, (Teens?) you sort of break into the mysterious man who came to live in your frontier settlement about a year or so ago. You find his lightsaber. He discovers you, and also notices your force sensitivty. He teaches you a few tricks. Nothing dangerous, just how to lift medium to small objects or so. Later, <insert assassin plot here> You find the hermits house on fire, and you find a Holocron he had been saving. It teaches you basic jedi techniques, and from there on you get a grasp of the concept of the Force.(This probably happened during the events of TSL) Years later, your a drifter, whom happens to enjoy a brief conversation with a member of the newly reestabalished Jedi Order. He waves you off, just in time to see you muged. Having honed your slightly rusty skills in the force over the years, you manage to defeat the man. Visibly impressed with your skilll, the Jedi offers you sort of semi padawan status, mainly because it'd be better if another, less reputable force user group were to find you. Occasionally reading through his Holocrons, you tavel with him as a member of a retinue. Arriving on generic planet #24, you are both attacked by pirates, who manage to kill your jedi buddy. Having gotten rather strong in the force at this point, you kill the pirates, and return to the JT (Cliche bit starts.) Your recognized for some talent(this being about half way through a quarter of the story, think the taris of K3) and are granted ANOTHER reserved form of Jedi status, more as an Auxilliary for newly appointed Jedi Knights. you serve as the companion og one such lucky knight, him/her becoming your maybe first/second party member. <insert plot evolving mission here> and then the more freeform aspect of K3 begins...

Whew. That was irritating.

EDIT: Sorry for the wall-o-text, folks.
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Old 03-06-2007, 11:50 AM   #96
Jediphile
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Originally Posted by The Architect
Uh, just for the record, Revan isn’t literally the heart of the force. Right place at the right time or not Jediphile, it’s hard to believe that a padawan would be capable of defeating these True Sith. You don’t think they’re that weak, do you?
As Emperor Devon has already pointed out, my reference to Revan is just to be in line with Kreia's perception of him. It seems a simpler way to address him and establish Revan as a really powerful force-user. I don't see Revan as more powerful than that, though. He was, perhaps, the most powerful force-user of his time, but I think that's his limit. And he would pale next to most of the Skywalkers IMHO. When people suggest Revan was the greatest ever, it always sounds to me like some fanboy's wet-dream of self-indulgence because he was Revan in KotOR... and that's not pretty either, if you ask me.

As for the true Sith, they do not seem to be an empire, so I would not characterize them as powerful on that level. I think there are powerful individuals among them, but I don't think they have huge fleets to do their bidding - that's why they have to resort to manipulation and guile. And they've been good at it too.


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Originally Posted by The Architect
Well why not? If you had the choice to fight in a war against a strong Republic and a strong Jedi Order and potentially lose, or successfully stage a war that would weaken your enemies without losing any of your people, what would you choose? It’s not exactly rocket science, is it? I know what I’d choose.
Perhaps, but patience is not something I associate with the Sith. If they want the republic and the jedi to die that badly, then it seems difficult to believe they would be able to resist the urge to exploit the situation at the first opportunity... unless, of course, they had no other choice.

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Originally Posted by The Architect
If they did indeed stage the Mandalorian Wars, then they are clever IMO. If they didn’t, remember, they are Sith, and we know that the Sith fight amongst each other for power, so perhaps they had a big civil war against each other that screwed up their initial plans. Who knows?

So, why didn’t they attack after the Mandalorian Wars? Because of the Jedi Civil War, that’s why. Their enemies were destroying each other. Why not just sit back and wait? Would you intervene in a fight between two of your worst enemies? Now, why didn’t they attack after the Jedi Civil War?

HELLO! Remember your plausible, sense making “civil war” idea?
Naturally I haven't forgotten my own plot, but I fear I have not expressed my intention here very clearly. The description was directed mostly at SilentScope001, whose perception of the true Sith seems to differ a lot from my own, since I don't see them "pulling a Palpatine" - I doubt they'll try to subvert the Republic by infiltrating the democratic structure. I think that when they come, they will come in force and as conquerors.

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Originally Posted by The Architect
I agree with you that they don’t have a huge fleet. Still, I believe they are a threat, and aren’t weaklings. Maybe they do only have a few powerful force-users among them, we don’t know at this stage. I still don't like the idea of a padawan being able to beat them though, all-powerful True Sith or not.
By the end of KotOR3, the main character will obviously not be a padawan anymore. At least in the sense that it implies. Remember that even Revan was called a padawan towards the end of KotOR, because he was never given the rank of jedi knight. That didn't stop him from being powerful, though. Same with Jolee, btw.

And as you know, my plot is built strongly on the basis of getting Revan and Exile to fight the true Sith. That doesn't make the K3 pc weak, it just means he has to be more persuasive and less confrontational. We've already had one "most powerful jedi" and one "bane to jedi". It's boring to keep raising the bar by creating yet another uber-jedi, who's the most powerful yet.

It'd be like "Well, in K1 you're Revan, the most powerful jedi of his time! But oh wait, here's the exile, who's a wound in the force - he can resist powers that Revan is helpless against!! But oh gosh - here's the K3 pc - now he is REALLY powerful!!!!!!!!!!!" - It's boring, it's unimaginative, and it's old! Enough already!


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Old 03-06-2007, 01:20 PM   #97
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The PC should be uber-powerful because otherwise the True Sith will seem weak and it wouldn't make sense if Revan is there for years and still hasn't returned and yet an average Jedi can stop them. Besides most people like the idea of being a powerful Jedi\Sith, one that can influence major galactic events and dish out some serious lightsaber and Force punishment. Personally I think it's used to often but I like it, I don't want to be just an average Jedi\Sith.
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Old 03-06-2007, 03:21 PM   #98
Jediphile
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Originally Posted by legend222
The PC should be uber-powerful because otherwise the True Sith will seem weak and it wouldn't make sense if Revan is there for years and still hasn't returned and yet an average Jedi can stop them.
Even if the new pc is able to able to orchestrate (and not alone, I might add) the fall of the true Sith on the basis of the hard work Revan and Exile did before him?

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Originally Posted by legend222
Besides most people like the idea of being a powerful Jedi\Sith, one that can influence major galactic events and dish out some serious lightsaber and Force punishment.
I'm not most people then, and happily so. The third uber-jedi in a row does not say good things about the plot-writers nor about the players, if that is truly what they prefer, I fear.

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Originally Posted by legend222
Personally I think it's used to often but I like it, I don't want to be just an average Jedi\Sith.
To me no individual is ever "average". In that sense, I don't think that "average" exists, because everyone is unique. Revan may have been a great jedi, but IMHO he became a victim to his own power for that very reason. Exile is the opposite, being in complete denial of past experiences throughout TSL.


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Old 03-06-2007, 03:26 PM   #99
Titanius Anglesmith
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I would actually rather be a relatively "average" person, not some uber-powerful Force god like I was in the last two. By "average", I mean not someone who can find out he is Force sensitive, start training, and then in just a couple weeks he becomes incredibly powerful. Powerful enough to destroy the Sith. You don't necessarily have to "defeat" the True Sith, only cripple them enough to plunge them into civil war. The means by which you cripple them, I'm not sure, but does it always have to be a 1 on 1 battle between you and the big evil Sith Lord?

I would just like to see a different perspective on this in KotOR III. The True Sith should have a much more subtle defeat than an all out war ending in a final battle between you and their leader.

This may sound a bit confusing (heh, it's confusing even to me ), I'll just leave it up to the devs to figure out how to give it some coherence.


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Old 03-06-2007, 04:32 PM   #100
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To justify your quickly developing power, I'd like a Jedi/Sith tomb that embues you with power. The PC could uncover an ancient tomb that contains the remains of two tragic jedi lovers. The plot has you reading into their lives and how they died. The love tore them apart, the woman fell to the dark side and they killed eachother.
You finally get to interract with the ghosts of the pair in seperate places and get to put them to rest. Lightside option revolves around reuniting them, Darkside has you helping the female finally destroy the male. A non-specific option has you helping the male to put her to rest (i.e nobaly killing her). After this plot, your healing/disrupting/resolving leads to a big force power payoff (basicall jargin to help explain your rapid level gaining) The tomb is full of goodies and collapses afterwards.
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Old 03-06-2007, 04:46 PM   #101
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it would be nice to kinda of like have the force but never use it much like atton in tsl i was thinking it would be good to kinda start the game in attons shoes being saved by a jedi/sith and then just following them on there jurney for a bit then u come to corasant and get traind to be a jedi
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Old 03-06-2007, 07:22 PM   #102
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To justify your quickly developing power, I'd like a Jedi/Sith tomb that embues you with power. The PC could uncover an ancient tomb that contains the remains of two tragic jedi lovers. The plot has you reading into their lives and how they died. The love tore them apart, the woman fell to the dark side and they killed eachother.
You finally get to interract with the ghosts of the pair in seperate places and get to put them to rest. Lightside option revolves around reuniting them, Darkside has you helping the female finally destroy the male. A non-specific option has you helping the male to put her to rest (i.e nobaly killing her). After this plot, your healing/disrupting/resolving leads to a big force power payoff (basicall jargin to help explain your rapid level gaining) The tomb is full of goodies and collapses afterwards.
Sounds like some random side-quest thrown in, as well as throwing in a McGuffin (I hate McGuffins)...but the outline seems okay. As long as you can tie that Sith Tomb into the main story (you know, the True Sith threat), it could explain how the Main Character of K3 is able to gain power. It might be a comrpomise between my view and Jediphile's view, but not much.

Quote:
I would just like to see a different perspective on this in KotOR III. The True Sith should have a much more subtle defeat than an all out war ending in a final battle between you and their leader.
I actually like this idea. But I do hope the developers find a way to do such a thing...

Quote:
And as you know, my plot is built strongly on the basis of getting Revan and Exile to fight the true Sith. That doesn't make the K3 pc weak, it just means he has to be more persuasive and less confrontational. We've already had one "most powerful jedi" and one "bane to jedi". It's boring to keep raising the bar by creating yet another uber-jedi, who's the most powerful yet.
1) Boosting Revan's and Exile's egos will only fuel the fanboys. I don't want them to steal the show, so to say, in K3.
2) ...Depends on if the Force Connection bond itself really is boring. To me, the REASON why you gain power is part of the story, and since I play the game for the story, it sounds pretty good, if they can give the player a Force Connection.

It also suspends disbelief.

Quote:
As for the true Sith, they do not seem to be an empire, so I would not characterize them as powerful on that level.
Kreia would disagree.

"The Sith is a belief. And its empire, the True Sith Empire, lies elsewhere."

Not that I want the True Sith to be an Empire. I actually want them to be holocrons. But Kreia did say that it is an Empire, so it does 'seem' to be an Empire.

Quote:
Perhaps, but patience is not something I associate with the Sith. If they want the republic and the jedi to die that badly, then it seems difficult to believe they would be able to resist the urge to exploit the situation at the first opportunity... unless, of course, they had no other choice.
They may have had no other choice, or they may have already exploited the situation...or maybe they ARE patient. We don't know much about them. All we know is that they exist (and even that fact is in doubt).

Quote:
Naturally I haven't forgotten my own plot, but I fear I have not expressed my intention here very clearly. The description was directed mostly at SilentScope001, whose perception of the true Sith seems to differ a lot from my own, since I don't see them "pulling a Palpatine" - I doubt they'll try to subvert the Republic by infiltrating the democratic structure. I think that when they come, they will come in force and as conquerors.
My preception is that they could be Palpatine knock-offs. They could be, we don't know anything about them. And if K3 never comes out, we may never know.

Quote:
It'd be like "Well, in K1 you're Revan, the most powerful jedi of his time! But oh wait, here's the exile, who's a wound in the force - he can resist powers that Revan is helpless against!! But oh gosh - here's the K3 pc - now he is REALLY powerful!!!!!!!!!!!" - It's boring, it's unimaginative, and it's old! Enough already!
Not really. Let look at this statment:
"But oh wait, here's the exile, who's a wound in the force - he can resist powers that Revan is helpless against!!"

This means that The Exile can defeat Darth Nihlius and the rest of the Sith Trimutiave, BUT wheter he is less/more powerful than Revan is debatable. It does not matter though.

All that matters is that is there a very good reason why the Jedi Padawn defeat the True Sith? If yes, then that's okay. The Jedi Padawan does not need to be an uber-powerful Jedi, it just needs to have enough power and with a good backstory to explain that power, to defeat the True Sith. Exile and Revan may be able to wipe the floor when battling that Jedi Padawan, but the Jedi Padawan is still the only one who can stop the True Sith.

And is it unimangitive? The Exile's loss of the Force was not unimangitive, it was really an intesting story. And I can trust the developers to come up with a very interesting story on why the Jedi Padawan can defeat the True Sith.

Oh and a Note:

Quote:
And as you know, my plot is built strongly on the basis of getting Revan and Exile to fight the true Sith. That doesn't make the K3 pc weak, it just means he has to be more persuasive and less confrontational.
If the Jedi Padawan goes to the DS (trust me, I love the Dark Side), your story has me going alone, slaughtering Darth Nihlius reborn (and how is that possible?), Revan ("heart of the Force"), and the Leader of the True Sith (who wasn't even given a personality, he was just a redshirt). Doesn't sound me being persuasive, more like me being an barbariac ogre running around killing everything. You even admit that my mindless slaughter will not even give me the title of Leader of the True Sith, I'm just doing it because I got bloodlust, and I love the Dark Side.

You had me kill not one, but THREE powerful force users (especially Darth Nihlius Reborn. You expect my Padawan to kill off a Planet-Destroyer? And if he gets destroyed easily, you'll just make the fanboys state: "If this Padawan can kill off Darth Nihilus Reborn...then Revan can kill off the Real Darth Nihilius easily!")...and you did not even give me a reason for why I would do such a thing, never mind HOW I would do such a thing, considering the fact that I am a Padawan.

And that's just for DS. For LS, at the end of the game, you play as Revan as HE battle the True Sith Leader. Not you. HIM. He gets all the glory, and you get...nothing. No fame, no honor, nothing at all. Why not just had a NPC basically tell you that Revan destroyed the True Sith and end it at that? Why even bother playing the game and creating your character when Revan just comes in and overshadows you?


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Old 03-06-2007, 07:56 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Jediphile
As Emperor Devon has already pointed out, my reference to Revan is just to be in line with Kreia's perception of him. It seems a simpler way to address him and establish Revan as a really powerful force-user. I don't see Revan as more powerful than that, though. He was, perhaps, the most powerful force-user of his time, but I think that's his limit. And he would pale next to most of the Skywalkers IMHO. When people suggest Revan was the greatest ever, it always sounds to me like some fanboy's wet-dream of self-indulgence because he was Revan in KotOR... and that's not pretty either, if you ask me.
Yeah, and? I don’t think you think that Revan is literally the heart of the force. Note how I said just for the record? I just thought I’d point that out, in case you, or anyone else, do think that Revan is the heart of the force, when that is not the case.

And as you probably know, I agree with you about Revan not being the most powerful force user of all time. In fact, I am of the opinion that Revan isn’t even the most powerful force user of his/her time, but I could very well be wrong about that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
As for the true Sith, they do not seem to be an empire, so I would not characterize them as powerful on that level. I think there are powerful individuals among them, but I don't think they have huge fleets to do their bidding - that's why they have to resort to manipulation and guile. And they've been good at it too.
Yep, I’m on the same boat here. I doubt the True Sith has a massive, Malak size fleet at their disposal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Perhaps, but patience is not something I associate with the Sith. If they want the republic and the jedi to die that badly, then it seems difficult to believe they would be able to resist the urge to exploit the situation at the first opportunity... unless, of course, they had no other choice.
Normally, yes, patience isn’t a common trait amongst the Sith, but they did wait 1000 years for their revenge, with the whole Darth Bane, rule of two kafuffle, so that same patience might just apply to these True Sith.

Personally I believe that they did have a massive, or quite large empire before the Mandalorian Wars, but at the time, the Republic and the Jedi Order were quite strong, and the True Sith weren’t certain if they were going to win or not, because they were unsure of the size of the Republic/Jedi fleet, and the skills of the Jedi they were going to face.

So they tested them, by somehow persuading the Mandalorians (whether they knew or not, I don’t know) to attack the Republic and start the Mandalorian Wars. Now, I’m not sure when, but I believe that some time during or after the Mandalorian Wars (before the Jedi Civil War) they erupted into a huge civil war, which weakened them severely to the point where they would be forced to delay their attack.

Then, sometime after the Jedi Civil War, the True Sith were preparing to attack (after some recovery time), but then Revan came in to “keep them at bay” for as long as possible, and possibly destroy them, from the inside. Who knows?

Or maybe, the True Sith has just always been weak, and it’s taken them ages to rebuild, or build up their empire to the point where they can launch an attack against their enemies.

Still, if this is the case, I believe that “when they were ready” after the Jedi Civil War, Revan came in to mess things up, and Revan’s plan is why the True Sith never launched an attack in TSL, a time where they clearly could have. The point is, there are plenty enough reasons for the devs to choose from explaining why the True Sith haven’t attacked yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Naturally I haven't forgotten my own plot, but I fear I have not expressed my intention here very clearly. The description was directed mostly at SilentScope001, whose perception of the true Sith seems to differ a lot from my own, since I don't see them "pulling a Palpatine" - I doubt they'll try to subvert the Republic by infiltrating the democratic structure. I think that when they come, they will come in force and as conquerors.
Agreed. And I think that the Jedi/Republic/Mandalorian/ (and perhaps the remnant “known” Sith) alliance are going to be surprised to discover who the leader of one of the True Sith attack forces are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
By the end of KotOR3, the main character will obviously not be a padawan anymore. At least in the sense that it implies. Remember that even Revan was called a padawan towards the end of KotOR, because he was never given the rank of jedi knight. That didn't stop him from being powerful, though. Same with Jolee, btw.
But Revan wasn’t really a padawan, was he/she? I cannot imagine a stereotypical padawan accomplishing Revan’s feats in KotOR. And Jolee was more powerful than a padawan if you ask me. He isn’t a Jedi Knight in KotOR, because he left the Order when he was a padawan. Had Jolee not have left the Order, surely he would have become a Jedi Knight.

They may have both had that rank in KotOR, but they showed more power than a padawan. Jolee could hold his own against almost any Sith in KotOR, and Revan certainly could too. He beat the Dark Lord and Bastila, a powerful Jedi Knight. I couldn’t imagine a true padawan doing such things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
And as you know, my plot is built strongly on the basis of getting Revan and Exile to fight the true Sith. That doesn't make the K3 pc weak, it just means he has to be more persuasive and less confrontational. We've already had one "most powerful jedi" and one "bane to jedi". It's boring to keep raising the bar by creating yet another uber-jedi, who's the most powerful yet.

It'd be like "Well, in K1 you're Revan, the most powerful jedi of his time! But oh wait, here's the exile, who's a wound in the force - he can resist powers that Revan is helpless against!! But oh gosh - here's the K3 pc - now he is REALLY powerful!!!!!!!!!!!" - It's boring, it's unimaginative, and it's old! Enough already!
Hmm, I see your point, and I agree. We don’t have to play as an uber powerful character in KotOR III, however, if we don’t, we shouldn’t be facing and defeating anyone who is unquestionably powerful, on say, Malak or Kreia’s scale.

Leave the powerful motherfockers up to Revan and the Exile. Bring them in as playable characters towards the latter stages of the game, and smash the powerful ones with them. Have three groups of three, with Revan (YOUR Revan) leading one party, the Exile (YOUR Exile) leading a party and the PC of KotOR III leading the other one.

And have Revan and the Exile as controllable characters too. This CAN be done, since the Xbox 360 will be able to handle the “size” problem far better than its predecessor, the Xbox. In fact, that’s a fantastic reason why Revan and the Exile should be in KotOR III, because if the PC is left to beat all the “big guns”, the story will end up being far-fetched, and we don’t want that do we?
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Old 03-06-2007, 10:25 PM   #104
SilentScope001
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Hmm, I see your point, and I agree. We don’t have to play as an uber powerful character in KotOR III, however, if we don’t, we shouldn’t be facing and defeating anyone who is unquestionably powerful, on say, Malak or Kreia’s scale.

Leave the powerful motherfockers up to Revan and the Exile. Bring them in as playable characters towards the latter stages of the game, and smash the powerful ones with them. Have three groups of three, with Revan (YOUR Revan) leading one party, the Exile (YOUR Exile) leading a party and the PC of KotOR III leading the other one.

And have Revan and the Exile as controllable characters too. This CAN be done, since the Xbox 360 will be able to handle the “size” problem far better than its predecessor, the Xbox. In fact, that’s a fantastic reason why Revan and the Exile should be in KotOR III, because if the PC is left to beat all the “big guns”, the story will end up being far-fetched, and we don’t want that do we?
But an argument against follows: Why let you play as Revan and Exile? Then K3's ending would basically be focused on THEM. It might be okay, but I don't want Revan's and Exile's ego being stroked. They were already stroked in the first two games, we should focus on the Jedi Padawn. I want the Padawan to feel strong, I want them to defeat the True Sith...I don't want to be overshadowed by Exile and Revan.

Another thing also follows: If you play Dark Side, well...would you still ally with Exile or Revan? Or would you attack them...and kill them? You get a problem over there (if the player is NOT able to defeat the powerful Sith...he should not be able to kill off Exile and Revan, as Jediphile had in his story). Remember, not everyone is a goody two-shoe Light Sider. If given the oppurnity, I, at least, would defect to the True Sith, and I don't want options to be limited.


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Old 03-07-2007, 12:14 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Sounds like some random side-quest thrown in, as well as throwing in a McGuffin (I hate McGuffins)...but the outline seems okay. As long as you can tie that Sith Tomb into the main story (you know, the True Sith threat), it could explain how the Main Character of K3 is able to gain power. It might be a comrpomise between my view and Jediphile's view, but not much.
The only problem with Henz’s idea is that it sounds like something where…you go from a nobody to uber-powerful in just that time you’re at the tomb (which I don’t think sounds all too long). That’s like starting KotOR at level one, and then fifteen minutes later, you’re at level 20!!! What the hell?

To me, that’s how the idea sounds. The connection needs to be…personal, yet now that I think of it; the PC doesn’t need to be that powerful (we’ve got Revan and the Exile to handle the “big boys”). Besides, not being powerful would make the game more challenging I think, which I believe most people want.

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Originally Posted by SilentScope001
I actually like this idea. But I do hope the developers find a way to do such a thing...
Meh, I’d rather see (and fight in) a big finale battle above the planet of Coruscant. The True Sith vs. the Jedi, the Republic, the Mandalorians and perhaps the known Sith. Why? To bring KotOR III to an epic closure, in the finale to a trilogy style, if that umm…makes sense. Repetitive or not, I can’t see how these True Sith are going to be defeated with subtlety.

The PC could have some final showdown with a True Sith general (who’s not that powerful) but more of a military tactician than a force user, but is still strong enough to give you a hard time defeating him.

The Exile could have a final showdown with the apprentice of the Dark Lord of the True Sith, and Revan could fight the Dark Lord of the True Sith, or it could be a two on two battle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
1) Boosting Revan's and Exile's egos will only fuel the fanboys. I don't want them to steal the show, so to say, in K3.
Revan and the Exile’s egos have already been boosted enough anyway. Even if both of them don’t appear in KotOR III, they will still be ego bruised by the fan-boys. Revan wasn’t in TSL, but that hasn’t stopped the fan-boys from worshipping him/her like a god.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
If the Jedi Padawan goes to the DS (trust me, I love the Dark Side), your story has me going alone, slaughtering Darth Nihlius reborn (and how is that possible?), Revan ("heart of the Force"), and the Leader of the True Sith (who wasn't even given a personality, he was just a redshirt). Doesn't sound me being persuasive, more like me being an barbariac ogre running around killing everything. You even admit that my mindless slaughter will not even give me the title of Leader of the True Sith, I'm just doing it because I got bloodlust, and I love the Dark Side.

You had me kill not one, but THREE powerful force users (especially Darth Nihlius Reborn. You expect my Padawan to kill off a Planet-Destroyer? And if he gets destroyed easily, you'll just make the fanboys state: "If this Padawan can kill off Darth Nihilus Reborn...then Revan can kill off the Real Darth Nihilius easily!")...and you did not even give me a reason for why I would do such a thing, never mind HOW I would do such a thing, considering the fact that I am a Padawan.
From what I remember of Jediphile’s plot, you cannot kill Revan, Darth Nihilus reborn or the Dark Lord of the True Sith alone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
But an argument against follows: Why let you play as Revan and Exile? Then K3's ending would basically be focused on THEM. It might be okay, but I don't want Revan's and Exile's ego being stroked. They were already stroked in the first two games, we should focus on the Jedi Padawn. I want the Padawan to feel strong, I want them to defeat the True Sith...I don't want to be overshadowed by Exile and Revan.
Well, I’m just looking at what would most likely happen, if Revan and the Exile are alive, and if there is no reason why the PC of KotOR III can kill the powerful ones among the True Sith. They’re not just going to sit around and sun bake are they? They will take on, and probably stop, the big guns.

And even if there’s a reason why the PC of KotOR III can kill the powerful ones among the True Sith, and Revan and the Exile are around, what’s to stop them from fighting some, most or all of the big guns? They wouldn’t just leave it all to you, if they’re around, would they?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Another thing also follows: If you play Dark Side, well...would you still ally with Exile or Revan? Or would you attack them...and kill them? You get a problem over there (if the player is NOT able to defeat the powerful Sith...he should not be able to kill off Exile and Revan, as Jediphile had in his story). Remember, not everyone is a goody two-shoe Light Sider. If given the oppurnity, I, at least, would defect to the True Sith, and I don't want options to be limited.
Of course you would. The True Sith that oppose Revan and the Exile’s forces, and the Republic/Mandalorian/Jedi/remnant Sith, are the biggest threat at the time, and must be stopped.

You help Revan and the Exile take care of them in whatever way you can, then after they’re finished with, if you want to eliminate them, you’ll obviously need help, knowing that if you fight Revan and/or the Exile, you’ll be killed. So, who’s going to help you?

Influence may be an important factor here. But you’ve got plenty of people to choose from. Party members, Jedi, Mandalorians, remnant Sith, Republic troops. Surely some, perhaps most of them will help you. It depends on a number of things I guess.

Meh, if you make the wrong choices, why not pay the price for it? What if one or two of the endings resulted in the death of the K3 PC? That would be a twist…a nasty one, but it’s very much so a possibility as far as I’m concerned.
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Old 03-07-2007, 02:13 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by SilentScope001
1) Boosting Revan's and Exile's egos will only fuel the fanboys. I don't want them to steal the show, so to say, in K3.
2) ...Depends on if the Force Connection bond itself really is boring. To me, the REASON why you gain power is part of the story, and since I play the game for the story, it sounds pretty good, if they can give the player a Force Connection.
1) So it's better to fuel the ego for the new character by making him even more powerful? That doesn't make much sense to me. Besides, Revan and exile are already established as fairly powerful characters. If ego-boosting is what concerns you, then taking them down a peg or two does not sound so bad. Also, stroking the ego for the new pc has been your major argument in the past, so I don't see how this hangs together.

2) Naturally the pc will have a force connection, and not a weak one either. After all, if the pc is DS, then he would have to stab Revan in the back at some point, and even with treachery that is not exactly easy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Kreia would disagree.

"The Sith is a belief. And its empire, the True Sith Empire, lies elsewhere."
To me that is a reference to the true Sith being what remains of the Sith Empire that fell in the conflict between Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh, which is the only Sith Empire ever established in Star Wars. It is an empire only in the sense that Palpatine's empire is an empire in the post-RotJ and NJO era - it's a remnant more than an actual empire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Not really. Let look at this statment:
"But oh wait, here's the exile, who's a wound in the force - he can resist powers that Revan is helpless against!!"

This means that The Exile can defeat Darth Nihlius and the rest of the Sith Trimutiave, BUT wheter he is less/more powerful than Revan is debatable. It does not matter though.
Not to you and me, perhaps, but it certainly is to the fanboys. I remember this guy at one point, who argued that the exile was the strongest jedi ever and was undefeatable because he could drain force powers instantly, like when he kills a jedi master...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
You even admit that my mindless slaughter will not even give me the title of Leader of the True Sith, I'm just doing it because I got bloodlust, and I love the Dark Side.
Actually, I haven't admitted that...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
And that's just for DS. For LS, at the end of the game, you play as Revan as HE battle the True Sith Leader. Not you. HIM. He gets all the glory, and you get...nothing. No fame, no honor, nothing at all. Why not just had a NPC basically tell you that Revan destroyed the True Sith and end it at that? Why even bother playing the game and creating your character when Revan just comes in and overshadows you?
Clearly you have not read my plot for K3, though I have given you a link to it. If you've chosen not to read it, that's fine by me - it IS very, very long. But you would be better served not making assumptions about it in that case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
But Revan wasn’t really a padawan, was he/she? I cannot imagine a stereotypical padawan accomplishing Revan’s feats in KotOR. And Jolee was more powerful than a padawan if you ask me. He isn’t a Jedi Knight in KotOR, because he left the Order when he was a padawan. Had Jolee not have left the Order, surely he would have become a Jedi Knight.
Actually, I think Jolee would have been a master - he's far more experienced and certain of himself than Bastila who longs for the master-level. And Jolee bases his decisions on wisdom where Bastila merely clings blindly to the cold jedi code. And naturally Revan was no mere padawan at the end of K1. Nor will the K3 pc be. But it is where I'd like him to start and then gain the actual title of knight about 30% through the game and take a padawan learner - remember that Qui-Gon had a padawan, Obi-Wan, even though he was not a master. And Obi-Wan took Anakin as his learner upon gaining the rank of knight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
But an argument against follows: Why let you play as Revan and Exile? Then K3's ending would basically be focused on THEM. It might be okay, but I don't want Revan's and Exile's ego being stroked. They were already stroked in the first two games, we should focus on the Jedi Padawn. I want the Padawan to feel strong, I want them to defeat the True Sith...I don't want to be overshadowed by Exile and Revan.
Since Revan and exile will not be able to help the republic unless the K3 pc helps them get to that point, the pc will indirectly have the credit for anything they subsequently do. He's a catalyst. And obviously the new pc should not be standing idly by during the final confrontation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
Leave the powerful motherfockers up to Revan and the Exile. Bring them in as playable characters towards the latter stages of the game, and smash the powerful ones with them. Have three groups of three, with Revan (YOUR Revan) leading one party, the Exile (YOUR Exile) leading a party and the PC of KotOR III leading the other one.
That was what I always intended in my own plot. Though I'll admit that maybe the position of the K3 pc should be a bit more prominent than what I originally considered...

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
From what I remember of Jediphile’s plot, you cannot kill Revan, Darth Nihilus reborn or the Dark Lord of the True Sith alone.
True.


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Old 03-07-2007, 03:18 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Jediphile
To me that is a reference to the true Sith being what remains of the Sith Empire that fell in the conflict between Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh, which is the only Sith Empire ever established in Star Wars. It is an empire only in the sense that Palpatine's empire is an empire in the post-RotJ and NJO era - it's a remnant more than an actual empire.
I agree, People seem to forget that. I'm sure I remember an Obsidian Q+A, in which a similar discussion took place about the "true Sith", they said the true Sith were a "Geographically" different group to those mentioned in the comics? Which to me is total non-cannon BS. So we can't really predict what there gonna come up with.


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Old 03-07-2007, 03:38 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by adamqd
I agree, People seem to forget that. I'm sure I remember an Obsidian Q+A, in which a similar discussion took place about the "true Sith", they said the true Sith were a "Geographically" different group to those mentioned in the comics? Which to me is total non-cannon BS. So we can't really predict what there gonna come up with.
Yes, it's an odd thing to say when saying nothing is better. Suffice it to say that the jury is still out on just who these "true Sith" really are.

Some might think letting them be the descendants of the fallen empire of Ludo Kressh, Naga Sadow, and Marka Ragnos is not that original, but personally I think the existence of yet another Sith empire unknown to all and uber-powerful sounds too much like some fanboy's wet-dream. I'd rather they avoid that. Building on what is already established is a better solution IMHO. But nothing seems to be set in stone about the true Sith, so I guess we'll just have to wait and see.


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Old 03-07-2007, 12:10 PM   #109
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The only problem with Henz’s idea is that it sounds like something where…you go from a nobody to uber-powerful in just that time you’re at the tomb (which I don’t think sounds all too long). That’s like starting KotOR at level one, and then fifteen minutes later, you’re at level 20!!! What the hell?
Ah, now you sway me.

Quote:
To me, that’s how the idea sounds. The connection needs to be…personal, yet now that I think of it; the PC doesn’t need to be that powerful (we’ve got Revan and the Exile to handle the “big boys”). Besides, not being powerful would make the game more challenging I think, which I believe most people want.
The game's going to be challenging/easy NO matter what your Force Connection actually is. It's just a story-telling device, with no meaning. For example, The Exile has the potential to kill off Darth Nihilus, and he's the only one, but, if a person does not play right or install the Hardcore Mod, he can easily be slaughtered off on Peragus. The difficuilty of the game is a game balance issue that has no effect on the story.

Quote:
From what I remember of Jediphile’s plot, you cannot kill Revan, Darth Nihilus reborn or the Dark Lord of the True Sith alone.
Gameplay wise, if you gang up on an enemy, the enemy will go down easily. See Darth Nihilus.

I'm NOT just complaining about the player killing off Revan, and the Dark Lord of the The True Sith.. I'm alos complaining that the only person that is able to defeat Darth Nihlius is The Exile. Why? Because The Exile can resist Darth Nihilus' Force Drain.

Can the Jedi Padawan do that? No. If he could, he would have a Special Power, and you don't want that to happen, no? Darth Nihilus Reborn would suck up all the people in the Party, including the Jedi Padawan. Only The Exile can destroy Darth Nihilus...and if you let the Jedi Padawan and his Party kill off The Exile (the brand new Darth Nihlius), oh well. You cheapened the Origianl Darth Nihlus, and you make me say: "WHAT?!"

Quote:
Meh, I’d rather see (and fight in) a big finale battle above the planet of Coruscant. The True Sith vs. the Jedi, the Republic, the Mandalorians and perhaps the known Sith. Why? To bring KotOR III to an epic closure, in the finale to a trilogy style, if that umm…makes sense. Repetitive or not, I can’t see how these True Sith are going to be defeated with subtlety.
The epic battle is too cliched. Much more than the third Player having a Force Connection, being special. Frankly, I don't want such an epic battle, because it just sounds so...lame. Ooh, I just rush in and kill the Leader and I win!!!1!

That doesn't sound fun at all. I seen too many epic battles in the KOTOR series (Star Forge, Onderon, Darth Nihius' Battle, Traya Academcy) that they are no longer "epic". I want something...different. More subtle ending.

If the True Sith are manlipuative beings, then it suits them to die via manlipuation. To be undone by the very traits that they have...it is a great way of revenge. But, I'll avoid this point, because it seems to distract from the Main Question.

Quote:
Revan and the Exile’s egos have already been boosted enough anyway. Even if both of them don’t appear in KotOR III, they will still be ego bruised by the fan-boys. Revan wasn’t in TSL, but that hasn’t stopped the fan-boys from worshipping him/her like a god.
So why boost their ego even further? If Revan and Exile becomes playable and kill off the main baddies, then it seems as though K3 would focus on Revan and Exile, leaving the Jedi Padawan as...an idiot. Nobody to care about.

Quote:
Well, I’m just looking at what would most likely happen, if Revan and the Exile are alive, and if there is no reason why the PC of KotOR III can kill the powerful ones among the True Sith. They’re not just going to sit around and sun bake are they? They will take on, and probably stop, the big guns.
Still, it does focus the story on Revan and Exile. The PC of KOTOR III becomes a nobody, easily replacable, for the story is really a fanboy's dream of playing as Revan and Exile.

So there has to be a reason why the PC of K3 can kill off the leaders of the True Sith, so that the story focuses on HIM, and not on Revan and Exile.

Quote:
And even if there’s a reason why the PC of KotOR III can kill the powerful ones among the True Sith, and Revan and the Exile are around, what’s to stop them from fighting some, most or all of the big guns? They wouldn’t just leave it all to you, if they’re around, would they?
Then why must you contorl Revan and Exile as Playable NPCs? Why not just have them be just regural old NPCs? Just seem like a wet dream.

Quote:
Of course you would. The True Sith that oppose Revan and the Exile’s forces, and the Republic/Mandalorian/Jedi/remnant Sith, are the biggest threat at the time, and must be stopped.

You help Revan and the Exile take care of them in whatever way you can, then after they’re finished with, if you want to eliminate them, you’ll obviously need help, knowing that if you fight Revan and/or the Exile, you’ll be killed. So, who’s going to help you?

Influence may be an important factor here. But you’ve got plenty of people to choose from. Party members, Jedi, Mandalorians, remnant Sith, Republic troops. Surely some, perhaps most of them will help you. It depends on a number of things I guess.

Meh, if you make the wrong choices, why not pay the price for it? What if one or two of the endings resulted in the death of the K3 PC? That would be a twist…a nasty one, but it’s very much so a possibility as far as I’m concerned.
Why make the game more longer if you are battling against the True Sith, and then after that, turn on Revan and Exile? It would be better, if the Player is just a grunt, to ally with the True Sith, and work WITH them, rather than AGAINST them.

Why not ally with the bad guys? I mean, the True Sith are powerful, they are mighty. Surely, if you can get accepted into their ranks, why not? You are a Dark Sider, and the True Sith are the biggest Dark Side users out there. It sounds much more better: Instead of the final bosses being the True Sith Lords...it would be Revan and Exile. And you will need help for those final bosses, no matter if you are LS or DS.

And the possiblity of having the player get killed off? I'm making a sci-fi game where the Player actually get arrested. He has a desicion: Betray his comrades...or get executed. If he gets executed, the game ends. If he betrays his comrades...well, it's not a pretty sight. I wonder if it would be popular however...

Quote:
1) So it's better to fuel the ego for the new character by making him even more powerful? That doesn't make much sense to me. Besides, Revan and exile are already established as fairly powerful characters. If ego-boosting is what concerns you, then taking them down a peg or two does not sound so bad. Also, stroking the ego for the new pc has been your major argument in the past, so I don't see how this hangs together.
Remember what the game is about. It's not about Revan and Exile...it's about the Player of K3. It is the character that I make, it is the character I guide, and it is the character's actions that determine the ending. I ask, why bring Revan and Exile down a peg or two anyway when you play as them, because you would still be playing as them anyway, and the story will be focused on them.

I'm okay with ego-stroking, because without it, I have no reason to play the game. Really, if Exile and Revan is the ones that destroy the True Sith, and not my PC Character, I might not play K3. I feel as if I am not in contorl, and that my actions have no meaning, and that the story is all based on Exile and Revan...and not for anyone else. What I want is ego-stroking for the PC Character, NOT for Revan and Exile.

Quote:
2) Naturally the pc will have a force connection, and not a weak one either. After all, if the pc is DS, then he would have to stab Revan in the back at some point, and even with treachery that is not exactly easy.
...So can EVERY OTHER JEDI out there! They all got Force Connections, and not weak Force Connections. So why do I even bother playing, when I can have Bastila, Atton, Visas, etc. fight the True Sith? Why must I even do anything, can't I wait for Exile and Revan to 'finish the job'?

The stabbing of Revan and Exile (by outnumbering them) may actually be more fun...if it goes down that route, I'll likely kill off Revan and Exile in every playthrough, wheter LS or DS, but that will be more fun than destroying the True Sith, because you CAN'T destroy the True Sith, but you can destroy Revan and Exile. Still, you distract from the purpose, and I don't like the direction the story is going...

Quote:
To me that is a reference to the true Sith being what remains of the Sith Empire that fell in the conflict between Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh, which is the only Sith Empire ever established in Star Wars. It is an empire only in the sense that Palpatine's empire is an empire in the post-RotJ and NJO era - it's a remnant more than an actual empire.
Again, we don't know...

Quote:
Clearly you have not read my plot for K3, though I have given you a link to it. If you've chosen not to read it, that's fine by me - it IS very, very long. But you would be better served not making assumptions about it in that case.
I did read it, I read the parts that was important. The end of the game have you slaughter off Revan and Exile if you are a Dark Side User, and then have you go out and kill off the True Sith Leader, but you give us no reason WHY you would do such a thing.

I read it, and I dislike it. I don't hide my displeasure. I'll read it again and take some quotes to explain my displeasure more clearly.

(EDIT: To let you know that I read it...In the LS ending, you devote a whole cutscene on Revan, talking to the Jedi Order, basically telling them: "Thank you for pardoning me, but you see, since I fell to the Dark Side twice, I don't want to join the Order. I'll return to Exile. Oh, and please cover up that I ever existed. Thank you!"

Bah. BAH! The ending of the game is not focused on the Jedi Padawn but rather on Revan himself. Sort of reveals that the game is focused on Revan, and not on, say, the K3 PC.)

Quote:
Since Revan and exile will not be able to help the republic unless the K3 pc helps them get to that point, the pc will indirectly have the credit for anything they subsequently do. He's a catalyst. And obviously the new pc should not be standing idly by during the final confrontation.
Indirect credit won't cut it for the fanboys...would it? And I myself don't see the K3 PC having any sort of credit. If he is easily replacable, then surely anyone who is more connected to Revan and Exile would be able to save Revan and Exile and take the "indirect credit" as well, no? I mean, how about Carth leading an expediontary force? Or Exile's Jedi companions? Remember, the Jedi Padawan is nothing special...they can be easily REPLACABLE.


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Old 03-07-2007, 02:07 PM   #110
Titanius Anglesmith
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Originally Posted by The Architect
Meh, I’d rather see (and fight in) a big finale battle above the planet of Coruscant. The True Sith vs. the Jedi, the Republic, the Mandalorians and perhaps the known Sith. Why? To bring KotOR III to an epic closure, in the finale to a trilogy style, if that umm…makes sense. Repetitive or not, I can’t see how these True Sith are going to be defeated with subtlety.

The PC could have some final showdown with a True Sith general (who’s not that powerful) but more of a military tactician than a force user, but is still strong enough to give you a hard time defeating him.

The Exile could have a final showdown with the apprentice of the Dark Lord of the True Sith, and Revan could fight the Dark Lord of the True Sith, or it could be a two on two battle.
Frankly, I'm tired of the epic battles. There are way too many of them (Battle of Rakata Prime, Battle of Telos, Battle of Yavin, Battle of Endor, etc.), and the whole idea is quite a cliche. As I said, I would much rather have a more subtle ending. Revan and the Exile could be off fighting against the Dark Lord of the True Sith, and you would be working from the inside, fighting them in a much more subtle way and ultimately doing something that would destroy them.

And I am completely against the idea of having Revan and the Exile be additional playable characters. They're not who the game is about. The PC (whoever that may be) is who it's about. I've already played as both of them and already know what they're like and what they're capable of, so I don't really need to see again.


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Old 03-07-2007, 03:23 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by SilentScope001
I'm NOT just complaining about the player killing off Revan, and the Dark Lord of the The True Sith.. I'm alos complaining that the only person that is able to defeat Darth Nihlius is The Exile. Why? Because The Exile can resist Darth Nihilus' Force Drain.

Can the Jedi Padawan do that? No. If he could, he would have a Special Power, and you don't want that to happen, no? Darth Nihilus Reborn would suck up all the people in the Party, including the Jedi Padawan. Only The Exile can destroy Darth Nihilus...and if you let the Jedi Padawan and his Party kill off The Exile (the brand new Darth Nihlius), oh well. You cheapened the Origianl Darth Nihlus, and you make me say: "WHAT?!"
The "neo-Nihilus" would have some mentally induced inhibitions that would limit his abilities in that area. He will not be Nihilus as seen in TSL, where Nihilus acts on pure instinct. This incarnation thinks a bit more, giving an opponent more time to react.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
The epic battle is too cliched. Much more than the third Player having a Force Connection, being special. Frankly, I don't want such an epic battle, because it just sounds so...lame. Ooh, I just rush in and kill the Leader and I win!!!1!
This is Star Wars, so there are certain rules that must be observed. You may not like it, but it is expected.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
So why boost their ego even further? If Revan and Exile becomes playable and kill off the main baddies, then it seems as though K3 would focus on Revan and Exile, leaving the Jedi Padawan as...an idiot. Nobody to care about.
So, boosting ego for the K3 pc is okay, but not for Revan or exile whom you have very little control over? I don't get it - either ego-boosting is wrong or it isn't. And frankly, if I had to choose, I'd prefer to do that for anyone but the main character, since doing so is, well, a little distasteful to me...

Your tone here also seems to have a certain finality to it, as if giving ANY sort of focus to Revan or exile is completely incompatible with giving a new pc a major role. Why must it be so absolute? It's not as if there aren't playable NPCs in the first two games that have prominent roles to play in the plot, most obviously Bastila in KotOR and Kreia in TSL. Why is it suddenly such a crime for it to be done for Revan and exile in any way whatsoever during a much smaller part of the game? I don't understand that.

I sense that you reject the very notion out of hand and with absolute disgust. That doesn't give us much room for discussion. If you don't like the idea and refuse to consider it, then fair enough, but then it's better not to discuss at all, since neither of us will budge. I will listen to compelling arguments, but simplying stating that you dislike the idea to an increasingly stronger degree will not compel me to reconsider my position, in which case we're not headed anywhere positive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Still, it does focus the story on Revan and Exile. The PC of KOTOR III becomes a nobody, easily replacable, for the story is really a fanboy's dream of playing as Revan and Exile.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Then why must you contorl Revan and Exile as Playable NPCs? Why not just have them be just regural old NPCs? Just seem like a wet dream.
Which is exactly how I see a plot that focuses exclusive on maximum ego-boosting for the pc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Why not ally with the bad guys? I mean, the True Sith are powerful, they are mighty. Surely, if you can get accepted into their ranks, why not? You are a Dark Sider, and the True Sith are the biggest Dark Side users out there. It sounds much more better: Instead of the final bosses being the True Sith Lords...it would be Revan and Exile. And you will need help for those final bosses, no matter if you are LS or DS.
Then why is it so terrible to let Revan and exile provide that help? They're still just characters like everybody else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Remember what the game is about. It's not about Revan and Exile...it's about the Player of K3. It is the character that I make, it is the character I guide, and it is the character's actions that determine the ending. I ask, why bring Revan and Exile down a peg or two anyway when you play as them, because you would still be playing as them anyway, and the story will be focused on them.
No, it would be about the K3 pc. But I would like to see K3 as the closing chapter of a trilogy. The way I see it, I'd like about 90% of the game to be "KotOR3 pc's story" and the final 10% to be a conclusion to the entire trilogy, where all of your three PCs through each game has some role to play, along with a few of their respective companions to bring closure to the plot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
I'm okay with ego-stroking, because without it, I have no reason to play the game. Really, if Exile and Revan is the ones that destroy the True Sith, and not my PC Character, I might not play K3. I feel as if I am not in contorl, and that my actions have no meaning, and that the story is all based on Exile and Revan...and not for anyone else. What I want is ego-stroking for the PC Character, NOT for Revan and Exile.
And if the fates of Revan and exile are just cast aside casually without their sacrifices so far having clear and significant impact on how the whole true Sith plot unfolds and with them having significance in the final confrontation with the true Sith, then I might not be playing K3.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
...So can EVERY OTHER JEDI out there! They all got Force Connections, and not weak Force Connections. So why do I even bother playing, when I can have Bastila, Atton, Visas, etc. fight the True Sith? Why must I even do anything, can't I wait for Exile and Revan to 'finish the job'?
No, you can't. Because without the K3 pc, none of it is going to happen and the true Sith will rule the galaxy.

So no, not every other jedi out there can do it. And even if they could, what jedi? There are hardly any left.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
The stabbing of Revan and Exile (by outnumbering them) may actually be more fun...if it goes down that route, I'll likely kill off Revan and Exile in every playthrough, wheter LS or DS, but that will be more fun than destroying the True Sith, because you CAN'T destroy the True Sith, but you can destroy Revan and Exile. Still, you distract from the purpose, and I don't like the direction the story is going...
That is your right. I feel likewise about what you seem to be suggesting, though...

Also, if you're referring to my plot here, then in spite of your claims to the contrary, it is obvious you have missed a lot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
I did read it, I read the parts that was important. The end of the game have you slaughter off Revan and Exile if you are a Dark Side User, and then have you go out and kill off the True Sith Leader, but you give us no reason WHY you would do such a thing.
What? You would not want to be the new leader of the true Sith if you're DS? What other goal than maximum power do you have as a Sith?

And if you had read the "important" parts as you say, then you would not have been able to say this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
And that's just for DS. For LS, at the end of the game, you play as Revan as HE battle the True Sith Leader. Not you. HIM. He gets all the glory, and you get...nothing. No fame, no honor, nothing at all. Why not just had a NPC basically tell you that Revan destroyed the True Sith and end it at that? Why even bother playing the game and creating your character when Revan just comes in and overshadows you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
(EDIT: To let you know that I read it...In the LS ending, you devote a whole cutscene on Revan, talking to the Jedi Order, basically telling them: "Thank you for pardoning me, but you see, since I fell to the Dark Side twice, I don't want to join the Order. I'll return to Exile. Oh, and please cover up that I ever existed. Thank you!"

Bah. BAH! The ending of the game is not focused on the Jedi Padawn but rather on Revan himself. Sort of reveals that the game is focused on Revan, and not on, say, the K3 PC.)
That is just closure to Revan's fate. You almost give me the impression there is no ending or "glory" for the pc. Being the one who wrote that suggestion for a plot, however, I thankfully know better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Indirect credit won't cut it for the fanboys...would it? And I myself don't see the K3 PC having any sort of credit. If he is easily replacable, then surely anyone who is more connected to Revan and Exile would be able to save Revan and Exile and take the "indirect credit" as well, no? I mean, how about Carth leading an expediontary force? Or Exile's Jedi companions? Remember, the Jedi Padawan is nothing special...they can be easily REPLACABLE.
Well, you have a right to your opinion. I do reserve the right to disagree with it. Please don't shout, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
And I am completely against the idea of having Revan and the Exile be additional playable characters. They're not who the game is about. The PC (whoever that may be) is who it's about. I've already played as both of them and already know what they're like and what they're capable of, so I don't really need to see again.
I played through endless hardships as Revan in KotOR and exile in TSL. Is it so completely unreasonable that I get to see them reach any sort of goal and closure for all my hard efforts on their part?


"It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built" - Kreia

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Old 03-07-2007, 04:23 PM   #112
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There are to many people on this forum whining about Revan and the Exile being the focus of the story. The story will focus on the K3 PC as much as it will on Revan and the Exile. Why? Because Revan will be the one who is waging the war against the TS and the Exile is his general. At least that's what Kreia's words and that vision in the tomb on Korriban lead me to believe. Personally I find it difficult to put a new PC in all of this. Kreia predicts the future amazingly accurate (even the Republic's end) and she mentions that the Exile's party will recreate the Jedi Order, that the Exile will join Revan in the war against the True Sith but makes no mention of a new uber-powerful Jedi\Sith that will shape the events of K3. I don't mind a new PC as long as he has an interesting story and a good reason to become powerful but I don't see how they will place him in the game and make the story work.
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Old 03-07-2007, 08:00 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Ah, now you sway me.
???

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
The game's going to be challenging/easy NO matter what your Force Connection actually is. It's just a story-telling device, with no meaning. For example, The Exile has the potential to kill off Darth Nihilus, and he's the only one, but, if a person does not play right or install the Hardcore Mod, he can easily be slaughtered off on Peragus. The difficuilty of the game is a game balance issue that has no effect on the story.
Really? If the difficulty of the game is a game balance issue that has no effect on the story, then why are you even arguing that the PC of KotOR III needs to have a reason why he/she can defeat the “major villains” of KotOR III and increase in power rapidly to suspend disbelief?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Gameplay wise, if you gang up on an enemy, the enemy will go down easily. See Darth Nihilus.

I'm NOT just complaining about the player killing off Revan, and the Dark Lord of the The True Sith.. I'm alos complaining that the only person that is able to defeat Darth Nihlius is The Exile. Why? Because The Exile can resist Darth Nihilus' Force Drain.

Can the Jedi Padawan do that? No. If he could, he would have a Special Power, and you don't want that to happen, no? Darth Nihilus Reborn would suck up all the people in the Party, including the Jedi Padawan. Only The Exile can destroy Darth Nihilus...and if you let the Jedi Padawan and his Party kill off The Exile (the brand new Darth Nihlius), oh well. You cheapened the Origianl Darth Nihlus, and you make me say: "WHAT?!"
I guess we have different perceptions of how this “Darth Nihilus reborn” would be then. As you know, I believe that Darth Nihilus was a dark manifestation of the Exile, the seal to the wound, the dark side that he/she rejected at Malachor V.

The way I see it, the Exile unites with Darth Nihilus and seals the wound (for a strong LS or strong DS reason) and is no longer a wound in the force, but just a powerful Sith Lord, with draining powers that are not at the same scale as what Nihilus’ powers were.

You see; the reason why I believe Nihilus was such a big threat in TSL was because he was a void in the force, which could obviously drain almost anything with a connection to the force.

This “Darth Nihilus reborn” is Darth Nihilus + the Exile = Darth Nihilus the Exile (a combination of the two, that is NOT a void in the force). TSL Nihilus was just that, Nihilus.

In other words, Darth Nihilus II is dangerous, but not as dangerous as Darth Nihilus, and cannot kill everyone except for the Exile, or another wound in the force. He/she is just a powerful force user, who’s pretty good at draining the force from others, as I said.

So a group of pretty powerful force users (say 3-5 of them) including the K3 PC, could beat DN II. You could make it that (say if it was 5 on 1) that 3 of those force users (but not you) die in the battle against him/her.

Anyway, if I was writing the story for KotOR III (almost all of it would be like Jediphile’s), while throwing in my own ideas to keep the plot interesting from a role-playing perspective, I would change things here and there from the latter stages (about 2/3’s) of the game onwards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
The epic battle is too cliched. Much more than the third Player having a Force Connection, being special. Frankly, I don't want such an epic battle, because it just sounds so...lame. Ooh, I just rush in and kill the Leader and I win!!!1!

That doesn't sound fun at all. I seen too many epic battles in the KOTOR series (Star Forge, Onderon, Darth Nihius' Battle, Traya Academcy) that they are no longer "epic". I want something...different. More subtle ending.

If the True Sith are manlipuative beings, then it suits them to die via manlipuation. To be undone by the very traits that they have...it is a great way of revenge. But, I'll avoid this point, because it seems to distract from the Main Question.
Umm…I seriously can’t see how the True Sith can be defeated (in a non lame way) apart from any other way than an epic space battle. It’s clichéd, but…ah, necessary. You say that they could die via manipulation. Umm…care to elaborate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
So why boost their ego even further? If Revan and Exile becomes playable and kill off the main baddies, then it seems as though K3 would focus on Revan and Exile, leaving the Jedi Padawan as...an idiot. Nobody to care about.
???

Are you sure you read Jediphile’s story? If you did, I’m astounded as to how you’ve come to such a conclusion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Then why must you contorl Revan and Exile as Playable NPCs? Why not just have them be just regural old NPCs? Just seem like a wet dream.
Because they are leaders. They are PC’s. We played as them. Nuff said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Why make the game more longer if you are battling against the True Sith, and then after that, turn on Revan and Exile? It would be better, if the Player is just a grunt, to ally with the True Sith, and work WITH them, rather than AGAINST them.

Why not ally with the bad guys? I mean, the True Sith are powerful, they are mighty. Surely, if you can get accepted into their ranks, why not? You are a Dark Sider, and the True Sith are the biggest Dark Side users out there. It sounds much more better: Instead of the final bosses being the True Sith Lords...it would be Revan and Exile. And you will need help for those final bosses, no matter if you are LS or DS.
Meh, uber-powerful PC or not, I seriously hope the K3 PC isn’t as powerful as Revan and the Exile. And the way I see it, the True Sith aren’t going to accept someone who they believe isn’t powerful enough to stop them. In that case, why would they recruit you? They don’t need your help. You’re powerful…but not THAT powerful. The Sith respect power and are selfish too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
And the possiblity of having the player get killed off? I'm making a sci-fi game where the Player actually get arrested. He has a desicion: Betray his comrades...or get executed. If he gets executed, the game ends. If he betrays his comrades...well, it's not a pretty sight. I wonder if it would be popular however...
I think it would be an interesting change. BioWare were going to do this, with DSF Revan. I’m aware that the possibility of the K3 PC dying would seriously piss probably most people off, but the idea would make people think about their choices more. The wrong choices should have the direst consequences.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Remember what the game is about. It's not about Revan and Exile...it's about the Player of K3. It is the character that I make, it is the character I guide, and it is the character's actions that determine the ending. I ask, why bring Revan and Exile down a peg or two anyway when you play as them, because you would still be playing as them anyway, and the story will be focused on them.

I'm okay with ego-stroking, because without it, I have no reason to play the game. Really, if Exile and Revan is the ones that destroy the True Sith, and not my PC Character, I might not play K3. I feel as if I am not in contorl, and that my actions have no meaning, and that the story is all based on Exile and Revan...and not for anyone else. What I want is ego-stroking for the PC Character, NOT for Revan and Exile.

Umm…the story would focus on the K3 PC, since most of (using Jediphile’s plot as an example) focuses entirely on the PC and his/her quests. I’d say roughly 15-20% of the plot focuses on Revan and the Exile.

I can’t understand why you think what the PC does in Jediphile’s plot doesn’t qualify as important.
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Old 03-07-2007, 08:05 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
Frankly, I'm tired of the epic battles. There are way too many of them (Battle of Rakata Prime, Battle of Telos, Battle of Yavin, Battle of Endor, etc.), and the whole idea is quite a cliche. As I said, I would much rather have a more subtle ending. Revan and the Exile could be off fighting against the Dark Lord of the True Sith, and you would be working from the inside, fighting them in a much more subtle way and ultimately doing something that would destroy them.
Clichéd or not, I see a big final space battle as a necessity in KotOR III. No one has been able to come up with a non-lame way (apart from a traditional space battle) for the True Sith to be defeated.

You and SilentScope001 say they should be killed off in a much more “subtle” and “manipulative” way, but umm…that doesn’t exactly tell me much. That’s easier to say than do, without making it lame and nonsensical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
And I am completely against the idea of having Revan and the Exile be additional playable characters. They're not who the game is about. The PC (whoever that may be) is who it's about. I've already played as both of them and already know what they're like and what they're capable of, so I don't really need to see again.

And I am completely against the idea of having Revan and the Exile just cast aside as if they don’t exist….as if they’ve fallen off the map, then all of a sudden some new kid on the block somehow becomes uber-powerful in a short amount of time (more powerful than Revan and the Exile), saves the day and destroys the True Sith. Lame.

How does Revan and the Exile playing a big role in defeating the True Sith all of a sudden make the game about them, when the vast majority of the game (Jediphile’s plot) is about the K3 PC and his/her quests? I don’t understand this conception at all.

Me and Jediphile are just looking at what’s realistic. It’s highly unlikely that Revan and the Exile will just be brushed aside in KotOR III, and it’s highly unlikely that the K3 PC is going to be more powerful than them, and the only one who can stop the True Sith. And for those reasons, you can’t expect Revan and the Exile to not play an important role.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Not to you and me, perhaps, but it certainly is to the fanboys. I remember this guy at one point, who argued that the exile was the strongest jedi ever and was undefeatable because he could drain force powers instantly, like when he kills a jedi master...
That guy wouldn't happen to be OverPoweredGodzilla (OPG) would it?

God that guy didn’t umm…make the most compelling of arguments, or listened to reason. Nor was his grammar…up to scratch.
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Old 03-07-2007, 08:48 PM   #115
Titanius Anglesmith
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Originally Posted by The Architect
And I am completely against the idea of having Revan and the Exile just cast aside as if they don’t exist….as if they’ve fallen off the map, then all of a sudden some new kid on the block somehow becomes uber-powerful in a short amount of time (more powerful than Revan and the Exile), saves the day and destroys the True Sith. Lame.

How does Revan and the Exile playing a big role in defeating the True Sith all of a sudden make the game about them, when the vast majority of the game (Jediphile’s plot) is about the K3 PC and his/her quests? I don’t understand this conception at all.

Me and Jediphile are just looking at what’s realistic. It’s highly unlikely that Revan and the Exile will just be brushed aside in KotOR III, and it’s highly unlikely that the K3 PC is going to be more powerful than them, and the only one who can stop the True Sith. And for those reasons, you can’t expect Revan and the Exile to not play an important role.
Did I say cast aside as if they didn't exist? No. I said I would rather not have either of them be additional player characters. I'm all for them both being in the game and playing a large part in it, I just don't want to play as them again.

Of course they shouldn't be cast aside. It would make absolutely no sense at all if two of the most powerful Force-users in the galaxy at that time didn't play a large role in destroying the True Sith. I'm all for them being the ones who take out the big boys of the True Sith, just not in some huge epic battle. Now I wouldn't mind a big battle, but as I said, they have been way overused. Since the True Sith are such a great threat, a massive battle might be necessary or more fitting, but the devs could go about it a different way.

You said you don't get much from me saying that I would rather it be a "subtle" defeat, but I, of course, am not a dev so I don't have a lot of specifics here. I'm just kind of thinking off the top of my head, trying to throw out some ideas. As I said in an earlier post, it's confusing to me too.


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Old 03-08-2007, 12:42 AM   #116
SilentScope001
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I sense that you reject the very notion out of hand and with absolute disgust. That doesn't give us much room for discussion. If you don't like the idea and refuse to consider it, then fair enough, but then it's better not to discuss at all, since neither of us will budge. I will listen to compelling arguments, but simplying stating that you dislike the idea to an increasingly stronger degree will not compel me to reconsider my position, in which case we're not headed anywhere positive.
Understood. I think I'm going to need to retire out of this argument, just because I don't want this to devolve into a flame war. I'm not going to address all the points, just some...

Quote:
So, boosting ego for the K3 pc is okay, but not for Revan or exile whom you have very little control over? I don't get it - either ego-boosting is wrong or it isn't.
I play a game to have fun. To relax. To feel like I am important in the galaxy, contorlling it.

When I play a game, I usually play it for entertainment, and since it is easy to see yourself in any character you play as...when your character wins in the game, YOU win in the game. This is ego-boosting.

Ego-boosting is fine, but I'm too tired of seeing Revan and Exile. Their stories are already been told. I don't want them pushing my character off to the sidelines.

Quote:
No, it would be about the K3 pc. But I would like to see K3 as the closing chapter of a trilogy. The way I see it, I'd like about 90% of the game to be "KotOR3 pc's story" and the final 10% to be a conclusion to the entire trilogy, where all of your three PCs through each game has some role to play, along with a few of their respective companions to bring closure to the plot.
But to me, the story really REVOLVES around them. It is Revan and Exile after all that starts up the Sith Civil War that gets the True Sith murdering each other. Your role in the story is relegated to convincing Exile to join your party...and freeing Revan from his little prison cell. Remember, the Padawan has nothing distinughisng, so anyone else can easily replace this little fellow, and might as well do the job more EFFECTIVELY.

Once Revan and Exile is freed and working for the Republic, then it is they who end up fighting and destroying the True Sith Empire.

Quote:
No, you can't. Because without the K3 pc, none of it is going to happen and the true Sith will rule the galaxy.
...

But the K3 PC has no special power whatsoever. He's a regural Jedi Padawan. All you say is that a person has the oppunrity because he was there? Well, if the K3 PC is not there, and if he is easily replacable, someone else can do the exact same quest the K3 PC did. Why must you do it, when Visas, Handmadien, Atton, Bastila, Jolee (if LS), Jhunani (if LS) and Mira could easily fit the bill? Heh, maybe even Mandalore would be able to attack the True Sith and save Revan.

Quote:
So no, not every other jedi out there can do it. And even if they could, what jedi? There are hardly any left.
Sure, only 100 Jedi Knights. You just need one however to save Revan and convert Exile. Not to mention that if a Jedi Order starts running, more Padawans and Knights are going to be quickly produced, creating a lot more Jedi who can do this deed.

Quote:
What? You would not want to be the new leader of the true Sith if you're DS? What other goal than maximum power do you have as a Sith?
Didn't you just said in the story that the Jedi Padawan CANNOT be the Leader of the True Sith? After all, he's not that powerful, as you say.

Quote:
I played through endless hardships as Revan in KotOR and exile in TSL. Is it so completely unreasonable that I get to see them reach any sort of goal and closure for all my hard efforts on their part?
Revan defeated Darth Malak.

Exile stopped Darth Nihilus, Darth Sion, and Darth Traya.

There is your "hard work". The True Sith is the game that links K1 and K2 together, but if they were "stand-alone" games, your hard work has already been rewarded.

Also, why not just use the Civil War idea, and have the True Sith be very, very weakned, but with Revan and Exile paying the utlimate scarfice. With your "Special Power"/"Force Connection", you are able to finally vanquish the last of the True Sith Order...but, to be quite fair, that Connection won't actually help you as much as Revan and Exile did to help you, since without Revan and Exile giving up their lives to wage a deveasting civil war against the True Sith, to delay them until the Republic is able to rebuild...well, you would be easily smashed. But thanks to Revan and Exile, you have a chance.

Quote:
(You haven't read Jediphile's plot)
I have read Jediphile's plot, and this is my view of it. I just view it as bad, and terrible.

Quote:
That is just closure to Revan's fate. You almost give me the impression there is no ending or "glory" for the pc. Being the one who wrote that suggestion for a plot, however, I thankfully know better.
Show it to me. This is the text I have gathered for how you will end the game:

Quote:
The light side ending for LS Revan should also tie up several plots, including the romantic interests, of the first game. First Revan should try to convince Jolee to return to the Jedi council. While Jolee is initially dismissive, Revan should explain to him that the new and young jedi council will need his wisdom if they are to rebuild successfully and avoid making the past mistakes of the previous jedi council. Jolee will reluctantly agree and accept a major position on the new council for his remaining years.

In the end the council considers Revan as the head of the new Jedi Council, but Revan decides against it due to his/her ties to the dark side, which are now difficult to sever, but also because he/she has strong feelings for Bastila/Carth. This is against the Jedi Code, and having fallen from the light before, he/she now understands the dangers involved. Revan would cite a lot of musings here that players of KotOR1 will recognize as having heard from Jolee's experiences, but it's not just that Revan's accepts the jedi codes over his love for Bastila (or Carth for a female Revan). The truth is that Revan has now fallen to the dark side twice, and only love saved him this time. However, love also tempted him to fall, when Malak corrupted Bastila, so now Revan understands the wisdom in this part of the code, yet he/she cannot follow it, because the feelings for Bastila/Carth are too powerful and undeniable - to try would be to lie to himself/herself. Besides, the possibility of falling to the dark side a third time and become the scourge of the galaxy once again is not something Revan wants to risk becoming. Instead he/she discusses this with Bastila/Carth, and they decide to leave the Republic and instead settle on Myrkr where the force is absent, so that they can be free to embrace their love for each other and settle down without fear of falling to the dark side again - choosing love over the power of the force is rather romantic, isn't it? But willingness to sacrifice has always been Revan's strongest trait. And besides, this leaves the option of having Revan and Bastila return should the Republic ever be faced with a severe enough danger.

The council accepts this and vows to keep their choice secret, altering the official records to state they they were both killed during the final battle.
The fact of their fate will be known only by the masters of the high council, which will consist also of the Exile (if he/she was light side) and the main character. Of course, the Exile also turned to the dark side, but the Exile is known to have the unique ability to deny the will of the force, which Revan does not possess, so the Exile is far less likely to fall again. In short, if Revan, the Exile, and the new main character are all light side, then Revan gets to settle down with Bastila or Carth, but leaving the force behind him/her, while the Exile gives up any interests of love and instead chooses to serve the force, while the new main character is elevated as the newest master on the jedi high council.

The End
...There. The bolded part tells you the fate of the Jedi Padawan. It's only a couple of words compared to your huge long speech that Revan will give to the Jedi Council, and his giving up of the Force to fufil his love (all of Revan's fate is in italics).

Revan gained much, much more screen time than the Jedi Padawan, which transaltes to me as a LOT of glory. He gets the title of Greatest Jedi Master...but...er...why? He's just a regural Padawan, as you says.

Quote:
???
This means that I accept your point about Henz's idea. You are right.

Quote:
Umm…I seriously can’t see how the True Sith can be defeated (in a non lame way) apart from any other way than an epic space battle. It’s clichéd, but…ah, necessary. You say that they could die via manipulation. Umm…care to elaborate?
I'm thinking of writing one, but any method of manlipuation would be based on a combination of undermining morale, like in Nar Shadda with the Settlers, and a Darth Sion's mini-game. You go and you break the will of the Dark Lords of the True Sith. Basically, I'm wanting to take Jediphile's idea of giving the player a sort of "Force Empathy", and twist it, turning the K3 PC into..."The Manlipuative Bastard", a la mini-Kreia.

He is able to detect people's feelings, know what they really feel, and dig deep into them to learn their past. (Example of Manlipuative Bastard in Action, taken from Jediphile's story: "Your evil actions has allowed your best friend, Juhani to die, Revan! Juhani was killed on Katarr by Darth Nihilus, a monster that you have created to fuel your dark goals! How could you do such a thing, murdering off Juhani?") His power is ampilifed by the gaining of skills, such as Persuasion, or using powers such as "Force Persuade", though the Force Connection basically allows you to find out what others believe in...allowing for the Player to use that knowledge against others. The Manlipuative Bastard can be, in a more chartiable light, be seen as The Jedi Preacher (if the Manlipautive Bastard goes LS), as he can find out ways to 'redeem' the True Sith, and make them doubt their intentions (making them easier to kill). The DS Manlipuative Bastard would merely crush their will, or encourge them to attack their masters ("You support your master far too much, I see you in battle, and I know you can murder off your master, and claim his power.").

Basically, you play as this Manlipuative Bastard, weakening the True Sith (either causing them to wage civil war...or join up with the Jedi Order), and quite possibly, strenghting the Republic (by manlipuating/persuading people to support the Republic), though a Dark Sider would most likely not do such a thing. I guess, in the long run, an epic naval battle MAY have to be fought, but you can still win it via manlipuation, getting, for instance, the Commander of a very important Sith division to defect.

What I am hoping for, in the end, to be basically, a final match, ALONE, between you and the True Sith Leader, who is also a Manlipuative Bastard. You and the True Sith Leader has a "Battle of Wits" so to say. In each round, you go taunt each other, feeling each other out. If you win, the True Sith Leader becomes weak, and you can kill him easily. If, however, the True Sith Leader breaks your will (think of it as a will save rolled behind the scenes, the more effective the manlipuation, the more powerful his will attack is), you become weak, with some siginficant stat debuffs, making it harder to kill him. After you get rid of all the True Sith Leader's health, he'll recover it all, and the Next Round begins, where you try to break each other's will again. In the end, you win, the True Sith Leader dies...game ends.

Er...I hope this is not lame. This is how I see manlipuation can be done for K3. And, with Jediphile arguing that giving players a huge uber-power is stupid, and me partially (and relunctantly) agreeing, this might very well be the Power I might give the K3 Player. The problem is that people may not want to play as a Manlipuative Bastard, but then, that why I suggest the other name of "Jedi Preacher". (Such a mini-game may also go well with an improved Infulence system, influcing people OTHER than your party members...would be nice to go and persuade a couple of Jedi Masters to fall to the Dark Side, no?)

Just tell me if this idea is good or not. If it is, I'll structure my K3 storyline around that, it seems to be a good compromise between all our beliefs...but I doubt it.

Revan and Exile starts up the Sith Civil War (tm)...isn't that a form of manlipuation, too?


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Old 03-08-2007, 12:50 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
Did I say cast aside as if they didn't exist? No. I said I would rather not have either of them be additional player characters. I'm all for them both being in the game and playing a large part in it, I just don't want to play as them again.

Of course they shouldn't be cast aside. It would make absolutely no sense at all if two of the most powerful Force-users in the galaxy at that time didn't play a large role in destroying the True Sith. I'm all for them being the ones who take out the big boys of the True Sith, just not in some huge epic battle. Now I wouldn't mind a big battle, but as I said, they have been way overused. Since the True Sith are such a great threat, a massive battle might be necessary or more fitting, but the devs could go about it a different way.
My bad. I got the impression from your post that you didn't want Revan and the Exile to have prominent roles in KotOR III.

And fair enough. You don’t want to play as Revan and the Exile at all in KotOR III, whether as I do (but only at the latter stages of the game). I am considering doing a KotOR III story again (similar to Jediphile’s, which would this time be available to read only when it’s finished), but don’t ask me when I’ll start and finish this, if I decide to do one and complete it that is.

The K3 plot I have in mind will:

-Suspend disbelief (well, it should).

-Give the K3 PC a fixed background.

-Start the K3 PC off as a padawan on Coruscant who’s on the verge of becoming a Jedi Knight.

-Bring closure to TSL’s open-ended ending, the fates of Revan, the Exile and co and resolve the True Sith kafuffle.

-Ensure that the K3 PC plays a part in destroying the True Sith, and causes something very important: the beginning of a Dark Empire that will rule the galaxy for 200 years, or the prevention of the start of a Dark Empire that would of ruled the galaxy for 200 years.

Guess I’ll have to do this story I have in mind, right? But don’t expect me to start it, or finish it any time soon. I might do it, and if I do, I might complete it. No guarantees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
You said you don't get much from me saying that I would rather it be a "subtle" defeat, but I, of course, am not a dev so I don't have a lot of specifics here. I'm just kind of thinking off the top of my head, trying to throw out some ideas. As I said in an earlier post, it's confusing to me too.
Well, I'm not a dev either obviously, but if I was a betting man, I'd bet that the devs would not be able to find a way to kill off the True Sith via subtlety and manipulation without it being lame.

I like to think that I am creative myself, and I can’t see how it can be done, however, just because I can’t (currently I might add), doesn’t mean it can’t be done. For a start, we aren’t 100% sure who the True Sith are, so until we know that, we can’t talk about how they could be killed off, can we?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
This means that I accept your point about Henz's idea. You are right.
Aha.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
*Manipulative K3 PC idea.*
So in other words, we get to play as a witty, LS or DS (perhaps neutral) genius? Hmm, it could work, in some, perhaps most cases, but wouldn’t you have enemies (that could be powerful) that wouldn’t stop to talk to you in the first place, but try to kill you as soon as they see you?

Say DS Revan sees you, and he/she tries to kill you. How can you hold off someone powerful like that (if you’re not that powerful) to be able to try and manipulate him/her to your benefit?

Don’t get me wrong, I like the idea, but I think if we are to face powerful characters who aren’t big on chit chat and are more the “no words, all action” type, you might as well just throw in a “reason to explain why you’re powerful” in there, so you can be a powerful manipulative bastard/goody-goody preacher.

Last edited by Jae Onasi; 03-08-2007 at 05:01 PM. Reason: combined double post
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Old 03-08-2007, 02:18 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by SilentScope001
When I play a game, I usually play it for entertainment, and since it is easy to see yourself in any character you play as...when your character wins in the game, YOU win in the game. This is ego-boosting.
That may be one difference right there. I don't play for the ego-boosting at all - I play solely for the plot, to see what happens in it next. I don't care about some lame excuse to make me feel big and powerful. That detracts from the experience to me. And the one thing I will not tolerate is an inconsistent and lazy plot that just throws out characters and leaves gaping holes because it's more convenient. That game I will not be playing.

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Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Ego-boosting is fine, but I'm too tired of seeing Revan and Exile. Their stories are already been told. I don't want them pushing my character off to the sidelines.
Well, we have another difference there, because I don't think Revan's and exile's stories are told. If they had died, that would be one thing, but they didn't. Kreia, at the end of TSL when she finally, FINALLY supposed to be telling the complete truth, tells me that Revan is STILL out there, still fighting the true Sith, still waiting for exile to join his ranks, waiting for the exile to "go there with him, and do battle at the end of all things." Now, you can't end the game on that note and then deny me the right to see that. That is lazy plot. I've been promised to see that, and I'll be sorely disappointed if I don't get it.

And here is perhaps the thing that separates us - I may be the new pc in K3, but I'm also STILL Revan, I'm also STILL the exile. Those are MY characters, too, because I spend two other games building them into what they are now, and I want to see some closure to all that work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
But to me, the story really REVOLVES around them. It is Revan and Exile after all that starts up the Sith Civil War that gets the True Sith murdering each other. Your role in the story is relegated to convincing Exile to join your party...and freeing Revan from his little prison cell. Remember, the Padawan has nothing distinughisng, so anyone else can easily replace this little fellow, and might as well do the job more EFFECTIVELY.
Well, I've already said that I certainly don't think the character is weak or replaceable. If you don't believe me or agree with me, then that is your choice. For someone who has looked at my plot, though, it's surprising that you've overlooked the pc's empathic force ability to discern the true motivations of other characters, which is fairly important in enlisting the aid of Revan and exile.

I guess I want the new pc to simply not be a unique "Anakin Skywalker, most powerful jedi ever" as much as an "Obi-Wan Kenobi, very strong and potent jedi." I want the new pc to be a little more like Jaden Korr from Jedi Academy. What "special and unique powers" did Jaden have? None that I could tell. But he was fairly powerful... though not as powerful as Luke Skywalker, Kyle Katarn, and maybe even a host of others. Did that stop Jaden from being significant? Not in the slightest. While I may not consider Jedi Academy the best game around, I don't think it's plot was it's greatest problem, or at least that part of it. The biggest issue I might have with it is that the villains were a bit disappointing, which is a problem we won't have in KotOR3. So that's the formula I'd like to see for the main pc this time around. So shoot me...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Didn't you just said in the story that the Jedi Padawan CANNOT be the Leader of the True Sith? After all, he's not that powerful, as you say.
No, I didn't say that. I said the opposite, and I even wrote it in my plot. I've reconsidered a few details since I wrote the plot, but that part is actually in there already, albeit I'll admit I didn't emphasize it as much as I probably should have due to the already massive size of the description. But I did write this:

"if you decide to be dark side, then you can't let Revan stay around - Revan is more powerful than you are, and you want to end up being the dark lord yourself, so you can't have him/her around to threaten your power."

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Revan defeated Darth Malak.

Exile stopped Darth Nihilus, Darth Sion, and Darth Traya.

There is your "hard work". The True Sith is the game that links K1 and K2 together, but if they were "stand-alone" games, your hard work has already been rewarded.
No, it isn't, because after doing that, they didn't just hang out on the beach enjoying the sun with a few martini's. There was still more work to do after that, and I want to see some resolution for that too that goes beyond merely having the dubious honour of being killed off during the opening crawl. You seem to suggest something like that, though you're reluctant to actually describe what you really do want, but to me that is as annoying as seeing Hicks and Newt getting killed in the opening of Alien3 as a matter of course. That I will never accept. If K3 begins like that, then I'll be so mad I won't be playing it, and I'll probably try to suggest to others not to do either in my anguish and frustration... Because that's just lame and pathetic. Total FUBAR!

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
I have read Jediphile's plot, and this is my view of it. I just view it as bad, and terrible.
Gee, thanks for being constructive...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
...There. The bolded part tells you the fate of the Jedi Padawan. It's only a couple of words compared to your huge long speech that Revan will give to the Jedi Council, and his giving up of the Force to fufil his love (all of Revan's fate is in italics).

Revan gained much, much more screen time than the Jedi Padawan, which transaltes to me as a LOT of glory. He gets the title of Greatest Jedi Master...but...er...why? He's just a regural Padawan, as you says.
I'm baffled as to how you can say that Revan gets that title just after you've clearly described how he leaves the jedi order forever... And that is only for the LS ending.

And yes, you're right - going from a mere padawan to a jedi master on the council during the game is no feat at all...

Personally I think going further than that would not so much oppose the idea of suspending disbelief as destroy any and all possibility of it immediately... since the plot would then have no credibility whatsoever.


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Old 03-08-2007, 10:09 AM   #119
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So in other words, we get to play as a witty, LS or DS (perhaps neutral) genius? Hmm, it could work, in some, perhaps most cases, but wouldn’t you have enemies (that could be powerful) that wouldn’t stop to talk to you in the first place, but try to kill you as soon as they see you?

Say DS Revan sees you, and he/she tries to kill you. How can you hold off someone powerful like that (if you’re not that powerful) to be able to try and manipulate him/her to your benefit?

Don’t get me wrong, I like the idea, but I think if we are to face powerful characters who aren’t big on chit chat and are more the “no words, all action” type, you might as well just throw in a “reason to explain why you’re powerful” in there, so you can be a powerful manipulative bastard/goody-goody preacher.
You make a point. I did come up with a couple of ideas. I'm tying it into the Manlipuative Bastard idea since it seems to be the best I can come up with:

1. Your wittiness, either in manlipuation, or in preaching, allows you to easily form Force Bonds with others...of course, unwillingly. Via these Force Bonds, you are able to go from Level 1 at the begining of the game to Level 30 at the end of the game. (This has been used in K2, so I'm not sure that would work.) You could just say that you made enough Force Bonds with other people...or made an Force Bond with Revan that is involuontary (for Revan).

2. You know those Sith Assaisans at the begining of K2, in which they grow more powerful based on the enemies they face? Yeah, cheap plot devicie to explain why the Assaisans grow more powerful as you reach the end of the game...but what if you had this Power? What if you use your enemies as a focusing cyrstal, much like the Jedi Exile used his little pet Crystal to make his lightsaber more powerful?

Sure, it's nothing that great. The Exile wiped out a lot of canon-fooder Sith Assians, but we can just say that this is a more advanced Sith Assiasan who's actually smart. It is a good talent to have, and it could give a reason why you can grow more powerful to challenge the big dogs of K3.

So, you see DS Revan and you have to fight him (for the most part, I don't want to have the player fight Revan, that would cause lots of chaos, I don't know how to handle Revan, but I will find some way, but for an example)...you, in addition to your jedi talent, also use the Sith Assisans' power to act as a Focusing Crystal. The more powerful Revan is, the more you use Revan's power as a boost for your own. This is not Darth Nihilus' power right here, there's no big "Force Drain animation"...it's more of you finding a Crystal, and using that Crystal to grab excess Force and fine-tune it for your own use. You aren't draining Revan's power at all...you are making yourself more powerful to challenge Revan. (This is used in K2 to justify the Sith Assisans, but hey, exploring this ascept may be a little bit cool. Heh, you can even add in a complication of it being an ancient True Sith technique...It also have nothing to do with manlipuation, but it is an idea)

3. This is by far an idea that may make it seem forced, but...prehpas only major Boss Characters would want to talk and chit-chat. For example, Darth Sion seems to be the one who is the most "let go and fight!" person, but he's the person that you can start breaking the will. Even Darth Nihilus, the monster he is, stops to chat before attempting to drain you. So, in this crimustance,

Okay, so the random Sith trooper grunt won't stop and chat. But that's where your Jedi training and lightsaber-stabbing comes in. For the most part, people really don't need reasons for why you can defeat the Sith trooper, since any Jedi can do that, and you did gain levels to make you more powerful.

I'm also thinking of the Manlipuative Bastard using the Enemy's feelings, and doing events outside of that Battle to break that Enemy's will. An example is: As a Manlipuative Bastard, you could possibly figure out about a person's true feelings (say, his undying love...alright, lust for Kathy, the hot True Sith General...so much so that Kathy and the Enemy has a secret Force Bond), and while that person won't stop to talk, you can still use that feeling against him. You can go and find Kathy and murder her in any way possible. When Kathy dies, the Enemy suddenly goes into pain (much like when Kreia had her hand cut off, The Exile goes into pain). You can go and slaughter off the Enemy with ease now.

...Or, to use the Revan example, you learn that Revan and Bastila has a Force Bond (gee wizz!) and while you can't kill off Revan in the state you in, you CAN kill off Bastila. So, once Bastila tastes your lightsaber, Revan becomes hurt and goes down to your level, which means it's time to finish him off.

[That above tactic is what Atton described: Attack people who are on one end of a Force Bond, so that the other person can get hurt. Your Force Empathy power might, in this situation, detect Force Bonds, and if so, use that tactic. I'm thinking of calling it "emotional blackmail" as a Shorthand.]


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Onion
"The Cambodian government has established many exciting-sounding 're-education camps' where both intellectuals and everyday citizens can be sent at any time," Day said. Well, we at Barnes & Noble have always supported re-education in America, and we intend to extend this policy to our new customers." For every hardcover book sold, Barnes & Noble will donate a dollar to the Cambodian government to help re-educate local children.
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Old 03-08-2007, 02:02 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by SilentScope001
1. Your wittiness, either in manlipuation, or in preaching, allows you to easily form Force Bonds with others...of course, unwillingly. Via these Force Bonds, you are able to go from Level 1 at the begining of the game to Level 30 at the end of the game. (This has been used in K2, so I'm not sure that would work.) You could just say that you made enough Force Bonds with other people...or made an Force Bond with Revan that is involuontary (for Revan).
Meh. That seems like far too much of a carbon copy of what the exile did in TSL. Force bonds was the exile's particular field of expertise, making this sound highly unoriginal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
2. You know those Sith Assaisans at the begining of K2, in which they grow more powerful based on the enemies they face? Yeah, cheap plot devicie to explain why the Assaisans grow more powerful as you reach the end of the game...but what if you had this Power? What if you use your enemies as a focusing cyrstal, much like the Jedi Exile used his little pet Crystal to make his lightsaber more powerful?
Another copy from TSL, this time with a McGuffin on top. I thought you didn't like those. At least, that's what you told Henz.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Sure, it's nothing that great. The Exile wiped out a lot of canon-fooder Sith Assians, but we can just say that this is a more advanced Sith Assiasan who's actually smart. It is a good talent to have, and it could give a reason why you can grow more powerful to challenge the big dogs of K3.
That forces a DS aspect on the main character of the game, which has so far been optional every time. I don't want to be forced into that, since I tend to prefer the LS option. That may seem fine for you, but it would cut about half the players off from the game.


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