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Old 03-08-2007, 05:05 PM   #121
Jae Onasi
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Old 03-08-2007, 06:55 PM   #122
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Meh. That seems like far too much of a carbon copy of what the exile did in TSL. Force bonds was the exile's particular field of expertise, making this sound highly unoriginal.
Okay.

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Another copy from TSL, this time with a McGuffin on top. I thought you didn't like those. At least, that's what you told Henz.
The difference is that there is a reason why the person is powerful, because he has the power of the Sith Assiasan. It's not really McGuffin, as there is some hints that show that this is possible (K2).

Quote:
That forces a DS aspect on the main character of the game, which has so far been optional every time.
When I said that the K3 Character is a more advanced Sith Assisan, that is to be used as an example. You start off as a Jedi Padawan, no matter what, but you still have this power of the Sith Assaisans, somehow. This power is neither LS or DS...and, in fact, the story has a LS element at the begining, since you start off as a Jedi Padawan.
===
Quote:
I don't want to be forced into that, since I tend to prefer the LS option. That may seem fine for you, but it would cut about half the players off from the game.
And to end this discussion, once and for all...

I make a prediction: No matter what the developers of K3 happen, half the players are going to not play K3, because they hate it. Why? Well, you represent a portion of people who would not play K3 if it was my view, and I represent a portion of people who would not play K3 if it was your view. Since we take up opposite positions (yes/no to a force connection, yes/no for playing as Revan and Exile, etc.) I can make a good assumption that we both represent sizable minorities, and that we both are the speakers for the "silent majorities".

K3 has to follow the act of K1 and K2. It has to deal with the True Sith subplot. It has to make a balancing act. You call for the liberty of the Developers of K3 to create their own story, but what if they choose my story, with all the flaws that you make?

Let be honest. Neither of us will like K3 if it does not correspend with what we want in a game. K3 has to make a balancing act between the heroism of K1 and the cynicism of K2, and in essence, I predict it will fail, and either I hate it, you hate it, or we all hate it together. K3 will be a mess, and will be seen as "last" of the KOTOR series.

No, I don't want this to be true. But this argument shows that it is likely to be true, and that, until there is any actual word, anything at all to ease our paranoia and fear, then we must assume this is the case. I'm actually wondering if prehaps, there should not be a K3. Think about it: Without K3, we fill in the endings how we want it to be, and not be stuck with the hideous images that sooner or later, one of us will dismiss and cry foul. We get to enjoy K2 immenesly, and leave it at that. Not to mention, if the people actually state it outright, "There will be no more KOTOR3..." then we can finally have fun. No more flame wars, no more discussion, no more arguments. End the series right here, right now, on a high note, instead of jumping the shark.

I know they painted themselves into a corner with the True Sith subplot, but if ending the story on a cliffhanger is the price we must pay for avoiding the fate of having that cliffhanger be resolved in a manner that most people will hate...then let's do it.

Appealing to the developers? I don't think that would work, since it is passing the main delimma over them. It is bad business desicion to wipe out half your base, but guess what...they may have to. Which base to destroy, which base to pander to...I hope it is mine, but in the end, it really doesn't matter. The game ends, there is nothing to look fowards to, and we'll just have flame wars over the merits of K3, of people screaming it to be the lamest game ever.

What I really want is not to prove you wrong, Jediphile. What I want is for the developers of K3 to prove me wrong.

Please forgive me, I'm a cynic at heart.


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"The Cambodian government has established many exciting-sounding 're-education camps' where both intellectuals and everyday citizens can be sent at any time," Day said. Well, we at Barnes & Noble have always supported re-education in America, and we intend to extend this policy to our new customers." For every hardcover book sold, Barnes & Noble will donate a dollar to the Cambodian government to help re-educate local children.
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Old 03-08-2007, 09:39 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by SilentScope001
*Your cynical, rather negative view on KotOR III, which is a possibility.*
So in short, KotOR III won’t please everyone? Of course it won't.

Oh well, you might as well just go with what the majority of fans want (this is based on my own observations and some polls I, and others have made), which is:

-To start KotOR III off as a new PC; a padawan on the verge of becoming a Jedi Knight on Coruscant.

-To “suspend disbelief” regarding the K3 PC’s quick rise to power.

-To have Revan and the Exile appear in the flesh in KotOR III as non-playable characters (or temporarily playable characters at the latter stages of the game).

-To give Revan and the Exile important roles and have their fates revealed dramatically enough in KotOR III.

-Have most, or the entire story in KotOR III focus on the K3 PC.

-Make the player feel as if the K3 PC is irreplaceable and your actions in the game prove to be important.

-Allow the player to select the genders, alignments and if necessary, the appearances of Revan and the Exile.

-Instead of bringing closure to the whole True Sith fiasco via a conversation or two or whatever, we actually get to see what happens, fight the True Sith, and learn about who they are and so on.

-Don’t bring in too many new characters, when we’ve got plenty of characters such as Bastila, Carth, Atton, Visas, Mandalore, HK-47, T3-M4, Bao-Dur, Jolee, Mission, Zaalbar, Mira, the Handmaiden and the Disciple (who most should, and some could) play significant roles in KotOR III.

-To have KotOR III be set no more than 5 years after TSL.

-To have enough quests/side-quests to keep things interesting from a role-playing perspective, keep, but enhance the influence system and have anywhere between 7-12 party members, some optional, some forced.
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Old 03-08-2007, 09:49 PM   #124
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So in short, KotOR III won’t please everyone? Of course it won't.

Oh well, you might as well just go with what the majority of fans want (this is based on my own observations and some polls I, and others have made), which is:
True, and that is what I desire as well (except perhaps having 12 party members...the more party members you have, the less quaility for those party members. I don't want 4 Disciples in my party...also not having Revan and Exile being temp. player characters, though they should have an important role within the story, true).

It's the devil in the details where the arguments can be held...Can they pull it off effectively? That is what I fear.


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Originally Posted by The Onion
"The Cambodian government has established many exciting-sounding 're-education camps' where both intellectuals and everyday citizens can be sent at any time," Day said. Well, we at Barnes & Noble have always supported re-education in America, and we intend to extend this policy to our new customers." For every hardcover book sold, Barnes & Noble will donate a dollar to the Cambodian government to help re-educate local children.
Full Article Here
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Old 03-08-2007, 11:41 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by SilentScope001
True, and that is what I desire as well (except perhaps having 12 party members...the more party members you have, the less quaility for those party members. I don't want 4 Disciples in my party...also not having Revan and Exile being temp. player characters, though they should have an important role within the story, true).
Well, I won't lose any sleep if Revan and the Exile aren't temporarily playable characters in KotOR III. But, I do want to see them, and I do want them to have important roles in the game. And I agree with you about not having too many party members in KotOR III. I'd like quality over quantity. I say we should have six or seven party members in KotOR III, 2 or 3 of which, are optional.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
It's the devil in the details where the arguments can be held...Can they pull it off effectively? That is what I fear.
We just don't know do we? I also fear that KotOR III could be a BIG failure. Many people don't agree on what should be in KotOR III and what it should be about, so what is a success to some people will be a failure to others.

Maybe LA and/or Obsidian are "doing their research" to see what will be the most popular way to do KotOR III, to maximise profits and please as many people as they can. Is that why there's a KotOR III Ideas and Suggestions thread on Obsidian? Is that why LA has one as well? I wonder...
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Old 03-09-2007, 06:53 AM   #126
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Well, if the majority wants it, I would accept but

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
a padawan on the verge of becoming a Jedi Knight on Coruscant
I don't know if this should be the starting position. What if the dev's decide that in Kotor III, there will not be a new established Jedi Order on Coruscant? Then this option isn't realistic.

Honestly, I might as well start out as a Sith. If the story is build well and it does have most of your criteria, I would accept that.

Other then that, I think putting in a lot of our previous characters into the next game isn't a top priority either. If it is done right, no problem but if it would be a priority to a lot, then the devs might decide to make a cheap canon driven storyline, you know what I mean (Revan = LSM / Exile = LSF)

If I would be able to make a choice between bringing back previous party members or being able to choose the gender, alignment, face etc. for Revan and the Exile, I would certainly choose the latter and I think most agree to that.

Off course, there might be possibilities to both bring back former party members and customize Revan / Exile but it would be more difficult.
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Old 03-09-2007, 11:03 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by SilentScope001
The difference is that there is a reason why the person is powerful, because he has the power of the Sith Assiasan. It's not really McGuffin, as there is some hints that show that this is possible (K2).
Yes, but none that could apply to a jedi padawan that I can see. The sith assassins have gained that ability through Nihilus, who in turn has somehow gained it from the exile according to the jedi masters. And Kreia tells us that it cannot be learned.

Kreia: "It is a technique that is almost as old as the Sith themselves... it is a means of severing connections between life, the Force, and feeding upon the death it causes.It cannot be taught... it can only be gained through instinct, through experiencing its effects, first-hand."

and later in the same conversation:

Kreia: "The sect of assassins that chase you feed on the Force... what he does is simply the pinnacle of what they could achieve, in time. And that is why they - and their techniques - must be wiped out. No one again must experience and learn what her master did.As much as one may use the Force to bolster the wills and strengths of others, the reverse is possible, though not often used. Instead of sending one's will through connections in the Force, instead such connections are drawn upon, fed upon, and drained completely.Then you understand how terrible such a power is. And why it must be ended.It is an empty road to the dark side, and by traveling it, the price is death before one's time."

Very clear ties to the dark side, and very clear evidence that talent cannot be gained by chance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
When I said that the K3 Character is a more advanced Sith Assisan, that is to be used as an example. You start off as a Jedi Padawan, no matter what, but you still have this power of the Sith Assaisans, somehow. This power is neither LS or DS...and, in fact, the story has a LS element at the begining, since you start off as a Jedi Padawan.
Given what we know of this ability, it seems difficult to justify a jedi having this power to say the least. Personally I would consider it both impossible and beyond what is credible in the plot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
K3 has to follow the act of K1 and K2. It has to deal with the True Sith subplot.
Not everybody thinks so. IIRC, both RedHawke and Prime don't think so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
It has to make a balancing act. You call for the liberty of the Developers of K3 to create their own story, but what if they choose my story, with all the flaws that you make?
And what flaws have I made? I mean, I would like to complete my plot and eliminate any holes, so please point these flaws out to me.


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Old 03-09-2007, 12:43 PM   #128
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I don't know if this should be the starting position. What if the dev's decide that in Kotor III, there will not be a new established Jedi Order on Coruscant? Then this option isn't realistic.
Well, that is true. But the Jedi Order idea is thrown around because, in K2, the companions of the Exile are the "Lost Jedi", the True Jedi, upon which the future will be built. Basically, the Exile's actions are done to help recreate the Jedi Order once more.

By having a Jedi Order be built, it makes the events of K2 feels very important, since if it wasn't for The Exile, there would be no Lost Jedi, and no Jedi Order.

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Very clear ties to the dark side, and very clear evidence that talent cannot be gained by chance.
You sway me, Jediphile. You are indeed correct.

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Given what we know of this ability, it seems difficult to justify a jedi having this power to say the least. Personally I would consider it both impossible and beyond what is credible in the plot.
Well, this is why I really do hope that Obisidan, (who I hope will be the developers of K3), would just create such a backstory and a very good justification that is currently hidden from us presently.

Quote:
Not everybody thinks so. IIRC, both RedHawke and Prime don't think so.
Now that I think about it, RedHawke and Prime may be correct.

K1 had no focus on the True Sith. K2 threw in the True Sith as a way to explain why Revan leaves known space. But in K1 and K2, there is no actual fighting against the True Sith. You can say you are fighting against the True Sith indirectly (battling against Malak's forces who are destroying the Republic...and stopping the Sith Trimutivae), but you never see them.

So, prehaps, in K3, you could have the player fight against the True Sith still indirectly. Prehaps the True Sith are lauching a covert invasion via the threat of So-and-So. The main focus of the game would be stopping So-and-So, not the True Sith, but by stopping So-and-So, you are indeed stopping the True Sith.

It can be done. The True Sith, to me, is the thing that bridges K1, K2, and K3 togethere. They can't remove all mention of it. But they can have the True Sith not be the focus of the game, and rather, be something flavorous. The main threat is the enemy that the True Sith is secretly backing, and the game have you battle it.

If the developers can pull it off, then I might like it more. I want the True Sith to remain mysterious beings of evil, and not to be revealed. That way, all crackpots can claim the True Sith to be whatever they want it to be, letting the crackpots have fun.

Quote:
And what flaws have I made? I mean, I would like to complete my plot and eliminate any holes, so please point these flaws out to me.
Er...I didn't actually meant to say "flaws you make".

What I meant to say is :

Quote:
It has to make a balancing act. You call for the liberty of the Developers of K3 to create their own story, but what if they choose my story, with all the flaws that you point out?
This means that even with all the flaws that you believe is in the story, they choose mine, and you see those flaws and you dislike those flaws intensely. You call for developers' right to choose, but if the developers choose something that you hate, that I hate, that everyone hates...well, maybe the developers shouldn't have the right to choose.


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Originally Posted by The Onion
"The Cambodian government has established many exciting-sounding 're-education camps' where both intellectuals and everyday citizens can be sent at any time," Day said. Well, we at Barnes & Noble have always supported re-education in America, and we intend to extend this policy to our new customers." For every hardcover book sold, Barnes & Noble will donate a dollar to the Cambodian government to help re-educate local children.
Full Article Here
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Old 03-09-2007, 04:20 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by SilentScope001
This means that even with all the flaws that you believe is in the story, they choose mine, and you see those flaws and you dislike those flaws intensely. You call for developers' right to choose, but if the developers choose something that you hate, that I hate, that everyone hates...well, maybe the developers shouldn't have the right to choose.
Well, first of all, they won't have that right per se, since any plot they suggest must be approved by Lucasarts and possibly Lucas himself. I hate that idea, since I believe in artistic freedom, but that's the way it is.

Second, while you're indeed correct that I (or you or anyone...) may not like the results of what K3 will be, I will never the less support the developers right to make or break the story. Not because I necessarily have a lot of confidence in them (though I do have more in Obsidian than in most), but because the alternative is unthinkable. What? Should we have a poll of some sort to decide what K3 will be? That sounds just as bad as letting Robin live or die by a phone-poll and then say afterwards that it was really the fans' fault. No. If you write the story, then you accept the responsibility for it, be it good or bad. Otherwise the author is just running away from his creation.

But I may be too "european" in that sense in that I hate focus groups and studio execs pushing their weight around. And if it were up to the fans, some of the best Star Trek would never have been made (Wrath of Khan, Undiscovered Country, The Next Generation). Not that the fans are always wrong, mind you - there are times when they are indeed right on the money (Star Trek Enterprise...). Just my two credits.


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Old 03-09-2007, 06:35 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Well, that is true. But the Jedi Order idea is thrown around because, in K2, the companions of the Exile are the "Lost Jedi", the True Jedi, upon which the future will be built. Basically, the Exile's actions are done to help recreate the Jedi Order once more.

By having a Jedi Order be built, it makes the events of K2 feels very important, since if it wasn't for The Exile, there would be no Lost Jedi, and no Jedi Order.
True, the Exile may even when he/she was DS have created a new Jedi Order, the problem I have with this new order is when the Exile was DS it would be more like a Dark jedi order which may cause a problem for the creation of a good story not to mention the "connection" between the end of the Kotor series and the next "star wars event" about 300 years later if Wookieepedia is correct. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline#Timeline

Okay, in your plot you may have the exiles companions as the new jedi council members anyway which can be done, but how would it end? If they are all alive at the end of the plot it would built a new Dark Jedi order which conflicts with the Jedi teachings seen in both the movies and the comics.

Now the other possibility I have read so far is that if the Exile would be DS, I believe Jediphile and The Architect are doing that, there would be a new Jedi Order with other replaceable characters who were hiding during the first jedi purge / Shadow war.

That option seams more likely IMO but it would make a lot of work for the developers I guess.

And, if everything else fails. There are three characters we have seen in Kotor I & II which fate isn't known:

1) Bolook
2) Deesra
3) Chodo Habat

You cannot kill them, there is no mentioning of their fate so they can be used in any way possible. Sure, they may have died when either Malak (Dantooine)or Nihilus (Telos) attacked but we don't know for sure.
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Old 03-09-2007, 08:02 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by khawk
I don't know if this should be the starting position. What if the dev's decide that in Kotor III, there will not be a new established Jedi Order on Coruscant? Then this option isn't realistic.
True. But it is heavily implied at the end of TSL that LS Exile’s companions will form a new Jedi Order, so unless KotOR III has nothing to do with TSL, or the Exile’s companions just…die (both options of which I seriously hope do not happen) I think there would be a new Jedi Order in KotOR III, at least for LS Exile.

Quote:
Originally Posted by khawk
Honestly, I might as well start out as a Sith. If the story is build well and it does have most of your criteria, I would accept that.
The only problem with starting out as a Sith in KotOR III is that if you go LS, you are redeeming yourself, aren’t you? And the theme of redemption in Star Wars is just far too monotonous and clichéd. It happens WAY too much.

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Originally Posted by khawk
Other then that, I think putting in a lot of our previous characters into the next game isn't a top priority either. If it is done right, no problem but if it would be a priority to a lot, then the devs might decide to make a cheap canon driven storyline, you know what I mean (Revan = LSM / Exile = LSF)
No, not really. Bastila, Mandalore, HK-47, T3-M4, Visas, Atton and Bao-Dur could all have prominent roles in KotOR III regardless of the gender and alignment of Revan and the Exile. They don’t have to be party members.

Jolee, Mission and Zaalbar (if Revan is set as LS) could appear and play some role in KotOR III, and depending on the gender of the Exile, the Handmaiden or Disciple could. And Mira could if the Exile is set as LS.

Bastila (as an exception) is the only “could be killed” character I want to see in KotOR III regardless of Revan’s gender/alignment. Characters like Juhani, Yuthura, Atris, Dustil and Mekel SHOULD NOT be in KotOR III, because their fates do not depend on the gender/alignment of the PC.

If characters like that don’t appear, then we can decide what happened to them, so our role-playing choices are still respected. For example, with Juhani, you can assume that:

a) She died on Katarr.

b) She died by other means sometime after KotOR before the beginning of KotOR III (example: she could have been killed by Sion).

c) She is still in hiding. Bad example I know.

d) She’s one of the people who “switched off their lightsabers” after the Jedi Civil War and is off somewhere doing her own thing or whatever (like living on Cathar).

e) She’s gone on some self-imposed exile to truly redeem herself in her eyes, if she still felt she hadn’t.

f) She’s dead, because you killed her in KotOR.

g) Other.

This can only be done if characters like that do not appear at all in KotOR III.


Quote:
Originally Posted by khawk
If I would be able to make a choice between bringing back previous party members or being able to choose the gender, alignment, face etc. for Revan and the Exile, I would certainly choose the latter and I think most agree to that.
Umm…why not choose both? You don’t think I’m suggesting that characters from the previous KotOR’s should make up the bulk of the KotOR III party do you? What I’m saying is, characters like Bastila, HK-47, Mandalore, T3-M4, Atton and Visas should not be treated like they don’t exist in KotOR III.

You can’t have potentially important characters like that (who are from the previous games, and would give KotOR III that “sequel” feel) and plenty of new characters, because the cast would be too large, and just unrealistic and unaffordable.

It’s not really all that difficult from a size/time perspective to do either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by khawk
And, if everything else fails. There are three characters we have seen in Kotor I & II which fate isn't known:

1) Bolook
2) Deesra
3) Chodo Habat

You cannot kill them, there is no mentioning of their fate so they can be used in any way possible. Sure, they may have died when either Malak (Dantooine)or Nihilus (Telos) attacked but we don't know for sure.
I don’t see why Bolook, Deesra and Chodo Habat couldn’t be in KotOR III either, since they cannot be killed in KotOR (Bolook and Deesra) and TSL (Chodo Habat). What you could do is not have them appear (they died on Katarr if the Exile is set as LS), but have them only appear if the Exile is set as DS (as the heads of the new Jedi Order).

Who says there has to be the same amount of leaders of a new Jedi Order (LS Exile) if the Exile is set as DS? There doesn’t really. Three would do. Plus Disciple, if the Exile is set as a male.


And I agree with Jediphile. KotOR III could be a BIG failure (or just a big failure in a few people’s eyes) but we’ll never know unless the devs get a chance to make the game! It’s like if Team A were to play Team B in the final of a big tournament, and Team A thinks they’ll get their asses handed to them by Team B.

So what, they should just forfeit because of fear of failure? No, they go out there with the intention of winning, and see what happens. They could get hammered, but maybe they won’t. We’ll never know if KotOR III will be a success or not, if the game isn’t made, will we?

You have to take risks. You could die in a car accident, so what, you shouldn’t drive, or ever step foot in a car because of that? No. You take the risk and you drive or be a passenger in a car.

Anyway, I’ve got confidence that Obsidian can “clean up the mess”, if LA gives them a chance to.
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Old 03-10-2007, 07:32 AM   #132
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Well, I think I could reply that I didn't mean to have them as party members again, neither would I want them to be killed off and never heard from in Kotor III either.
And don't worry, as you might have noticed, I don't plan to all kill them off in my story either, you'll find out what I had in mind.
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Old 03-10-2007, 09:19 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by khawk
Now the other possibility I have read so far is that if the Exile would be DS, I believe Jediphile and The Architect are doing that, there would be a new Jedi Order with other replaceable characters who were hiding during the first jedi purge / Shadow war.

That option seams more likely IMO but it would make a lot of work for the developers I guess.
It was mostly a very simple solution to the problem, if the exile's companions were inappropriate on the basis of the exile being DS. Basically you could replace them all by alien jedi who spoke only alien languages and so would not require voice files, like ithorians, twi'leks (who don't speak basic), rodians, etc. Of course, there is no need for that if the devs are prepared to do alternate voices, but for cheap solution in production costs, it's quite feasible. Not really sure I would like the idea of ONLY alien jedi.

Quote:
Originally Posted by khawk
And, if everything else fails. There are three characters we have seen in Kotor I & II which fate isn't known:

1) Bolook
2) Deesra
3) Chodo Habat

You cannot kill them, there is no mentioning of their fate so they can be used in any way possible. Sure, they may have died when either Malak (Dantooine)or Nihilus (Telos) attacked but we don't know for sure.
Well, I'm less inclined to take any of them, partially because both Bolook and Deesra are alien-speaking twi'leks, and because having them back begins to suggest that no jedi ever died in Malak's bombardment of Dantooine - only the poor farmers, which would really just support their dislike of jedi in TSL. It never sat right with me that they let both Vrook, Zhar, and Dorak escape that. While I realise that Vandar says in KotOR that Malak's attack was not a complete surprise, I do think we should sacrifice a few named jedi to Malak's attack. I would do so with Bolook and Deesra. And I would probably do the same with Belaya and Yuthura Ban, since they are both killable in KotOR.

One jedi I really do want back, however, is Vima Sunrider. They cut both her and Nomi from the KotOR games due to legal considerations over the Sunrider name, but then they don't have to use it, since naming them Nomi and Vima would be enough. Nomi could be dead by now, since she would be at least around 70 years by now (the end of TSL is in 3951 BBY, and we first saw Nomi in 4000 BBY at which point she already had a daughter), but Vima is sorely missing in KotOR. Just have her back as Master Vima. I mean, Vima would be at least 49 by the end of TSL...


"It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built" - Kreia

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Old 03-12-2007, 03:20 PM   #134
adamqd
Jedi vs Sith
 
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I think at some point you have got to be a Jedi, its called Knights of the old republic, Not lords of the old republic or mercs of the old republic... I could go on, but it would be nice to mix it up a bit, maybe start as a Sith, with no Jedi background, I mean its a bit far fetched for a complete newb to destroy any force user, so some training is essential. I would like to see the story, feat gain, training etc unfold from a point of view other than that of the Jedi.


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