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Old 01-25-2007, 03:28 PM   #1
Titanius Anglesmith
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Endurance, not Health

I've been playing TSL recently, and this just popped into my head while I was engaged in some combat. Why not, in K3, change HP (health points) into EP (endurance points). I'm tired of how when you hit someone with a lightsaber (or they hit you), they just lose some HP but don't die.

I think HP should be changed into endurance, meaning that as you progress through a fight, you start to tire out and your (or your opponents) attacks and blocks become sloppy. Eventually, if your opponent loses enough endurance, then you would be able to penetrate his defense and slice him with one swing. This system would still keep the same point-and-click style that the other two KotORs have, but the fights would look much more realistic.

Now of course, the combat isn't the reason that I play KotOR, but it would be a welcome addition to KotOR III.


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Old 01-25-2007, 07:50 PM   #2
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I actually think that sounds like a great idea!



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Old 01-25-2007, 08:02 PM   #3
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I had an idea like this one a while ago, so I approve it. It would also be a good reason to change the animations so people can't get impaled 20 times in a fight and still win.


Let's kill ourselves.
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Old 01-26-2007, 12:28 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
I've been playing TSL recently, and this just popped into my head while I was engaged in some combat. Why not, in K3, change HP (health points) into EP (endurance points). I'm tired of how when you hit someone with a lightsaber (or they hit you), they just lose some HP but don't die.
Because it is based off of a PnP RPG system and that is how they work. Games like D&D (which D20 is based off of) is essentially a game of 'nics and cuts'. This kind of thing is part of the games core mechanics, and even if you called them Endurance points your complaints would still be there.

Remember if you instigated 'realistic damage' for the NPC's it would also apply to your PC, and dying the first time you get hit with a saber makes for a frustrating game to play.


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Old 01-26-2007, 02:47 AM   #5
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And its player vs CPU, Eagerweasel your idea sounds great and would be good in KOTOR III.
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Old 01-26-2007, 02:49 AM   #6
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So far, I've not seen ONE rpg that emphasizes that much on realistic combat.

In every game, you have to hit your enemy till his healthbar reaches zero, that's just the way it works. Even Dark Messiah that focuses soley on combat...

Also, what about blasters and force powers? do they drain endurance too?
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Old 01-26-2007, 10:53 AM   #7
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you'd have to balance it right, but i like this idea, as some fights i've noticed can descend into stalemates in certain situations, it would certainly be more realistic aswell.
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Old 01-26-2007, 11:03 AM   #8
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To me they are essentially the same system...

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Old 01-26-2007, 12:39 PM   #9
Jason Skywalker
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Sounds a good idea, but i have to agree with Prime and RedHawke. They seem the same system and it would apply to your PC and NPC's.
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Old 01-26-2007, 02:12 PM   #10
SilentScope001
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To me they are essentially the same system...
Of course! So, how about make a mod that replace Hit Points with...er..."Endurance Points!"

Realism FTW!
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Old 01-26-2007, 06:50 PM   #11
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It's largely changing a letter really isn't it. HP or EP. I get what you're saying, but it wont bother me however they label it.
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Old 01-27-2007, 05:02 AM   #12
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No it would be changing more than a letter.

Combat animations would always have parries and dodges, till someone gets "tired". Then a blow penetrates that opponent's defense.
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Old 01-27-2007, 07:32 AM   #13
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A simple and fair idea. I like it.
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Old 01-27-2007, 08:32 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Vaelastraz
No it would be changing more than a letter.

Combat animations would always have parries and dodges, till someone gets "tired". Then a blow penetrates that opponent's defense.
Oh yeah. Didn't read it closely enough hehe.

Yeah it's not a bad idea. I don't mind the way it is, but less blows from a lightsaber would add to the realism and allow for more dynamic battles similar to the films, instead of whack, ouch, whack, ouch. hehe
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Old 01-27-2007, 10:34 AM   #15
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Combat animations would always have parries and dodges, till someone gets "tired". Then a blow penetrates that opponent's defense.
Ah. But, of course, the blow will penerates that opponent's defense when the Endurance Points get to Zero correct? That is when the person gets so tired he says, "PLEASE! Give me a mintue to drink some water! Please, so that I can go and destroy you!11!" Then you attack him one more time, and you finally penerate that defense! W00t! (And of course, the way to decrease the Endurance Point is to hit the enemy's "Endurance"...aka his body, thereby causing him to lose EP...)

Nah, no real point to put it in 'tired' animation. You already have one, with the enemy (and you) grabbing their sholuder in an attempt to keep themselves alive. They are already tired. And..."tired" lightsaber attacks? Come on, I don't think the developers would have that much time to program that in...and only for stylism purposes!

So, really, it is just changing a letter.
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Old 01-27-2007, 12:10 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Ah. But, of course, the blow will penerates that opponent's defense when the Endurance Points get to Zero correct? That is when the person gets so tired he says, "PLEASE! Give me a mintue to drink some water! Please, so that I can go and destroy you!11!" Then you attack him one more time, and you finally penerate that defense! W00t! (And of course, the way to decrease the Endurance Point is to hit the enemy's "Endurance"...aka his body, thereby causing him to lose EP...)

Nah, no real point to put it in 'tired' animation. You already have one, with the enemy (and you) grabbing their sholuder in an attempt to keep themselves alive. They are already tired. And..."tired" lightsaber attacks? Come on, I don't think the developers would have that much time to program that in...and only for stylism purposes!

So, really, it is just changing a letter.
You've obviously never been in a sword or any type of weapon fight. When you get tired in the middle of a fight you don't ask for water, you keep on fighting. And it isn't when you get tired and need a nap that you would be killed, it would be when you're too worn out to move quickly enough to dodge a blow or when an opponent decides he should risk doing an attack that could kill you.

P.S. What's a mintue?


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Old 01-27-2007, 12:36 PM   #17
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You've obviously never been in a sword or any type of weapon fight. When you get tired in the middle of a fight you don't ask for water, you keep on fighting. And it isn't when you get tired and need a nap that you would be killed, it would be when you're too worn out to move quickly enough to dodge a blow or when an opponent decides he should risk doing an attack that could kill you.
I was using the art of scarcasm in an attempt to make my point. The current system looks fine. And what if we DON'T like sword fighting? What if we prefer using The Force, or using blasters?
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Old 01-27-2007, 03:42 PM   #18
Titanius Anglesmith
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Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Then you attack him one more time, and you finally penerate that defense! W00t! (And of course, the way to decrease the Endurance Point is to hit the enemy's "Endurance"...aka his body, thereby causing him to lose EP...)
Uh....no. The way to "penetrate" a person's defense is not to hit his body. If that were the case, there would be no point in this. To make him "tire out", just continue to make strikes until he loses all (or most) of his "endurance points" (that's just a name I came up with, of course it wouldn't have to be "endurance"). Also, the amount of points the person loses could still be defined by his defense and whatever defensive or will saves he makes. If a person makes a save, he would lose less. If he doesn't make a save, he loses more. I admit, in essence it's not that much different from the current system, but "looks" and "realism" is what I want improved.


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Old 01-28-2007, 05:30 AM   #19
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What's the point of having more realism than any other RPG in combat, when Kotor is clearly not focussed on combat...

Anyway do i get that right?

You attack and behind the scene, it is STILL calculated if you hit your opponent or not. In case you hit him, his endurance points drop by a certain amount, however the combat animations show you a parry or dodge.
Once that opponents Endurance points are 0, the combat animation shows you a successfull attack, which goes through defenses and is not blocked or dodged.

Ok. So, healing powers are now "endurance restorers" ? Same for medipacks?
What about force lightning, does that train endurance too? What about blasters?

Sorry, but to me it doesn't make sense.
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Old 01-28-2007, 05:54 AM   #20
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The idea sounds sort of good, even though it deviates from established RPG standards. But IMO, the system should be only be implemented aesthetically, i.e. the lightsaber never actually hits your enemy till the final blow - till which it is missing and parrying. Also, a "Rest" feature would allow EP healing. But an actual reduce in attack and defense value would most likely hinder the D20 system.

A second problem I see is, that if your endurance drops low, I don't know if a friendly Force Heal will help you. And a man with no endurance does not necessarily mean a man without health... So, Endurance can possibly be a third factor, figuring alongside Health and ForcePoints.

You will start each battle with 50% Endurance, and it will increase as you attack your enemy successfully. BUT, it will decrease if you use items,miss or get hit. Once your endurance reaches 100% (or 90-100) you will be able to release a powerful attack, which can be possible with a new class of Feats. This attack will drop your Endurance back down to 25-50. Losing endurance to 0, will make your character limp and your attacks will become sloppier. To avoid the battle become one-sided, there will be an Endurance-penalty, i.e. If you attack an Enemy thrice successively (regardless of Power Attack, Flurry or Crtical Strike) your Endurance will be decreased.

Endurance of 0-25 will dictate sloppy, inaccurate attacks, 25-50 will be poor-quality attacks, and 50-100 will be standard attacks.


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Old 01-28-2007, 06:02 AM   #21
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Yeah I'm thinking it should be mostly asthetic in terms of melee dueling.

The endurance thing could sort of work with blaster/lightning... blocking lightsaber style until you're nackered and get hit.... gets into over-complicated territory though.
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Old 01-28-2007, 06:44 AM   #22
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Hmm well it does sound like a good idea but, there is one thing about KotOR. Saber fights have a severe lack of uniquity in them. And if you were fight for longer just trying to get their endurance down, then get to the fleshy part, it might look and become just boring. I think KotOR could progress to using a completely real time combat system. While the turn based system makes KotOR recognizable and stand out against the others, in some ways like for adding an endurance system such as this a real time system I think would be necessary.

Although to compensate for the repetativity of the fights, more gore could be added, severed limbs etc.. but then your entering a different arena.

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Old 01-28-2007, 11:02 AM   #23
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What's the point of having more realism than any other RPG in combat, when Kotor is clearly not focussed on combat...
Quoted For Truth. Really, what's the whole point of making KOTOR realistic? If you really want it, just mod it in. It's not that hard.

And if you put this in, you nerf fist-fighters and pistol weilders. That is hardly fair.

Combat is already intense for me, and I do not want to have developers waste time making a better system when they can make a better story.
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Old 01-28-2007, 02:52 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Vaelastraz
What's the point of having more realism than any other RPG in combat, when Kotor is clearly not focussed on combat...
I just think after I get beheaded for the fifth time in ten minutes I get a bit bored.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaelastraz
Ok. So, healing powers are now "endurance restorers" ? Same for medipacks?
I believe that numerous times in the EU Force-users have used the Force to eliminate fatigue or for a short burst of energy. Medipacks could contain steroids or painkillers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaelastraz
What about force lightning, does that train endurance too? What about blasters?
Call me a sissy, but I imagine getting hit by lightning would hurt, and for Jedi it might take a bit of conscious effort to weaken the effects. As for blasters, dodging/deflecting them might be a bit tiring.

Keep in mind there could still be glancing blows/flesh wounds in the fights, just not stabs through the heart or beheadings.


Let's kill ourselves.

Last edited by Hallucination; 01-28-2007 at 03:14 PM. Reason: Less QQ more *pew*pew*
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Old 01-28-2007, 04:07 PM   #25
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Well, mind as well keep the whole HP thing, but change the animations. I mean, no point changing something obvious like HP to some weird s terms.
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Old 01-28-2007, 10:19 PM   #26
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The Endurance system, after I re-read over and over, actually can be used to make something more substantive, altough I dislike it.

Endurance of you: 100%.
Endurance of your Enemy: 100%.

If either side's Endurance level goes down to 50%, you suffer an increased chance of having Instant Death, as you get so tired.

So, in a middle of a battle=
The Ulitmate Jedi Padwan Who Is Destined to Blow up True Sith: 40%.
Random Old True Sith: 20%.

In this situation, the UJPWISDBTS has a chance of getting killed. Of course, the Random Old True Sith is more weaker than you. But it's the Random Old True Sith's turn.

Oops. Looks like the Random Old True Sith got lucky on his dice roll and decapiated you! Time to use your "Restart" Force Power!

Of course, I dislike this system, and for obivous reasons.

(EDIT: Oh, and please forgive me if this turns out to be nothing more than making a straw-man's argument. I really was thinking that could very well be a possible idea for the Endurance System, making it more different from HPs, which I see that you are getting at.)
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Old 01-28-2007, 11:42 PM   #27
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I'd just be happy if all misses showed a blocked/doged animation. That's an animation issue not an D20 issue. Lightsabers can make contact without killing, but I bet it burns like heck.

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Old 01-29-2007, 01:46 AM   #28
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Basically, your "life" needs to slowly decrease as you fight and hit, but you don't actually hit them in the animation until they are dead. Fairly simple, and a good idea to make the fights look more like real SW fights. Blasters and force powers would still work the same.
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Old 01-30-2007, 08:47 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister Chief
Basically, your "life" needs to slowly decrease as you fight and hit, but you don't actually hit them in the animation until they are dead. Fairly simple, and a good idea to make the fights look more like real SW fights. Blasters and force powers would still work the same.
Of course that if the Force Powers and Blasters would work directly against HP, then they would have to be weaker, otherwise, it wouldnt be fair.
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Old 01-30-2007, 09:45 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Vaelastraz
No it would be changing more than a letter.

Combat animations would always have parries and dodges, till someone gets "tired". Then a blow penetrates that opponent's defense.
That's already how it works in d20 Star Wars tabletop. There are no hit points as in d20 D&D, but instead there is Vitality and Wounds. Vitality builds just as hit points do in D&D, while Wounds is always the same as your Constitution, and basically taking damage or using force powers drain Vitality until there is nothing left. Usually you cannot use force powers without Vitality (though there are feats to let you drain from Wounds instead). Damage is done to Wounds only if Vitality is drained, or if a critical hit is rolled. When a character has no Vitality left, he is exhausted, but there is little consequence of that. If a character's Wounds value is gone, however, he dies.

Don't ask me why it wasn't implemented like that in the CRPG, though. After all, it would have been very easy to do. I still think it's a very unrealistic system, though. Not that I want complete realism in any RPG or CRPG, but the d20 way of doing it always seemed so stupid and silly to me that it verged on insult... Previous editions of D&D were no better, though.


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Old 01-30-2007, 11:33 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Of course! So, how about make a mod that replace Hit Points with...er..."Endurance Points!"

Realism FTW!
But I don't think endurace points is any more realistic. tiring someone out is usually not how a melee fight is won.

But more importantly, sometimes gameplay considerations have to be taken above realism.

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Old 01-30-2007, 04:14 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Prime
tiring someone out is usually not how a melee fight is won.
True, but neither is slicing someone in the head 20 times with a lightsaber.


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Old 01-30-2007, 05:01 PM   #33
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Sure it is!

Look at all thoe fights in YouTube!

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Old 01-30-2007, 07:12 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Jediphile
That's already how it works in d20 Star Wars tabletop. There are no hit points as in d20 D&D, but instead there is Vitality and Wounds.
Well, its essentially replacing the -10 HP to death thing. Its also in one of the alternative rules suggestion in D&D.

Well technically you can do it like WhiteWolf, where every damage you take reduces your performance. But StarWars now is essentially a D20 system, so is kotor. So basically, don't change anything that is not too broken. Instead spend more time on improving the storyline and gameplay.
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Old 01-30-2007, 10:05 PM   #35
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All that needs to happen is the animation be fixed. A hit will still take down health, but would be shown with a block or perhaps a small hit. A miss is the character dodging completley, while the only time a LS actual hits in the animation is when you kill your opponent. More animations the better.

Blasters and force powers would still take down health the same.
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Old 01-30-2007, 10:24 PM   #36
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Actually, I like hit animations when I actually hit the person. It's intensly painful to be hit by a sword, and I like it to see it.

Besides, why should lightsabers be considered "instant-kill"?
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Old 01-30-2007, 10:39 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Actually, I like hit animations when I actually hit the person. It's intensly painful to be hit by a sword, and I like it to see it.

Besides, why should lightsabers be considered "instant-kill"?
Because they go through anything... Obi Wan is taken down and out of the fight by just two glancing blows from Dooku. The whole point of Lightsabers is how lethal they are unless someone is wearing cortosis weave armour.



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Old 01-31-2007, 12:06 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by SilentScope001

Besides, why should lightsabers be considered "instant-kill"?
Because they are....... If it can cut through 3 inches of battleship door, I am pretty sure that getting hit by one is going to do more than hurt. The only time that somone gets hit by one in the movies and lives, they lose a hand, etc... Obi wan survived because I don't think Count Dooku was trying to kill him, or he was trying to kill him slowly.
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Old 01-31-2007, 02:56 PM   #39
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This arguement is far older than any computer game. This goes all the way back to D&D "Basic / Expert" editions. I remember a guy who played D&D a couple times and quit due to the simple fact he had hit a villian with a dagger over 40 times before managing to kill it lol. The fact of the matter is this, you the gamer have to realise that "hit points" are not just how much damage you can take, it is the overall ability of your characters ability to soak damage, dodge, feint, etc etc etc during battle. I doubt that this game mechanic will ever be changed in the near future, if its not broke dont fix it.

Edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister Chief
Obi wan survived because I don't think Count Dooku was trying to kill him, or he was trying to kill him slowly.
Refer to my above post.. lets take a look at Obi Wans "hit points".. sure a lightsaber can be an instakill weapon, however if we look at it from game mechanics in terms of "hit points" Obi Wan may have had enough combat training to avoid the majority of the swing. Hence why he was only wounded and not killed. Remember combat is not simply saying "ok take a swing at me and see if you hit... ok now my turn to swing at you".. its supposed to be a measure of someones abilities. Lets look at some real life history here, how about warriors on the battlefield in 300 AD? If they survived it was due to skill, luck, ability to dodge, forsee what their oppenent was doing with his blade, take advantage of openings... (all a measure of "hit points").

Last edited by RedHawke; 02-01-2007 at 01:09 AM. Reason: Combining double post... again. No more DwDM ok?
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Old 01-31-2007, 03:12 PM   #40
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True enough, but hit points or whatever name you choose to give them still lead to really stupid situations. For example, there is no way a highly experienced warrior like Boromir (from "The Lord of the Rings") could have been killed by three measely arrows in D&D, as he indeed was in the movie. I'd much rather have a system where high experience makes it exceedingly unlikely that you'll take damage at all, but where a single perfect hit can still kill you. After all, no 10th-level D&D fighter is going to be scared by a single, lowly orc with a bow, which doesn't exactly do much to suspend disbelief, I fear. I feel the argument is even more relevant in CRPGs, where you can just reload if things go bad. It's what we all do anyway...


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