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Old 01-26-2007, 01:13 PM   #1
Sno0ze
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KotOR 2 and 3.

Ok first of all I wanna say something about KotOR 3 in regards to who may be developing it. I've been wondering why everyone is voting for Bioware to do it?? I mean sure they made a good game, but I think it's the same as always, people get a hit game, then when a sequel is made by a different company or even in some instances the same company but they say it's never as good. Dunno if thats half of it or all of it.

People seem to have a down on Obsidian after all the cut content, well think of it this way, there could have been or maybe is an abundance of cut content for KotOR 1 and nobody knows about it (Just cause you can't find it on the disc doesn't mean it isn't there ) And to add to that farther, even without the cut content "issue", there seems to be a general consensus that the overall storyline to KotOR 2 was just poor. ?? Did I just type that?? Yeah, shocking thing to say huh?

Obsidian made a brilliant game, and for me personally and yes I'm aware that at the end of the day it all comes down to everyones opinion and neither is necessarily right nor wrong... but I thought KotOR 2 was the best. It can't be denied that the storyline was much much deeper and in a way more intellectually interesting than the first. Of course KotOR 1 had the big mystery of the Star Forge and it turning out that you are actually Revan but nothing as ominous and as hmm.. whats the word.. "adult". Hey I'm saying that and I'm just 16! Use of vocabulary and ways the English language can be used that were shown in KotOR 2 frankly I thought were brilliant. Even if it didn't give direct examples, it gave insight.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing the storylines over vocabularly and grammar, but it's just one of many things that adds to the feel of the game. I find it rather unusual how people have reacted to KotOR 2's ending. I've seen people say "it was left unfinished", well funny they should say that, because if you notice, nearly every second installment of any trilogy be it a play, game or film is usually presented in that way for effect, so you want more, it keeps you interest and from a business point of view, it's gonna keep you pumping in the quarters so to speak. So wether they did that for traditional reasons or just for the sheer hell of cutting the content I don't know, but I have an idea on which has the higher probability.

There is also the possibility they ran out of money and oh various other reasons, but I very much doubt it would be in any way financial, most believe it was the time factor which is yet another probability. The characters in KotOR 2 were much more sophisticated and if ya want me to blatantly say it, cleverer There was also a great deal more emphasis and information given to the Force in KotOR 2 which has not been done in any other Star Wars game. So you can see almost a growth in the way it was done. Simply put, far more sophisticated. The horror's of war, losing a connection to the Force, to life, and leaving a wound, echo's, even the names of some of the battles!

I saw a thread on here about more horror related content for KotOR 3, well I give that two thumbs up. I saw someone say they didn't think horror belonged in Star Wars. Why? Because the films were PG rated? Nah, it does belong there, when your bringing such things to a story, the diversity and dramma that KotOR 2 had, it makes it all the more special. Having horror flicks of when the Exile gave the command to fire the Mass Shadow Generator, the bodies of the Mandalorians and Jedi crushed by Malachor's gravity, hearing a high pitched supernatural scream..... just shouts yes to me.

Anyway I think this is long enough lol. I'll just finish up by saying basically I think Obsidian weren't given even close to their due for KotOR 2 and KotOR 2 in itself was underrated. Thanks for reading this long post hehe.

~Sno0ze

P.S - Not naming anyone at these forums for saying any of the things mentioned, this is the first time I've been on these forums really, everything I've heard has been from other ones.



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Old 01-26-2007, 02:10 PM   #2
SilentScope001
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Better off if you put your post in the TSL versus KOTOR argument/topic in "Telos Station", since it is concerned more with TSL rather than K3. I myself believe K3 will be made by Obisidan by default, but you never know. Prehaps a third company will take up the reigns?

Regardless, I'll repeat what I say before. It's up to your opinon and your personality on what game you love. I love TSL, but TSL has faults. I just ignore them, but others may not. Both games are excellent, but it's all down to personal prefence.
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Old 01-26-2007, 04:50 PM   #3
Titanius Anglesmith
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This would fit better in Telos Tourist Bureau, and there is already another TSL vs. KotOR thread. The search function is your friend.

I'm also in the minority that thinks TSL is better than KotOR, and I think K3 should and will be made by Obsidian.


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Old 01-26-2007, 06:47 PM   #4
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I can't decide really what game is better, KOTOR is more complete and flowing, which I feel is very important in this game. I also like the side-quests for your characters that wasn't really in TSL, if a little convinient (wow you meet EVERYONE in just a couple of planets...lol).
What was added in TSL was really great though, and if it didn't have so many holes in the game, the plot would have been much deeper and more involving. If they had more time, Obsidian wold have out-done Bioware (props to them for doing most of the creating of course hehe)
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Old 01-26-2007, 10:54 PM   #5
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Yep, seems a little more TSL related than K3 related, I think, but Snooze, if you were meaning to make it more K3 focused, let me know.

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Old 01-27-2007, 05:00 AM   #6
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In my opinion Bioware just did a better job. They created the Kotor game from scratch - I don't think I've ever seen a D&D based RPG with cool 3D fighting animations and 3rd person before.

Obsidian did merely improve the already existing basis. Better HUD, a few more combat animations, a somewhat polished graphic. They even went as far as taking to planets from Kotor as well, they didn't bother to create new ones.

Don't get me wrong, almost all improvements made by Obsidian are good ideas and make sense, but they are not more than improvements. Obsidian didn't show off anything unique in their programming.

Apart from story writing perhaps, I think Bioware is the more capable of the 2.
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Old 01-27-2007, 08:44 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaelastraz
In my opinion Bioware just did a better job. They created the Kotor game from scratch - I don't think I've ever seen a D&D based RPG with cool 3D fighting animations and 3rd person before.

Obsidian did merely improve the already existing basis. Better HUD, a few more combat animations, a somewhat polished graphic. They even went as far as taking to planets from Kotor as well, they didn't bother to create new ones.

Don't get me wrong, almost all improvements made by Obsidian are good ideas and make sense, but they are not more than improvements. Obsidian didn't show off anything unique in their programming.

Apart from story writing perhaps, I think Bioware is the more capable of the 2.
But in terms of making the third....?

I vote for Obsidian.
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Old 01-27-2007, 03:47 PM   #8
Titanius Anglesmith
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaelastraz
In my opinion Bioware just did a better job. They created the Kotor game from scratch - I don't think I've ever seen a D&D based RPG with cool 3D fighting animations and 3rd person before.

Obsidian did merely improve the already existing basis. Better HUD, a few more combat animations, a somewhat polished graphic. They even went as far as taking to planets from Kotor as well, they didn't bother to create new ones.

Don't get me wrong, almost all improvements made by Obsidian are good ideas and make sense, but they are not more than improvements. Obsidian didn't show off anything unique in their programming.

Apart from story writing perhaps, I think Bioware is the more capable of the 2.
"Didn't show off anything unique"? Have you ever seen another Star Wars story like the one in TSL? Actually, I can answer that. No, you haven't. I know that because there is no other story like it. It was completely unique (and drew me in a lot more easily than the generic story in K1) and very interesting.


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Old 01-27-2007, 05:44 PM   #9
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Sorry if this wasn't posted in the right place exactly peeps. I will say one thing tho, I prefer posting an entirely new thread compared to one thats been going for a month, your voice doesn't get heard as much I don't think =) But anyway yeah, this might sound a bit biast but.. Go EagerWeasel! For me I think TSL had that superior edge in storyline over KotOR 1. Unfortunately all I can do is reiterate what I said last time just more sophisticated. And as far as the story in TSL goes, I can't see many holes. I think sometimes what people are doing with this is thinking whats logical and comparing it to what TSL actually states, so that doesn't necessarily mean it is flawed in some way. Could be just their interpretation thats flawed. (Not gettin hostile on ya Henz ^^)

~Sno0ze



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Old 01-28-2007, 05:33 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
"Didn't show off anything unique"? Have you ever seen another Star Wars story like the one in TSL? Actually, I can answer that. No, you haven't. I know that because there is no other story like it. It was completely unique (and drew me in a lot more easily than the generic story in K1) and very interesting.
That's why I said "apart from story writing".

I do NOT want a Kotor III that is essentially Kotor II with just a new story. There's definitly more than story writing, if you're developing a game.
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Old 01-28-2007, 05:54 AM   #11
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SO IN TERMS OF WHO SHOULD MAKE KOTORIII....?

lol

I'll go for Obsidian because they've proved themselves more than capable of adding to this game series.
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Old 01-28-2007, 06:37 AM   #12
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Well I completely agree Henz, Obsidian all the way.


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Old 01-28-2007, 07:56 AM   #13
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Okay...time for the Ztalker to jump in

If you look at the technical aspect, Obsidian did a FAR better job. The whole influence system, the graphics, the Jedo Robes (Imo, superb looks) and bosses; They all rock.

But not all their ideas went that well. For example, the random loot generator that is broken. There are several high-end items in the game, that you can never get because of that bug. Stupid? Yes.
Then the cut content. If someone would play TSL for the first time, the gameplay experience would suck balls.

Kotor 1 on the other hand, didn't bring as much change to the traditional D&D gameplay as TSL did. But it's story was far, FAR more refined and perfectioned. The cut-game content didn't disturb the gameplay, and the game felt complete, whereas TSL didn't feel that way.

And now @ Topic:
For me, it's a difficult choice:
Story (Bioware) vs Gameplay (Obsidian)
Imo, if Obsidian would've had the time to implement all their features and content, TSl would pwn Kotor 1 every day. And that's why I'd love to see K3 beiing made by Obsidian

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Old 01-28-2007, 09:17 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ztalker
Okay...time for the Ztalker to jump in

If you look at the technical aspect, Obsidian did a FAR better job. The whole influence system, the graphics, the Jedo Robes (Imo, superb looks) and bosses; They all rock.

But not all their ideas went that well. For example, the random loot generator that is broken. There are several high-end items in the game, that you can never get because of that bug. Stupid? Yes.
Then the cut content. If someone would play TSL for the first time, the gameplay experience would suck balls.

Kotor 1 on the other hand, didn't bring as much change to the traditional D&D gameplay as TSL did. But it's story was far, FAR more refined and perfectioned. The cut-game content didn't disturb the gameplay, and the game felt complete, whereas TSL didn't feel that way.
KotOR 2 isn't meant to make people feel "complete". It's meant to leave everyone at a loose end, just like The Empire Strikes Back did. KotOR 2 at the end, gave everything you needed. The whole way through the game, it's all really about Revan obviously, but it's not given as easy that, the game doesn't spoon feed you everything. People are forgetting, or not realizing that Revan and the Exile have some sort of link, and Kreia wanting to kill the Force was just rubbish, another deception.

It was all about drawing the Exile to her at Malachor V. So in saying that, the story wasn't about Kreia either. Kreia was trying to show the Exile what she needed to do, and that was to help Revan, that some threat was awaiting them all in the Unknown Regions. So..... whats so incomplete about that?!! Seriously this is starting to get annoying people saying this about the ending. What did the original content hold for the ending? Ok I'll tell you. A bigger fight scene at the end, where all your party members faced Kreia, apart from the droids.

Nothing more was really revealed. Even with the Exile and the wound in the Force, I can guaruntee that will come back in KotOR 3 and it will play a big part. Infact, I think the Exile kills the true Sith, not Revan, I think Revan will be at the edge of death when the Exile arrives. Revan isn't supposed to be the one and only hero in KotOR and he won't be.

~Sno0ze



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Old 01-28-2007, 10:32 AM   #15
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If you'd read, you would have seen I was referring to a huge amount of gameplay that was left out, instead of the story.

For example, the planet that was cut out, would force Bao-Dur to commit suiicide if I'm correct. Imo, that is not only a story element gone, but also a tachnical failure.

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Old 01-28-2007, 10:52 AM   #16
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Yeah I know Ztalker, I don't really know why I quoted your post lol It wasn't because I wanted to argue a point you made. More like, reading your post influenced me to say something, so it was a recognition of sorts lol.

If your talking about the droid planet, I think they had good reason for cutting that out. I mean look at it this way. In KotOR 1 every character has their own little background story in which you can interact with. You had Bastila's sick mother, Carth's son Dustil, Zaalbar's exile, Mission Vao's brother, Jolee's old friend Sunry. Now.. in KotOR 1 you weren't getting chased by the Sith being the last Jedi. So what I'm basically saying is, having that content restored I think would take the focus off the main point of KotOR 2, in KotOR 1 it was a little more laid back.

Even although Malak was still a threat and had to be stopped quickly, it doesn't really compare to KotOR 2. KotOR 2 did have some background story for the characters and most of which was in dialogue, the rest was for making your characters into Jedi, very quick and concise. I think it needed to be that way to keep the pace up in KotOR 2.

~Sno0ze


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Old 01-28-2007, 11:12 AM   #17
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People are forgetting, or not realizing that Revan and the Exile have some sort of link, and Kreia wanting to kill the Force was just rubbish, another deception.
But Kreia said that she decieved you only to make your stronger...strong enough to defeat her. She also said that once the training is complete, all shadows are gone.

Here is something you forget. Kreia wants to destroy the Force. You are a wound in the Force. You grow powerful by leeching the Force off others by killing them and by getting people around you...

And that is how Kreia would destroy the Force (In fact, it already had been done...by you). By you gaining more powerful, you would be able to steal more and more Force, while transmitting your echo far and wide. Echoes make it harder for others to hear the Force, and if nobody can hear it, the Force basically loses its infulence and "dies".

So, her main goal is to train you by giving you lessons, sending Atris, Nihlius and Sion to be killed off by you, and then finally goading you to kill her so that she can prove to herself that she created a Force User that is stronger than even her, her best student. Now that you are strong, and you stole the Force from all those people, you now grow more powerful, and able to steal even more Force.

So, basically, you are still doing Kreia's biddings, even after she's dead. However, Kreia believed she already destroyed the Force, since you are not connected to the Force, and is immune to its will. (She would have killed the galaxy actually to protect you, since you are more precious than you know, and what you have taught yourself must not be allowed to die) She is now content because she has indeed won.

I do doubt the Exile would be able to asborb enough Force to make everyone defean to it...The Exile would probralry be dead by 0 ABY but people use the Force then. But Kreia is at least sastified someone has listened to her.

Just wanted to clarify that point, because I feel few people make it. To me, it makes sense on how Kreia would blow up the Force and why she trained you.

Quote:
For example, the planet that was cut out, would force Bao-Dur to commit suiicide if I'm correct. Imo, that is not only a story element gone, but also a tachnical failure.
Incorrect. It is unknown if Bao-Dur would indeed die or live. The Droid Planet restoration team states that it will have Bao-Dur live...

Of course, the Droid Planet Restoration Team is now...dead. It is hard to come up with an origianl plot, since so little content was made. I don't see it as a techincal or story elemental failure. It was just a planet that was made, but I guess there was so little content that was made for it that they decided to cut it and use most of its puzzles for other areas.
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Old 01-28-2007, 02:22 PM   #18
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Yeah SilentScope, I know thats how it's said in the game, but I think it's a lie. I now see KotOR 2 as the bridge for KotOR 3. I know that wounds in the Force can exist etc, but I don't think that was the case with the Exile and I think Kreia knew that but the Jedi Council didn't. Kreia played a very important role for what's to come in KotOR 3. I think she lied and in a sense cooperated with what the Jedi thought to make it believable for the Exile. So with that, as you were saying, Kreia wanted to get the Exile as strong as she could be... to kill the Force? No.. I think it was to equip her for what is to come.

That story of Kreia wanting to kill the Force and making the Exile think she was endangering life was just a big decoy, a necessary one that will shape events in the years to come. Which means yes, I don't think Kreia is evil at all, she maybe was once but not in the time of the Exile. She made it seem that way to not allow the Exile to think in a different way, to realize that this was all for the benefit of destroying the True Sith that await in Unknown Regions. It was to make it simple and in a way typical.

So ya kinda misinterperated what I was saying, but hey this is all just my opinion. However as you can see, I'm not taking what Kreia said at face value nor the message the rest of the game was giving. Another thing is, I'm pretty sure Kreia either said this, but if she didn't I'm betting she would. I think Kreia said in response to the Exile saying something about why she wanted to kill the Force or along those lines, "There is no victory in such things". And if you think about it, there isn't. For one who is to remember such a victory and two, Kreia said herself she see's the Sith and the Jedi as what they are, pieces of a whole.

So really she's not hell bent on death and destruction like for instance Sion is.

~Sno0ze


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