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Old 01-31-2007, 04:04 PM   #1
DreadWizardDM
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**rant** TSL [spoilers]

Opening statement:
Does anoyone else think TSL is garbage compared to K1? TSL was not even half of what it could / should have been.

1. Poor storyline: geee I woke up in a kolto tank and have total amnesia.. at least in K1 you think your a republic soldier!

2. You never actually do find out what really happened at malachor V, all you manage to figure out is there was some battle there with a disaster.

3. The writing was horrible. I mean really.. you go through the whole game and dont have a clue as to who you are, you never really get to feel an identity about yourself.

4. Hello my name is "Exile". Nuff said.

5. The ending completely stunk, possibly one of the worst endings ive seen (with the exception of nwn2).. a comic strip with a lame voiceover? LOL!

6. In K1 when you first play you are blown away when you discover who you really are. In TSL you never have a sense of worth or value.. your just some dumb "exile".

7. It seems there have been TONS of stuff cut out from TSL due to whatever reasons that are hidden in the gamecode that would have made the game MUCH better.. hopeing the good people at TSL restoration project come through for us and make TSL what it should have been.

8. LS / DS .. it doesnt matter.. your nothing more than a "wound" in the force.. yeah that makes me want to wake up smiling in the morning!

9. Influence ... talk about glitchy!! If you want to influence people you better have a dozen save game slots going at once or a hint guide or ya may as well forget it.

10. Nihilus ??? Whats up with making him such a chump? The guy is the main dude on the game cover and hes a pushover? This guy kills PLANETS via the force and hes not even much of a challenge??? Its like saying spider man can kill galactus!!

Closing thoughts..
The game could have been a real winner and should have been. it would seem that the executives wanted a good release date and told the programmers to scrap a TON of material that would have made the game better. There are massive amounts of storyline and plot that are left out of the game, it also seems to have been poorly written. Pound for pound I rate this game a 4 out of 10. K1 was better written, better plots, better playability and just crushes TSL overall.

I hope that the amazingly talented and good people who are working on the TSL restoration project keep up the work and wish to thank them for all they are doing to make TSL a worthwhile and much better game. I only hope that K3 is done right the first time.

Mod note: Moved to Telos Tourist Bureau from Ahto since it's about KotOR2. And added spoiler warning to the thread title. ~M

Last edited by stoffe; 01-31-2007 at 07:22 PM.
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Old 01-31-2007, 05:21 PM   #2
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Indeed, but that's only because the developers were forced to confine themselves to a ridiculously shortened development period before release. That's why there are so many missing plots & pieces, and glitches.
I think K2 had the potential to blow K1 away, if they had just taken more time on it.

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Old 01-31-2007, 05:47 PM   #3
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First off Iím not being critical of your opinion, I just happen to disagree with much of what you wrote. I believe TSL is the superior game for much the same reasons you disliked it. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

1. I enjoyed the story line. Waking up and not knowing what is going on is part of the RPG experience. Iím playing Oblivion now and start off in a prison cell with no memory. While it is true in KOTOR you knew you were a soldier, in TSL you know you are a Jedi.

2. Again I disagree. By speaking to Bao-Dur you learn the cause of what happen at Malachor V.

3. I like an RPG to allow me to decide who the PC is, not tell me who my character is. In that I believe the developers did a better job in TSL, than in KOTOR. I usually play all game light side and enjoy the fact that the Exile is what you made him or her, unlike that former/current Sith Lord.

4. See 3 above

5. Again I liked the ending of TSL better. I enjoy playing the game rather than watching cut scenes. I consider part of the ending being your final conversation with Kreia. The knowledge she give to the fate of the planets visited and your companions, I found, a lot more fulfilling than another celebration. I wished they'd had that opion in KOTOR.

6. This one you are correct. KOTOR was better on the first play through, but to me TSL has the better replay value.

7. This upset me too, till other in here pointed out there were tons of things cut from KOTOR too.

8. In KOTOR light side dark side didnít matter either. The NPC followed you no matter what. At least in TSL it does make a little difference on what NPC you get and how they react to you.

9. I liked the influence. I also didnít find any bugs or flaws in it (other than the ability to gain extra influence over Kreia). TSL also allowed you to change you companions into Jedi.

10. The reason (I believe) Nihilus is so easy to kill is he tries to feed on the Exile who is a wound in the force.

I love both games and would give both 9 out of 10, being that there is no such thing as a 10.


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Old 01-31-2007, 06:00 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mimartin
I like an RPG to allow me to decide who the PC is, not tell me who my character is. In that I believe the developers did a better job in TSL, than in KOTOR. I usually play all game light side and enjoy the fact that the Exile is what you made him or her, unlike that former/current Sith Lord.
I couldn't have said it better myself. TSL gives you far greater control over who you want your PC to be. A definite nod to OE for this.


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Old 01-31-2007, 06:03 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DreadWizardDM
1. Poor storyline: geee I woke up in a kolto tank and have total amnesia.. at least in K1 you think your a republic soldier!
I liked the story, personally. I thought it took a darker road than KotOR I and, for the most part, it came off well for the game. True, the game (overall) is not as good as KotOR but that is mostly because of a sloppy ending section and the fact that it was a sequel - how can you top your own hype about a game?

You take up the role of another within the universe. The Exile was a person before you took control of him (a nice touch was to allow you to alter his past a little) whereas with Revan, you could forge your own identity (see comments below explaining this). I don't know which I prefer... I think both work in their own way - you obviously prefer the latter .

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreadWizardDM
2. You never actually do find out what really happened at malachor V, all you manage to figure out is there was some battle there with a disaster.
I think the entire history of Malachor V is pretty obvious... people throughout the game refer to it constantly as a battle. Obsidian made the mistake of locking some plot points behind influence checks - which is nice for replayability but unless you're like me and spend hours trying to extract every bit of information in one playthrough you'll miss out on Bao Dur's comments about the battle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreadWizardDM
3. The writing was horrible. I mean really.. you go through the whole game and dont have a clue as to who you are, you never really get to feel an identity about yourself.
Well, I never got that feeling from the game; like the first it had me hooked. Until Malachor V the game seemed to make perfect sense to me, sure there were one or two points where I thought something was a little odd but very rare is there a game that doesn't make me think this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreadWizardDM
6. In K1 when you first play you are blown away when you discover who you really are. In TSL you never have a sense of worth or value.. your just some dumb "exile".
I don't think a plot twist is necessarily essential to having a good plot. To be honest, looking back on it, the Revan plot twist was cool and fun for the first two playthroughs but if we're going to be given an empty slate at the beginning of the game, I don't want a designer coming along and saying, "Nope, that's not it at all. Your character was actually: foo bar." Not to say that the Revan plot isn't a great example of writing.

Edit: Damn! So many other people beat me to posting...
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Old 01-31-2007, 06:08 PM   #6
SilentScope001
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Not to mention that there were a lot more plot twists in TSL than there are in K1.

K1:
Plot Twist=You are Revan.

TSL:
Plot Twist=You cut yourself of the Force. The Jedi Council did nothing.
Plot Twist=Jedi Council are nothing more than cold bastards/cowards.
Plot Twist=Atris tried to kill you.
Plot Twist=You are the weakness to Darth Nihlius
Plot Twist=Kreia is actually a Sith Lord.
etc.
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Old 01-31-2007, 06:29 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Not to mention that there were a lot more plot twists in TSL than there are in K1.

K1:
Plot Twist=You are Revan.

TSL:
Plot Twist=You cut yourself of the Force. The Jedi Council did nothing.
Plot Twist=Jedi Council are nothing more than cold bastards/cowards.
Plot Twist=Atris tried to kill you.
Plot Twist=You are the weakness to Darth Nihlius
Plot Twist=Kreia is actually a Sith Lord.
etc.

I must agree with you: Plot twists arent a must to a good story, but all the Kotor II twists you mentioned, only the first is actually (a bit) surprising.

Kotor I has other twists, like Bastila turning to the Dark Side. Just because the whole Revan thing happens (and its obviously, the focus), it doesnt mean that there arent others.
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Old 01-31-2007, 07:15 PM   #8
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I do like everyones replies and input to be honest. So far there is no flaming which is also good. I guess the whole thing that really irks me is that TSL "COULD" have been soooooo much better than what it was. I blame that not on the programmers but on the executives of the respective companies who I feel rushed the product. If they would have only given the game design team another 3 to 6 months to get everything done we would have got a much better product.

If they ever do make a K3 I hope that it has a massive amount of continuing support, similiar to what the original nwn game had. The Devs would even post and answer feedback for people doing mods. At any rate if I were a billionaire this would not even be an issue because I would have bought the KOTOR rights from Lucas and hire the best developers money could buy and then..... heh... look out! **wishful thinking**
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Old 01-31-2007, 07:38 PM   #9
SilentScope001
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Quote:
I must agree with you: Plot twists arent a must to a good story, but all the Kotor II twists you mentioned, only the first is actually (a bit) surprising.
True, I guess, but there are twists in K2, a lot more twists, just not very built up or as suprising as in K1. It's a "quanity vs. quality" issue. I was thinking of adding the "Bastila fell to the dark side" twist, but it seemed a bit corny, and possibly being pretty issue to predict.

The twist that really got me was when playing DS, Kreia revealed that she actually didn't want the Jedi Masters to be killed, she merely wanted to convert them. I suppose most people can say they can predict that, but, at least for me, that was pretty shocking.
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Old 01-31-2007, 09:07 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DreadWizardDM
Does anoyone else think TSL is garbage compared to K1?
Nope. I found it far superior to KotOR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreadWizardDM
1. Poor storyline: geee I woke up in a kolto tank and have total amnesia.. at least in K1 you think your a republic soldier!
Kolto tanks and not-so-total amnesia are the determining factor in a game's storyline?

Heh, I'm surprised you could stand KotOR if you don't like amnesia.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreadWizardDM
2. You never actually do find out what really happened at malachor V, all you manage to figure out is there was some battle there with a disaster.
What's there to know? There was a battle, lots of people died, and your PC lost her connection to the Force because of it. The last part is thoroughly enough explained, and unless you're looking for the specific casualties and economic consequences of the battle, there's hardly anything more to say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreadWizardDM
you go through the whole game and dont have a clue as to who you are,
Just like in KotOR I, no?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreadWizardDM
you never really get to feel an identity about yourself.
Since it's a role-playing game (emphasis on the first part), that's really up to you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreadWizardDM
5. The ending completely stunk,
I've debated this issue what feels like hundreds of times...

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreadWizardDM
In K1 when you first play you are blown away when you discover who you really are.
Provided some of the all-too-obvious hints don't spoil it...

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreadWizardDM
In TSL you never have a sense of worth or value.. your just some dumb "exile".
People qualified enough to be generals and command whole fleets are unintelligent?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreadWizardDM
It seems there have been TONS of stuff cut out from TSL due to whatever reasons that are hidden in the gamecode that would have made the game MUCH better..
Are you aware of how much stuff was cut from KotOR I?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreadWizardDM
hopeing the good people at TSL restoration project come through for us and make TSL what it should have been.
Heh, I'll be quite interested in seeing the general fanboy reaction upon the release of the TSLRP. They'll be in for quite a shock.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreadWizardDM
8. LS / DS .. it doesnt matter..
Other than how it determines the stability of a galaxy-spanning nation and whether an entire planet full of Force-eating Sith stays intact, I guess not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreadWizardDM
9. Influence ... talk about glitchy!! If you want to influence people you better have a dozen save game slots going at once or a hint guide or ya may as well forget it.
A glitch is an error that was not intended to occur. I found there were more than enough influence opportunities, though, so it didn't bother me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreadWizardDM
K1 was better written, better plots, better playability and just crushes TSL overall.
After all this, some *specific* reasons for why TSL is so awful would be nice. You've basically said 'so-and-so sucks' without stating why.


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Old 01-31-2007, 09:40 PM   #11
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After all this, some *specific* reasons for why TSL is so awful would be nice. You've basically said 'so-and-so sucks' without stating why.
For the sake of argument (I love TSL, btw)...Here are reasons why TSL failed:

1. The Infulence system makes it harder to unlock content, especially from Kreia. Content from the Infulence System is needed to understand the story, but since you need to either make people very happy or make people very unhappy, you're going to need codes or guidebooks to help you navigate this complex system.

At least in K1, you just gain levels, and then you'll gain the content.

2. Random loot generator gives...random, all powerful loot. Looks good on paper, but it ridicioulsy unbalances the game, making it quite easy. It also looks ridicilous to gets 100 blasters all owned by Carth.

3. Upgrade system also makes uber-powerful munchkin sabers which cause for Nihlius to go down...as well as half the Traya academy with one poke. The game becomes too easy...

4. It complicates a very simple good versus evil Star Wars ethos. When whatever you do to a beggar ends up causing that beggar to suffer, you know this isn't really Star Wars. (EDIT: This is what I like most about TSL, but you know there are others who do not...)

5. Villians are subdivided into 4 main bosses (Kreia, Sion, Nihlius, and Atris). Kreia recieved most of the intention as a manlipuative (and very annoying) bastard, allowing for the other villians to be neglected. Sion and Nihlius especially, as they seem to be quite interesting.

6. Lame cutscene ending (compared to K1). On the other hand, there is no choice in the matter, but well...a better cutscene would suffice. Prehaps, for a DS, you basically see some new Sith people start training.

7. Too much philosphy and not much agreed-upon information. Everyone can agree that Revan is Revan, that Malak hates the Republic...etc. Few can agree how powerful The Exile is, and what Kreia's goals are.

I love TSL, and I do not believe the above complains I made or think these complaints matter...but they do exist.
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Old 02-01-2007, 02:30 AM   #12
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TSL's story is a lot better than KotOR's. The problem with it is that we never get to see it all, and some parts of it are told badly. For example, my own character has secrets from me as a player - that's not a very compelling basis for making the character mine. Every time I learn something about my own character, it's because of other people talking about the Exile and never because the Exile admits to or reveals anything. That's a big problem, because it interferes with my ability to identify with the character I'm supposed to be playing.

But other than that, the characters are generally very well written. Nihilus and Atris as both powerful and well-written characters. And Kreia is about the most strongly written character I've yet come across in a computer game. Sion is secondary, but it still a lot less cheesy than Malak was in KotOR. Honestly, just the thought of Malak laughing evilly in KotOR makes me cringe, and not in a good way...

The Exile's companions are also done well. The handmaiden is a powerful girl with a troubled history and serves as a strong basis for a classic love-trinangle between exile, Atris and herself. Visas was an odd combination of concern for the galaxy and utter ruthlessness in the pursuit of her goals - you're never quite certain which side she's on until you've confronted Nihilus. Atton hides big secrets from his past but also great potential. Bao-Dur is your silent warbuddy, who is weighed down by the sins of the past, yet is the only one the Exile can truly confide in. G0T0 is ruthlessness incarnate (which is probably the major reason why people dislike him so, other than that he's totally useless in a fight).

TSL would have rocked, but Obsidian was given less than a year to develop it and even had two months cut from that already laughably short development time. That they were able to produce a working game at all is a remarkable achievement in itself. But because the plot was cut, KotOR hangs better together. The confrontation with the masters is not given enough depth in TSL, and Malachor V is one, long, boring monster slash with little or no plot before you reach Traya. And the rush in the schedule often means that when the end film rolls, the player goes, "WTF?"


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Old 02-01-2007, 05:44 AM   #13
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See Pavlos, Emporer Devon and Jediphile's posts for a more argued side of wat I believe. Basically I prefer TSL to KotOR, I think its a superior more complex and darker game which has alot of mature story telling it is just as shame that a finished product didnt come out as it would have been a 10 outta 10 game! Despite this I still love the game and am eagerly anticipating the realease of TSLRP.



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Old 02-01-2007, 06:26 AM   #14
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Okay, everyone has the right to say what they want, so i'll go and 'tackle' your findings

1.Poor Storyline:
Ever tried playing the prologue? It explains MUCH more. Also, only if your influence is 100% with your party members, you'll get to hear the whole story.
spoiler:
Like Bao-Durs nightmares of Malachor, and his detailed description of what happend there


2.No conclusion:
Like I said at 1, you only get to hear the whole story if you're having 100% with your partymembers. To be exact:
spoiler:
EVERY single partymembers has some connection to Malachor, one way or another.


3.Writing:
Several dialogues weren't well-chosen, I have to give you that. On the other side, there were far more 'superb' ones too compared to K1. Just ask HK about what 'Love' is. And the dialogues made perfectly clear who you are, actually. But that's my opinion.

4.What should he have said instead, then? Hello, I'm a 7000 year old Hutt lord? I find it perfectly fitting to open a conversation with 'Hello I'm (Playername).'

5.What ending? Mine was quit cool,
spoiler:
With an intense Boss-fight, several shocking revelations (Jango Fett) and all of Kreia's predictions, not to mention escaping a self-destructing planet


6.It would be a bit strange to have two Sith Lords being memory-wiped in less then ten years, right? I didn't find myself a 'dumb' Exile. I saw myself as a Uber bad-ass Jedi, reborn in the Force, etc etc...

7. Agreed, but this point can't be included here, since we are discussing about TSL as a whole product, ignoring the missing(?) parts.

8.It does matter, actually. You end up as Sith or Jedi. Quit a difference. That you happen to be a wound in the Force makes you actually stronger, or like Kreia said: "You have learned to live without the Force. The Galaxy isn't ready for that yet."

9. I got all my companions tell their backstory...even without an influence guide...strange...

10. Totally agreed...but there are several Mods around that spif him up a bit. And the TSL restoration project might give him some backstory as well...

About your conclusion...you know they removed a whole planet from Kotor 1 too, don't you? And a new party member (some guy with horns).

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Old 02-01-2007, 11:13 AM   #15
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I think there's a poll already. K1 vs K2.

Anyway, how can someone argue that a certain story is better? It's all up to personal preference.
If someone believes, Kotor II's story was unique and innovative, I would disagree. Many concepts in Kotor II's story (Kreia's motive, Revan's "disappearing", Darth Nihilus, wounds in the force, destroying the force, etc) seemed lame and unfitting to me. One could argue, Kotor II's story is more complex. Ok, so what? The story is certainly rushed towards the end, and some explanations are unsatisfying to me.

There are a few key points in Kotor II that are very similar to Kotor I.
- you must fight the sith
- you must search for jedimasters (starmaps) in order to stop the sith/learn about yourself/get rid of that connection to Kreia

So where's the complexity? All that can be considered new and unique is Kreia, her intentions and motives. And those are just boring to me...
And of course there's Nihilus... some hate him, some like him. I think he could have been good, but he's just an empty shell. And if that's supposed to be like that, well, I'm dissappointed. A shallow character.

I really did enjoy Kotor II ( even though I prefer Kotor I), but there's no need to bash the Kotor I story, when Kotor II's story isn't all that good.
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Old 02-01-2007, 01:52 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZTalker
spoiler:
With an intense Boss-fight, several shocking revelations (Jango Fett) and all of Kreia's predictions, not to mention escaping a self-destructing planet
spoiler:
Is Kreia not the best fortune teller ever?!

I just noticed the thing about Jango in my last playthrough a few days ago. I forgot her exact words though.


I agree with pretty much all the stuff mimartin, Pavlos, ED, SS001, Jediphile, and ZTalker said, so I don't think I need to repeat it.


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Old 02-01-2007, 03:05 PM   #17
SilentScope001
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Quote:
spoiler:
I just noticed the thing about Jango in my last playthrough a few days ago. I forgot her exact words though.
spoiler:
"shell of an amoror upon a shell of a man, too easily slain by Jedi"...

Though I interpret it to be more of the creation of the Stormtroopers, only to be slain by a ton of Jedi. After all, the stormtroopers are clones...shells of a man, after all.
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Old 02-01-2007, 03:52 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
spoiler:
"shell of an amoror upon a shell of a man, too easily slain by Jedi"...

Though I interpret it to be more of the creation of the Stormtroopers, only to be slain by a ton of Jedi. After all, the stormtroopers are clones...shells of a man, after all.
spoiler:
Yes, but don't forget the context. Kreia's comment is a reply to the Exile asking about the future of the Mandalorians.

And Kreia says: "They will die a death that will last millennia, until all that remains is their code, their history, and in the end, the shell of their armor upon the shell of a man, too easily slain by Jedi."

Pretty clear to me that she's talking about the Mandalorians. Which would appear to be Jango. After all, which jedi killed the clonetroopers? They all seem to have disappeared by Luke's time.


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Old 02-01-2007, 04:29 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
spoiler:
"shell of an amoror upon a shell of a man, too easily slain by Jedi"...

Though I interpret it to be more of the creation of the Stormtroopers, only to be slain by a ton of Jedi. After all, the stormtroopers are clones...shells of a man, after all.
Stormtroopers arent clones. I take you're referring to Clone troopers?
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Old 02-01-2007, 05:06 PM   #20
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Stormtroopers arent clones. I take you're referring to Clone troopers?
What? You mean the EU has different names for the same unit? Bah! I always assume they are the same unit, since stormtroopers are (usually) recurited from clones. Hence, the Clone Wars (which, really, should be renamed to Droid Wars if it was all about us killing droids). Fine, Clone trooper.

To me, after the Kamino rebellion in BF2, it is implied that the Empire decided to use different cloning templates, as to prevent disloyalty. So, the Stormtroopers are still (to me) Clone Troopers. I think.

Quote:
spoiler:
Pretty clear to me that she's talking about the Mandalorians. Which would appear to be Jango. After all, which jedi killed the clonetroopers? They all seem to have disappeared by Luke's time.
spoiler:
There is some book out there that details the life of the Mandalorians race. In it, it talks about how the clone troopers are brought up using Mandalorians creed, speech, etc. Also note that the Clone Troopers use Jango's DNA, so they can techincally BE Mandalorians.

The clone troopers could either be killed by some of the suriviors of Order 66 (how else can they surivie? By TALKING?). Most likely by Yoda. And if I am correct that the Clone Troopers are still in existance, than Luke would have been able to kill one.

Does it even matter? We both believe that Kreia is an awesome predictor. That's it.
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Old 02-01-2007, 05:21 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by SilentScope001
What? You mean the EU has different names for the same unit? Bah! I always assume they are the same unit, since stormtroopers are (usually) recurited from clones. Hence, the Clone Wars (which, really, should be renamed to Droid Wars if it was all about us killing droids). Fine, Clone trooper.

To me, after the Kamino rebellion in BF2, it is implied that the Empire decided to use different cloning templates, as to prevent disloyalty. So, the Stormtroopers are still (to me) Clone Troopers. I think.
Well, it still took the Kaminoans ten years to create the clones, and it must have been prohibitively expensive. What's the point of that once you've established an empire and can just enforce conscription? Don't forget that Luke wanted to follow Biggs and become a starfighter pilot at the imperial academy. Neither of them are clones. And we know several other characters who were stormtroopers at one point or another, Kyle Katarn being one of them.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Kyle_Katarn

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Stormtrooper


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Old 02-01-2007, 05:47 PM   #22
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Well, it still took the Kaminoans ten years to create the clones, and it must have been prohibitively expensive. What's the point of that once you've established an empire and can just enforce conscription? Don't forget that Luke wanted to follow Biggs and become a starfighter pilot at the imperial academy. Neither of them are clones. And we know several other characters who were stormtroopers at one point or another, Kyle Katarn being one of them.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Kyle_Katarn

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Stormtrooper
I guess you said it yourself. Enforced conscription means that the troopers HATE you and are not loyal to the Empire. Clones canonically obey orders without question and hence is more dependable. I think the majority of Stormtroopers are Clone Troopers, though there is possibly some drafting going on. (In the article, it states that slowly, and slowly, Clone Troopers make up a minority of the whole Stromtroopers, but they do exist, and I can assume they are much more elitle than a regural Stromtrooper, if you trust what the 501st Divison person in "BF2" claims)

And if you are telling me it cost a ton of money, I don't think the Empire would care. If it can spend tons of credits on useless superweapons that explodes when a tailpipe gets hit, then it can spend money on clonetroopers.

Of course, Clone Troopers can 'easily be slain by Jedi', stating of course, that they can be eaisly slain. Not that they have been slain. And, more importantly, CTs can be killed by Yoda, and quite easily mind you, therefore, the properchy is there.

I don't want the properchy to refer to Jango Fett because, to me, that is not the point. What Kreia is stating is that the Mandalorians has declined SO MUCH that it is now merely cannon fooder to be shot and killed, used by the Empire. They are nothing more than tools and monsters, I believe Kreia is stating.
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Old 02-02-2007, 05:40 AM   #23
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Sorry to go off-topic, but I feel I should explain..

spoiler:
The predictions of Kreia could be interpreted differently. To be honest, I even thought she was talking about Darth Vader, since he was wearing Mandalorian armor as well (As seen in The Empre Strikes Back when Luke hits his shoulder on Bespin with only minor damage). I later saw it specificly was about the Mandalorian race, and cocluded it had to be Jango.
Why? What many people don't know is that Jango Fett was the leader of the scattered Mandalorians the time. Several posted links proof this.
After his death by Mace Windu, it took a long time to re-astablish the Mandalorian clans, which was eventually done by an (at the time) aged Boba Fett. So, according to several sources, a Jedi 'destroys' the last Mandalore, Jango Fett.
The clone reference is possible as well. If I remember correctly, the Clones were devestated by there betrayel and fought against the Storm Troopers right? At the time, the Clones were the last Remaining Mandalorians (Jango was already gone, and the rest of the clan was scattered or unknown of their legacy). If Darth Vader led that Stormtrooper army, and destroyed the Clones, it could also be connected to what Kreia said.
Nice to see a good discussion like this in the Telos Tourist bureau...


@DreadWizardDM & Topic:
As you can see, the end of Kotor 2 is very cool. The reactions this topic has brought is proof of that. Regarding another one of your 10 problems, this finishes another one as well:
Kotor 1 and 2 were pretty much about the Mandalorian war. And we get to know how that war (or the Mandalorian race) ends. And we get to be the witness of a prophecy that was placed 4000 years before the actual event. Cool, no?

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Old 02-02-2007, 11:06 AM   #24
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@DreadWizardDM & Topic:
As you can see, the end of Kotor 2 is very cool. The reactions this topic has brought is proof of that. Regarding another one of your 10 problems, this finishes another one as well:
Kotor 1 and 2 were pretty much about the Mandalorian war. And we get to know how that war (or the Mandalorian race) ends. And we get to be the witness of a prophecy that was placed 4000 years before the actual event. Cool, no?
Meh. If only I could agree completely. TSL was done after Episode II, so the prediction is pretty easy to make given that it refers to something Lucas has already established in a movie set millennia later.

And while Kreia's predictions are pretty good, I've always thought the originally planned endings were better, where your companions could end up being killed, possibly by each other. Particularly the HK-47 vs. G0T0 scene is missing, when you consider that it has since been established as canon (by the New Essential Guide to Driods).

But the real problem with the ending of TSL is that it's not told well enough - you really have to pay to a lot of attention to the most obscure comments in the plot. It actually hangs well together plotwise, but once you reach Dantooine to meet the masters, the game takes a huge, confusing turn to the left. A crying shame, really...


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Old 02-02-2007, 11:41 AM   #25
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Yeah..that's kinda true, to be honest

Although I like the end, it could have been better, like you said, seen the cut content with the big Jedi-battles. I'd like to see TSL as a whole product though, and until the TSLRP is done, and Team Gizka is done, we'll never be able to compare and conclude

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Old 02-02-2007, 03:22 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
And while Kreia's predictions are pretty good, I've always thought the originally planned endings were better, where your companions could end up being killed, possibly by each other.
Personally I'm glad this part was removed, it would have reminded me too much about the terrible ending scenes in Planescape:Torment. That kind of strict in-your-face railroading tends to annoy me more than it entertains me.

If it's all handled via cutscenes then the game takes characters you've spent many hours to build up and develop and just kills them off while you can't do a thing about it except watch it happen. It it lets you control them during the encounters it's no better since a fight you have no chance to win, where the outcome is already predetermined, is both pointless and annoying.

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Old 02-02-2007, 04:23 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
I guess you said it yourself. Enforced conscription means that the troopers HATE you and are not loyal to the Empire. Clones canonically obey orders without question and hence is more dependable. I think the majority of Stormtroopers are Clone Troopers, though there is possibly some drafting going on. (In the article, it states that slowly, and slowly, Clone Troopers make up a minority of the whole Stromtroopers, but they do exist, and I can assume they are much more elitle than a regural Stromtrooper, if you trust what the 501st Divison person in "BF2" claims).
No, they obey. Of course, they obey by fear, the Empire could well take revenge on the family of a suposed sotrmtrooper traitor.




Quote:
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Personally I'm glad this part was removed, it would have reminded me too much about the terrible ending scenes in Planescape:Torment. That kind of strict in-your-face railroading tends to annoy me more than it entertains me.

If it's all handled via cutscenes then the game takes characters you've spent many hours to build up and develop and just kills them off while you can't do a thing about it except watch it happen. It it lets you control them during the encounters it's no better since a fight you have no chance to win, where the outcome is already predetermined, is both pointless and annoying.
I dont think so. I mean, you dont even know what happens to your party. That's equally frustrating. BTW, you say you dont like seeing your friends (friends that took you several hours to improve their capabilities) dying, then I just cant imagine you seeing your party dying on Kotor I DS ending. And I really thinks that the same thing would happen on the second game: Your party killing themselves would just happy on a DS ending.
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Old 02-02-2007, 05:03 PM   #28
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I dont think so. I mean, you dont even know what happens to your party. That's equally frustrating. BTW, you say you dont like seeing your friends (friends that took you several hours to improve their capabilities) dying, then I just cant imagine you seeing your party dying on Kotor I DS ending. And I really thinks that the same thing would happen on the second game: Your party killing themselves would just happy on a DS ending.
Yes, your entire party goes -poof- once you reach Malachor. Sure, you get to see G0T0 and Mira again, but they come out of the blue, and you don't even get to see what becomes of them. The rest just all disappear into thin air

Besides, IIRC the companions fighting each other would occur, if the exile is DS and you have more influence with Visas or Disciple than with Handmaiden or Atton (depending on gender). For the female LS exile, Atton would fight Sion instead and possibly die (if he loses the fight), which is really quite moving. I mean, just check on this site and scroll down to read or hear it: http://tubertarian.com/kotor2missingcontent.php


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Old 02-02-2007, 07:08 PM   #29
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The influence system was sucky as a lot of what the idea built toward was removed i.e. The above menitoned party member/fights deaths. People may not be so happy with that idea now but there wouldn't have been a choice it it was in place on release. I think it makes the influence system and the plot stonger.
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Old 02-03-2007, 12:50 AM   #30
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Well, you can't contorl who actually lives and dies in that battle (Visas vs. Handmadien for instance). Sion vs. Atton battle might be tolerable, but not Visas vs. Handmadien [because I love both characters and would not wish to see either of them be killed off]. So, I can see stoffe's worry.


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Old 02-03-2007, 01:17 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by stoffe
Personally I'm glad this part was removed, it would have reminded me too much about the terrible ending scenes in Planescape:Torment. That kind of strict in-your-face railroading tends to annoy me more than it entertains me.

If it's all handled via cutscenes then the game takes characters you've spent many hours to build up and develop and just kills them off while you can't do a thing about it except watch it happen. It it lets you control them during the encounters it's no better since a fight you have no chance to win, where the outcome is already predetermined, is both pointless and annoying.
Agreed, that would have annoyed me as well. This is simply bad storytelling, and I am also glad Obsidian 'woke up' and pulled the NPC cutscenes from the end game in TSL.


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Old 02-03-2007, 04:49 AM   #32
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Agreed, that would have annoyed me as well. This is simply bad storytelling, and I am also glad Obsidian 'woke up' and pulled the NPC cutscenes from the end game in TSL.
Better than letting those characters simply vanish into thin air with no explanation whatsoever, as was then chosen instead?


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Old 02-03-2007, 05:42 AM   #33
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Dang....good arguments everywhere...

Maybe a mixture of those two type of endings is possible?
I recall a modder tried to make a 'after-game' content in which your party stands around you in the medbay after you are rescued from Malachor. That would be a perfect ending, without anoying casualties

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Old 02-03-2007, 10:11 AM   #34
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Better than letting those characters simply vanish into thin air with no explanation whatsoever, as was then chosen instead?
Their fates were revealed from the dialog with Kreia... good enough for me. It is also the better option for having a next installment as well.

Do I 'feel' the ending was 'rushed'? Yeah, a little, but the ending we got was a complete one (Quite a TESB feel to it as well).


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Old 02-03-2007, 10:33 AM   #35
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Better than letting those characters simply vanish into thin air with no explanation whatsoever, as was then chosen instead?
Not much better, but still marginally more preferable since it leaves the ending more open to your own interpretation and imagination as to what happened. Seeing your characters getting chopped to bits with a lightsaber in a cutscene leaves little room to imagine the outcome of the story more like you'd want it to end, in my opinion.

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Old 02-03-2007, 11:26 AM   #36
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The characters killing each other was only if you played DS. How them killing each other is so much worse than DS Revan killing them all (or most of them) in KotOR confuses me a bit to be honest...

As for the predictions, they are just that - predictions: vague clues that mean and say very little but are easily established as "true" after the fact. And naturally they say nothing about what become of your companions. Am I better off knowing that Mira will be killed many years from now? Not in my humble opinion - I'd much rather not know that, so that the fate of Mira (or any of the characters) is not set in stone, unless they are killed during the actual plot itself. Besides, Mira fate is questionable, and so she at least cannot appear in the next game. Why? Well, if the Exile was DS, then she was killed by Hanharr on Nar Shaddaa. If the Exile was LS, then she could instead die at Hanharr's hands on Malachor V. And if she does, you'll note that the Exile does not have the option to ask about her fate when Kreia makes predictions. So either way, Mira is in the same limbo as Atris - she could easily be alive or dead, and since that is the player's choice, they are unlikely to turn up in the next game (assuming there is one).


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Old 02-03-2007, 11:35 AM   #37
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Well, for the record I HATE that you HAVE TO kill Mision in k1... I mean it would be reasonable if there is a choice to just knock her out instead of killing her, she is a loyal little girl anyways. As for Jolee and Juhani, well... they start attacking first...

A for K2, well, I rather KNOW where the rest of the party goes than a few simple words from a dying decietful hag. Atton getting killed by Sion seems to be a befitting ending, as much as I love the character. I would leap up in joy to see stalker mike get killed though, but I assume there are actually fans of him also. It would hurt to see handmaiden and Visas kill off each other though, even as I am not a big fan of handmaiden, Visas is better.

But still, an ending of death is better than no ending. A "to be continued" type ending really SUCKS.
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Old 02-03-2007, 12:05 PM   #38
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I prefer TSL to KOTOR overall, answering the first post and I agree with those who support TSL. Anyway, with this little debate going on, I'll say my views.

@ PoiuyWired: I like and dislike the To Be Continued feel to films, games or anything. Cliffhangers make me want to find out what happens next. This is what I'm suffering with KOTOR III, the next Tomb Raider after Legend and the next Indiana Jones.

@ Jediphile: Mira might not be killed. Kreia could be wrong about the fate of the galaxy, although she isn't wrong about one thing that is in the Star Wars Saga, in the Prequel Trilogy. I myself would've liked some deaths in TSL, but then the game would become a bit too depressing for my liking.
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Old 02-03-2007, 12:10 PM   #39
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Prehaps the better idea would be to just to see a cutscene of you leaving everyone behind. Mira, Atton, everyone. Explain it by Kreia saying that you must battle her ALONE. Goto and HK will most likely hitch a ride via some other method, and the Monitor could safely be given by Bao-Dur to help explode the Malachor V. Everyone else is at Telos Academcy, rebuilding the Jedi/Sith. The Exile promises to come back after Malachor V goes "Boom!"...but he won't follow through his promises when he learn of Revan and the True Sith.

You know of their fates quite well, and the predictions become key in figuring out what happens after you leave your party members.


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Old 02-03-2007, 07:14 PM   #40
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Not much better, but still marginally more preferable since it leaves the ending more open to your own interpretation and imagination as to what happened. Seeing your characters getting chopped to bits with a lightsaber in a cutscene leaves little room to imagine the outcome of the story more like you'd want it to end, in my opinion.
Them turning on eachother (as Jediphile said) is only a DS outcome which makes sense as you were influencing them into a darker mindstate. I liked this idea. I wouldn't have been bothered if this was handled in cutscenes either as these are party members, not your PC. They shouldn't be totally controlled by you. That your choices in the game beforehand decides their outcome is enough control. To me the influence idea was left redundant by these cuts to alternate endings. The trust you built/destroyed didn't lead to anything.
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