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View Poll Results: Why are some people gay?
Born gay. 30 41.10%
By choice. 24 32.88%
None of the above 19 26.03%
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Thread: Why are some people gay?
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Old 04-25-2007, 05:08 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider AL
Secondly, you are categorically incorrect in saying that "you won't find a single homosexual" who notes and accepts this simple fact. There are in fact, many.
I stand corrected, since you obviously know of cases that contradict my statement.

There's a discussion about gay marriage/adoption that also covers the normality opinions in this thread.

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Old 04-25-2007, 08:50 PM   #42
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I stand corrected, since you obviously know of cases that contradict my statement.
You are correct!

I was waiting to spring my tales of amusing conversations with homosexual acquaintances in which both they and I laughed long at the absurd abnormality of their sexual preferences... and often, we then both laughed at the comparable absurdities inherent in my (socially normal) sexual preference!

I was further waiting to cite prominent homosexual activists such as Camilla Paglia noted for her vocal opinions on the subject of Homosexuality as a challenge to normality... and Peter Tatchell, who often criticises what he calls "the masculine norm" and persistently condemns many homosexual efforts to "normalise" their particular preferences. (Campaigns that seek to make the military accept gay people, etc.)

But by pre-emptively conceding the point, you have foiled my carefully laid plans! Darn you to heck!

Quote:
There's a discussion about gay marriage/adoption that also covers the normality opinions in this thread.
Looks like an interesting debate, but I for one will not take part. (Due to my desire not to allow any new debating forums to steal away my already painfully rare snippets of free time.)

But my input is hardly necessary anyway, as ET, Eagle and Achilles have every single base firmly covered. The facts are in no danger of being obscured.


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Old 04-26-2007, 01:11 PM   #43
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I believe its a choice and normal I mean can any one person define what the normal life style is because I can't.


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Old 04-29-2007, 02:24 AM   #44
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Why would it be a choice if its so frowned upon on society? I mean, does one person wake up one day and say to themselves "hey, i want everyone to hate me for being different, i want to have boyfriend and walk around and hang all over him as everyone around me gives me strange looks"

Ask yourself. Why would anyone want to impose discrimination on oneself? Its not a choice. The only choice that homosexuals make is whether to come out or not and to accept it themselves.
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Old 04-29-2007, 09:42 PM   #45
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Some people consider gayness [resisting urge... to... LAUGH!] a disease




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Old 05-11-2007, 10:17 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by DarthSquee
Why would it be a choice if its so frowned upon on society? I mean, does one person wake up one day and say to themselves "hey, i want everyone to hate me for being different, i want to have boyfriend and walk around and hang all over him as everyone around me gives me strange looks"
It's more a case that they see something or experiance something or something and it's something they enjoy, it feels right to them, ect. Kind of like a friend of mine who didn't care about religion, had no thoughts about it, until he tried it.

You said about homosexuality being frowned upon by society, well let's look at something that most definetly is, pedophillia. Same thing, people have not really thought about it, they are introduced to child porn by, say, someone posting it on a board, find it's something that they like and they go for it.
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Old 05-12-2007, 10:44 AM   #47
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This thread is not about pedophila, its about homosexuality. They are completely different subjects. Just because someone is gay does not mean they are a pedophile. Most pedophiles have lived straight lives prior to their crime.
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Old 05-12-2007, 10:51 AM   #48
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What I mean is it's the same thing. People are introduced to something, even something that society frowns upon, find that it's something that appeals to them and rhey go for it. That applies to child porn, something that is wrong, as well as homosexuality. Now as far as that goes I don't get why people are so down on it. So and so is gay. So?
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Old 05-12-2007, 11:04 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by reven0123
I believe its a choice and normal I mean can any one person define what the normal life style is because I can't.
A choice? Try feeling attracted to the same sex for a day...
It it certainly not possible for me.

Also, isn't "normal" what the majority does? Then being gay is not normal, but that doesn't mean that it is wrong.
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Old 05-12-2007, 07:12 PM   #50
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Hmm, how many Atheists are there in the world? Could it be said that Atheism is not normal because they are a minority? Something closer to home, how many people in the world like Star Wars? More than those who don't? Would those who don't be abnormal?
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Old 05-13-2007, 07:26 AM   #51
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Being atheistic is not "normal", just like it's not "normal" to be a starwars fan.
It's just not the social norm.

"normal" in a dictionary:
"Conforming with or constituting a norm or standard or level or type or social norm; not abnormal"

So neither starwars fans nor atheists nor gay people are normal, since their lifestyle is not the social norm.
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Old 05-14-2007, 07:36 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
Hmm, how many Atheists are there in the world? Could it be said that Atheism is not normal because they are a minority?
Depends on the country. In the US, we atheists are not "normal". We're abnormally free of delusions, for instance. We're abnormally rational when it comes to the issue of theism.

But in my country specifically, we are "normal", because atheism is the norm in the UK. We are the majority at around 66%, according to some estimates. It's normal to be atheistic in the UK.

Normality is not a virtue nor a vice, and has nothing to do with "good" or "bad".


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Old 05-14-2007, 07:42 PM   #53
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But this falls under the fallacy of Appeal to Popularity, just because everybody's doing it doesn't make it normal.
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Old 05-14-2007, 07:48 PM   #54
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hahah... Actually "everybody" doing something would indeed make it normal, Nancy.

Perhaps you should read through the definitions of logical fallacies a bit more studiously. Appeal to Pop. doesn't apply.


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Old 05-14-2007, 07:52 PM   #55
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An appeal to popularity, as the name suggests, occurs when the popularity of a thought, argument, or object is appealed to as evidence that such is valid or superior to others. A couple of examples:

The majority of people in the world is opposed to the war in Iraq
Therefore, the war in Iraq is unjust.
"News 8, where more Michiganders get their news than from any other station."
Most scientists believe evolution is true [see also Appeal to Authority].
It should be apparent why appealing to popularity is fallacious. Simply put, to err is human. To avoid mistakes consistently well one must be exceptional. Also, humans are social creatures, so often someone accepts something just to "fit in." However, fitting in or majority rule is irrelevant to the validity of a logic claim. 1+1=2, no matter how many people are persuaded to believe otherwise.


Therefore it applies.
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Old 05-14-2007, 07:59 PM   #56
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Uhhh... No, therefore it DOESN'T apply. Read it again, Nancy.

"An appeal to popularity, as the name suggests, occurs when the popularity of a thought, argument, or object is appealed to as evidence that such is valid or superior to others."

Nobody has stated that normal behaviour is "more valid" or "more superior" than abnormal behaviour, therefore it does not apply. QED. Accept it.


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Old 05-14-2007, 08:08 PM   #57
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You believe that Atheism is superior, to the point that you believe that people are not entitled to believe in religion.

By the way, what is the majority in, say, the Middle East? How does Atheism fare where the law is 'Islam or die'?
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Old 05-14-2007, 08:18 PM   #58
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You believe that Atheism is superior
I believe it to be a rational standpoint, and that rationalism is superior to irrational faith, yes.

But since I've also stated that atheism is NOT normal in many countries including the US, what are you accusing me of? An "appeal to UN-popularity"?

Once again, your assertion that I've perpetrated a logical fallacy is without basis. Just accept it.

Quote:
to the point that you believe that people are not entitled to believe in religion.
This is flatly false. I have stated many many times that people are entitled to be rational or irrational, theistic or atheistic as they please. And you know it well.

Your misrepresentations of other people's positions are totally fallacious and unhelpful, Nancy.

Quote:
By the way, what is the majority in, say, the Middle East? How does Atheism fare where the law is 'Islam or die'?
Why do you ask?


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Old 05-14-2007, 08:23 PM   #59
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Because clearly you cannot say that Atheism is the norm in, say, Saudi Arabia. You cannot go around there saying how superior it is to Islam and how...no, actually, don't let me stop you. Find out for yourself.
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Old 05-14-2007, 08:26 PM   #60
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Atheists are indeed even more seriously persecuted in some Islamic states than they are in the US, Nancy, you're correct on that point... but I still fail to see the relevance of this.


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Old 05-14-2007, 08:31 PM   #61
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The point is you cannot have one other person agree with you and call it rousing support. Just because the majority of people in one area are Atheist doesn't mean it's an accurate depiction, nor does it make it superior to religious belief or warrents Atheists condemning those who believe in religion.
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Old 05-14-2007, 08:34 PM   #62
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I absolutely agree. And since I've never claimed to have "rousing support", never claimed that atheism is superior to theism "because of it's popularity" and since I've never "condemned" any theists, I must ask again: What's the relevance of this?


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Old 05-14-2007, 08:40 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Spider AL
But in my country specifically, we are "normal", because atheism is the norm in the UK. We are the majority at around 66%, according to some estimates. It's normal to be atheistic in the UK.
And just looking back.

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Originally Posted by Spider AL
Your misrepresentations of other people's positions are totally fallacious and unhelpful, Nancy.
I had a great teacher.
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Old 05-14-2007, 08:44 PM   #64
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Yes, atheism is normal in the UK. What's your point? I never stated that "normal" is "superior".

Quote:
I had a great teacher.
So you admit that you ARE misrepresenting people's positions? Good. Now you should stop doing it.


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Old 05-14-2007, 08:55 PM   #65
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Ha, this reminds me of a scene from Spiderman.

"You're lucky I'm such a good sport, no intelligent person would go this far."
"You hear that? Spiderman just admitted he's an idiot! You all heard him!"

So, others arn't allowed to misrepresent people's positions? But you are? And don't try and deny it because you do.
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Old 05-14-2007, 08:59 PM   #66
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lol. Nancy, if you could find an example of me misrepresenting someone's position you would have done it by now. You can't and won't find such an example. I do not misrepresent people's positions the way you have.

When you have something relevant to say on this issue, I will respond to it. Until then, have a good evening.


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Old 05-14-2007, 09:13 PM   #67
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I seem to remember you doing a big song and dance over Jae's comments on the media showing names on coffins, portraying her as an emotional basketcase. I could dig it up if you like.

I'd prefer if you all would not dig up something like that. Thank you. --Jae

Last edited by Jae Onasi; 05-15-2007 at 05:11 PM.
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Old 05-14-2007, 09:20 PM   #68
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I was convinced while I was reading those last several posts that this thread was about atheism, but then I checked and sure enough this is about homosexuality.

Back on Topic, please.



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Old 05-15-2007, 10:53 AM   #69
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Why are some people gay? Drawing on all my knowledge and experiance of homosexuality I would say it's a matter of choice. Someone sees something or are introduced to something, it appeals to them and they go for it. Someone is very much in love with a member of the same sex. Someone is far more comfortable with members of the same sex. Those would be the most common examples that spring to mind. That's not to say that there isn't some gay gene or people arn't born gay. I haven't however seen or heard of someone who is gay and doesn't want to be, and because of that I chalk it down to it being choice, or dominently choice.
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Old 05-16-2007, 01:26 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
I haven't however seen or heard of someone who is gay and doesn't want to be, and because of that I chalk it down to it being choice, or dominently choice.
Well of course there are many many gay people who don't want to be gay, either because of the social stigma attached to homosexuality, or because of misguided religious concerns.

We've all heard of the silly church-sponsored programs that claim to be able to "cure" homosexuals of their evil ways! These programs would never survive if there weren't a steady influx of poor self-loathing homosexual people to fill their coffers with cash.

So since you've based your opinion on the nature of homosexuality on an erroneous belief that all homosexuals want to be homosexual, perhaps you should now re-evaluate that opinion.


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Old 05-16-2007, 07:20 PM   #71
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This is based on my knowledge and experiance. I don't portray myself to be some all knowing being, and if you look you will see that I have left the idea open that homosexuality is not a choice.
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Old 05-17-2007, 11:30 AM   #72
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if you look you will see that I have left the idea open that homosexuality is not a choice.
That's not relevant to what I was saying Nancy.

You stated that because you had never heard of any homosexuals who didn't want to be gay, you believed homosexuality to be (predominantly) a matter of choice.

And now that I have informed you (in post #70) of the obvious fact that there are many homosexual people who wish they were straight, once again, I think it's time you re-evaluated that opinion. Because the whole REASON you had for holding that opinion is now gone.


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Old 05-17-2007, 11:33 AM   #73
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Back on topic please.

Some people are gay because it is a matter of choice. Aside from that I'd really need to refer to an expert on homosexuality.
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Old 05-17-2007, 11:42 AM   #74
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The past five posts have ALL been on topic, Nancy.

Quote:
Some people are gay because it is a matter of choice.
This is very unclear. What are you trying to say? Are you trying to say that homosexuality IS a matter of choice, or are you trying to say that only SOME people make a conscious choice to be homosexual?..

Or are you saying that... Well what are you saying?


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Old 05-17-2007, 11:49 AM   #75
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To the best of my knowledge homosexuality is a choice. Not being an expert on it that is how I see it. Some people, as in 'Why are some people gay?', are so because it is a choice. If there's evidence to the contrary I've yet to see it.
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Old 05-17-2007, 11:54 AM   #76
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To the best of my knowledge homosexuality is a choice. Not being an expert on it that is how I see it.
Expert or not, you must have some REASONS for believing that "homosexuality is a choice".

I've already pointed out that the only reason you've cited (you believed that no homosexuals want to be straight) was erroneous, so what other reasons do you have? Please enlighten us.


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Old 05-17-2007, 12:01 PM   #77
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Since you fail to comprehend what I explained I will lay it out step by step. Some sixteen year old teenager is on the Internet, on Google, looking up pornography. He's a teenager, hormones are raging, and he's bored with the stuff he has already and is looking for something new. He comes across one porn site, and porn sites being what they are they open up other porn sites and one leads to a small video of one giuy ****ing another guy up the ass. The teenager sees this and rather than being disgusted finds this is something that he enjoys, and so he may experiment on his own, he may seek out other men so he can experiance what he has seen. Can you grasp that at least or is it too much for you?
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Old 05-17-2007, 12:08 PM   #78
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Ahem. I can grasp your posts perfectly well, thank you Nancy.

The attraction the teenager feels in the hypothetical situation you describe... Does not necessarily involve "choice".

To choose is to decide. The teenager you're talking about finds that he is attracted to men. He has not consciously "chosen" to be attracted to men. So why are you talking about "choice" in this way?


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Old 05-17-2007, 12:12 PM   #79
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Obviously you are incapeable of understanding. Either that or you're trolling, one of the two.

He made a choice to seek out these experiances with other men based on what he found. How many ways does it have to be said?
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Old 05-17-2007, 12:17 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
Since you fail to comprehend what I explained I will lay it out step by step. Some sixteen year old teenager is on the Internet, on Google, looking up pornography. He's a teenager, hormones are raging, and he's bored with the stuff he has already and is looking for something new. He comes across one porn site, and porn sites being what they are they open up other porn sites and one leads to a small video of one giuy ****ing another guy up the ass. The teenager sees this and rather than being disgusted finds this is something that he enjoys, and so he may experiment on his own, he may seek out other men so he can experiance what he has seen. Can you grasp that at least or is it too much for you?
He isn't disgusted. It's something he enjoys. So he was already gay before he ever even came into contact with the material. Nowhere in this story did he make a decision wether or not he would like men having sex with other men, he just found out that he did.
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