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Old 02-28-2008, 12:52 AM   #81
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but truthfully, I don't think she was referring to herself
That is generally what I think too. Whether it is physically someone that takes Traya's place, or someone just knowing about it. I honestly don't know. It certainly raises a lot of questions that unfortunately cannot be answered...

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Old 02-28-2008, 01:03 AM   #82
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It does make you wonder if there's a third student of Kreia's students out there alive, shaped by her teachings. So far we know of 2 living (Revan and Exile), and 2 dead (Nihilus & Sion). Every time one turns up they seem to have a profound effect on the republic and the rest of the galaxy.


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Old 02-28-2008, 01:14 AM   #83
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Very interesting thought. Maybe like Arren Kae or someone. SOmeone who seems to be 'gone'. :/ Maybe...just speculation...

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Old 02-28-2008, 01:34 AM   #84
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Either that remains a good possibility or one of Revan's masters at the Dantooine Academy in K1.

So far we've seen 2 of them swoop in from the sidelines to try to save the day in 2 games. Only Master Dorak is left of the 3 that ran that school that we haven't seen yet. It would be an intersting parallel. Kreia was the librarian / Historian of her era. Atris was the Librarian / Historian of her era. Would they really be that formulaic though?


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Old 02-28-2008, 05:34 PM   #85
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Hmm... Another Darth Traya. I personally think that the next one will likely be Revan, or the Exile, or maybe the new PC (if there is one). There is a small possibility that it is one of the party-members (like Bastila) or the remaining Jedi but by how Kriea always treated them... I doubt it. Such roles are generally saved for the main characters anyway.

About there always being a Traya: metaphor for the betrayer of every era, of every story. Anakin/Vader, Ulic, Jacen/Caedus. The list goes on.
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Old 02-28-2008, 06:57 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Jvstice
Only Master Dorak is left of the 3 that ran that school that we haven't seen yet.
Didn't Vandar die on Katarr? It says so on wookiepedia's article on Vandar Tokare, but you know, thats wookiepedia.
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Kreia was the librarian / Historian of her era. Atris was the Librarian / Historian of her era. Would they really be that formulaic though?
Hmm, that is interesting. That could very well be a characteristic of a 'New Darth Traya'. Very interesting indeed...

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Old 02-28-2008, 09:17 PM   #87
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lucky: think you're most likely right as far as the title being metaphorical, and that she generally meant it as a statement of the ebb and tide of history.

But I also think she had a specific event in mind and pehaps even an individual that would have an impact on events that that Exile was putting into motion within the old republic.

Rev: I don't know that TSL has explicitly stated Vandar's fate other than vague general statements by Kreia and visas about all the Jedi dead on Visas or having renounced the jedi way of life. I figure he probably did, but Idk for sure. Just saying that it would fit a couple of "typological/archetype" patterns that you see established in the first two games for Master Dorak to show up.

k1) This game showcases the Jedi guardian way of life and philosophy on the whole both with the LS and DS. Vandar comes to the rescue with a frontal assault against the star forge much like the Jedi guardians/weapons masters (even if it was with a space fleet). Likewise, the Star Forge is the ultimate weapon for someone strong in the force to use to make a sustained frontal assault on the galaxy.

Malak's strengths and weaknesses seem to point to a very unsubtle mind, and his way of dealing with problems is again, to tackle them directly. "Oh. Taris is in the way of killing Bastilla, wipe the planet from the face of the galaxy." Even your ls/ds options are very straight-forward in most cases with little subtlety or plotting on Revan's part other than the Genoharradan or the ds option to send the Republic against the sith so both of your enemies wear each other down. Likewise, add to this that Vandar's fleet coming to your rescue in the skies above the nameless world is the epitome of how the computer personality test Revan takes when choosing a lightsaber and a class says that a guardian would choose that way to help someone by direct conflict like that.

K2) This game showcases the consular way of life and philosophy again with both LS and DS options. Enemies and allies on every side of you (Kriea, the Jedi council, Atris, G0-T0, Hanhar) are looking to use you to draw their enemies out of hiding, just like the Jedi test in K1 says a councilor would do. Much of the interpersonal interaction is geared towards either Exile's former teachers, or the exile having the opportunity and ability to teach others to follow in his or her footsteps.

And while Kreia's gone horribly wrong from both the Jedi Masters and the Sith Lords, her methods are also straight out of the Jedi counselors methods of fighting. Indirect, and aiming to get her enemies to "see through her eyes rather than closing them forever." It's how she handles Atris and Hanharr, and when she doesn't do that, she gets her enemies to wear each other down by focusing on each other, thus leaving them vulnerable to her. This is also how the former Jedi council on Dantooine are operating (Vrook, Zez Kai El, and Kavar) in combatting their enemies.

K3: What I said previous is why it would be natural to have the third game in the series to focus on the strengths and weaknesses of the sentinal and their worldview. I think this makes a good arguement that they might use Bastilla in a prominent role perhaps as your mentor. And she may be embittered about Revan or undercutting his /her wishes at this point, but I'm not entirely convinced that she's the one Kreia had in mind in telling the exile that there must always be someone who was betrayed and will betray in turn, because of another trend in the first 2 games that I already mentioned.

Of the Jedi council we met in K1, Master Dorak and Master Zhar are unaccounted for. I suppose something could happen with Master Zhar, as he was Revan's direct master when he was trying to relearn the basics, but I really don't think it will be him.


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Old 02-28-2008, 09:47 PM   #88
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That is a good prediction, I must say. You do have a point with the "Guardian, Consular, and Sentinel" stuff. I guess that I never really noticed that. Master Zhar and Master Dorak are both said to have died in the Jedi Conclave on Katarr. Appearantly this was mentioned in TSL, so the article says. This is of course mentioned on Wookiepedia. Regardless, we still don't know for sure what truly happened.

Jedi Master Zhar Lestin
Jedi Master Dorak

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Old 02-28-2008, 10:57 PM   #89
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but you know, thats wookiepedia.
Which means what, exactly?
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Old 02-29-2008, 12:20 AM   #90
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Well, mainly because anyone can edit or make an article on anything that wiki- has. I have come across somethings that are just plainly incorrect or very contradicting. Most of the time, the information is correct.

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Old 02-29-2008, 09:17 PM   #91
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Well, mainly because anyone can edit or make an article on anything that wiki- has. I have come across somethings that are just plainly incorrect or very contradicting. Most of the time, the information is correct.
For that reason no university, college or even highschool will allow a Wiki as a source for a report/project etc...


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Old 03-30-2008, 07:11 AM   #92
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Atris could be the new Traya. Her Dark hatred takes over and she is able to find the True Sith much easyier than Revan because she is truly full of hatred and darkness. Exile finnaly finds Revan and while Revan knows he needs to destroy Atris and the True Sith the Exile thinks Atris can see the light once more. This is just the begining of the K3 story. Revan and Exile go sepperate ways to find Atris and the True Sith. Depending on who you play with IMO Revan should be the PC you either end of killing Atris than Exile joins Dark side or Exile finds Atris first and she converts the Exile... Together the Exile and Atris find the True Sith. Their leader (I think there should be a King and Queen/Emperor and an Emperess) sees there pontential and takes them both as his new Apprentices... The rest of the story follows Revan, tracking down Atris, Exile, the True Sith and stopping them by any means. Before the Final battle you fight Atris and the Exile but you should be able to choose who you can save between them or you save neither of them. Than you get to meet your match after kicking every villian's ass and battle the True Sith King/Queen/Emperess/Emperor.


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Old 03-30-2008, 11:52 AM   #93
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But there's a 2/3 chance that Atris is dead.

And I always thought that Kreia meant for the Exile to be the new Darth Traya. Throughout the game she tries to convince the Exile to betray her crew, and gets the crew to betray the Exile.

And it's clear that Kreia lied to Atris about her becoming the new Darth Traya (at least in the final version of the game).


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Old 05-01-2008, 09:16 PM   #94
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I did not really give that statement much more thought than that it being part of Kreia's numerous insane nonsensical ramblings. It oesn't make sense with what we know. There was never a Darth Traya until she mentioned one.
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Old 05-02-2008, 03:52 AM   #95
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I was hoping that when my Lightsaber completed its terminal strike across Kreia's torso, that that was the Last I'll ever hear of her or any more annoying Betrayers/Hags


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Old 05-02-2008, 09:27 AM   #96
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Relevance to the topic ftl.


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Old 05-02-2008, 10:24 AM   #97
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I believe Kreia thought too much of her role in the Galaxy, and maybe there wasn't a third.


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Old 05-08-2008, 10:18 AM   #98
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Maybe the third Darth Traya was actually Palpatine...


I know, it's a stretch
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Old 09-20-2009, 09:36 PM   #99
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I don't know if this has been said, but has anyone considered Darth Bane?


"...One who holds the knowledge of betrayal, who has been betrayed in heart, and will betray in turn..."

There is a number of ways to interpret this...but here is what I think:
He was betrayed on Phaseera by his commanding officer for taking command of the Gloom Walkers...(which led him to become an apprentice of the Sith Lords)

He was betrayed in the heart by Githany..(and now that I think of it, his father)
And he went on to betray the Brotherhood of Darkness, by wiping them all out, so that the Sith could grow strong again. Most probably he will be betrayed by his apprentice, Zannah.

I don't necessarily think that this is the third Darth Traya, but I think he is a Darth Traya, seeing how his betrayals shaped the galaxy in a large way. I'm pretty sure that most true Sith could be argued as a Darth Traya, since betrayal is the essence of a Sith.
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Old 09-24-2009, 09:17 AM   #100
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I think maybe she pointed into the far future, to Chancellor/Emperor Palpatine. he betrayed the republic cause he was hiding his identity, just like Kreia did. So i think it could be possibly Palpatine. Why else would she mention the fall of the republic, that would take millenia. And a milenia is 1000 years as you now, and the events of kotor 2 were about 4000 years before the rise of darth vader. Does someone see a link here? Cause i do!


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Old 09-25-2009, 09:19 PM   #101
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I think maybe she pointed into the far future, to Chancellor/Emperor Palpatine. he betrayed the republic cause he was hiding his identity, just like Kreia did. So i think it could be possibly Palpatine. Why else would she mention the fall of the republic, that would take millenia. And a milenia is 1000 years as you now, and the events of kotor 2 were about 4000 years before the rise of darth vader. Does someone see a link here? Cause i do!
If we're pointing that far in the future, I think the Treya would be Anakin. His betrayals almost destroyed both the Sith and the Jedi orders. Palpatine was just one teacher of his life, he wasn't as important as Anakin. Plus, I believe Kreia was referring to the thought bomb detonation on Ruusan, and I believe the fall of the Republic is set in motion by the Sith going into hiding, since that was about 1000 years before The Phantom Menace.

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Old 09-27-2009, 03:03 PM   #102
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If we're pointing that far in the future, I think the Treya would be Anakin. His betrayals almost destroyed both the Sith and the Jedi orders. Palpatine was just one teacher of his life, he wasn't as important as Anakin. Plus, I believe Kreia was referring to the thought bomb detonation on Ruusan, and I believe the fall of the Republic is set in motion by the Sith going into hiding, since that was about 1000 years before The Phantom Menace.
Well i agreewith you on the Anakin part, that would soudn even more logical then Palpatine. But still Palpatine was very improtant in the events around the fall of the republic.
And on the part of the bomb detonation on ruusan, i dont udnerstand what you mean with that.
And then what about the fall of the republic, yes i agree on that to, still she has predicted it.

But it isnt known if Revan even lived when he entered the unknown regions so i dont think he was the third darth traya. Maybe the third Darth Traya will be revealed in the new Star Wars game Star Wars The old Republic.


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Old 09-27-2009, 06:34 PM   #103
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And on the part of the bomb detonation on ruusan, i dont udnerstand what you mean with that.
I was referring to when Darth Bane manipulated the Brotherhood of Darkness while they waging war with the Army of Light on Ruusan, forcing all the remaining Sith Lords (except for him of course) to take refuge in some catacombs,and set up a weapon known as the thought bomb, an extremely harmful weapon to all life and anything force sensitive. General Hoth of the Army of Light led 99 other Jedi into the catacombs to force Lord Kaan (the reigning Dark Lord of the time) to force his hand. Kaan detonated the thought bomb, killing everyone in the catacombs, and effectively leading the Republic and the Jedi Order to believe the Sith were extinct. However, they did not know Bane still lived, and he created the Rule of Two, which was basically the belief the Sith would gain power over the universe by hiding in the shadows, and striking when the time was right. He took an apprentice, and about a millenia later, Palpatine (a direct descendant from his Rule of Two philosophy) issued Order 66, purging the galaxy of Jedi, and destroying the Republic once and for all.
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Old 09-29-2009, 04:25 AM   #104
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Okay, Kriea said there must always be a Darth Traya-like figure. Therefore, I don't understand why everyone is trying to point to a single Sith as that figure. If there must always be a betrayer, wouldn't that mean that every generation has its own Traya? Bane and Palpatine may both be correct then, within their respective eras in Sith history.


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Old 09-29-2009, 09:13 PM   #105
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Okay, Kriea said there must always be a Darth Traya-like figure. Therefore, I don't understand why everyone is trying to point to a single Sith as that figure. If there must always be a betrayer, wouldn't that mean that every generation has its own Traya? Bane and Palpatine may both be correct then, within their respective eras in Sith history.
What I'm about confused about is that it is said that to be a Sith, betrayal and cunning are the key. So this applies to practically all Sith.
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Old 09-30-2009, 02:47 PM   #106
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Well, yeah. That's why the Sith were always doomed to oblivion before the institution of the Rule of Two: they were constantly warring with one another and they wiped themselves out more than once. With the Rule of Two, the way of betrayal was preserved, but in a predetermined way that would guarantee the order's survival: should the apprentice become stronger than the master, it was his duty to remove his master and take his place with his own apprentice. The only thing the Sith hadn't counted on was redemption, which was what destroyed them.

Darth Krayt sort of fixed the destruction-from-within problem that comes with the Sith being a large order, but in so doing he removed the core principle of what it means to be a Sith: complete and utter selfishness. Krayt's Sith swear total and selfless allegiance to the Dark Lord, which was why the gatekeepers of the ancient Dark Lords' holocrons on Korriban called him a heretic.

Though I suppose that the Traya figure of that era would be Darth Wyrlock, because he betrayed Krayt and took his place as the de facto Dark Lord, and also betrayed the entire order by making them believe Krayt was still alive. In that respect, Wyrlock is the only one acting like a true Sith in the Legacy era: he cares for nothing but himself.

[Edit] Now, with the publication of Legacy: War, it has been established that Krayt is indeed alive. But the point still stands since Wyrlock believed him dead.


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Old 04-05-2011, 03:59 AM   #107
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What I think is, is that who ever this new betrayer will be, he/she could not be a brand new character, but instead someone we knew and never suspected.
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