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Old 02-19-2007, 06:25 PM   #1
Pattern Spider
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Angry Disgust

I've spent the past few days busily scribing up some fic, all exited about posting it, until I noticed this little gem in your rules for posting fan fic:

Quote:
...to avoid conflicts, no homosexual-related stories at this time...
Ignoring for the moment that the first Knights of the Old Republic actually has a lesbian character main NPC, in addition to Revan's own potential scripted lesbianism or bisexuality, I find such a blatant display of bigotry on your behalf utterly shocking.

If people don't like homosexuality, then they have the simple and informed choice of not reading stories in which it appears. It's that easy.

I cannot adequately express the sheer level of disgust I am experiencing right now at this implicit condoning of hatred and discrimination.
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Old 02-19-2007, 06:53 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pattern Spider
If people don't like homosexuality, then they have the simple and informed choice of not reading stories in which it appears. It's that easy.
Not completely.

Please taken into account, Pattern Spider, that this is not an adult-exclusive forum. Over half of all the writers in the Coruscant Entertainment Centre are in their early teens. There are some that aren't 13 yet, and from what I've heard, there's one who's only 9.

Homosexual stories aren't allowed for a variety of reasons, the fact that a lot of people here aren't adults being one of them. There's also the level of the controversy it could generate - in a forum this large, you'll find a lot of opinions. There are some people here who support gay marriage, and some who can't stand the idea. Stories about such things would likely be regarded as "weird" by most of the teenagers, and could generate violent disagreement amongst the adults. To avoid any controversy that might arise, the simplest solution is to quietly say 'please take your stories elsewhere'.

Homosexual references are by no means banned entirely. There are some very well-regarded fics that include references to it or homosexual characters. Stories that focus on that entirely aren't allowed, but moderators don't go about snipping 'gay' from every sentence.

Homosexual stories are not banned out of hatred or discrimination. Many people at these forums, including myself, think that gays should have the rights of marriage. There's even a couple members who are gay themselves, one of which has written a fic for the CEC.

It's a very controversial issue, so the easiest solution has been to get rid of the potential for any controversy. This forum is by no means homophobic.

If you really want to post your fic, there are lots of other sites out there where you can do so. There's even one devoted entirely towards KotOR ones, which I think allows for homosexual stories. If you want your fic posted, that's entirely possible - but this forum just isn't the ideal place for it.

Edit: posted here now that the thread is closed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pattern Spider
Homsexuality isn't an "Adult topic".
Quote:
Originally Posted by JasraLantil
In my opinion, any discussion on sexuality is an adult topic. (And there is a specific word for those few adults who think otherwise.)
What she said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pattern Spider
It's a skewed morality where it's perfectly fine for players to engage in acts of mass slaughter, theft, corruption, murder, treason & insurrection - all for which in game rewards are received - but kissing someone of the same gender is an act of corruption, degradation and censure.
Nice.

Irrelevant in this instance. The mods don't have to work extra if people if post sci-fi violence in a fic. They do if it includes homosexuality.

We're dealing with a forum and how much controversy that would generate. Not interpretations of morality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pattern Spider
I think you grossly underestimate what most teens would consider "weird" AND their capacity to deal with that.
I can't guess as to what teenagers are like where you live, but gay-bashing is rather commonplace amongst them these days. The term 'gay' become another word for 'stupid', for Pete's sake. Some have used it here. (Though it was removed)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pattern Spider
Further, it's a simple matter to post a policy saying "There are people here who are different from you. You don't have to associate with them or read what they have to say."
That exact example could be applied towards this. This forum, as you've likely realized, is different from others in its stance towards homosexuality. But no one is forcing you to associate with it. If you don't like its stance towards your fic here, you can post it somewhere else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pattern Spider
Please, elucidate on what is and isn't appropriate homosexuality.
The appropriateness of romance with heterosexual couples here is that anything beyond kissing isn't allowed. It's exactly like that with homosexual couples, only with no kissing.

Having characters of the same gender profess their love for each other in a non-physical way seems to be acceptable. In his novelization of KotOR I, machievelli had a female Revan and Bastila do that. In his one of KotOR II, he had Atris profess her love for a female Exile. Since he's the critic of this site's fics and it never got snipped, that's a sign.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pattern Spider
If all else being the same you'd pull a story that was primarily about the Exile dealing with her positive romantic feelings towards Visas, but keep one in which she was thinking about Atton in a similar matter, then you are committing an act of discrimination based on sexual orientation.
What I said earlier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pattern Spider
Yes, it is. The ban is by your own admission a fear response because you can't find it in yourself to stand up to the haters and say "No" to their hateful attitudes.
Not particularly. Moderators can delete or alter people's posts at their discretion, so they don't have much to fear in that respect.

And before you say anything about how they should allow homosexual fics and snip the homophobic comments, that's extra work for them. And as extensive as the moderator list may look, the forums give them enough of a workload as it is, and they do it all without compensation. Expecting extra work from them is far from showing any gratitude.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pattern Spider
You may not be chaining people to fenceposts and pick-up trucks, but you're not exactly putting up the Safe Space stickers and rainbow flags, either.
Which is what we call compromise!


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Originally Posted by Sabretooth
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Last edited by Jae Onasi; 02-19-2007 at 10:36 PM. Reason: changed quote author
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Old 02-19-2007, 08:04 PM   #3
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Pattern Spider, I can understand that some people would take this statement the wrong way. At the time that CEC was created, I believe we were not entirely sure how delicate subject matter regarding homosexual love should be handled, and how the site owners and LucasArts would view controversial topics. Like it or not, homosexual topics are still controversial in the US, and accusing us of bigotry when we are trying to be careful of any sexual topic, gay or straight, is not necessarily the best approach. Since this is a PG-13 site, we try to play down any sexual themes regardless of orientation--basically, if it's not something we'd discuss with a kid who's still getting an allowance from his/her parents, it's not something that belongs in a fic in any detail. I think the original author of those rules was taking his cue from either from the films (which don't address homosexual themes and have only the briefest of heterosexual displays of affection) or from some other source. There's a very remote possibility of legal concerns since some US states still have sodomy laws on the books, we don't want to be out of compliance with any laws where LF exists. I honestly don't know if legal concerns are even an issue, but I'm not a lawyer, so I'd rather not guess on things that have even the remotest chance of generating legal action. This particular rule has been a topic of discussion among the moderators, actually, so please bear with us as we work through this.


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Old 02-19-2007, 08:14 PM   #4
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Thumbs down

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Not completely.

Please taken into account, Pattern Spider, that this is not an adult-exclusive forum. Over half of all the writers in the Coruscant Entertainment Centre are in their early teens. There are some that aren't 13 yet, and from what I've heard, there's one who's only 9.

Homosexual stories aren't allowed for a variety of reasons, the fact that a lot of people here aren't adults being one of them.
Homsexuality isn't an "Adult topic". More so, it's something more and more children are having direct contact with through their parents, their relatives and the families of their class mates.

It's a skewed morality where it's perfectly fine for players to engage in acts of mass slaughter, theft, corruption, murder, treason & insurrection - all for which in game rewards are received - but kissing someone of the same gender is an act of corruption, degradation and censure.

Quote:
There's also the level of the controversy it could generate - in a forum this large, you'll find a lot of opinions. There are some people here who support gay marriage, and some who can't stand the idea. Stories about such things would likely be regarded as "weird" by most of the teenagers, and could generate violent disagreement amongst the adults. To avoid any controversy that might arise, the simplest solution is to quietly say 'please take your stories elsewhere'.
I think you grossly underestimate what most teens would consider "weird" AND their capacity to deal with that. Further, it's a simple matter to post a policy saying "There are people here who are different from you. You don't have to associate with them or read what they have to say." There are far too many people who aren't big on personal responsibility. It's time they learnt.


Quote:
Homosexual references are by no means banned entirely. There are some very well-regarded fics that include references to it or homosexual characters. Stories that focus on that entirely aren't allowed, but moderators don't go about snipping 'gay' from every sentence.
Please, elucidate on what is and isn't appropriate homosexuality.

Quote:
Homosexual stories are not banned out of hatred or discrimination. Many people at these forums, including myself, think that gays should have the rights of marriage. There's even a couple members who are gay themselves, one of which has written a fic for the CEC.
There's a very simple litmus test: would you censor something if the participants were heterosexual. If all else being the same you'd pull a story that was primarily about the Exile dealing with her positive romantic feelings towards Visas, but keep one in which she was thinking about Atton in a similar matter, then you are committing an act of discrimination based on sexual orientation.


Quote:
It's a very controversial issue, so the easiest solution has been to get rid of the potential for any controversy. This forum is by no means homophobic.
Yes, it is. The ban is by your own admission a fear response because you can't find it in yourself to stand up to the haters and say "No" to their hateful attitudes. You may not be chaining people to fenceposts and pick-up trucks, but you're not exactly putting up the Safe Space stickers and rainbow flags, either.
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Old 02-19-2007, 08:42 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pattern Spider
Homsexuality isn't an "Adult topic".
In my opinion, any discussion on sexuality is an adult topic. (And there is a specific word for those few adults who think otherwise.)

Every forum has to consider the majority of their members when making their rules. If you do not like the rules set out in this forum, then there are plenty of other forums where you can post your story.


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Old 02-19-2007, 08:43 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
Since this is a PG-13 site, we try to play down any sexual themes regardless of orientation--basically, if it's not something we'd discuss with a kid who's still getting an allowance from his/her parents, it's not something that belongs in a fic in any detail.
The first thread I read on this site was dealing with romance in KotOR III. The OP felt entirely free to try and insist that there be no discussion of any non-het romance options, and even though some of the more negative comments were censored no mods stepped in to say her behaviour was inappropriate.

The language of the forum's own rules on fiction differentiate between heterosexual and homo sexual activities, regardless if they're otherwise the same (such as kissing). It makes no allowances for the slight references Devon mentions, it reads as an absolute blanket ban.

That's not a "regardless" situation at all.

Quote:
I think the original author of those rules was taking his cue from either from the films (which don't address homosexual themes and have only the briefest of heterosexual displays of affection) or from some other source.
Did this person in any way, shape or form actually watch the films? Half of The Empire Strikes Back is about Han and Leia hooking up (with angry kissing, surprised kissing and tragic farewell kissing), while Return Of The Jedi has Leia running around in her underwear at the beginning before draping over Han during the mission briefing and then settling down for a good snog beneath the exploding Death Star at the end.

Quote:
There's a very remote possibility of legal concerns since some US states still have sodomy laws on the books, we don't want to be out of compliance with any laws where LF exists. I honestly don't know if legal concerns are even an issue, but I'm not a lawyer, so I'd rather not guess on things that have even the remotest chance of generating legal action.
Given US law allows virtual paedophillia, I really don't think same-sex kissing is a concern.

Quote:
This particular rule has been a topic of discussion among the moderators, actually, so please bear with us as we work through this.
Oh, good.
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Old 02-19-2007, 08:48 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pattern Spider
Yes, it is. The ban is by your own admission a fear response because you can't find it in yourself to stand up to the haters and say "No" to their hateful attitudes.
The ban simply cuts down on the workload given to the moderators and administrators here who volunteer their spare time to run this forum. It isn't an "admission of fear" because, if you'll also notice, the rules prohibit the sort of hateful behavior you're railing against in this thread.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pattern Spider
You may not be chaining people to fenceposts and pick-up trucks, but you're not exactly putting up the Safe Space stickers and rainbow flags, either.
o noes



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Old 02-19-2007, 09:04 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasraLantill
In my opinion, any discussion on sexuality is an adult topic. (And there is a specific word for those few adults who think otherwise.)
"Parent of a pregnant 13 year old" by any chance?


Quote:
Originally Posted by jmac7142
The ban simply cuts down on the workload given to the moderators and administrators here who volunteer their spare time to run this forum. It isn't an "admission of fear" because, if you'll also notice, the rules prohibit the sort of hateful behavior you're railing against in this thread.
"We want to avoid controversy and violent reactions", if you'll excuse the paraphrasing, is a fear response and has nothing to do with cutting down workload (which is actually still a pretty lousy reason)
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Old 02-19-2007, 09:15 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pattern Spider
"We want to avoid controversy and violent reactions", if you'll excuse the paraphrasing, is a fear response and has nothing to do with cutting down workload (which is actually still a pretty lousy reason)
Oh. Well, I guess you'll have to settle for "it's not your site and the people who maintain this site will set rules as they see fit". IDK, I mean maybe if you send a check to someone helping to pay for bandwidth and server space and then maybe you can bring equality, etc. to this corner of the internets.



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Old 02-19-2007, 09:31 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pattern Spider
"Parent of a pregnant 13 year old" by any chance?
No, actually. And I sort of take offense at your assumption that I would be, as well as your insinuation that the Mods and Admins are lazy for not wanting 'extra work'. They are not 'paid' employees. They volunteer their free time to keep this forum running. I think they spend quite enough time policing threads as it is.

I understand that you're upset by the current forum rules, but until the rules are changed, you'll have to abide by them just like the rest of us. And posting personal attacks and snide remarks probably isn't the way to go to win support on the issue.


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Old 02-19-2007, 10:12 PM   #11
Jae Onasi
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This is a private site, and the site owners get to set the rules. If they say no purple polka-dot fics, I'll enforce that rule. I, and a lot of other parents, don't think sexuality, gay or straight, is an appropriate topic for younger children. I want mine to be emotionally and cognitively ready for that discussion. I'm not about to force sexual content onto someone else's kid.

You are not helping your case by being militant and accusing anyone who doesn't agree with you 100% of being fearful or hateful. I have several gay family members, and a couple of my friends are gay. One of my very best friends, who has since gone to heaven, was gay. I neither fear them nor hate them. I love them all dearly.

You have made your point loud and clear, and since it now appears to be descending into flame-baiting, this thread is closed. If you wish to continue this discussion, you are welcome to do so by PM to the moderators or administrators.


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