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Old 12-31-2007, 05:18 PM   #161
Darth Payne
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Maybe hand the project over to another team if they pull out of it?

That would keep the mod alive, i think.


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Old 12-31-2007, 06:07 PM   #162
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And I think focusing on restoration is essential to gain the widest and most significant support for current and future players.


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Old 12-31-2007, 07:14 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by CrisG
Can the team at least make an instlll of what is completed? I would really appreciate it if one of you would at least post what there is in some form of installable content. thanks.
Virtually nothing was completed in the first place.

@D27: Who did you have in mind? Who has the experience, the organisation, the time and is willing to do so?



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Old 12-31-2007, 07:33 PM   #164
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Haven't a clue.

I just got involved with this site almost two months ago.

Maybe open a new thread, asking for modders able enough to handle it.


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Old 12-31-2007, 08:12 PM   #165
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I always thought this wouldn't go far...


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Old 12-31-2007, 09:02 PM   #166
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Can the team at least make an instlll of what is completed? I would really appreciate it if one of you would at least post what there is in some form of installable content. thanks.
To my knowledge (and I'm absolutely sure that there was more done by other members, I just don't know about it for the reasons I've explained, so I really apologize if I don't mention any person's contributions), you would end up receiving:

My writing drafts, Quanon's concept artwork, Quanon's models and 3D work (which really are first-rate, especially his artwork), Magnusll's work with the KAurora Editor (which has been released in its own right), SithRevan's work on the Korriban-Czerka module, two patches that placed Shuma the Hutt and the Iriaz on Dantooine (that I felt was certainly not completed even though it was released as "final")...

I'm totally sure that there was more though. I worked pretty independently, so I'm unaware of much of what the rest of the team had done. Thats just the stuff that I came into direct contact with.

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Old 01-01-2008, 02:02 AM   #167
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I am new here, but I care deeply for the future of KOTR. I am in a place in my life when I have a great deal of time for a number of reasons, and some resources that I am willing to help this effort with, at least to archive and preserve what has been done. I am a game researcher and 2D professional artist who has been studying both game history and development and 3D design, and feel that KOTR I is one of the masterpieces of game literature and the effort to restore content is very valueable.

I am willing to help set up a secure place for files to be kept,and to work with the team or former team for this purpose and to help try to see if others will come who have the expereince and skills to complete possible tasks. I do not know the complete techncial scale of what is restorable, in the way of files included in the total file set for the game, nor what might be restored reasonably but am certainly willing to help consider the problems and the situation. I have no motive other than helping preseve what can be saved in the way of the work that you all have done, for it is clear that there will be no KOTR III from Biowar or LucasArts from what both their senior staffs have said, at least at this time. I think it is therefore doubly important to try to see that there is every possible resource saved from the original vision.

I cannot address what might have been done in the way of add on mods, nor am I at all knowledgable enough on the game or the SW unvierse to speak to the value of any effort of that kind. But I can clearly see the coherence and the overall ethos and way the game story and mechanics of KOTR work so well, and can see and believe totally in the value of any effort to return any content to its rightful place that can be achieved.

I think it is important that any resources that are saved are clearly saved with the intention of this form of preservation and therefore become archived for the future good of the game, and available for any serious efforts now or future to continue this work. That is my humble opinion.


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Old 01-01-2008, 02:27 AM   #168
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a lot of jargon there my friend
are you saying you want to take over the project ?


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Old 01-01-2008, 12:40 PM   #169
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I am saying
1. I am willing to help preserve the files and the work done to date for those who are qualified and interested in continuing the preservatoin and restoration work.
2. I am far from qualified in terms of knowledge of the SW universe and KOTR as both a game and a story to be a project leader, having only recently entered into the SW games.
3. I appologize for my many words, my intentions and hopes are to help if help can preserve what has been achieved so that others can carry on, and I am willing to help organize and coordinate as a helper and to lead as it is needed in this way.


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Old 01-01-2008, 01:03 PM   #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrisG
I am saying
1. I am willing to help preserve the files and the work done to date for those who are qualified and interested in continuing the preservatoin and restoration work.
2. I am far from qualified in terms of knowledge of the SW universe and KOTR as both a game and a story to be a project leader, having only recently entered into the SW games.
3. I appologize for my many words, my intentions and hopes are to help if help can preserve what has been achieved so that others can carry on, and I am willing to help organize and coordinate as a helper and to lead as it is needed in this way.
There is very little to store, and it is mostly on personal computeres. Anyhow, despite the generosity of your offer, it potentially could create problems in terms of permissions and property.



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Old 01-01-2008, 01:45 PM   #171
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Quote:
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There is very little to store, and it is mostly on personal computeres. Anyhow, despite the generosity of your offer, it potentially could create problems in terms of permissions and property.
Indeed , I only got some crappy ruff versions of one area for Sleheyron .

I'm do know Sith Revan had remade some missing Cerzka base on Korriban , but have no clue how much he finished .

The Tantooine temple hasn't been worked on , I think ... perhaps some ideas where noted , but thats all I think .

Anyway , for just the half of this project to succeed , you would need a bunch of 3D modellers : I fear I was boldly "stupid" brave to think I could create a whole planet on my own .

Though I'm not unhappy I jumped on the bandwagon .

I think I pushed Magnusll to further develope Kaurora , plus I have now a juicy looking Temple to wander around in in K1 .

If this thing was ever to fly again , I would want at least 2 other 3D modellers on the team , though I fear running an "art department" is difficult .

Mainly across the Internet ...

Anyways enough of my sobbing and nagging .


TIQUILAAAAAAAA
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Old 01-01-2008, 02:19 PM   #172
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Such an effort might take a form like this:

A Master List of content hosted on the Team Site, with each component listed by maker, type and what it contains.
Each of these items could be labelled: Open (as in available for any who wished to work with them as long as they promise to ackwledge the source in any work they do and comply with all restrictions on modding as set forth in the EULA and by LA and Biowar. or Restricted: (as in anyone who wished to consider using that item woudl need to contact the maker or authorizing person with a contact e mail or link to get in touch with them, but still a listing of the contents.

This might preserve the work and also protect the creators and their rights in a simple format. The files themselves could be stored on Filefront with the usual notices of restriction of use, acknowledgement and attribution and honouring the EULA etc.) either with a public link for the Open files or a contact address for the creator for the Restricted files.

There could be a final category if necesary of Closed Files, files that were created and were lost or declined for use, with contact info for the maker, in case someone wanted to try to reproduce the work and the creator would be willing to help with imput on the challenges etc.

This might be hosted as I suggested on the Team site which could be preserved for a year at least to see how things go. I am willing to help with the costs of keeping it open if helpful.


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Old 01-02-2008, 08:42 AM   #173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrisG
Such an effort might take a form like this:
I'm in a somewhat peculiar position in this, as I've been working on a tool (KAurora) which is not necessarily linked to any project in particular but can theoretically be used in any mod. Though, truth to be said, the initial impulse in writing KAurora was in fact given by the K1RP.

In any case, I have no problems whatsoever in making KAurora available to any site which may want to host it. If you do create an hosting site, just let me know and I'll send you the package. Allowing me to directly upload it (and edit the relevant description) would make the release of new versions somewhat smoother than what currently is, as I could then mantain a "stable" release, which gets updated every once in a while, and a "development" release containing the most up-to-date version, incomplete as it might be. But this is not a requirement. In any case, StarWarsKnights will keep getting regular updates until I stop the development work.
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Old 01-02-2008, 09:31 AM   #174
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It would be great if we could get a statement from SithRevan. It seems that he actually *did* a lot of work for this project. Unfortunately its not publicly known and/or available.

Take care
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Old 01-02-2008, 12:07 PM   #175
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OK< well we will keep working on it gently and see what happens, today i get to do a monitor replacement i think so i will check in as i can, and we will see what we can do.

And thanks MagnusII that is very generous and the spirit I hope we can generate among those working on this project of sharing what has been done for future possiblities, always preserving and honouring attribuition and authorship in every way I would hope.


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Old 01-03-2008, 01:30 AM   #176
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Don't get me wrong Chris, I'd be happy to turn over what I have; the problem is that none of it is actually an installable or playable program. I'm really happy that you are interested. Its just that I don't have any models or things that could be used to create a new area.

My work specifically was relegated to Microsoft Word documents. Area descriptions, rundowns, synopsis-style stories. Stuff like that. Even that is not complete.

I'm not sure what good it could do to hand it off to a future team, although I'm not necessarily closed to the idea. I would imagine though that if a new team came along to attempt to do what this project attempted, they would probably make their own storylines/descriptions.

I probably got about only 1/3 of Sleheyron written out, at least as I saw it. I had a broad overview of the world, and I knew where I wanted to go with it, but I did not hammer out smaller details in a lot of areas, especially the "lower levels" of Sleheyron City. Most of what I wrote was for the upper area.

The lower areas, as well as the mines, have brief but colorful descriptions, and have no where near the intimate detail of areas like the landing pad or the streets. Outside of Sleheyron, I have a very brief rundown of Pollard Seario, the Czerka administrator of Dreshdae; a Sith sympathizer, antiquities collector and embezzler, playing his own allies in order to steal discovered artifacts. I vaguely thought of some sort of mission where the player can recover an artifact for him, or double-cross him and tell the Sith, who in turn gives the player a mission for his silent assassination, but I wrote nothing of it.

If you plan on organizing a revival of the project, or are recruiting others; thats great. I'd love to see this project fly.

Other stuff that the project made, like the artwork and 3D stuff were Quanon's work; as such, its best to ask him.

As Quanon said, for the project to be successful, whatever team that assumes the job will need to be significantly large; I might add intelligent, and well experienced. I felt a bit overwhelmed writing most of everything, and I'm sure he felt the same about all of the artwork. It burns me out. If the project did fly again, I'd be really happy to continue (in my spare time). But the team would need to be larger, more interconnected, and more active.

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Old 01-03-2008, 02:06 AM   #177
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@CrisG: Start a new forum or better yet, start a email list with the persons who want to help. I would like to help, as little as my help is worth.

Take care
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Old 01-03-2008, 02:13 AM   #178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magnusll
I'm in a somewhat peculiar position in this, as I've been working on a tool (KAurora) which is not necessarily linked to any project in particular but can theoretically be used in any mod. Though, truth to be said, the initial impulse in writing KAurora was in fact given by the K1RP.

In any case, I have no problems whatsoever in making KAurora available to any site which may want to host it. If you do create an hosting site, just let me know and I'll send you the package. Allowing me to directly upload it (and edit the relevant description) would make the release of new versions somewhat smoother than what currently is, as I could then mantain a "stable" release, which gets updated every once in a while, and a "development" release containing the most up-to-date version, incomplete as it might be. But this is not a requirement. In any case, StarWarsKnights will keep getting regular updates until I stop the development work.
You need a website, my man. If you need some free space with limited restrictions KotORFiles provides hosting for mod-related sites. They've yet to have anyone take them up on it, either.

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Old 01-03-2008, 06:27 AM   #179
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You need a website, my man. If you need some free space with limited restrictions KotORFiles provides hosting for mod-related sites. They've yet to have anyone take them up on it, either.
Indeed , I think that would greatly help to spread the "WORD" .

Most people still think this programme is for a lucky few and you need to be privelegde or something to get it ... Which is ofcourse NOT the case !

I would grab that change Mag !

@Topic :

Quote:
and I'm sure he felt the same about all of the artwork. It burns me out.
Yep , that is more or less what happened , I had a blast of energy in the first 2 months , then I just got bogged down and there where some other prived issues that needed to be handled .

Plus it started to look like I was the only one doing something , no offense to the other team members , I'm sure they somehow feel the sameway about it .

And like I said before , this project needs a strong ART arm , mainly in the beginning .

One man on its own can do a part of an area , but not all .

If I take a wild guess if I would continue to work on Sleheyron ( and get it to nice level of hobby modelling ) I would like need 2 years to get things working .

And I'm thinking positive here ...

Anyway , to bring this back out of the dead , we need a strong batch of leaders , to take care for all aspects of this big mod .

Who can setup somesort of planning , devide the tasks to various modders .

Just my IMO .


TIQUILAAAAAAAA
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Old 01-03-2008, 08:47 AM   #180
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Hello!

I think Sleyheron is what killed the project. As Quanon stated, his estimate is two years to complete the planet. I think its importent to concentrate on the RESTORATION of the stuff which is already on the cd (and give it some finishing touches maybe).

For example: Deadeye Duncan on Manaan is already been resurrected by Dart333. The mod (or restoration) could stand as it is. It doesn't lend anything new to game, but gives it some nice conversation for the pc. The only odd thing about it, I always thought, is that Duncan stays put if you don't kill him (which I actually never did, as I am a lightside sissy). He begins the conversation on and on if you let him. I think he just should walk away and disappeare when the conversation ends. But that is all there is to say about it.

The developers might or might not have a side quest regarding Duncan intended. We don't know it, and the folks who did the proggy are not available to ask them. So the team should discuss wether Duncan should walk away or not, and that is all there is to restore him. (Of course others might make a side quest for/with him, but that is a mod then and not restoration.)

These are just my two credits, of course. But I think those nice bits and peaces could be done and released in a manageable time frame, and I would gladly help (as little as that help might be) with such a project.

Take care
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Old 01-03-2008, 09:52 AM   #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamhainn
Hello!
I think Sleyheron is what killed the project. As Quanon stated, his estimate is two years to complete the planet. I think its importent to concentrate on the RESTORATION of the stuff which is already on the cd (and give it some finishing touches maybe).
True , very true .

Sleheyron was a project on its own , wich would have needed a big team .

Perhaps I made the wrong choice and should have started on the Rakatan Temple on Tatooine .

I think I would have had more result and other Team members could finannly start modding on the area filling it with life and the nessecary bits for the Star Map quest .

But , no ... I had to go for a whole new planet

Alas , its one of many projects that died because it was to big to handle .


TIQUILAAAAAAAA
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Old 01-03-2008, 10:10 AM   #182
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It wasn't just Sleheyron. No-one seemed willing to accept reasonable limits. There was talk of adding sidequests to the few released fixes before we'd even got the main restoration-work done.



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Old 01-03-2008, 10:30 AM   #183
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Okay, who wants to take over the torch? I already contacted Darth333 via pm if she would lend a hand to fix Deadeye Duncan finally. (No answer yet.) Who is willing to add his/her knowledge to finish some of the possible restorations?

Take care
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Old 01-03-2008, 12:36 PM   #184
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Excellent dialog going on here, thanks so much for all of you sharing your thoughts as they seem very to the point about the way that restoration can and might proceed. I will look into a website or see if it is possible to keep the current one going as a place to keep dialog up, i am currently calibrating a new larger monitor which takes some time as i am a artist and have to have exact specs, but when that is done i will look into a place to put files so there can be a repository. My feeling is that focusing on resotration initially, and smaller scale achievements will give a chance for team building and coherence and success to happen, even a small achievement completed gives a nice feeling, and builds strength. I feel any effort will be rewarding as this is a key time, there may be some chance of connection with existing staff at the companies at some point, who knows, and there is the strong flow of energy in the community based on the power of the game itself. Thanks again for the replies and interaction, this is the place that it has happened, and I am glad to see it. For now I will start a thread here, on resources for ppl to post about, in a simplified way, as a way to start seeing what is available. That can be moved to a new forum or site as suggested as things grow if they do.


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Old 01-03-2008, 03:33 PM   #185
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It wasn't just Sleheyron. No-one seemed willing to accept reasonable limits. There was talk of adding sidequests to the few released fixes before we'd even got the main restoration-work done.
Yes, thank you. I think that multiple factors combined to make the project too heavy. No one seemed to want to get down to technical details, or to set reasonable benchmarks, limited goals, etc. Discussion about Coruscant or Yavin honestly had no place in the project – unfocused imaginations, “this would be cool” mentalities, and wandering off target caused a total lack of focus.

A project of such a size needs to have very precise goals about what to do, how to do it, who does it, and exactly what to leave behind and make no attempt in doing. I think that the success and ongoing life of Team Gizka can be partially attributed to that. They rejected restoring aspects of the game that it became clear that they could not do – for whatever reasons, from a lack of existing material, to content size and time requirements, and so on. That’s why the Droid Planet was left behind. As has been repeated many times already, Sleheyron really would need a team of its own to have a hope of a chance of being playable. A writer, an artist, and a few other people working independently were a wholly inadequate approach to the enormous task. I would say that, at minimum, 25 active and experienced people alone would need to be dedicated to a planet. There are parts to the project that really needed to be dropped, like restoring the Sarlaac beast – which I didn’t think could be done professionally. Or the Swoop bike-parts stuff, which I’m not sure how it could have been implemented to improve the rather-linear races. It all sounded cool, but goals needed to be realistic, defined, and have a clear approach in how to tackle them. Otherwise, they go nowhere – which is exactly what happened.

Sleheyron would be great, but it’s a work from scratch, and just too enormous. I think that time should have been spent on things that, as have been said, were already partially found intact. Like the Tatooine Temple or the Czerka module. Fixing them and integrating them to the game are realistic goals. Building an entire world from concept – not so much.

For the project to become alive, goals would need to be starkly defined, realistic, and have a sufficient number of experienced people dedicated to them.

Last edited by southern_fox; 01-04-2008 at 01:57 AM.
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Old 01-03-2008, 04:40 PM   #186
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As this is SithRevan's thread about his and his teams project I feel a bit that we are cannibalizing his efforts and this thread. Unfortunately he can't be contacted via his website/forum. So I suggest, another forum should be opened to discuss what can and cannot be restored.

Take care
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Old 01-03-2008, 10:08 PM   #187
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Here it is:

Listing of Available KOTR I Restoration Work

http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=184979

I have PM'd SithRevan and others of the team and hope to hear soon, as I titally want to be in respect of the team efforts and not presume on them at all. My concern was for a saving of reserouces and a transition to what might be. There seems to be good consensus and understanding of realistic limits and possible positive wys to advance. So I opened a thread here for this, or will follow anyone who wishes to lead in a different way with this all.


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Old 01-04-2008, 09:45 AM   #188
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My two cents on this: the project started in an extremely loose way and without a strict timeline for the very simple fact that, when it started, it set out to do the impossible: rebuild Sleheyron when there was no way to create areas from scratch. There was no point, at the time, in setting a definite date to complete something you couldn't even start. Also stemming from this was a non-existent filter on things which "cannot be done": if you plan to recreate Sleheyron, then you can also "restore" anything you want by simply doing it from scratch.

Now it has become possible but, as many have correctly pointed out, solving the technical problems doesn't change the fact that creating a new planet is a huge task. Even assuming a smallish planet with few quests going on (and Sleheyron was anything but small), you'd still need half a dozen new areas at a minimum. This requires a team of 3D artists with some serious Max skills, not to mention the better part of a year. I think Quanon's temple is rather revealing of the type of skills needed, and difficulties you're going to meet.

If the project has to be restarted, it'd need a much stricter organization and a pool of several people to whom to assign various parts of the project. Also, if Sleheyron is still a target, you'd need at least a team of 3-5 3d builders dedicated exclusively to it to complete the initial, massive area creation work.
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Old 01-04-2008, 02:04 PM   #189
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Yes, I think thats completely true. The project started out with ambitions that it could not immediately tackle, so no rigid organization was ever set up in the first place. It could not be.

It served the team in the beginning, but later became a fatal handicap.
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Old 01-04-2008, 08:34 PM   #190
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I have contacted KOTRFiles about a hosted site and will see if there is enough interest here to create one for hosting.


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Old 01-05-2008, 07:00 AM   #191
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I'd be happy to help as a writer (though, do feel all writers should learn how to mod generally so there shouldn't be a writing team so much as a design team) if you need another for this... umm... rebirth.
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Old 01-05-2008, 08:56 AM   #192
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I suppose I could have a peek at the Tantooine temple ...

But I want first to see a strong leader joining the team or at least some middle man who can play the "manager" , to set the goals and keep everything together a bit.

Setting up sites is nice and all , but doesn't keep the boat from sinking .

Just my 2 cents

~Q


TIQUILAAAAAAAA
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Old 01-05-2008, 09:21 AM   #193
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I, too, think hosting is not the problem, as nothing was really done which can be regarded as finished.

The main thing needed at the moment is a private forum where the ones who want to contribute can discuss what can and connot be restored.

I think I will have Deadeye Duncan on Manaan finished in a way I am satisfied with in a couple of days. Unfortunately family and work schedule as well as my limited knowledge of modding are a hindrance, but I will follow that path. After I will present it if we have a forum, and it can be discussed.

Then it is Shuma the Hutt and the third Vulkar level. But to accomplish that I need huge help from the community.

@Quanon: I can be a restraining manager any day :-) .

Take care all and have a nice weekend!
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Old 01-06-2008, 10:51 AM   #194
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I could join as a writer; although, as has already been said, I'd really need a strong, effective leader step in to run the project.

I could help setup and organize goals/objectives, and be an adviser to project structure details, but I certainly don't have the time this semester to do such a job full-time. I'm taking 5 classes.
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Old 01-06-2008, 06:27 PM   #195
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I've ran around in the Tantooine temple for about an hour or 3 .

Man , what a mess ...

Its big and its full of holes, showing the great void , half finished walls ,
weird light placement , floating things and all .

And its a real Maze with death ends , the Cave corridors are a bit strange , they look just like those Shyrak caves on Korriban , thoug a differant layout .

To be honest , to restore that temple ... is as heavy as creating Sleheyron from scratch .

If I want to restore and fix this up ... well I'll have to add extra walls , cut or remove things here and there .

But I'll have to rebuild the whole thing in Max to get a good feel how the layout is . And to decide how to fix the many troubled areas ...


TIQUILAAAAAAAA
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Old 01-06-2008, 07:10 PM   #196
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Really? Wow, I wasn't aware that it was so bad.

That goes to show my lack of knowledge about 3D modeling.
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Old 01-06-2008, 07:55 PM   #197
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It shows how unrealistic this project was, no offense. If the Tatooine Temple requires as much work on it as Sleheyron, it's an immense amount of work. What does surprises me, is that Quanon didn't know how much work had to be done to that particular temple before now. And that's vital for any modding project. If he had known, maybe he could've told others that maybe they shouldn't be that ambitious. Now, I'm not blaming anyone (and especially not Quanon, seeing as what he has done - how much can a man do, right?), but it just shows again how bad communication was between the team members.
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Old 01-07-2008, 01:56 AM   #198
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Quanon is totally right!

What can be done (and I have no knowledge of making modules):

- The third level of the Black Vulkar Base (I am on it right now to make it at least accessable for interested players).
The module creats its map while exploring (!). There are some npcs already. Some of them even have voice overs (!). It seems that a story was involved in this (pc disguising as a laborer?), but it - the story - was (as of my estimate) only 5 to 10 % completed. Though it is worth visiting.

- The third level of the Shadowlands.
This module is essentially an empty area (!). There is not even a hint what was panned for it. The map does not advance properly while exploring, and I did not discover the entry point(s). If modders whould like to do something with it they should be highly experienced! Worth visiting - maybe.

- EVERY other module is in a state which needs a real bunch of work and a team (3 to 5 persons min. - modeller, scripter, story/dialogue devs, playtester(s)) which concentrates solely on that one project. Also what was intended with each particular module (storywise) can only be guessed at best.

Take care
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Old 01-07-2008, 07:11 AM   #199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southern_fox
Really? Wow, I wasn't aware that it was so bad.

That goes to show my lack of knowledge about 3D modeling.
Well there are many ugly parts , all I can say they dropped this area very early , all I can think of that this was more like a test , to see how to fit rakatan architecture with caves or such .

THere parts of cave wich are not fully modeled , bad alignments to , if you turn the camera around your character you start to see lots of unfinished business.

Its not undoable , but I know that importing module/ area model parts is a crashy affair .

Though this might be a long project , but like I said a few post before :

I first want to see someone , declaring himself "leader" of this project , ask the writers where they want to take the cut modules story wise .

And then I can start to repair the Tatooine Temple in talk with the writers , so we can decide what exactly is needed of the Temple .

Plus I haven't talked about the WalkMeshes yet .

And to clearify : I'm in for the 3D part , I'll leave the .mod file handeling to other volunteers .


TIQUILAAAAAAAA
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Old 01-07-2008, 08:25 AM   #200
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@Quanon: As I said before - I can be a leader any day!

Unfortunately my modding knowledge is pretty limited. Though I am willing to invest time and effort to learn.

I don't want to kill the fun, but why not start with a restoration which can be done much more easily? The deleted Vulkar Base level is already available. Unfortunately my modding knowledge... see above.

I looked a bit into the conversations which take place there. It seems that the pc should need a key card. He could get it in exchange for some spice if I am not mistaken (there *was* something with spice I am sure). But actually it is not enough material to see exactly what the original developers intended with this level. The restoration of this level would be mostly for curiocities sake. To make this level worth playing the modders would have to create a new story around this level.

If somebody wants to help, send me a pm, please.

Take care
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