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Old 03-14-2007, 06:13 PM   #1
rasdel
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More is not always better...

Hello, first off i want to say i am currently playing the "OJP enhanced 009b" version, so i would be commenting mostly on that one... i tried to download the new 009r but the link is down... i guess i will have to wait the next link...

I have tried the Mod, and it is great in many aspects...

Pros:
*More maps, more game types, more... more... more...
*Interesting DP system
*Interesting dueling concept
*Weapons holster when not used (nice and realistic)

Cons:
Ok... here we go...

-New Saber Styles-
Not really needed... i personally don't like them, the stances aren't really that good looking (no offense) and i don't think they do add too much greatness into the project. The game was fine with the 3 stances for single saber, 2 for dual and 2 for staff... but that is just me...

-AutoDodging/AutoBlocking-
This is weird... on one hand it's pretty good, on the other is kind of boring... i mean, what's the fun in not being able to kill people in all the ways you did before. Technically you still can, but it's way tougher since you need to wait for DP to drop... I am not personally a fun in this autododgin/blocking... and i am glad it was taken out in 009r (or so i was told)...

-Too complex combat system-
This is the main flaw is see in this Mod... yes it is great, and i do support it... so please don't get me wrong. There are too many things to learn to be able to play it decently, the learning curve is way to long, and it has so much complexity it can get messy. The problem is that i see the mod going in the wrong direction and since i do like it... i would like to see if i can help with some suggestions, so read on...

My Suggestions:

"More is not always better... in simplicity lies perfection"
Remember all those old arcade games... how simple they where... how basic, and at the same time how addictive and exciting... still now you can get hooked into the fast paced action. Anyone could play them, it was easy, but not everyone could trully mastered them... that is why i think the Mod could become better by being simpler but at the same time more exciting.

Let's start off with the idea of the "Combat-Mode" this is your default mode... when you join a game you are in this mode. This is the mode you use to fight and attack. All you have to do is press that left mouse button and your Jedi/Sith will start slashing. Even though the fights are good in JKA they are not that movie-like... why? because most moves don't look continious, you slash like crazy and instead of looking like a jedi you look like a kid with a stick trying to hit a "piņata". So... what if the moves where connected??

Imagine that while in "Combat-Mode" and standing still or moving forwars, by simply pressing and holding the left mouse button you will unleash 3 or 4 continuous attacks (pretty much like a katta, without the flashy waves coming from the saber), once the attack sequence is done, it starts all over again (with a small recovery time, depending on the stance, ex: Blue=short; Yellow=medium; Red=long).
Now the same thing will happen if pressing the left mouse button but instead of standing still or moving forward, you move to the sides (or circle your enemy) the combat anymation would differ 3 or 4 continuous attacks maybe with a nice "turning all the way around" attack at the end or something like that. Some hits can be the same while in the same stance but the combo itself should look different for visual preferences.
And last but not least attacking while pressing back could make one nice strong HIT, that could be used either by itself or as a combo ending/finisher at the end of the 3/4 hit sequence (again each stance has it's own "strong" attack).

This "Combat-Mode" will make attaking WAY easier, and WAY faster... and more importantly continuous attacks will make the attacker look more proficient with the saber... more jedi/sith like.

Now, on to the "Defence-Mode"... this is another mode... you enter this by pressing and holding the right mouse button. While on this mode you will block every attack in a 180 degrees radious. When attacks are block you will use the DP gauge, each blocked attack will drain the DP gauge (which will reacharge when in "Combat-Mode" or while not recieveing any hits in "Defence-Mode"). Basically, while on this mode you are virtually invulnerable as long as your DP gauge holds... once out the next attack could be fatal (attacks from the back could be blocked while in "defence-mode" but if they do, they should deplete the DP gauge faster). Too make this look cool each new attack should change the animation of the "Blocker" so that it looks like he is actually blocking each attack. The whole auto-dodge when down should not be implemented since there would be a "Defence-Mode".
NOTE: Defence-mode does NOT atler or limit your movement at all.

The whole concept here is that each combo makes the battle faster and exciting, while blocking becomes easier making it look cooler too. You will have to use the "windows" in your opponents defense to get the advantage and kill them, pretty much like in the movies there most of the time the battle is parrying and blocking in really fast succesion. Hits in the Arms and legs should not be fatal, but a hit in the torso or head should be (maybe torso could have a 50-50 chance depending where the hit actually conected but still, that's not the issue here).

Also by having combos it would mean that attacks would have more chances of connecting with each other, meaning more saber contact just like in the movies...

Acrobatics should be improves too... Jumping attack (special for each stance) should become easier to make... meaning, ever tried making the jumping attack and you end up just jumping and attacking in the air? Who wants to roll and attack in the air when there is an enemy in front of you? Pressing "Space+LMB" should always result in the special jumping attack (there could be even a button delay so that if you don't happen to time it exactly right it would still come out). Same for the rest of the acrobatics, wall jumping, climbing, grabbing, etc...

Attacking an enemy on the ground should be possible, but the animation should be WAY faster so that you are not so vulnerable when doing it.

Last but not least... where would the saber throw be?... personally i don't really care about this... i rather have a "defence-mode" than a saber throw after all, where in the moves you see a saber throw? Plus it's not really effective when fighting saber weilders. Anyway, it could be used in any other button so that is not a true problem...

By simplifying the combat system, it would be easier to look good while fighting and it would also be a faster more exciting experience.
I believe this concept would make EVERY battle more fast, more real (jedi-like), better looking and more exciting... after all, how many times you actually get to kill a guy with a flashy cool looking movie-move?? Most of the time is crazy slashing and good timing that gives you the victory...

Hope you like this suggestion/idea... but i must say it's just that. I am not saying this is better than the mod, since the mod is real, this is not. I am not planning for the devs to make this... i am just giving my two cents here. If they like it and think it might work, fine use it... if they don't no harm done... I do support the Mod and think it's great. I honestly doubt this would ever be made since they made so much work in the combat system and keep adding so much i doubt they will start from scratch. But i saw so many new additions to the combat system i don't what it to reach the point you will have to use the manual while playing to remember everything... Remember this is just MHO so please, be polite and respectfull when posting, thanks for your time, and i am really sorry for the long post...

C ya
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Old 03-14-2007, 07:38 PM   #2
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Ok, where to I begin. First off, thanks for taking the time to do such a big review for a newcommer. Most new people just play, can't figure it out because they dont read the manuel or ask anybody, then quit without posting anything. Booooo! LOL

The build you are playing it pretty ancient by our build standards and ALOT has changed since 0.0.9b. The combat in 0.0.9b really isn't that hard once you get past learning how to parry (which is our "block" in many ways and looks like a one handed block). after that, theres just a few things to know to exploit and remember. The autoblock is actually our version of a "hit" that is more realistic. I mean come on, is the sizzling through you that happens in base saber combat realistic considering they live through most of those hits? Don't let the size of the sabermanuel scare you. the reason its big is that its so unique that it takes a bit longer to explain perfectly and I was going for Indepth understanding rather than just the short explaination of things I usually give new players ingame. If you think this combat is hard after you fully understand it, then games like Soul Caliber will terrify you Most people want more after they fully understand our system.

If you think our system is hard in 0.0.9b, just wait till you try 0.0.9r or my code version. We added a balance/mishap meter to control when those stalls (from normal parries in 0.0.9b) and all the other disarms and knockdowns happen so people arent stalling every 2 seconds from a parry and to allow for more comboing, we also made a the attackfake/powerswing and a new attack parry to cash in on your opponents mishap meter. Since parries dont cause those stalls automatically anymore like in 0.0.9b, they are used more as a straight block.

Quote:
-New Saber Styles-
Not really needed... i personally don't like them, the stances aren't really that good looking (no offense) and i don't think they do add too much greatness into the project. The game was fine with the 3 stances for single saber, 2 for dual and 2 for staff... but that is just me...
Hehe, wow your the first person in our entire history of the this forum to want "less" styles. Not going to happen especially since we the styles have particular perks that are useful for certain situations in combat.
Quote:
-AutoDodging/AutoBlocking-
This is weird... on one hand it's pretty good, on the other is kind of boring... i mean, what's the fun in not being able to kill people in all the ways you did before. Technically you still can, but it's way tougher since you need to wait for DP to drop... I am not personally a fun in this autododgin/blocking... and i am glad it was taken out in 009r (or so i was told)...
Its not taken out in r, but it is still playable with it off for the most part. Just use the ojp_allowbodydodge 0 cvar to turn it off. We have this in here for a reason though. there are certain situations where its needed for more enjoyable and long term duels and gunner balance.

Quote:
"More is not always better... in simplicity lies perfection"
Remember all those old arcade games... how simple they where... how basic, and at the same time how addictive and exciting... still now you can get hooked into the fast paced action. Anyone could play them, it was easy, but not everyone could trully mastered them... that is why i think the Mod could become better by being simpler but at the same time more exciting.
The only things that made those old arcade games addictive was trying to get a higher score and even your mom (or any older person) could figure it out and play with you. Aside from that, any remotely seasoned gamer would take Splinter Cell over Pong anyday and thats about 90% of the kind of players that still play JKA. Complexity is fine in todays gaming world, and OJP Enhanced is still on the "less complex" end of most non gun combat systems out there. The only thing that makes it hard is that we have a very original and unfamiliar way of doing our combat.

Quote:
Let's start off with the idea of the "Combat-Mode" this is your default mode... when you join a game you are in this mode. This is the mode you use to fight and attack. All you have to do is press that left mouse button and your Jedi/Sith will start slashing. Even though the fights are good in JKA they are not that movie-like... why? because most moves don't look continious, you slash like crazy and instead of looking like a jedi you look like a kid with a stick trying to hit a "piņata". So... what if the moves where connected??
They already kind of are in our combat. The bounce we have in our collisions is meant to help us combo like in the movies, but you do have to press in a different direction to choose the new swing like in this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Vj4gwn1TAA or even this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nB8iqyjjlxI
thats why we ditched the old MB2 like right mouse block button in favor of our autoblock/parry system. There just wasnt enough swinging or comboing. As for doing actual chain combos that are preset, the JKA overall code isnt set up for it and it would be wwwaaaayyyy more coding than any of use would be willing to do.

As for your other ideas for saber combat, they look pretty good but your about 2 years too late. Razorace is the only one who knows the saber combat code well enough to do that stuff and he's mostly partially retired and trying to finish what we have so far. Our direction that we've taken is solid and has a good following already. Trust us, we've been doing this along time. Once your start to play with one of use for a bit and see the saber system as a single unit like we do, you wont think its that complex. Anyways thanks for your two cents.

Btw, most people are playing my code at the moment since its a bit newer and more balanced. you can get it at the JRHockneys code changes thread. Sorry about the lack of servers, theres some bugs we are trying to iron out but its still very playable. We mostly put them up at IM request so PM me or someone with a server someone your MSN IM address or whatever you have if you want to play and learn this system better.


Game screen name: Master Jon Hoc Ni

UDM Quote: in singapore, gangsters are...skinny jacka**es who think they can 0wn you. they hurl insults at u, and then lose in a fight. n00bs
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Old 03-14-2007, 10:02 PM   #3
rasdel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRHockney*
Hehe, wow your the first person in our entire history of the this forum to want "less" styles. Not going to happen especially since we the styles have particular perks that are useful for certain situations in combat.
Hehe, you know what they say... there's always a first time lol... don't get me wrong... i actually do like the new stances, is just that i am so fond of the original ones they do tend to get "in the way" when switching... but since you said they do have a purpose other that just adding more moves, i will check them out...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRHockney*
The only things that made those old arcade games addictive was trying to get a higher score and even your mom (or any older person) could figure it out and play with you. Aside from that, any remotely seasoned gamer would take Splinter Cell over Pong anyday and thats about 90% of the kind of players that still play JKA. Complexity is fine in todays gaming world, and OJP Enhanced is still on the "less complex" end of most non gun combat systems out there. The only thing that makes it hard is that we have a very original and unfamiliar way of doing our combat.
Mmmm... "the force is strong with this one"... hehehe, You are probably right, i was just trying to use it as a comparison...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRHockney*
Trust us, we've been doing this along time. Once your start to play with one of use for a bit and see the saber system as a single unit like we do, you wont think its that complex.
I do trust you, as i said before after i played it i did like the mod, i just need to get more use to it

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRHockney*
Anyways thanks for your two cents.
Thank you for being so honest and open minded. By the way, do you know where can i find the new version of the MOD? I would really like to test it and help you get rid of bugs and such things, i would appreciate a link, since the one in the sticky seems broken , thanks again
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Old 03-14-2007, 10:14 PM   #4
ensiform
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LoL... When I first saw the title of this post i first thought of the JA+ start up message, we all need more or something like that...


iojamp project lead / coder
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Old 03-14-2007, 10:16 PM   #5
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here are the ones buffy posted for 0.0.9r:

http://www.uploading.com/en/
http://www.mooload.com/new/

And here's the link for mine: http://files.filefront.com//;6848412;;/

The 0.0.9r code is a bit more stable for servers, but its very unbalance for jedi versus gunner combat with the way our new experience system works. My code is a lot more recent and was made to try and balanced those issues with 0.0.9r as well as add new things, but since I'm a pretty crappy coder, I did somethings to just get it to compile that made the server with this code a bit less stable and I can't fix them without Razors help. Most people play with my code at the moment. let me know if you want to duel or something. Just not tonight, I'm out the door.


Game screen name: Master Jon Hoc Ni

UDM Quote: in singapore, gangsters are...skinny jacka**es who think they can 0wn you. they hurl insults at u, and then lose in a fight. n00bs
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Old 03-15-2007, 02:09 AM   #6
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Hi rasdel, stick around with us for a while and you'll get used to OJP's combat system. After that, you won't want to go back to standard JKA or JA+ anymore (no offense to slider)

Like Hockney explained, it looks "complex", but really the mechanics are very easy to explain. Your character appears to block all saber hits even when standing still, but effectively, he is being "hit" and losing DP. I mean it doesn't make sense that even when you're standing still and facing an opponent, you can't block his attacks. And yes base JKA combat is like dancing a ballerina with no skills. To really "block" an attack without losing DP, we call it parrying. This means to smack your opponent off and make him lose his momentum, then turning the tables around and cutting him down. In fact, if you don't parry at all, chances are the opponent will land a chain of combos on you, and you'll die very quickly

The "body dodge" effect is a sign that "dude, you're dying, you need to hightail it out of there fast or at least try to parry one of his attacks and perform a counter combo on him". In other words, your ass is gone if you don't do something FAST

That said, try out the latest beta, it really is an improvement over 009b

There Hockney, are you finally convinced that the casual gamer doesn't want the saber system to be anymore complex?
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Old 03-15-2007, 02:30 AM   #7
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Oh btw you should download 009r here

http://strategy.jediknight.net/jka/m...anced_009r.zip

And then you download Hockney's code changes

Btw Hocks I noticed your code changes had lots of bugs. In the main menu, some of the text for the options when you went into Host Game are missing. Also, some of the stats in-game are missing
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Old 03-15-2007, 03:13 AM   #8
Maxstate
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We needs m0ar time fur testings.

How long did you test the mod?
I think OJP's biggest flaw is lack of players ;p

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Old 03-15-2007, 01:20 PM   #9
rasdel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxstate
We needs m0ar time fur testings.

How long did you test the mod?
I think OJP's biggest flaw is lack of players ;p
Well, you definitely earned a new one here :P... i am downloading the lastest version of the mod right now.

I'll test it and read the manual one more time (the first time i just run through it, i will give it another try). Let's see if i can get a hang of it now... i must admit, the concept is pretty simple to understand, but that manual is intimidating

---EDIT---

Ok, i tried it... i still gotta install Hock's patch but i don't have time for that know since i gotta do some stuff, but here are my first impressions...

1- Saber Styles
Ok, i must admit... they got NOTHING to do with the ones i tested in the "B" version, this actually look VERY GOOD. I must admit i was not a fan of the ones in B they didn't look that great, but this ones... WOW... and i love the names they display when selected... also, how each one adds some very nice new "katta-like" hits... overall... IMPRESSIVE (and i am very picky so believe me when i say... WELL DONE!!!)

2- Combat
Can't comment on this yet, since i don't have time to read the manual yet, i'll comment on it later.

3- Display
Very nice new display, really easy to read, and look good. BUT the only thing i "could" complain is life and shield... even though you can see then, it would be easier to have bars instead of numbers... somehow it's easier to have a notion when seen bars. This is because you don't have to actually focus on the number, you can focus on the battle and with just a glimps at the bar you get the notion of how much you got left (BUT this is a minor detail).

4- BUGS/Stuff to check...
Take into consideration i haven't install Hock's patch so maybe it fixes this stuff...

All i had time to do was DUEL... so... i tried in the rancor's pit first but i appeared without the saber just my bare fists :S... weird, still i won using grab's so that was a cool way to start testing a mod lol...

I believe the main problem is that A LOT of stuff is NOT readable when creating a room (note... i tested it in solo play). All i see in the first section of options is the amount of points to allocate to the force powers, but no "Saber Only" and the other options (they are there you just can't see them).

After creating a room, when trying to select the Force powers, i could NOT since i see the list with the numbers on, but there are no force icons, so i don't know which is which...

Last but not least... and this is problably a noob question, but since i am at it... might get the answer here :P... what is the RBG saber color option... when i select it it's just a white saber, and with even less intensity that the actual white. I thought it was the one you could create your color, but maybe i am wrong...

Anyway, i must admit the MOD is even better that i could expect. Great additions and improvements since "B". Love how easy it is to make the cool jumps and move now (and i haven't read the manual again yet, so i can't imagine how cool it will be to fight when i actully understand EVERYTHING) So keep it up, and i will test it fully later, and keep commenting about it... thanks for the links BTW... and expect to see me in the servers soon... well... actully i better get my skill up, before even trying to duel you guys lol...

Cya

Last edited by rasdel; 03-15-2007 at 02:08 PM.
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Old 03-15-2007, 01:50 PM   #10
Maxstate
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rasdel
Well, you definitely earned a new one here :P... i am downloading the lastest versino of the mod right now.

I'll test it and read the manual one more time (the first time i just run through it, i will give it another try). Let's see if i can get a hang of it now... i must admit, the concept is pretty simple to understand, but that manual is intimidating
The system is easy, I explain it to the noobs I train like yay:

Attack from left = move left
Attack from right = move right
Up = back
Down = forwards

Imagine that everything under your knees is down, your torso is just left and right and your head and shoulders are up.

So if I hit you high and right - on the right side of your head, from your eyes - you move back (because back is for up) and right (because I hit you on the right side of the head). If I were to hit the right side of your hip, you would move just right.

And if I hit the right side of your knees, you would have to move forwards (because it's a low - down - slash) and right.

Simple once you get the hang of it!

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Old 03-15-2007, 02:53 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Maxstate
So if I hit you high and right - on the right side of your head, from your eyes - you move back (because back is for up)
and here i thaught forwards is up man dont i feel dumb now
well gald you found ur way overhere rasdel. Kouen has been a link deleating nut ever since he got admin over a filefront.

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Old 03-15-2007, 06:38 PM   #12
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Quote:
1- Saber Styles
Ok, i must admit... they got NOTHING to do with the ones i tested in the "B" version, this actually look VERY GOOD. I must admit i was not a fan of the ones in B they didn't look that great, but this ones... WOW... and i love the names they display when selected... also, how each one adds some very nice new "katta-like" hits... overall... IMPRESSIVE (and i am very picky so believe me when i say... WELL DONE!!!)
These are max's anim replacements, alot of which are based on tarcee's anim replacements for FM3. Unfortunately, if you play with them on your server, you'll notice of animation freeze bugs with certain collisions with makashi and juyo. The fix I made for it in my code was to revert back to the old anims You can still use maxes anims in mine, but you have to play on a server that has the old anims and ask max for a animation .cfg for your client side. That way you can play max's with no bugs.

Quote:
Btw Hocks I noticed your code changes had lots of bugs. In the main menu, some of the text for the options when you went into Host Game are missing. Also, some of the stats in-game are missing
that shouldn't be right. did you get my newest version that jack uploaded at my thread? its just one pk3 now that you replace both enhanced pk3s with.


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UDM Quote: in singapore, gangsters are...skinny jacka**es who think they can 0wn you. they hurl insults at u, and then lose in a fight. n00bs
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Old 03-15-2007, 08:54 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by JRHockney*
These are max's anim replacements, alot of which are based on tarcee's anim replacements for FM3. Unfortunately, if you play with them on your server, you'll notice of animation freeze bugs with certain collisions with makashi and juyo. The fix I made for it in my code was to revert back to the old anims You can still use maxes anims in mine, but you have to play on a server that has the old anims and ask max for a animation .cfg for your client side. That way you can play max's with no bugs.
Ok, for now i will only fight bots... at least as long as i feel i am up for a true challenge. But i got a lot to test in the combat system... BTW r u planning to keep the old animations? Or you will try fixing max's anims?? Just wondering by the way...
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Old 03-15-2007, 09:21 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rasdel
Ok, for now i will only fight bots... at least as long as i feel i am up for a true challenge. But i got a lot to test in the combat system... BTW r u planning to keep the old animations? Or you will try fixing max's anims?? Just wondering by the way...
Well, I my self will not be able to fix them. Razors the only one who might be able to. I can host a server with the old one so you can use max's whenever you want to fight with them. If you want me to set up a server, PM me your IM address if its MSN or AIM and we'll go from there. I'll teach you all the advanced techniques...but not tonight, I have stuff to do.


Game screen name: Master Jon Hoc Ni

UDM Quote: in singapore, gangsters are...skinny jacka**es who think they can 0wn you. they hurl insults at u, and then lose in a fight. n00bs
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Old 03-15-2007, 09:53 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by rasdel
Ok, for now i will only fight bots
ok just make sure to use the Tabbots since they will use the new saber stuff

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Old 03-16-2007, 02:31 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madcatmach2
ok just make sure to use the Tabbots since they will use the new saber stuff
Most definitely. The normal bots suck.


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Old 03-16-2007, 04:18 AM   #17
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Do play on co-op. NPCs provide more epic fights compared to bots. Plus, if you find yourself dying a lot by bots' blades, you'll feel better after fighting NPCs ^^
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Old 03-16-2007, 04:39 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rasdel
I believe the main problem is that A LOT of stuff is NOT readable when creating a room (note... i tested it in solo play). All i see in the first section of options is the amount of points to allocate to the force powers, but no "Saber Only" and the other options (they are there you just can't see them).

After creating a room, when trying to select the Force powers, i could NOT since i see the list with the numbers on, but there are no force icons, so i don't know which is which...

Last but not least... and this is problably a noob question, but since i am at it... might get the answer here :P... what is the RBG saber color option... when i select it it's just a white saber, and with even less intensity that the actual white. I thought it was the one you could create your color, but maybe i am wrong...
Glad ya liked it!

RGB colours: yup it's supposed to be a color creator. Strange problem you have there

In fact, there are supposed to be wordings and numbers in the menus u mentioned above, but I couldn't see them either. Weird! It worked for me last time before my PC came crashing down

Sorry Hockney, I thought that problem laid with your code changes, but I was wrong =\
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Old 04-18-2007, 07:35 AM   #19
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The animation freezes have been fixed in the new version of the animations and have been added to the repository.

I won't take any credit; Ace found the solution, I just tried some numbers ingame and found the ones that worked.


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Old 04-18-2007, 03:26 PM   #20
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That's still a significant part of the fix, Max. Don't put yourself down.


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Old 04-18-2007, 07:37 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by razorace
That's still a significant part of the fix, Max. Don't put yourself down.
HOORAY FOR MAX!!!! WORTHY OF A STRONGBAD DANCE!!!


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Old 04-19-2007, 03:22 AM   #22
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lololol I'm just glad we can finally use all 5 stances again without getting frustrated to kingdom come But I appreciate the strongbad dances ;p

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Old 04-19-2007, 08:21 AM   #23
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Looks my TLC on Max has paid off (L)

Oh wait (L) only works on MSN
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