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Old 06-07-2007, 10:28 PM   #41
Jae Onasi
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It bears repeating that researchers have found a way to create ESCs without killing embryos.

Achilles--I didn't say 'a lot of embryos are adopted out'. Many, if not most, are not adopted out. I just said it's available. A person is a person as soon as they have independent DNA in a living, independent cell. Saying a child isn't living because it needs to be sustained in a uterus for awhile is like saying someone on a ventilator isn't alive because they need machines to breath for them. You can't have it both ways.

The reason I haven't addressed the 'where would ESC research be without the restrictions' is because it's sheer speculation. We don't know where it would be at. We could divert all money from ASC in favor of ESC and still have absolutely no effective treatments derived from ESC, or we could have a lot. So that question is not very relevant--it's a crap shoot and that's it.

Where would adult stem cell research be at if we had diverted those research dollars to ESC research? That I do know--we would not be nearly as far ahead as we are now in effective medical treatments. With all the embryonic stem cell lines we do have in the US and all the research going on in the rest of the world, if it was going to have some kind of beneficial outcome, we should have seen _something_ by now.

Adult stem cells are easy to harvest--it's done routinely in bone marrow transplants all the time. Other types of adult stem cells are likewise relatively easy to obtain. While 1 adult stem cell can't differentiate into every single kind of cell, the combination of different adult stem cells will differentiate into all the different cell types.

The point is moot anyway if they can derive ESC without killing an embryo. I don't have an objection to ESC research itself, I have an objection to killing embryos to get those stem cells.


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Old 06-08-2007, 12:01 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
DI, that's the exact same "good news" Totenkopf posted.
Not exactly. The first article was about the politics of the funding issue and the second about a new possible breakthrough at the scientific level that could render the political battles moot by obviating the "need" to destroy embryos to continue research on potential cures.


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Old 06-08-2007, 12:39 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
A person is a person as soon as they have independent DNA in a living, independent cell.
Pish posh. They have literally no intelligence, don't have a heart rate, are incapable of feeling pain, and are for all intents and purposes about as human as a clump of dirt only a few days after conception.

Before you bring up how its "soul" makes it human - we're dealing with science, not religion. If something cannot be seen, felt, touched, heart, or sensed in any other way, I do not believe it should have any place in a field of study that revolves completely around the physical. Science is a field independent of Christianity. I think it seems utterly ridiculous to attempt to force Christian values upon it when the people participating it aren't even all Christians. Strikes me as violating the separation of church and state (and the Constitution) when laws are passed solely for religious reasons.

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Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
Saying a child isn't living because it needs to be sustained in a uterus for awhile is like saying someone on a ventilator isn't alive because they need machines to breath for them.
Biased way to put it. See my above statement on the lack of any human characteristics...


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Old 06-08-2007, 01:13 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Pish posh. They have literally no intelligence, don't have a heart rate, are incapable of feeling pain, and are for all intents and purposes about as human as a clump of dirt only a few days after conception.

Before you bring up how its "soul" makes it human - we're dealing with science, not religion. If something cannot be seen, felt, touched, heart, or sensed in any other way, I do not believe it should have any place in a field of study that revolves completely around the physical. Science is a field independent of Christianity. I think it seems utterly ridiculous to attempt to force Christian values upon it when the people participating it aren't even all Christians. Strikes me as violating the separation of church and state (and the Constitution) when laws are passed solely for religious reasons.
Since when is respect for life limited to the religious? I would think atheists would be even more respectful of life or its potential and not want to rob someone of their chance to experience it.


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Biased way to put it. See my above statement on the lack of any human characteristics...
Guy in a coma on a respirator--doesn't feel, doesn't communicate, doesn't have any functioning intelligence--has about as much a heartbeat as a 10 week old embryo--how is that different?


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Old 06-08-2007, 02:02 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
Since when is respect for life limited to the religious? I would think atheists would be even more respectful of life or its potential and not want to rob someone of their chance to experience it.
With that logic it's murder to use condoms when having sex, or even not yelling "Want to give someone the gift of life and have a good time?" to strangers. A person can't miss what they won't ever experience (life).

No, I think it's quite clear in the mindset of most atheists that it isn't murder to use totally non-sentient and non-living clumps of cells to save lives. Since most of us don't consider embryos humans (or even animals) it's not even murder.

However, there is no doubt as to the fact that the main reasons Christians and other religious folk consider it "murder" is because of this mysterious, immeasurable and undetectable "soul." It's only because of the whole "babies get souls the minute mommy and daddy have sex" idea that they don't consider abstaining from sex a form of murder.

I highly doubt you'll deny that physically and mentally a 3-day old egg has nothing in common with humans. If you go along with the whole "it's a potential life" idea, that can be applied to the "birth control prevents potential lives" idea (which you disagree with) and would contradict your other opinions. The only logical reason you can feel the embryo is a human is because of its "soul," clearly a religious reason that has no place amongst an nonreligious field with nonreligious practitioners. My previous post on separation of church and state and why religion-based laws are bad...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
Guy in a coma on a respirator--doesn't feel, doesn't communicate, doesn't have any functioning intelligence--has about as much a heartbeat as a 10 week old embryo--how is that different?
Other than the fact that he has loved ones who don't want to see him die, not much. Clearly that isn't the case with women giving away embryos by their own free will.


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Old 06-08-2007, 08:54 AM   #46
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To be completely blunt, isn't there brain waves in an embryo before the tenth week? Seems to me one could argue the embryo is alive once there is brain waves.
Because signs of motor functions occur earlier than week 10, while measurable brainwaves are sometime later, one has to bear in mind that one is trying to measure brainwave activity through the mother's womb.

Another argument against embryo stem cell research is that it has been shown that umbilical cords from a newborn also have stem cells that can be used instead of embryonic stem cells. That means there are other ways to get stem cells without having to go out and kill embryos. So I am completely against harvesting stem cells from embryos and aborted fetuses (in many cases done after it can be done legally barring danger to mother has been discovered now occur still by abortion clinics) we're looking at the possibility of people getting pregnent and get paid to have abortions so people can harvest stem cells. So in all honesty I'm going to go for an actual complete ban of harvesting embryonic stem cells, there are other ways to get stem cells in large amounts without destroying life.

Before anyone accuses me of not caring about people with debilitating conditions that stem cells could be possibily used to cure, I had a grandfather with Parkinsons whom passed away a few years ago. While I would have loved to see him cured, he wouldn't have wanted unborn infants to die which is arguably what an embryo is, while they can't survive on their own, a newborn can't either without someone taking care of it are we going to say next that babies aren't people? One could then argue this about toddlers, and then children under 10.

So I'm going to support President Bush's decision to veto this latest House bill, because quite frankly there are other ways to get stem cells like a newborn's umbilical cord that has to be cut off after birth anyways.
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Old 06-08-2007, 09:24 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
With that logic it's murder to use condoms when having sex, or even not yelling "Want to give someone the gift of life and have a good time?" to strangers. A person can't miss what they won't ever experience (life).
Using birth control controls my own cells (eggs) or Jimbo's (sperm). They haven't yet combined to become 'someone else different from us.' Therefore, it's not murder.
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Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
No, I think it's quite clear in the mindset of most atheists that it isn't murder to use totally non-sentient and non-living clumps of cells to save lives. Since most of us don't consider embryos humans (or even animals) it's not even murder.
Actually, the cells _are_ alive. If they were non-living, they wouldn't split, change, and develop into people.
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Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
However, there is no doubt as to the fact that the main reasons Christians and other religious folk consider it "murder" is because of this mysterious, immeasurable and undetectable "soul." It's only because of the whole "babies get souls the minute mommy and daddy have sex" idea that they don't consider abstaining from sex a form of murder.
That may be for others, but it's not exclusively that issue for me. I don't like the slippery slope that develops of using someone else's life, or potential life, for my gain. I'm not comfortable with those ethics. Where do you draw the line at stopping experimentation? I mean, Barbara Boxer says it's not a baby until you take it home. Someone like that would consider experimentation even after the baby's born acceptable, because they aren't a person yet. Since the embryo is a separate entity from conception, it's a definitive starting point. I'm not comfortable with the start of life being determined wherever the 'general consensus' determines it should be.
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Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
I highly doubt you'll deny that physically and mentally a 3-day old egg has nothing in common with humans.
Yeah, I will say the embryo has something in common with humans--he or she has his/her own DNA and functioning cell processes.
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Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
If you go along with the whole "it's a potential life" idea, that can be applied to the "birth control prevents potential lives" idea (which you disagree with) and would contradict your other opinions.
See discussion above--what I do with my own eggs and what a guy does with his own sperm is one thing--that's our own genetic material and our own cells. They've not combined into a separate person.
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Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
The only logical reason you can feel the embryo is a human is because of its "soul," clearly a religious reason that has no place amongst an nonreligious field with nonreligious practitioners. My previous post on separation of church and state and why religion-based laws are bad...
The 'separation of church and state' is very specific, and says that the state will not endorse a specific religion. Jefferson never intended for his letter to be used as it is today, which is to try to stomp religion out of public life because radical atheists 'don't like it'. My definition of life is pretty basic and doesn't have anything to do with religion. It's just not as 'convenient' for some whose ethics on this issue are far looser than mine.

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Other than the fact that he has loved ones who don't want to see him die, not much. Clearly that isn't the case with women giving away embryos by their own free will.
So what if he's a hermit with no family and friends? Does that devalue his life more?


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Old 06-09-2007, 07:46 AM   #48
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Now, I will say upfront that I am not of a very valuable opinion at all for a few reasons.
1# I care little about human life but those I choose to care about.
2# I have never had children and do not plan to.
3# I believe women should have abortion rights and women should have control over their own body legally, including the baby inside them.

Now, onto stem cells.

I don't have a full understanding, but from what I gather it is using the cells in embryos to further scientific research. The main debate is wether to use them for science, or let them live as humans.

I find this debate odd for a few reasons. The thousands, if not millions of embryos that are being kept from being used for stem cells are just sitting, frozen in labs around the world. If we choose to not use them, they get destroyed. If we use them, they go to a purpose. The pro-life debate on this is flawed for that reason.The embyos will be destroyed either way. You cannot put all of those embryos into women, it is just not possible. Or rather, it is possible but you can't get that many volunteers. You make it illigal or just stop it, they die anyway. Please, put their "lives" to use instead of destroying them for no reason.

Some believe it will lead to mass abortions or something stupid. I personally believe that the law has no right to a womans body and a baby is apart of her body until the baby is out or at least in advanced development. She wants to get an abortion? Fine by me, its not my baby or body and if you feel you cannot handle something as VASTLY, and I mean VASTLY, complicated and hard as a baby then go ahead. I have seen enough people raised by idiot parents.

As for my view, I consider an embryo in the same category as a -severely- retarded or person in a vegitative stage. All three have no concept of reality, have no way of communication, and have limited to no brain power. You can argue with me that an egg is a human once fertilized, but I care for an embyo in the beginning stages as much as I care about the egg that is destroyed during my period.

You care about babies and embryos so much? I really hope you don't eat chicken eggs or the eggs off of any other birth. I have not had termites or ants killed and their eggs destroyed. Problem with this? People consider humans to be above or not even animals. Laughable statement. Humans are animals, we just don't like other animals. If you care so much about a baby, then STOP eating, killing, or adopting the babies of other animals. Period.

Should all humans, embryo or not, live a full life? From a humane perspective, yes. All people deserve the right to live, regardless of circumstance. I know a few people who have said that their parents considered abortions who are great friends to this day. Using people as puppets for science seems cruel, but then again we do use animals as puppets. Fancy that.

From a natural perspective, which is the one I mainly follow, nope. The world is overcrouded with humans anyway. We spread like a virus everywhere and are slowly destroying this world, a few less of us being born would be a good thing. A problem is we consider ourselves to be above other animals, humanity's and many Religion's greatest fault. We are animals by all definition, the only differences between us is the fact we know we are going to die and we have sex for pleasure. Having sex for pleasure I think makes us more animal like, not less.

How does this tie in? We use baby animals and animals all the time for scientific gain, fun, pleasure, pets, etc. A baby is just another animals from a natural perspective. A carnivor is not going to look at a baby alone and say "nope it's a human baby. Better not touch it." No, it eats the baby just as many animals eat their young.

Humans care vastly VASTLY about babies. It's a little funny how much we care. The incredible irony of this is that once the baby is born and out of the mother, people other than the family don't give a damn about it anymore and move onto raving about the next baby.

It's just an embryo. I probably sound really cruel saying that, but it's just that. It is an egg that has been fetilized, on its way to becoming a human but not quite there yet. It has no brain, and thus no "soul" in a scientific perspective to a degree in my opinion. I feel no need to consider an embryo as anything special until it at least devops into something resembling a human, and even then I only care about humans I choose to care a about. I am far too jaded about the world to see people as anything less than the ants I see walking around everyday.

I feel that Jae is going to use the "little bit pregnant" thing on me. I got nothing much to say to that but that she is right. So, it is a life. I still don't really care about it, and I wont pretend like I will. The woman has as much control over that baby as she has over her own body, and I ABSOLUTELY REFUSE to be refered to as an incubator if I ever get pregnant. If she wants to give it up to science, go ahead. Chances are you and I will have never met the person anyway if they had grown up and they would simply be another person using up space... as we all are. Terrible mind I have, don't I? Never did understand the unconditional love that people like to have for all other people, especially when they think the world can be defined in "good" and "bad".

Maybe if I consider having a child my view will change, maybe not. But for now, regardless of what I think, all of those embryos are going to die regardless, making this entire arguement revolving around the fact if we should kill them outright or use them for science and possbly save millions of lives in the process.

Oh, and don't feel bad for using humans for personal gain. We have most of our medical information due to the holocaust and World War II anyway. Proving that all actions have an equally "good" and "bad" reaction.

Anyway, thats my 2 cents. I wrote this at 4 in the morning, so feel free to tell me what I said wrong or overstepped in.
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Old 06-09-2007, 03:21 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
Using birth control controls my own cells (eggs) or Jimbo's (sperm). They haven't yet combined to become 'someone else different from us.' Therefore, it's not murder.
How? With the cells feel any pain when they die? With they feel emotionally unsettled? No. It's just as much a form of murder as swatting a fly, if not less of them. At least the fly can miss existence since it's experienced it.

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Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
Actually, the cells _are_ alive.
When they are incapable of thought or emotion I would hesitate to label them alive in the same manner we are.

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Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
That may be for others, but it's not exclusively that issue for me. {baby murder} I'm not comfortable with the start of life being determined wherever the 'general consensus' determines it should be.
Irrelevant to this topic. We're talking about embryos the donors likely had no intention of turning into children.

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Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
Yeah, I will say the embryo has something in common with humans--he or she has his/her own DNA and functioning cell processes.
So do houseflies and vermin. It's their sentient mind that makes humans humans, not the fact they're composed of organic material.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
See discussion above--what I do with my own eggs and what a guy does with his own sperm is one thing--that's our own genetic material and our own cells. They've not combined into a separate person.
Arguably it's still as much a form of murder as using condoms or taking a morning afterpill. You've caused the fetus just as much emotional land physical pain, and you've gotten rid of a potential life.

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Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
The 'separation of church and state' is very specific, and says that the state will not endorse a specific religion.
That's definitely hard to do when nearly all members of the state are followers of that religion and a good number of them fundamentalists. Quite easy to pass a religious law for a non-religious matter when that happens.

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Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
Jefferson never intended for his letter to be used as it is today, which is to try to stomp religion out of public life because radical atheists 'don't like it'.
What do you mean by 'stomping it out of public life'? If it's things like having monuments to Christ erected on public public property, I would agree with the atheists.

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Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
So what if he's a hermit with no family and friends? Does that devalue his life more?
Unapplicable situation. How would a friendless and family-less hermit go into a coma and get put on life support?


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Old 06-09-2007, 03:54 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
How? With the cells feel any pain when they die? With they feel emotionally unsettled? No. It's just as much a form of murder as swatting a fly, if not less of them. At least the fly can miss existence since it's experienced it.
Well, when one considers the fact that the fly as no ability to realise that it is alive - its sensory perceptions are for living, surviving, and reproducing... just as our own ones are (but that's beside the point) - it has no ability to miss being alive .

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When they are incapable of thought or emotion I would hesitate to label them alive in the same manner we are.
Your definition of life is obviously a very... unscientific one, ED. The cells respire, they replicate, they do all the wonderful things that living things do.

If I may take the risk of entering this discussion?

I understand where you come from on this matter, Jae, but I also disagree with a lot of what you are saying - perhaps having children of my own, one day, will change my perspective; I don't know. I think that stem cell research is very, very important to enhancing our understanding of genetic disorders and how to treat them successfully - and as far as I have gathered, you agree with this assessment.

However, I do have to ask the question: what is the difference between an undifferentiated, totipotent zygote and an undifferentiated, totipotent umbilical cord cell is? Surely, because both the cell types are non-specialised, they both have the potential to be a human being - both given the right conditions? And the business of turning normal body cells into stem cells: surely that is creating the potential for a new, human life then destroying it?

My understanding of this area, however, is limited so feel free to strip away the illusion of knowledge and throw a book/source/site at me .
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Old 06-09-2007, 03:57 PM   #51
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Unapplicable situation. How would a friendless and family-less hermit go into a coma and get put on life support?
I seen a video in my Bioethics class where that actually happened. A friendless and family-less female person who spoke Spanish had a medical problem and was given to a Hospice where she was treated and given a feeding tube. So they went looking for the persons who are firends or family of that hermit.

There was a boyfriend of that hermit, and the boyfriend wants to keep that person alive, with a feeding tube. However, the doctors did not want that. They let the feeding tube stay in the person, and she never totally recovered. She still needs help, and the boyfriend left her. However, now, she is able to say that she wants to stay alive, therefore, the doctors cannot end treatment. They later transfered her to some other place, made it someone else's problem.

And the doctors really wanted her to die.

I'm serious. The doctors who showed this video in the Bioethics class mentioned it to me, mentioned it to the whole class. She said her life was miserable, and she would be better off dead, because then the Hospital would save money, and she would be out of her misery. And I agree with her. But the doctors also note that this is very cold, and I agree too.

There is something in Bioethics called "person's best interest". If you can't find anyone connected to anyone else, then the doctors decide what to do with this female hermit. They would have chosen to end treatment.


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Old 06-09-2007, 08:05 PM   #52
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The issue is there is absolutely no reason to destroy embryos to get stem cells when they can get stem cells from the umbilical cord of a mother whenever a baby is born...
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Old 06-10-2007, 02:53 AM   #53
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Pavlos--the stem cells are harvested from an embryo, but an embryonic stem cell is not the same as an embryo. The stem cells are one of a number of different types of cells that an embryo has, like nerve cells or skin cells, etc. So an umbilical stem cell may be the same as one from an embryo, but that's just a part of the embryo, not the whole embryo.


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Old 06-10-2007, 07:31 AM   #54
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Excuse for wandering in here with comments that may have already been addressed, but stem cells, they can help a lot of people right? We should be doing everything we can to help people shouldn't we? But there's a lot of concern over what this does over the sancity of your soul if this goes ahead? Let's talk about that, could the moral issues over stem cell research be explained to me? Isn't it something about using or killing off body parts, stem cells to encourage strong growth or something?
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Old 06-10-2007, 09:41 AM   #55
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Excuse for wandering in here with comments that may have already been addressed, but stem cells, they can help a lot of people right? We should be doing everything we can to help people shouldn't we? But there's a lot of concern over what this does over the sancity of your soul if this goes ahead? Let's talk about that, could the moral issues over stem cell research be explained to me? Isn't it something about using or killing off body parts, stem cells to encourage strong growth or something?
Currently, the only proven method to extracting embyronic stem cells is to destroy an embryo and harvest its stem cells. Once that happens, you can then test on their stem cells.

The destruction of the embryo is a bad, bad thing according to conservaties and pro-lifers, who claim that an embryo should have rights and not be killed for research purposes. They are calling for the resepct of the life of an embryo. This leads to scienitsts trying to define "life" in stating that one cell in one stage is not living but another cell in a second stage is not living, pro-choicers coming in with their arguments, and these recent experiments to generate stem cells without harming the embryo.


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Old 06-10-2007, 04:39 PM   #56
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Excuse for wandering in here with comments that may have already been addressed, but stem cells, they can help a lot of people right? We should be doing everything we can to help people shouldn't we? But there's a lot of concern over what this does over the sancity of your soul if this goes ahead? Let's talk about that, could the moral issues over stem cell research be explained to me? Isn't it something about using or killing off body parts, stem cells to encourage strong growth or something?

The thing that in my mind makes taking embryonic stem cells from embryos just an excuse to butcher human life is that they can get stem cells from the umbilical cord of a newly born infant. Something that has to be cut from the infant anyways and is then part of the afterbirth. See stem cells without killing embryos.
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Old 06-11-2007, 06:09 AM   #57
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The thing that in my mind makes taking embryonic stem cells from embryos just an excuse to butcher human life is that they can get stem cells from the umbilical cord of a newly born infant. Something that has to be cut from the infant anyways and is then part of the afterbirth. See stem cells without killing embryos.
Well, it looks like this issue is going to be never resolved.
The religious arguing with the atheists.
I won't lose no sleep if stem cell treatment can save someone in my family, from the clutches of death.

This whole argument is ridiculous, but that is my bias opinion.

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Old 06-11-2007, 09:25 AM   #58
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This whole argument is ridiculous
If you think it's ridiculous, don't post in the thread. Otherwise, don't make these characterizations.


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Old 06-11-2007, 10:33 AM   #59
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Isn't this all a moot point now that the skin-cell conversion is possible? Provided that it is viable, it seems to me that it offers a more practical use, given that the minute chance of cell rejection.

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Old 06-11-2007, 12:38 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
If you think it's ridiculous, don't post in the thread. Otherwise, don't make these characterizations.
What you are going to get mad at everything I say, now?
The argument over stem cell debate is about protecting cells, it's ridiculous the religious fight to save cells why people continue to die from horriable diseases.
I lost my grandmother and aunt to the cluthes of death that, if these religious republicans didn't stall stem cell research over the years, they probably could've been saved.

If you don't like how I see it, then I really don't care, Jae.

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Old 06-11-2007, 05:45 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Windu Chi
What you are going to get mad at everything I say, now?
The argument over stem cell debate is about protecting cells, it's ridiculous the religious fight to save cells why people continue to die from horriable diseases.
I lost my grandmother and aunt to the cluthes of death that, if these religious republicans didn't stall stem cell research over the years, they probably could've been saved.

If you don't like how I see it, then I really don't care, Jae.

Trying to remain calm, I'm going to state flat out that I take offense to what you just said. I lost my grandfather due to complications from parkinsons disease, you think I didn't want my grandfather cured. Well get this I did, however I know that my grandfather wouldn't have wanted to be cured at the cost of several human lives that hadn't even been born into the world yet! Republicans haven't stalled stem cell research on adult stem cells or stem cells from umbilical cords, Republicans (myself included) take issue with killing human life for the purpose of research.

What will we have next, clones being grown to be slaughtered for new organs? Slaughtering embryos for the sake of research is a devaluing of human life in my opinion.
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Old 06-11-2007, 06:44 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by GarfieldJL
What will we have next, clones being grown to be slaughtered for new organs? Slaughtering embryos for the sake of research is a devaluing of human life in my opinion.
Pure science fiction. From a business point of view, why grow a clone when you can just grow an organ? Our ability to create new organs that are anything but a sort of callus tissue is limited... but so is our ability to clone a human successfully - you'd need a factory just to get one successful clone, what with the minuscule success rate in these things.

If there is a method as efficient, or effective as extracting stem cells from an embryo then that would be fine and dandy. But until such time as it is as cheap and effective as our current methods, there is no point and no justification in switching over - especially when we run the risk of slowing down vital research. Human life takes priority over potential human life. I know, I have muddled views... it's what I get for being a liberal, humanist student of science (who's also studying English Literature for some reason...).

And shall we leave political parties out of this? The debate is already charged enough without introducing the "I'm a Democrat/Republican/Liberal/Conservative/Standing at the back dressed stupidly and looking stupid party member, thus better than you" element...

Edit: In other words... I have no qualms about stem cell research, or the methods used.

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Old 06-11-2007, 06:55 PM   #63
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I should have voted for Al Gore. Last time Bush didn't win the election, Kerry lost, and I'll be voting Democrats in 08. Okay, I know, not funny.

One of the things that is always muddy for me is that people treat organs or cells as being more important than human life. A fetus takes presidence over a person? In whose eyes? And not to knock people who are against stem cell research for this reason, or enviromentalists for that matter, but this is the same reasoning people such as Earth First and the Sierra group hold, that they are against something such as spiking trees. Not because it would break a chainsaw and potentially kill loggers, no, because that's all it'll do, for them that type of action isn't good enough.
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Old 06-11-2007, 07:09 PM   #64
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I'm against murdering innocent human life just to possibly save a human from some sort of ailment, especially when they can save the human in question without murdering the innocent. Seriously, they can get Stem Cells without even using embryos or fetuses. There are several ways now, it's just people seem to want to cheapen the worth of human life in my view.

Also Bush won in 2000 by the way, there is something called the Electoral College for a reason, so that people that live in states like Rhode Island have a say in whom the President is going to be, that makes it so a few big states doesn't determine whom our President is.
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Old 06-11-2007, 10:58 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by GarfieldJL
Trying to remain calm, I'm going to state flat out that I take offense to what you just said.
You take offense too what I said, I don't care.
That is how I feel about this issue, you must understand that, GarfieldJL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GarfieldJL
I lost my grandfather due to complications from parkinsons disease, you think I didn't want my grandfather cured.
What do you mean, I think I didn't want your grandfather cured.
I don't know you, I don't know your life.

My family mean everything to me, you must understand this.
I don't give a damn about no cells, if they will save someone in my family from the cluthes of death.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GarfieldJL
Well get this I did, however I know that my grandfather wouldn't have wanted to be cured at the cost of several human lives that hadn't even been born into the world yet!
I'm a open-minded individual I do believe in souls, but I think when the brain is formed the soul maybe come into existence, wherever the hell it comes from.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GarfieldJL
Republicans haven't stalled stem cell research on adult stem cells or stem cells from umbilical cords, Republicans (myself included) take issue with killing human life for the purpose of research.
Yeah, but adult stem cells has not bared no fruit.
Also won't the religious be concern about the life of adult stem cells, since they believe cells are alive and worth saving.

This seems to be a bit ironic, you know.


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Originally Posted by GarfieldJL
What will we have next, clones being grown to be slaughtered for new organs?
Hmm, I figure that the religious would consider clones souless, since they believe their god can only insert souls in life.
Now, I will be against that if that happen; hell no on the slaughtering of clones for new organs.
But I will like to have a clone, it seems a clone will be the only one that understands me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarfieldJL
Slaughtering embryos for the sake of research is a devaluing of human life in my opinion.
Yeah, thats your opinion, but if God is so powerful should it have the ability, not to allow that to happen?
Heh, I thought it was all powerful and all knowing, should it know to take the souls out of embryos, that who's life become at risk?

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Old 06-11-2007, 11:32 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Windu Chi
My family mean everything to me, you must understand this.
I don't give a damn about no cells, if they will save someone in my family from the cluthes of death.
Death is as much a part of life as any other life event. Stem cells are not going to be the cure-all and won't make death go away. You can be angry at death, or you can enjoy life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Windu Chi
Yeah, but adult stem cells has not bared no fruit.
Also won't the religious be concern about the life of adult stem cells, since they believe cells are alive and worth saving.
This seems to be a bit ironic, you know.
Adult stem cells won't turn into another separate life.

Adult stem cell research has absolutely bore fruit. A _lot_ of fruit. See a previous post on that for all the results that have come out of _adult_ stem cell research--bone marrow transplants for cancer patients being one of the biggest uses right now out of the dozens of different treatments derived from adult stem cells.


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Old 06-11-2007, 11:56 PM   #67
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Exclamation

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Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
Death is as much a part of life as any other life event. Stem cells are not going to be the cure-all and won't make death go away. You can be angry at death, or you can enjoy life.
I'm sorry to disappoint you, Jae.
But I don't enjoy my present life now.
I'm not as happy go lucky about my life as you seem to be.

Also I don't think stem cells will cure all, but the possibility of new organ growth, bone growth etc.
Is a very tempting prospect.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
Death is as much a part of life as any other life event. Stem cells are not going to be the cure-all and won't make death go away.
You must realize, I believe that absolutely nothing is impossible, so...death will meet it's end one day.
Looking from my perspective!
We just aren't going to come to an agreement on this issue, Jae.


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Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
Adult stem cells won't turn into another separate life.
Well, I'm ignorant of that, but I will look it up and get a scientific understanding of it.
I study mathematics and physics, biology rarely.

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Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
Adult stem cell research has absolutely bore fruit. A _lot_ of fruit. See a previous post on that for all the results that have come out of _adult_ stem cell research--bone marrow transplants for cancer patients being one of the biggest uses right now out of the dozens of different treatments derived from adult stem cells.
If that is the case, then why do I continue to see the religious battling the atheists over this issue?
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Old 06-12-2007, 12:32 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Windu Chi
I'm sorry to disappoint you, Jae.
But I don't enjoy my present life now.
I'm not as happy go lucky about my life as you seem to be.
Well, life isn't always great for me, either, Windu, but it is way too short to dwell on the crap and miss out noticing and enjoying the good parts. Check out Leo Buscaglia. Being angry at the world takes way too much work.

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Originally Posted by Windu Chi
You must realize, I believe that absolutely nothing is impossible, so...death will meet it's end one day.
Looking from my perspective!
We just aren't going to come to an agreement on this issue, Jae.
a. why do we have to come to an agreement?
b. death may meet its end one day, but the probability that death will be eliminated in our lifetimes is extraordinarily small, so I'm going to work with what I've got now.

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Originally Posted by Windu Chi
If that is the case, then why do I continue to see the religious battling the atheists over this issue?
The fundamental issue isn't the stem cells themselves. The fundamental issue is the definition of life and when it starts or stops, and the right to life. A secondary issue is the possible effects on abortion rights.


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Old 06-12-2007, 12:55 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
Well, life isn't always great for me, either, Windu, but it is way too short to dwell on the crap and miss out noticing and enjoying the good parts.
Well, you should realize from my colorful posts over the past...3 years I have been here, that I don't see the good parts, yet.

Quote:
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Check out Leo Buscaglia. Being angry at the world takes way too much work.
Not the world, the universe, the world alone is far to insignificant, when you are as open-minded as I'm, Jae.

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Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
a. why do we have to come to an agreement?
Well, you know, I'm always prepare to battle aggressively over the issues.

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Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
So I'm going to work with what I've got now.
And I'm going to continue to decipher the secrets of existence, as I do on my spare time at home.

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Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
The fundamental issue is the definition of life and when it starts or stops, and the right to life.
Well, I'm open-minded, so keep it coming.
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Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
A secondary issue is the possible effects on abortion rights.
Now this may come as a surprise, but I'm against that abortion stuff, concerning fetuses.
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Old 06-12-2007, 10:45 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Windu Chi
Well, you should realize from my colorful posts over the past...3 years I have been here, that I don't see the good parts, yet.
The good stuff is there. Sometimes it gets drowned out by the cacophony of nastiness, but if you listen and look for it specifically, you will find it.

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Originally Posted by Windu Chi
Not the world, the universe, the world alone is far to insignificant, when you are as open-minded as I'm, Jae.
OK, substitute 'universe' where I wrote 'world' then. It takes a whole lot of effort to be angry at an entire universe/multiverse/whatever's out there. That's more than I want to expend with the limited time I have on earth.

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Originally Posted by Windu Chi
And I'm going to continue to decipher the secrets of existence, as I do on my spare time at home.
Well, since I got that part figured out already, I can move on to other things.

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Originally Posted by Windu Chi
Now this may come as a surprise, but I'm against that abortion stuff, concerning fetuses.
What's the difference between killing an embryo for stem cells and killing an embryo or fetus in an abortion? They're just as dead either way.


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Old 06-12-2007, 11:40 AM   #71
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Smile

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Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
The good stuff is there. Sometimes it gets drowned out by the cacophony of nastiness, but if you listen and look for it specifically, you will find it.
If I listen!
Heh, girl you sound like a Jedi: Kreia, before she was the betrayer.

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Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
OK, substitute 'universe' where I wrote 'world' then. It takes a whole lot of effort to be angry at an entire universe/multiverse/whatever's out there. That's more than I want to expend with the limited time I have on earth.
That substitution, already had occurred, before the statement existed.

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Well, since I got that part figured out already, I can move on to other things.
Yes, the code breaker I have become.


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Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
What's the difference between killing an embryo for stem cells and killing an embryo or fetus in an abortion? They're just as dead either way.
I don't know, I'm ignorant of biology, Jae.
But I will use philosophy and ponder on that question.
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Old 06-14-2007, 06:38 PM   #72
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I thought that this column from The Indy would be relevant to the discussion.

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Originally Posted by Johann Hari

In the black gloop of down-beat news on global warming and Iraq, we sometimes forget that, in at least one respect, we are living through a shimmering moment of progress that should fill us with awe. The 21st century is - as the science writer Ronald Bailey puts it - an era of Liberation Biology. Every week now, scientists are steadily defusing the diseases that have cut human life short for millennia, and stolen from us the grandparents we never knew or the lovers who died too soon. They are setting us free.

Only yesterday, it was revealed by Yale University scientists that they have been able to make primates with severe Parkinson's disease walk and eat unaided, by injecting them with human neural stem cells. The implications for further research into humans are obvious - and dazzling.

Even those of us who are not privileged to be scientists can get the gist of what is happening. In 1998, researchers were first able to isolate embryonic stem cells - immature cells taken from human embyros.

These cells matter because they have the potential to develop into many different types of tissue. Scientists are now slowly discovering which molecular signals make them develop in different ways. If they can unlock this code - if they can make the cells grow into whatever we need - they will be able to transplant nerve cells into broken spines, making the lame walk. They will be able to inject insulin-producing cells into diabetics. They will be able to generate motor-neurone cells to treat Parkinson's. And on the list goes, each one freeing millions of humans from misery.

But - incredibly- there is a large slice of humanity that stubbornly refuses to see any of this as progress. Instead, they see it as a massacre.

The religious backlash against Liberation Biology has been viciously successful, holding back scientific progress in almost every part of the world. In Nigeria, mullahs have this year successfully prevented the World Health Organisation from finally eradicating polio from the human condition, by claiming the vaccine is part of an "anti-Islamic plot" and ordering their congregations to refuse it.

In the US, President Bush again pledged this week to veto legislation sent to him by Congress that would permit federal funds to be used for stem-cell research. And - lest we Europeans get smug - Britain is about to introduce new laws restricting the development of "hybrid embryos" that will slowly strangle life-saving research.

This is all part of an old story: the conflict between science and religion. For all the prattling by bishops that there is "no incompatibility here", in reality they are based on fundamentally contrasting ways of understanding the world. Science is based on strict empirical observation of the world, and deductions based on reason from it. Faith is based on divine revelation (that is, hallucination), or following the words of men who claim to have experienced it.

This battle has been playing out ever since modern science developed. The religious damned autopsies, organ donation, IVF, and even pasturised milk. Today, they are trying to halt the latest wave of Liberation Biology because they claim that blastocysts - hollow spheres of cells almost invisible to the naked eye - are "human beings," and therefore cannot be harvested for life-saving stem cells.

What fact or reason can they point to, to make this point? There are none. We can see through empirical observation that blastocysts have no brains, no thoughts, no capacity to feel pain. So the religious ignore empirical fact. Instead, they say that an invisible thing called "the soul" magically appears at the moment of conception. How do they know? They just do. Okay?

These beliefs have animated the hardcore evangelical base in the US to fight to retard and suppress research - and they have won. If they can delay research in America - which is the world's laboratory, due to its pro-science Enlightenment constitution - they can do it anywhere.

Scientists have been forced by this backlash into a massive diversion, where they have had to try to use adult stem cells instead. Until recently, it was thought that they are only capable of forming their tissue of origin, making them far more limited. But it seems there has been a breakthrough: researchers at UCLA claimed last month that they have been able to take normal adult tissue cells and reprogramme them to act as embryonic stem cells.

So is there, at last, a chance to dodge this debate with fanatics and make progress? Sadly, it's not that simple. Previous "breakthroughs" in this area have turned out to be dead-ends. And even if this isn't another one, adult stem cells are much harder to harvest at a reasonable cost. It takes human embryonic stem cells 25 days to grow from 10 million cells to 10 trillion cells. It takes adult stem cells two weeks longer, and it takes a hundred times more tissue culture surface to do it. So research based on adult stem cells will be slower, burn up more of the limited research funds - and therefore save fewer lives.

Here in Britain, we have a more subtle problem, with the debate focusing on the plea by scientists to allow them to create "hybrid embryos" - taking an animal egg and injecting it with human DNA. They need to do this because there are so few fully human stem cells to experiment with. At the moment, they are dependent on the cast-offs from IVF. By contrast, acquiring and adapting animal eggs offers an almost unlimited supply.

But a string of tabloid headlines immediately conjured images of "chimpmanzees" and "pig-girls" being made by latter-day Dr Moreaus. One headline shrieked: "Can centaurs and talking pigs be far behind?" This is a pig-ignorant question. At Newcastle University, for example, the team led by Lyle Armstrong wants to use cow eggs to develop treatments for diabetes and paralysis. These are not villains; they are heroes. We should be cheering them on, not throwing obstacles into their paths.

But the Government is doing just that. In December, they announced an outright ban on hybrid embryo research. Last month, they backed off - but only a little. The 1990 Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act - which has covered these issues until now - outlined a few general ethical rules of thumb, but left the science to an independent body of experts to assess. The new legislation junks this approach, instead offering mind-boggling detail outlining very narrow confines within which scientists can operate.

There is none of the openness to new development of the old system; in time, it will choke off innovations in the name of primitive, unfounded fears.

Progress, it seems, never comes without a punch-up. Even the most beautiful advances are fought against, by people speaking in the name of "prophets" who thought demons and witches caused illnesses. Every day they succeed in delaying this research is a day thousands of us die unnecessarily.
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Old 06-14-2007, 07:09 PM   #73
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There is a significant difference here Pavlos, we're talking about murdering innocent humans to potentially save some other group of humans from an ailment. This doesn't have to do with being against scientific advancements, this has to do with the ethical implications. I'm not against using Adult stem cells or stem cells from the umbilical cord for research that in my view is ethical. The idea of slaughtering embryos to harvest stem cells in my view is completely unethical. The ends do not necessarily justify the means.
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Old 06-14-2007, 08:41 PM   #74
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Yeah, I will say the embryo has something in common with humans--he or she has his/her own DNA and functioning cell processes.
And so does my appendix, but nobody cries murder when appendectomies occur. And yeah, my appendix wasn't going to eventually develop into a full-grown person, but it's every bit as aware as a newly fertilized blastocyst.

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See discussion above--what I do with my own eggs and what a guy does with his own sperm is one thing--that's our own genetic material and our own cells. They've not combined into a separate person.
Yet, if you are taking active measures to not get pregnant at every opportunity you are actively working to ensure that your egg (which is half-human) does not receive the opportunity to join with a sperm cell (also half-human) and grow up to experience all of the wonders that life has to offer. It just does not seem rational to believe that a cell goes from not-human to 100% human almost instantly.



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Old 06-14-2007, 08:55 PM   #75
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We're not talking a blastocyst, we're talking an embryo, unlike your appendix an embryo does have motor functions which indicates a functioning nervous system.
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Old 06-15-2007, 12:15 AM   #76
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And so does my appendix, but nobody cries murder when appendectomies occur. And yeah, my appendix wasn't going to eventually develop into a full-grown person, but it's every bit as aware as a newly fertilized blastocyst.
So? Does a person lose his status as a human if he's in a coma? Besides, your appendix is a part of you and has your genetic structure. That's not the same thing at all as a baby, who is a separate person from his/her mother and father.
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Yet, if you are taking active measures to not get pregnant at every opportunity you are actively working to ensure that your egg (which is half-human) does not receive the opportunity to join with a sperm cell (also half-human) and grow up to experience all of the wonders that life has to offer. It just does not seem rational to believe that a cell goes from not-human to 100% human almost instantly.
That's the beauty of a cutoff--at some specific point in time, yes, it goes from not-human to human. When s/he has his or her own unique DNA structure, s/he's no longer my egg or Jimbo's sperm (both of which only have half our DNA anyway (26 singles instead of 26 pairs of chromosomes)). That unborn person has his or her own unique genetic structure separate from either Jimbo or me.

How is that definitive cut-off any different than the irrational methods used to define life in a variety of different ways depending on what a given group feels like making it at that time? What should we use? First heartbeat? First movements? First time s/he sucks a thumb? Pees in the womb? Has distinguishable features? Those in favor of killing embryos justify it by saying 'oh, it's not alive until it takes it's first breath.' How very convenient that one doesn't have to worry about the ethics of experimenting on or killing fetuses when one defines life in whatever way they want to justify actions and prevent the guilt. Conception is the only point where we can definitively establish a cutoff between parents' sperm/eggs and a new person who is distinct from them.


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Old 06-15-2007, 02:30 AM   #77
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We're not talking a blastocyst, we're talking an embryo, unlike your appendix an embryo does have motor functions which indicates a functioning nervous system.
No, actually, this thread is about Stem Cells, not abortion. Stem Cells are harvested from blastocysts.

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So? Does a person lose his status as a human if he's in a coma?
/sigh
Honestly, there is OBVIOUSLY a difference between a collection of cells that can't be seen without a microscope and a fully developed human who has temporarily lost conscious brain functionality. My question to respond, however, would be if you would consider somebody a human if their brain were removed, destroyed, and their body sustained only by machine.

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That unborn person has his or her own unique genetic structure separate from either Jimbo or me.
Possibly not strictly on-topic, but a clone of you wouldn't have a unique genetic structure, does that invalidate it's right to development? Does a blastocyst in your body with your DNA put it in the realm of appendix?

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How is that definitive cut-off any different than the irrational methods used to define life in a variety of different ways depending on what a given group feels like making it at that time?
I don't really see why something like "Neurological activity" is so irrational. The thing that really makes us who we are is our ability to perceive.



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Old 06-15-2007, 04:27 AM   #78
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So? Does a person lose his status as a human if he's in a coma?
Hell nah!
That's cruel Jae, for anybody who believes that.
And I'm not saying that you believe that.




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experimenting on or killing fetuses
Experimenting on or killing fetuses, now that's unacceptable, to me.
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Conception is the only point where we can definitively establish a cutoff between parents' sperm/eggs and a new person who is distinct from them.
This question is still touchy.
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Old 06-15-2007, 09:35 AM   #79
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I don't really see why something like "Neurological activity" is so irrational. The thing that really makes us who we are is our ability to perceive.
Does that mean it's okay to kill an actual baby, not a fetus? Why? That baby cannot perceive anything at all, he's a newborn, and since preception is so important, we can terminate the baby without any moral qualms.

Oh, and it's okay to terminate people who are sleeping. Sleeping people cannot preceive anything. All they have are dreams, but really, that's not preceptions of the outside world, so it does not count. They are unaware. So murdering someone who is walking around, that's bad, but as soon as he goes to sleep, I can now terminate with ease! It's not killing if he does not preceive it, as you say so. I just need to do so steathly, so that the person does not recover his ablity to preceive, but as long as he does not preceive anything, he is not human.

If he's unconsicuss? If he's antheizied? Well, it's okay to terminate then.

Since law should conform to Science, we could decrease the "murder" rate by tensfold, because obivously, it's not murder if the person is unaware it's murder...
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I did not want to intervene in this topic, but I honestly see that statement as being...well, quite strange. Basically, come up with a different reason why the abortion of a fetus is okay, but the murder of a child recently born is not. It seems artibrary that you choose the "ability to preceive" as the key factor to determing if a person is alive or not, and without any justifications, I just feel quite upset.


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Old 06-15-2007, 10:07 AM   #80
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and without any justifications, I just feel quite upset.
If there is neurological activity going on, then there is some manner of perception taking place. That's all I said.

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