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Old 03-20-2007, 09:58 AM   #1
rasdel
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Lightbulb Saber combat styles...

Hello everyone, most of you will remember me from threads like "More is not allways better..." or "My OJP review" [Simpsons Parody :P... yes i am that bored]

I have been playing OJP lately, getting a hang of the combat system and Saber Styles, and here are some thoughts...

All jedi stances look great (prior to Hock's fix since he went back to the old animations which honestly i am not so fond of , but still great job on those fixes)

Have you guys though about making the jedi combat even MORE movie-like. After long battles and duels, and finally getting an idea on how to do things... i gotta tell you, i still find room for improvement.

About the saber styles...

There are currently 5 saber styles, which i find good, but what about making the 7 JEDI stances available??? And making it so that when one plays the style, one get's that styles advantages and disadvantages... The seven styles of the saber are:

FORM 1: Shii-Cho
FORM 2: Makashi
FORM 3: Soresu
FORM 4: Sokan
FORM 5: Shien
FORM 6: Jar'Kai
FORM 7: Juyo

Anyway, even though there are some of this in the actual OJP there are not represented as they trully should... meaning one of my favorite poses and one of the most, if not the most defensive style, the "Soresu" is not represented as it actually look in the movie, therefore, i encourage you to improve the looks of the saber styles and increase their number to the actual 7.

Juyo could be only available for the saber-staff (since is mainly the one Maul uses in EPI). Even though it can be used with 1 sword, this would be a way to simplify the single saber selection, so the player does not have to go through ALL 7 forms, when selecting his saber style...

Jar'Kai could be only available for Dual Sabers (same reason as above)...

Maybe saber staff could have 3 of the 7 styles... same as Dual Saber, even though each will have 1 unique style (Juyo and Jar'Kai respectively) and then single saber could have 5 styles (3 being unique for the single saber)... It's basically the same except for increasing the saber styles number and getting closer to what the actually look.
HERE IS A LINK TO A WIKI SITE THAT EXPLAINS EACH FORM AND SHOWS SOME PICTURES ON MOST OF THEM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightsaber_Combat

Next, the defensive play of the saber...
After playing the mod, and testing other mods "in the market" i ended up with a conclusion... i trully believe that combat can be enhanced by simplyfying it... [if against any rule, delete this]I tested the Movie Battles II mod, and since i realized one of the actual founders of OJP is in it... and saw a very interesting combat system. Still it lacks a lot of the features that make OJP great, but at the same time it have some others that OJP could have... and doesn't... here are the things that i saw that could make OJP battles better

-Saber Defend Stance-
I still think that accesing a manual Defensive Stance would make battles more fast and better.

Pressing and Holding the RMB would make the saberist enter Defensive Stance, where his DP/Block gauge recharges and takes the damage his HP would take instead, each effective block drains DP/Block points. Pretty much as it is now, except the defensive stance is access by pressing and holding RMB, instead of moving using the keys. This will make blocking less tedious, and simplyfing it for those player who lag when playing (after all everyone diserves to have fun when playing OJP). Again, when in Defensive Stance you cannot run, only walk.
NOTE: When down or dissarm pressing this button will activate the dodge move, making it more tactical.
NOTE2:The interesting part about having a Defensive Stance that is accessible by holding a button, is the SABER VOLLEY, if you can quickly enter defensive stance and defend pretty much every attack (as long as your DP/Block Gauge holds... players will be able to see some impressive volleys in action, that would only increase the greatness of OJP)

-Saber Offensive Stance-
You are in it all the time, unless you are pressing the RMB. Each style has 3 different unit attacks (Vertical Slash, Horizontal Slash & Strong Slash) and 3 common to all styles attacks (Ground Attack, Jumping attack and Roll Attack).

Vertical Slash: the saberist performs an attack from left to right or viceversa. Access by pressing either right/left and the LMB.
Horizontal Slash: "Chop Attack", either from high to low or viceversa. Access by pressing either forward(high)/back(low) and LMB.
Strong Slash:"Thrust Attack", a powerfull, even slow attack that pulls the saberist towards his enemy, this attack could be use as a "combo finishing/starter move" (explained below). Access by pressing LMB (ergo, standing still and attacking). This could also be the Kick instead, even though the kick could be access in some other way, either with a new button or something like that...
[b]Comboing Attacks:[b]Each of the 2 vertical and the horizontal attacks can be comboed indefinitely, as long as you got Force and you press a different attack (ex: going from left, to right, to high, to low, etc... pretty much as it is right now) as long as you got Force and you press a different arrow you will keep slashing.
NOTE:you can end this either by stop attacking or pressing the LMB without any other key for a cool finishing move (unique for each saber style).
Common Attacks: Ground Attack, Jump Attack & Roll Attack. Jumping is the only one that could look different depending on the Style (staff would keep it's attack, dual too... single saber has 2 jumping moves, the YELLOW and the RED, YELLOW could be used for the first 3 styles, while RED could be use for 4 & 5). All three common attacks should be enhanced in speed so that the duelist does not get into a vulnerable state for such a long time.
NOTE: In this style, players can run but it will affect their combat, this will give the battle a more agressive look on the attacker, and a more defensive carefull look on the defender while keeping the actual code for "running=more DP/Force usage". Pretty much like Anaking runs after Dokuu or Obi-wan in EP3... in other words... it basically stays as it is... you can run, but you will get penilized

-Force Powers-
Force powers should be reduced... in number and only leaving those that are trully usefull in combat. Meaning...
Neutral Force Powers: Force Jump, Push ,Sense AND Saber Throw should be available for both sides. Saber Throw only available for staff when in "Single Saber" mode.
Light Side Powers: Mind Trick, Absorb
Dark Side Powers: Grip, Lightning
Why only 2 per side?... here's why... this are the most common movie-like powers, plus they are clearly counter by other available powers.
Mind-Trick could be counter by Sense
Grip by Push
Lightning by Absorb
and Absorb even though not counterable can only work as long as you got Force points.
*Other powers like Heal, Protect, Drain, etc... could unbalace the stakes so we could leave those behind.

-Things that still should stay in OJP-
Saber locks, the more the better... saber locks are always cool... they don't need to be decicive in a battle, but there should happen every now and then just for coolness and movie-like experience. There should be 2 types:
Fast Locks: fast locks should happen every now and then, and could be only for visual purposes. This should be a fast lock with a random winner and no possitive nor negative effect on either sabersist, meaning it doesn't matter who wins, it's just there to break monotony in the combat...
Slow Locks:This are the ones that actually matter, since this are the true locks, this locks are the ones that might determine the battle winner... winning this will "stun/unbalance" your enemy if their DP level is high enough they will loose balance making the vulnerable (can counter this by entering Defensive Stance/RMB as soon as you saber is move out of the way). If DP is high the Vertical Lock will knock them down (they can still stand up fast and block the next attack by pressing the RMB), the Horizontal Lock on the other hand will push their saber asside leaving an oppening ready for a hit (still, if high in defense the recovery time can be reduce by pressing RMB). If the DP level is low though he will be killed when losing the lock, since the recovery time will be more long.
And of course all the other things that where stated above, that already are implemented in OJP...

I believe that with this kind of changes the battles will be faster and will take more skill. Of course to counter the simplicity of the defensive system... A HIT... should kill you, like in actual jedi battles, one slash means death most of the time.. So the Defensive stance will have to be use very tactically, that's why it should be simplify... if there is more chances of death, and battle is faster... defensive play should be easier to access. I believe that pressing one button to enter defensive stance, is way better than pressing where the hit will contact and if you miss you will still block but loose more DP. Since even though it is easier (which would reduce the learning curve greatly), it make the fights WAY faster, therefore making the system easy to learn, but hard to master... plus it will let pretty much everyone enjoy the gamplay (making lagging less tedious), and of course making it an more welcoming system for newbies, while still having advantages for the more advance duelist... since as i said... it will be easier to learn... but harder to trully master...

Note that all this ideas are constructive criticism, how you understand this... thanks for your time...

Last edited by rasdel; 03-20-2007 at 12:29 PM.
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Old 03-20-2007, 01:14 PM   #2
mark2000
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although having all 7 forms is nice, having more would be pretty useless if the two added stances won't have the uniqueness and usefulness of the recent 5. Simply put, if you can suggest special effects unique for each of the two stances you wish to add, then this is by all means I plausible idea.

Quote:
"defensive stance"
Although having a defensive stance will remove the annoyance of sudden block animations in the middle of an attack, the OJP guys already made up their mind in removing this feature a long time ago.

Also, simplifying the parry from choosing from 4 directions to just pushing a button at the right moment will make things too boring and simplistic in the long run.

Quote:
Fast Lock/ Slow Lock
Even though I'd like to have a little fast lock sequence for abit of eyecandy goodness, I'd rather suggest giving back the Old Saber Lock Style from Original JA along with the "Fight-Deciding" saber lock sequence.

The purpose of the Old Saber-locking would probably be something simple like inflicting a slow Bounce on the loser. The effect shouldn't be too big but probably enough to give the winner of the lock a small window of opportunity for a comeback.

I did not agree to having an "eyecandy" saber-lock because I easily grew tired of those while I was trying out MBII. Plus, when by chance, it happens too frequently, you'll easily notice how repetitive and useless it'll be.

Quote:
A HIT... should kill you
This one, I agree completely. Balancing the entire system with blaster users in mind is nice but Lightsabers should be treated differently.1-2 hits from a saber slash should ALWAYS be enough to incapacitate an opponent (or teammate if you include friendly-fire).
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Old 03-20-2007, 03:29 PM   #3
Blarknoroth
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Well I don't agree with you in the fact that juyo's style should be used with a staff.
Remember that Mace Windu was a practitioner of this form (I know its vaapad but it replaced juyo). So it should be used with a staff AND with a standard saber.
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Old 03-20-2007, 05:11 PM   #4
Maxstate
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We're not so big on coders or on saber forms right now, even though some nice changes could be beneficial.

5 single stances and duals/staff are also a helluva pain in the ass to properly balance already.

I think the saber system could use some changes that would put the 'danger' back into dueling, though.

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Old 03-20-2007, 08:13 PM   #5
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Quote:
-Saber Defend Stance-
I still think that accesing a manual Defensive Stance would make battles more fast and better.
The suggestions to you posted here will just turn us into MB2 and not increase the volleying at all. Believe me, we are pretty much all MB2 vets here and are very familiar with that combat system, and it involves alot of orbiting around in block stance until someone does a cautious swing or combo. Not that theres anything wrong with that or not fun, but its not the type of "Volleying" we're going for.

In most fights in OJP, the sabers are in the air 2 to 3 times more than they are in MB2 fights and that is a big part of what makes it look more movie realistic. Most of us parry attacks WHILE we swing and we dont have to constantly be spamming the block button between swings to stop our combo. Our parrying system works well and is based more on martial arts foot work. The directional block that we have now takes alot more skill to master anyways so it manual block would not increase skill either. Enough people are comfortable with it that we will most likely NEVER resort back to a manual block button. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Quote:
Saber locks, the more the better... saber locks are always cool... they don't need to be decicive in a battle, but there should happen every now and then just for coolness and movie-like experience. There should be 2 types:
Fast Locks: fast locks should happen every now and then, and could be only for visual purposes. This should be a fast lock with a random winner and no possitive nor negative effect on either sabersist, meaning it doesn't matter who wins, it's just there to break monotony in the combat...
Slow Locks:This are the ones that actually matter, since this are the true locks, this locks are the ones that might determine the battle winner... winning this will "stun/unbalance" your enemy if their DP level is high enough they will loose balance making the vulnerable (can counter this by entering Defensive Stance/RMB as soon as you saber is move out of the way). If DP is high the Vertical Lock will knock them down (they can still stand up fast and block the next attack by pressing the RMB), the Horizontal Lock on the other hand will push their saber asside leaving an oppening ready for a hit (still, if high in defense the recovery time can be reduce by pressing RMB). If the DP level is low though he will be killed when losing the lock, since the recovery time will be more long.
And of course all the other things that where stated above, that already are implemented in OJP...
The fast lock idea sounds suspiciously like Keshires idea for MB2 The way they work now buy successfully hitting with a power attack (attack fake) without getting parried is fine and allows for the other features that we have with it. Randomness is really more frustatiing to people especially ones that like the fast action (I know few that dont like any saberlocks at all) As far as the slowlocks.

The slowlock idea will just frustrate people if they are started randomly. The low DP thing is sort of already in our power attack based fast locks since if your opponent is at critical DP and you hold attack at the end of your power attack saberlock, you'll do a finishing move.

I wouldnt be opposed to bringing back the old JKA random saberlocks, but the code would have to be better done since razor said that the code for those was total crap. Quick idea just for the heck of it: to kill the ping based benefits of those locks, do a one second delay before anyone can start fighting the lock. This is just pipe dreaming though, I doubt razor wants to bring those back

Quote:
believe that with this kind of changes the battles will be faster and will take more skill. Of course to counter the simplicity of the defensive system... A HIT... should kill you, like in actual jedi battles, one slash means death most of the time.. So the Defensive stance will have to be use very tactically, that's why it should be simplify... if there is more chances of death, and battle is faster... defensive play should be easier to access.
We're not looking for fast battles, we're looking for fast sabers and epic battles. Another reason why or sabers are faster and swing more often is that we DON'T have one hit kills and learning to combo is essential. Its still possible to kill someone in 3 or 4 moves depending on what you do, but you have to know what your doing. For faster battles all you have to do is decrease the max points allow so everyone starts with less DP (thats usually a good idea for seige). Not that I wouldn't like more danger in OJP saber combat, but not at the expense of the pace of the battle and the visuals. A single hit kill would have to be VERY particular and not effect the normal combat.

The only thing I've thought of is maybe making a running power attack do a kill if not parried, but 100% vulnerable while in it and will get knocked down if they get parried, but this could potentially create other problems in the combat.

Overall, I don't think we're going to make too many more dramatic changes to the saber combat since razor is on the verge of retiring and we got a good thing going right now. We'd have to get alot of new coders as good as Razor and have a HUGE consensus.


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Old 03-20-2007, 08:46 PM   #6
mark2000
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Quote:
For faster battles all you have to do is decrease the max points allow so everyone starts with less DP (thats usually a good idea for seige).
this is off-topic but may I ask how do you set the max points allow for dodge and force?

Quote:
Not that I wouldn't like more danger in OJP saber combat, but not at the expense of the pace of the battle and the visuals.
how about increasing the health/shield damage of sabers to twice or more of it's current damage. IMO, it doesn't really affect the pacing of the game since all of us still have to worry about that DP meter.

Another OT question:

Is the g_saberrealisticcombat applicable to OJP? I tried using it once but I never saw any changes to the sabers attack damage.


BTW, this suggestion may not be much in terms of importance but could you also add in the new saber sound effects from episodes 1-3? They just sound SO much better when compared to the old trilogy.
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Old 03-20-2007, 09:34 PM   #7
rasdel
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Quote:
Well I don't agree with you in the fact that juyo's style should be used with a staff.
Remember that Mace Windu was a practitioner of this form (I know its vaapad but it replaced juyo). So it should be used with a staff AND with a standard saber.
Absolutely true, and trust me... if this was the case i would love to see the juyo's style for single saber too... but since i ask for 7 i just thought is would be good for some of the saber styles to be unique. But technically you are right, Juyo can be used either with a saber or a staff

Quote:
The suggestions to you posted here will just turn us into MB2 and not increase the volleying at all. Believe me, we are pretty much all MB2 vets here and are very familiar with that combat system, and it involves alot of orbiting around in block stance until someone does a cautious swing or combo. Not that theres anything wrong with that or not fun, but its not the type of "Volleying" we're going for.
I see... i guess i will have to improve my comboing techniques because i can't combo for that long... lol :P... Did thought that by adding a defensive stance the volley would be more and faster since your opponent would be able to attack faster and you would be able to "block" faster too... making it look like a fast frenzy swordplay... but i guess i got to trust you guys on this, since you do seem to know what you guys are talking about

Quote:
The fast lock idea sounds suspiciously like Keshires idea for MB2 The way they work now buy successfully hitting with a power attack (attack fake) without getting parried is fine and allows for the other features that we have with it. Randomness is really more frustatiing to people especially ones that like the fast action (I know few that dont like any saberlocks at all) As far as the slowlocks.
On a second thought you are actually right, why adding something just for eye-candy if it has no purpose at all... if there is no purpose it WILL become frustrating in the long, run... you i believe you guys are right...

Thanks for you time guys
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Old 03-20-2007, 10:45 PM   #8
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Np Mr. Troy McClure..I mean Rasdel. I see where your going with your ideas, but its sort of a "been there, tried that" thing with us for manual blocking and similar ideas. I've thought of similar things in the past but I quickly came to release that it would change the action too much to be beneficial.

Like I've mentioned before, if you ever want to really learn the system well, pm me your IM address and I'll set up a server when I'm available. We usually keep in touch that way around here since we dont have an "official" release and we probably wont have many servers until we do.


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Old 03-21-2007, 03:07 AM   #9
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That's right, we've been through this discussion a lot of times, and at the end of the day, what we've achieved equates to what we feel is the best. The core saber system in 009r is what the community's been asking for, and it has hit the saber combat feel that we've always wanted to have. Of course, it takes some time getting used to it, but at the end of the day, it's by far the most realistic saber combat (swordfighting too) simulation we've seen so far. IMHO it even surpasses Die by the Sword - an old swordfighting game where you wield the sword with the mouse, but the system is too clunky - and more recently its spiritual successor - an indie game caleld Determinance.

On the sidenote, Determinance isn't a bad game, give the demo a shot . I bought the full version heheh
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Old 03-23-2007, 08:24 AM   #10
rasdel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UDM
That's right, we've been through this discussion a lot of times, and at the end of the day, what we've achieved equates to what we feel is the best. The core saber system in 009r is what the community's been asking for, and it has hit the saber combat feel that we've always wanted to have. Of course, it takes some time getting used to it, but at the end of the day, it's by far the most realistic saber combat (swordfighting too) simulation we've seen so far...
I do understand what you guys mean... it is too bad i got here so late, i don't really know what you guys have and have not tested until i say something and you go "been there... done that... and doesn't work"

I don't know what it is... but there is something out there that i find disturbing... i mean. I understand the commands, and i have read the manual for the 3erd time. I do get the concept, and do like it, but i believe it's hard to implement it practically.

I still think there is a way to make the game look and feel better... but i don't know where to aim... i do know that eventually i will find this "thing" that is bugging me...

A question...
Why is the purpose of the "Fake Attack"??
Ok, as retarded as this question sounds, since the name it's pretty self-explanatory, my question actually refers to "realism against been viable"... meaning it makes attack look crazy and is VERY hard to know where the whole attack will hit if you are fake 3 or for consecutive times... so it ends up just pressing whatever you have in front to "try" avoiding... making it feel like "you got lucky" and not like you actually knew what you where doing...

Most of you guys have played this for a while... so most of you might find it easy to duel, but i must admit, i do feel it like plain luck when dueling... i mean, i do understand the dueling concept... and when i try to implement it sometimes i get lucky and look like a pro, and sometimes (by repeating the same technique, meaning blocking/parrying where it's suppose to be right) i am beaten like an old lady... i don't really know how an old lady actually looks when beaten up with a light-saber but i bet it's not pretty ...

So, there is something that makes rookies in the system feel "uneasy" with the results of duels (i must include myself here), meaning that even after reading and understanding the whole concept it is somehow hard to make it work. This is mainly because with all the fakes and attacks and different styles it's almost imposible (for a rookie) to know where the freaking saber will hit, making it more a button smashing battle than an actual, strategic one.

I am NOT saying the concept and mechanics are not strategic, i am saying that it is so overwhelming it does end un being a button smashing duel for the novice player, and that is something that i honestly believe you don't want, since if will become frustrating to even learn how to duel the right way...

I am looking to support a good Mod that tries to improve the JKA combat system to make it more movie-like... and for now i have only found 3 that are worth putting ideas/comments into.

You guys where my first choice, since the whole concept just looks better, and everything is better implemented. Movie Battles is another Mod i like, but since they look a little bit further that sword fighting, and therefore their sword fighting is not as "taken care" as the one you got here... but it's a very decent mod anyway. Last but not least... "KOTF" but i got NO idea how the fighting is on that mod, I've only seem the trailers... i have seen some very impresive new moves... but who knows...

Anyway, my main problem is that i trully believe that even though you got everything thought out, and very well planned, it is very hard to "get into the Mod" as it is right now. I does take some time to read and understand the manual, but the main problem is the actual play...

It is very hard to get used to, and ends up feeling "like plain luck" when blocking, and i bet that's not the feeling you guys want to give, and even more important, after understanding how everything work, i KNOW that LUCK is NOT what the system is based on, but it still feels like that.

I have been trying to give ideas, not to change the great concept you guys have here... but to make it more, newbie friendly. I trully think you guys should look into this since it is very overwhelming, and let's face it... eventually there will be not enought time to just create a server and "train" people in the arts of "OJP"... and even if it where, it's really boring to have to give so much time to actually being able to play a simple duel. So this is why i would like the whole fighting to be simpler in some way... to keep the good points you guys have, but making it less overwhelming for the new comer...

I was thinking... what if the attacks where done one after the other, meaning:

*Pressing LMB will make the character swing in fast motion with 2 continuous animations (like the first 2 moves of the Blue Kata in the original game). By this the attack will look more fluid and the animation less "broken".

*By pressing the LMB and moving around, depending on what movement arrow you would press the attack switches to a new one, meaing left will cause a turn around attack to the left, same happens with right but to that side. Forward could have a choping attack, and last but not least, back will don't chance the standing attack. This will make 4 attacks per style (without taking into consideration the jumping attack and such) this could look more fluid.

Even though you might think this is how it looks right now, it doesn't... if i press and hold and attack it will do it once... wait a while and then do it again. What i mean is reduce the "freeze" time to make it look faster, hence more fluid. Blocks will be easier if there where some kind of "kata" moves for every "move key" and no fakes... since then after a little bit of play and looking at what moves can be done in each style... you will learn on how to block them efficiently since you know there's only 4 moves for each style... but his means no fakes so new comers won't feel so overwhelm and can actually predict an attack (i know most veterans won't like it since this means less... so i don't know).

The problem with this is that if now it's hard to block/parry more speed, more fluid kata-like animations AND fakes will make it nearly impossible... so truly i don't know how to make it more, userfriendly and at the same time more exciting/fast, and that bugs me...
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Old 03-23-2007, 08:34 AM   #11
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I totally agree rasdel (as I am a rookie too) it is quite to know where the sabers gonna hit and I end up just pressing down arrow + w/e keys in the way, and yeah what is the attack fake for? I am not saying I don't like the system but like rasdel said mebbe make it a little more newbie friendly, you guys don't have a problem at all with the system..i mean you "grew up" with it and know it from top to bottom.
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Old 03-23-2007, 09:33 AM   #12
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@rasdel

I haven't exactly been playing this mod for a long-time but I realized that with even just a little bit of decent thinking while you play the game, it's actually easy to get used to the system.

It's like Professional Racing. It's easy to learn stuff like engines, tires, and brakes but when you get down to it, everything you've just learned is pretty much useless if you don't know how to properly apply those when you're already inside a car and driving at more than 100KPH. On the other hand, stepping on the gas the whole time will just make your life worse instead of the opposite.

My point is this: You must have clear and rational thinking especially when you're just a rookie duelist. Always think about what you are doing and learn from it. Spamming the swing button won't just make you lose the game, it'll also prevent you from learning HOW TO PLAY THE GAME. Don't ever think that it's mostly about luck since luck will affect the outcome of the game by only 10% or less. Even if you start to feel like what you're doing doesn't seem to have any good effect even though you're doing it right, don't be tempted to suddenly spam that swing button.

The first thing you need to keep in mind is to take note of everything you and your opponent do. Examine how your opponent fights and build your strategy from there. Just because your previous attack pattern or strategy worked last time doesn't mean that it'll also work the next time. Also, when practicing your parries, don't expect it to work all the time even if you keep pressing the right direction buttons. The other guys can give you a better explanation as to why but all I can say is that it's abit "clunky". You must also have a good balance of defense and attack because you won't survive long by simply relying on just either one. You must have both.

One last thing. Shii Cho is called the "most basic of all forms" for a reason. I suggest you get used to it first for the time being. That way, you won't get too confused with your character's attack animations. When I was still very new to OJP, I learned the basics while using Shii Cho all the time. When I got used to dueling already, I switched to Makashi and I've been learning how to use it ever since.

IMO, it's not just the special effect that makes the Styles unique but also their different animations. If you don't know the timing of the attack animations of a certain style then it'll be hard for you to use it to its full potential. That's just my opinion anyway but it's based on personal experience when I suddenly switched to Juyo from Makashi and quickly felt very awkward during my attacks. So much that I couldn't even properly time my Attack Parries.

Quote:
Ok, as retarded as this question sounds, since the name it's pretty self-explanatory, my question actually refers to "realism against been viable"... meaning it makes attack look crazy and is VERY hard to know where the whole attack will hit if you are fake 3 or four consecutive times... so it ends up just pressing whatever you have in front to "try" avoiding... making it feel like "you got lucky" and not like you actually knew what you where doing...
Attack Fakes happen pretty slowly. It's easy to counter them with Attack Parries when you get used to them. You can also simply do a normal attack to him effortlessly before he can land an attack fake at you. Add a decent combo to the mix and you've already got him cornered.
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Old 03-23-2007, 09:37 AM   #13
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Everyone I've taught just uses fake, riposte and power attack to name the technical stuff. It's really silly that some purists just refuse to let go of those words and in the process confuse the hell out of people.

The reason you're pressing whatever is that the game might be a bit too fast for you.
Play with slowed down saber animations and more DP to fix that!

The reason I sometimes just press whatever is that saber fighting doesn't feel like an achievement anymore and is totally lame and slow in comparison to the other quick and easy ways you can kill someone, I lately prefer taking my chances to melee kata someone over saber fighting.

I think after a while that's what everyone does. When you figure out the sabersystem and start prawning as much jedi ass as I do left and right there's just no fun in it

I have presented ways to fix this however, which I think you might like as well.
Since I feel that OJP is played on two different levels (that of a tactical sim for Jedi and quake3 arena for gunners) I was thinking of a way to somehow up the achievement and prawnage level that you feel after you frag a player, and to also reward you with skills you actually need.

Keep coming back to either timed respawns, or last man standing rounds for the fragging stuff. I personally don't like the fact that I've spent 20 minutes dueling my opponent and going through extensive strategic planning to get that finishing saber cut in, and when I do, they just respawn somewhere behind me and finish me off..

Seriously, if we denied jedi and gunners to respawn quake3 arena style we would make them value their life more! The game would be much more tactical and team-based, but together with our fighting and gunning system it would still keep that OJP feeling and rush you get that is so different from MB.
It would slow down gameplay a tad, but I really wouldn't mind.

I'd like you to consider adding lives or a respawn timer to the game Darthdie

Further more, I think we don't need more weapons or skills (other than the sniper rifle) but I think we need to improve the skills we already have and make them more useful (as I've also posted on before).

MB's done it pretty smartly, they don't have all that many skills, most of their WOW effect comes from their plethora of models and skins and effects. MB however puts certain limits and perequisites on their skills that make them seem just THAT much more worth it and more powerful to specialise in.

To make things short (as I don't want to make huge posts that noone reads anymore) I'd like us to try and improve skills as you buy more points for them, but also manage to have certain skill combos give you certain benefits.

Ensi has shown that it's pretty easy to make the E-11's shots do more damage when you buy level 2 e-11 for example. If one buys push 2, you could give them the power of pushing blaster bolts back at the enemy. Sense 3 would activate auto-push, sense 2 would activate auto-dodge, Pull 3 would give you a quicker saber throw pull-back, Jump 2 would enable you to recover faster from kicks etcetera etcetera.

I think that's what OJP needs. We need to put more limits on the features we already have and make kills and skillpoints mean something other than numbers on a scoreboard again. We need to open our eyes and see the sheer magnitude of things that players and developers of OJP have been taking for granted.

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Old 03-23-2007, 10:21 AM   #14
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Lol - I personally don't always read long posts...cause they are long >.<. I like that idea...it would slow it down but it would also make people not be...people.As long as everyone agree's I would be glad to add it.That is whatever they agree on. Though since you want it that should give it some momentum . I'll make sure Hockney see's this and see what he says.
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Old 03-23-2007, 10:33 AM   #15
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I think one problem for newcomers is that they are likely to set min points level too high, like something over 100. Yeah, I did the same thing too. It was cool to test all new features at once, at least so I thought. I must say I didn't learn nearly at all what comes to saber system.
Then, some day I started to play with one of my friends with 20 min points (max around 200 but we never get there ). Both took sense, saber attack and defense of course. So it end up to makashi/shii cho fights. it took only 10 mins or so to learn how vital things like parrying or especially force jump was. We played 1-1 hours and during that time I started to understand and respect the whole system more than ever. (Same thing happened to my friend, he played OJP months ago, hate the whole system. Now, OJP has improved of course, but we started with less points and both found system great).

It could be good idea to write a suggestion in manual (and quick start quide) that newbies would start with less than 50 points. Otherwise it takes many times longer to understand the system.
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Old 03-23-2007, 11:03 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by DarthDie
I totally agree rasdel (as I am a rookie too) it is quite to know where the sabers gonna hit and I end up just pressing down arrow + w/e keys in the way, and yeah what is the attack fake for? I am not saying I don't like the system but like rasdel said mebbe make it a little more newbie friendly, you guys don't have a problem at all with the system..i mean you "grew up" with it and know it from top to bottom.
Well, thanks God i am not the only one having this problem :P

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark2000
I haven't exactly been playing this mod for a long-time but I realized that with even just a little bit of decent thinking while you play the game, it's actually easy to get used to the system.
Well, i bet every newbie adds a HUGE amount of decent thinking... trust me. There are so many things to have in consideration when dueling in OJP it's impossible not to think. And that is the main problem with newbies, they are thinking TOO much, about everything there is so they can't really "Clear their mind of questions" (as Yoda would put it)... therefore, they can't fight instintively.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxstate
The reason you're pressing whatever is that the game might be a bit too fast for you.
Play with slowed down saber animations and more DP to fix that!
How do i do that?

Quote:
Ensi has shown that it's pretty easy to make the E-11's shots do more damage when you buy level 2 e-11 for example. If one buys push 2, you could give them the power of pushing blaster bolts back at the enemy. Sense 3 would activate auto-push, sense 2 would activate auto-dodge, Pull 3 would give you a quicker saber throw pull-back, Jump 2 would enable you to recover faster from kicks etcetera etcetera.
I really like those ideas, enhancing each power would make it easier to fight, and fights will look better since it would seem the player is using some powers without actually using them, therefore he can focus on saber combat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HamstrYODA
I think one problem for newcomers is that they are likely to set min points level too high, like something over 100. Yeah, I did the same thing too...It could be good idea to write a suggestion in manual (and quick start quide) that newbies would start with less than 50 points. Otherwise it takes many times longer to understand the system.
So basically what you say is that for understanding better the combat system, a new comer should focus less on the amount of points he uses, therefore playing more like a Padawan than a Master-wana-be? I don't think this is the problem... but still...

My question is... i tend to never focus on powers since i do try to get a hang of the saber system. I am what i would like to call... a true Jedi (yeah right... i wish) i tend to MAX Jump, Saber Offense, Saber Defense, Push (to counter grab) and Absorb (to counter Light and other powers), but technically i never use the Force Powers unless i trully need them... i focus more on saber fighting than anything else... what would you recommend to get to be able to have a better understanding of the saber system.
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Old 03-23-2007, 03:38 PM   #17
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Maxstate: yes but if you're playing FFA, why the heck do you want to stop people from spawning out? I mean sure if you want a Last Man Standing mode, that sounds reasonable, but FFA? Cmon theres a reason why people play FFA...
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Old 03-23-2007, 03:43 PM   #18
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@rasdel: like you said, fake attack is self-explanatory. In fact, it's not necessary to use it at all, but you can if you want to. In my experience, FA is best used when you're fighting a losing opponent. FA cuts off more DP from your opponent, and if your opponent fails to parry your FA, you auto lock his saber and win him in the saberlock, causing him to lose more DP

However, FA isn't easy to use. Firstly, it requires concentration in terms of direction. Let's say you're moving forwards and you tap LMB + RMB. This causes you initiate a FA by first swinging from above. To change direction, you will have to move in another direction once the FA is executed. It's pretty complicated, but it's good so that it gives players who are fully concentrated a better fighting chance over those who anyhow whack

That said, if you don't like FA, you don't have to use it. All you need to know is what FA does, which I've explained above
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Old 03-23-2007, 04:38 PM   #19
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therefore, they can't fight instintively.
how on earth can you fight instinctively if you're not even used to the game yet? Things can only become second nature to us AFTER we are already used at doing it and when I said "used", I don't mean just 3 or a few more rounds of swinging your saber. If you wish to be able to fight instinctively overnight then we might as well change the battle system to a button masher with a block button if anything else.

Do you know of a game called "Jedi Power Battles"? That game is so simple that you'll definitely be able to fight instinctively overnight. IMO, it was also so damn simple that I got tired of playing it after a day or two.

Quote:
I lately prefer taking my chances to melee kata someone over saber fighting.
oh...that thing....it's really so damn ironic that you can spend 20 minutes blocking saber and blaster attacks from someone but you can't even block a single punch coming right at you....>_>

How come you guys decided that Melee should affect the health meter instantly without draining the DP meter first?

Quote:
that of a tactical sim for Jedi and quake3 arena for gunners
why not make the gunners also tactical instead of quake 3-like?

Quote:
Ensi has shown that it's pretty easy to make the E-11's shots do more damage when you buy level 2 e-11 for example. If one buys push 2, you could give them the power of pushing blaster bolts back at the enemy. Sense 3 would activate auto-push, sense 2 would activate auto-dodge, Pull 3 would give you a quicker saber throw pull-back, Jump 2 would enable you to recover faster from kicks etcetera etcetera.
these ideas, me like. With these ideas put into action, it's gonna be worth maxing out the levels of most, if not all, force powers.

~~~~~~~~

BTW. I have a certain complaint about the block animations. Is it possible to have the block animations to always happen only AFTER or by the time you get hit? Since the blocks also happen prematurely, combo's and well-placed attacks tend to get cancelled alot when fighting against swing spammers. It's pretty annoying when your character suddenly switches to a block animation in the middle of a swing so instead of having been able to deal the first strike, you get your DP drained instead.
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Old 03-24-2007, 05:14 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by mark2000
~~~~~~~~

BTW. I have a certain complaint about the block animations. Is it possible to have the block animations to always happen only AFTER or by the time you get hit? Since the blocks also happen prematurely, combo's and well-placed attacks tend to get cancelled alot when fighting against swing spammers. It's pretty annoying when your character suddenly switches to a block animation in the middle of a swing so instead of having been able to deal the first strike, you get your DP drained instead.
Yeah that's a huge annoyance, you can hold your attack button and never actually start an attack because your attacker is comboing far too fast even IF you're parrying correctly. Just do a riposte; parry in the right direction and hold both mouse buttons before they attack you.

@UDM

A lot of games, even if FFA do not have instant respawns. Enemy Territory is a very fast, teambased desecendant of the quake3 engine where being fast and respawning fast means everything, still there's a 30 second public timer that you WILL have to wait out before you can play again.

Why? Because they saw the same problem we have right now. People spawn, can just run into their enemies and unload their clips and their FP and then let themselves be killed since they've already gotten more than enough skillpoints from damaging their opponent. Now when they respawn they can finish their opponent off if they're quick enough to find them too.

Instead of giving you another big list of games that use this formula you should think about what I said. Jedi are forced to play a tactical sim, gunners are playing Quake3 with lightsabers. Think about it.
Why is this fair? Why is this even here?
Are we really so vain that we don't want to sacrifice a part of the game's overall speed to create a better game?

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Old 03-24-2007, 09:25 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by mark2000
how on earth can you fight instinctively if you're not even used to the game yet? Things can only become second nature to us AFTER we are already used at doing it and when I said "used", I don't mean just 3 or a few more rounds of swinging your saber. If you wish to be able to fight instinctively overnight then we might as well change the battle system to a button masher with a block button if anything else.
Ok, maybe the word "instinctively" was not the best one to use... what i mean for example is what happens when playing original JKA you know how things everything even if you haven't seem everything yet. That is because it's simpler... In other words, if the animations where different maybe it would be A LOT more newbie friendly. As i said before:
*Having 2 animations for the standing still attack and the moving forward attack (both would have the same animation). This animation could be two consecutive fast attacks like the 2 first attacks in the Blue Kata (of course they should be different for each style, but keeping the contact point and overall look, in other words... in one style it could be done with one hand, or with the "blade" away from the body, etc).
*Having 1 animation for each side attack (turning around left, for left; turning around right for right). Again, different animations for each style, but same "concept". Maybe in a bluish style it could turn around the sword "a-la-makashi" fast twirling movement, while in a redish style it could just turn around and swing.
*Having a chopping attack for the "backwards+LMB" combination. Self-elxplanatory...
By this type of attacking concept it would be easier to block... since it would be an easier concept and most attack, altough different will have a familiar feel, making the newbie more capable of "instinctive" combat (NOTE: It's not instinctive, but i just like that word )...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxstate
Yeah that's a huge annoyance, you can hold your attack button and never actually start an attack because your attacker is comboing far too fast even IF you're parrying correctly. Just do a riposte; parry in the right direction and hold both mouse buttons before they attack you.

@UDM

A lot of games, even if FFA do not have instant respawns. Enemy Territory is a very fast, teambased desecendant of the quake3 engine where being fast and respawning fast means everything, still there's a 30 second public timer that you WILL have to wait out before you can play again.

Why? Because they saw the same problem we have right now. People spawn, can just run into their enemies and unload their clips and their FP and then let themselves be killed since they've already gotten more than enough skillpoints from damaging their opponent. Now when they respawn they can finish their opponent off if they're quick enough to find them too.

Instead of giving you another big list of games that use this formula you should think about what I said. Jedi are forced to play a tactical sim, gunners are playing Quake3 with lightsabers. Think about it.
Why is this fair? Why is this even here?
Are we really so vain that we don't want to sacrifice a part of the game's overall speed to create a better game?
I second this... it's not a bad idea, plus it's really annoying when you are hit in the back or anywhere for that matter by a newly respawn enemy you just killed. But how do you guys plan to solve this??
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Old 03-24-2007, 10:29 AM   #22
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Ok, maybe the word "instinctively" was not the best one to use... what i mean for example is what happens when playing original JKA you know how things everything even if you haven't seem everything yet. That is because it's simpler... In other words, if the animations where different maybe it would be A LOT more newbie friendly. As i said before:
*Having 2 animations for the standing still attack and the moving forward attack (both would have the same animation). This animation could be two consecutive fast attacks like the 2 first attacks in the Blue Kata (of course they should be different for each style, but keeping the contact point and overall look, in other words... in one style it could be done with one hand, or with the "blade" away from the body, etc).
*Having 1 animation for each side attack (turning around left, for left; turning around right for right). Again, different animations for each style, but same "concept". Maybe in a bluish style it could turn around the sword "a-la-makashi" fast twirling movement, while in a redish style it could just turn around and swing.
*Having a chopping attack for the "backwards+LMB" combination. Self-elxplanatory...
By this type of attacking concept it would be easier to block... since it would be an easier concept and most attack, altough different will have a familiar feel, making the newbie more capable of "instinctive" combat (NOTE: It's not instinctive, but i just like that word )...
I understand what you are trying to say now although since each style has to be unique to each other, we must also take note of how giving the styles simplier anims would affect each other's usefulness and "personality" ( Sorry. I couldn't think of a better word) especially Shii Cho since that style already has most of the anims suggestions you've mentioned earlier. That's why I suggested earlier that rookies should stick to using Shii Cho until they get used to the game because that style has the simpliest animations around.

However, I do suggest the removal of the staff and dual styles' excessive saber twirling animations because with them around, it feels like it takes twice the time for swings to hit than the single saber styles. I'm not entirely sure about this though since I'm not exactly an avid user of said styles.

Quote:
Yeah that's a huge annoyance, you can hold your attack button and never actually start an attack because your attacker is comboing far too fast even IF you're parrying correctly. Just do a riposte; parry in the right direction and hold both mouse buttons before they attack you.
I've been practicing that technique you said already because I play mostly with TAB bots. Those bots are such Attack Fake whores so practicing Attack Parries with them is such a cake.

I haven't tried practicing APs when dealing with opponents that frequent normal swings though since I don't exactly have the luxury of playing against real people properly because of VERY BAD ping and all.


I have a question:

Does the mishap meter of your opponent increase when you execute a succesful Attack Parry on him or does it only happen with normal Parry Blocks?
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Old 03-24-2007, 10:45 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by mark2000
I have a question:

Does the mishap meter of your opponent increase when you execute a succesful Attack Parry on him or does it only happen with normal Parry Blocks?
If attack parry means Power Attack:
Power attacks reset the mishap bar as far as I know.

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Old 03-24-2007, 03:27 PM   #24
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I second this... it's not a bad idea, plus it's really annoying when you are hit in the back or anywhere for that matter by a newly respawn enemy you just killed. But how do you guys plan to solve this??
Darth Die is looking into adding a last man standing system to OJP. We'll see how it turns out.


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Old 03-24-2007, 03:30 PM   #25
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I think they're talking about the Ripost, Max. Anyway, an attack parry/Ripost boosts the attacker's MP and then forces them into a mishap.


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Old 03-24-2007, 04:02 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Maxstate
@UDM

A lot of games, even if FFA do not have instant respawns. Enemy Territory is a very fast, teambased desecendant of the quake3 engine where being fast and respawning fast means everything, still there's a 30 second public timer that you WILL have to wait out before you can play again.

Why? Because they saw the same problem we have right now. People spawn, can just run into their enemies and unload their clips and their FP and then let themselves be killed since they've already gotten more than enough skillpoints from damaging their opponent. Now when they respawn they can finish their opponent off if they're quick enough to find them too.

Instead of giving you another big list of games that use this formula you should think about what I said. Jedi are forced to play a tactical sim, gunners are playing Quake3 with lightsabers. Think about it.
Why is this fair? Why is this even here?
Are we really so vain that we don't want to sacrifice a part of the game's overall speed to create a better game?
Bolded the keyword. We're talking about JKA right now. 30 second respawn won't do jack **** because the maps weren't made for such features. Siege, maybe, but not any of JKA's default FFA maps. And come on let's face it, most people hate waiting. It's going to be one of those features that you'll add in and people will say "remove it please! waiting sucks!"

I mean if you want to add a respawn timer for modes like CTF, by all means go ahead. Just don't be surprised when people start wondering what's the rationale for doing so. Seriously, if it ain't broke, dont fix it. We have more urgent issues at hand right now like fixing the force powers/guns skill points exploit

I understand the issue at hand, but this isn't the way to solve it. I'm sure there are better alternatives that we haven't thought of
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Old 03-24-2007, 04:10 PM   #27
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Bolded the keyword. We're talking about JKA right now. 30 second respawn won't do jack **** because the maps weren't made for such features. Siege, maybe, but not any of JKA's default FFA maps. And come on let's face it, most people hate waiting. It's going to be one of those features that you'll add in and people will say "remove it please! waiting sucks!"

I mean if you want to add a respawn timer for modes like CTF, by all means go ahead. Just don't be surprised when people start wondering what's the rationale for doing so. Seriously, if it ain't broke, dont fix it. We have more urgent issues at hand right now like fixing the force powers/guns skill points exploit

I understand the issue at hand, but this isn't the way to solve it. I'm sure there are better alternatives that we haven't thought of
Versus

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max
Instead of giving you another big list of games that use this formula you should think about what I said

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Old 03-24-2007, 05:05 PM   #28
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Do those games have hybrid classes? Do those games offer the complexity of OJP? Do those games start off with the intention of just changing the saber combat system? Are those games in any way similar to OJP?

Anyway, I'm just offering my views. I don't really care for FFA, as most of you probably already know, but if you still insist on having it your way...meh I say
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Old 03-24-2007, 05:26 PM   #29
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It's alright. We can at least try a LMS style of combat. It might be fun. Plus, it looks like it won't be hard to do in the first place.


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Old 03-24-2007, 05:52 PM   #30
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UDM leh, you have to understand that I'm not pushing this to get people annoyed by waiting before they can play again, I'm simply trying to find a way to get OJP to harness the adrenaline-pumping gameplay that comes with valuing your life.

Lets just try it.. if we don't like it you can all say I'm teh sux and we can revert back to quake3 fest

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Old 03-24-2007, 06:27 PM   #31
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I know, an LMS mode would be good. That's why I like Doom 3. But I do not wish to see a timer implemented into FFA. That way, we get more choices in game modes. People who don't want such a fast pace eg. Max can play LMS, while others who just want an all out fragfest with a touch of adrenaline can carry on with FFA

That's my point lar!
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Old 03-24-2007, 07:36 PM   #32
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I'm all for a last man standing option. That would be a fun option and maybe get a few more MB players here from time to time.

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Does the mishap meter of your opponent increase when you execute a succesful Attack Parry on him or does it only happen with normal Parry Blocks?
I think it goes back to the next lower level of mishap if you attack parry them


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Old 03-24-2007, 10:28 PM   #33
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Why not just make an option to adjust the amount of waiting time before respawn?

Quote:
I think it goes back to the next lower level of mishap if you attack parry them
that sucks but I guess it's reasonable since you instantly get slow-bounced after getting APed.


A little suggestion:

-increase the Mishap damage of Makashi
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Old 03-25-2007, 12:05 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark2000
that sucks but I guess it's reasonable since you instantly get slow-bounced after getting APed.


A little suggestion:

-increase the Mishap damage of Makashi
yeah if it went up, no one would really have any good reason for trying normal parries since they could just do attack parries constantly and still send their opponents mishap bar through the roof.

I've actually thought about increasing the mishap damage for makashi, but I wasn't quite sure. Well, here's another reason for trying it Maybe only a point though. If razor adds these characteristics to the repository, I'll mention this to him as well.


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Old 03-25-2007, 12:41 AM   #35
mark2000
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any increase, even just a little, would be nice. After using Makashi for a long time, I realized that this style's purpose should be on 'off-balancing the opponent' more than anything else so there should be alot of focus on it's effects on the mishap bar. It's mishap damage should be large enough to see it take effect but small enough so that the player would still need to parry block frequently.

I also think that it's DP damage should be similar to Soresu but that might have a negative effect on Soresu's usefulness in the long run.
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Old 03-25-2007, 06:42 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark2000
Why not just make an option to adjust the amount of waiting time before respawn?
After a night's sleep, I think I'm more receptive to this idea
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Old 03-25-2007, 07:43 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rasdel

FORM 1: Shii-Cho
FORM 2: Makashi
FORM 3: Soresu
FORM 4: Sokan
FORM 5: Shien
FORM 6: Jar'Kai
FORM 7: Juyo
I thought form 4 was Ataru, form 5 was Djem So, and form 6 was Niman, and I'm not sure about form 7, but I know it's also called vaapad.


Your auto-blocking is in vain! Only SP source code modification can allow you to block my desann-style attacks without being staggered now!
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Old 03-25-2007, 09:14 AM   #38
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightsaber_Combat

as you can see, some styles are also categorized in single forms. IMO, it was a good idea that the guys decided on specific styles instead of using the forms themselves since a single form may have multiple styles and these styles may also differ from each other.

geez...now I'm starting to sound like too much of a Star Wars fan.
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Old 03-25-2007, 09:27 AM   #39
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Edit: Lol :P
LMS has been added I am just waiting to commit it...not sure what for I guess in case I forget something...like I did(though that's been fixed). Oh and do we want it to say "SoandSo was the last man standing" ? Now i'm off to read Sunday comics......Garfield FTW!
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Old 03-25-2007, 11:01 AM   #40
Maxstate
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthDie
Edit: Lol :P
LMS has been added I am just waiting to commit it...not sure what for I guess in case I forget something...like I did(though that's been fixed). Oh and do we want it to say "SoandSo was the last man standing" ? Now i'm off to read Sunday comics......Garfield FTW!

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