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Old 04-15-2007, 01:24 PM   #161
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who founded Atheism?


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I believe what people believe in is their own accord, i respect believer's just as non-believers because at the end of the day it's that person's choice in life and no-one can tell them otherwise.
ok, i agree with that


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Old 04-15-2007, 02:19 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by BruceLee_Reborn
it contradicts itself. a lot.
Religion? Yes, I know

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Originally Posted by BruceLee_Reborn
to use a slightly overused argument, just for fun, where did matter origionate? hmm? that's what i thought...
The Big Bang, of course

Ok, that's the "how" not necessarily the "where". I'll be serious now.

The answer is that I (we) don't know (although science has many hypothesis and theories that are based on evidence). The truth is that you don't know either (no one does), but your religion claims to have an answer that cannot be proven.

The difference between religion and science is that science accepts that and then tries to find out, whereas religion just makes something up and declares it "truth" despite an utter lack of evidence.

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Originally Posted by BruceLee_Reborn
ugh, i don't get it. could you explain the neutrality thing? i'm not sure i understand. and are you a Theist, or an Atheist?
Atheist (although I have to tell you, the term is ridiculous).

Picture a number line that goes from -100 to 100. Theism (positive or negative) is anything other than 0. Anti-theism is anything less than 0. Positive theism is anything greater than 0. Atheism is 0.

In order to deny a god or gods, you have to first believe in one, which is why I reject the definition of atheism that suggests that it's "a denial of god". To accept or deny a god is to make a positive statement (one way or another) regarding that god's existence. True atheism (imho) does not make a positive statement in either direction, seeking to remain neutral.

Any atheist that says that he or she wouldn't accept god or gods if evidence was presented has beliefs just as dogmatic as the religion(s) they claim to oppose.

Is that easier to digest? Let me know if I can clarify anything further.

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Originally Posted by BruceLee_Reborn
Oh i will....you just wait
I look forward to seeing what you bring to the table

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Originally Posted by BruceLee_Reborn
who founded Atheism?
Atheism is a natural state, therefore it has no founder. Everything in the universe is atheistic until it is indoctrinated into a religious tradition.

Think about it for a second:

a = without
theism = belief in the existence of a god or gods.

Little babies are without belief in the existence of a god or gods. Same thing goes for trees, rocks, stop signs, planets, stars, nebulae, etc. Everything is atheistic until it has been indoctrinated (I prefer the term brainwashed, but that gets me banned ), into a religion.

You, yourself are extremely atheistic and probably don't even realize it. You probably don't believe in Zeus, Hera, Hermes, Poseidon, Hades, Osiris, Ra, Isis, Amun, Ptah, Amaterasu, Owadatsumi, Susanowo, Brahma, Vaishnava, Allah, Yahweh, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, the Celestial Teapot, or any of the hundreds of other deities that I have not listed here. You are completely atheistic to all the gods that "exist" now or have ever "existed"...except one. Atheists just extend their disbelief one god further than you.

I hope that gives you something to chew on.

Take care.
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Old 04-15-2007, 03:24 PM   #163
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huh. that actually makes sense. the part where atheists reject ALL gods, whereas theist accept one, but reject all others. by the way, what kind of atheist are you? darwinian(there's that image of a monkey in my mind a gain), or something else? and do you believe in evolution?


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Old 04-15-2007, 03:33 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by BruceLee_Reborn
huh. that actually makes sense. the part where atheists reject ALL gods, whereas theist accept one, but reject all others.
Yeah, I kinda think so too

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Originally Posted by BruceLee_Reborn
by the way, what kind of atheist are you?
To be honest, I'm not sure how one would go about categorizing atheists. How do we categorize people that don't believe that Elvis is still alive?

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Originally Posted by BruceLee_Reborn
darwinian(there's that image of a monkey in my mind a gain), or something else? and do you believe in evolution?
Yes, I accept that there is an overwhelming amount of evidence that supports the theory (NOT HYPOTHESIS!) of evolution. I accept that conclusion until a better explanation which fits the evidence is presented. My offer to answer any questions/challenges/reservations that you have about ToE over in the evolution thread still stands
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Old 04-15-2007, 03:40 PM   #165
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the THEORY of evolution was founded by charles darwin when he studied finchis on the galapogos (or however it's spelled) islands. what he witnessed was survival of the fittest, which i accept as true, cause logically the most fit will survive to reproduce. no one has witnessed the evolution of a new species. besides, do you REALLY believe the 300000000000000 years ago, you're great^999 grandparent was an ameoba?? i mean, i feel much better knowing that there was an intelligent designer creating all this. wouldn't you?


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Old 04-15-2007, 03:53 PM   #166
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the THEORY of evolution [...]
Yes, the scientific theory of evolution. Like the scientific theories of atoms and gravity. All proven.

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no one has witnessed the evolution of a new species.
Actually, believe it or not... they have. Pretty amazing, isn't it?

Here are some more.

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besides, do you REALLY believe the 300000000000000 years ago, you're great^999 grandparent was an ameoba?? i mean, i feel much better knowing that there was an intelligent designer creating all this. wouldn't you?
Doesn't really matter, when it comes down to truths, right? I don't want the Holocaust to have been real either... it still is.

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Old 04-15-2007, 04:15 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by BruceLee_Reborn
the THEORY of evolution was founded by charles darwin when he studied finchis on the galapogos (or however it's spelled) islands. what he witnessed was survival of the fittest, which i accept as true, cause logically the most fit will survive to reproduce.
You're using the word theory out of context. It has a very definitive meaning when used in a scientific context. Wikipedia to the rescue.

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Originally Posted by BruceLee_Reborn
no one has witnessed the evolution of a new species.
Wrong. We discover new species all the time. Some go extinct. Others appear from nowhere. We do observe evolution on the micro scale all the time and there is substantial evidence that shows that it happens on the macro scale as well.

Predictions are just as powerful as observations within the scientific method. If I hypothesize that whales evolved from land mammals, I don't have to have seen it happen with my own eyes to test my hypothesis.

If I look at the modern whale I can find hip and pelvic remnants. From this I can hypothesize that whales evolved from land mammals. From this I can assume that if I look a little bit into the past (a few million years) I can find fossils that are very whale like but have hind legs or flippers (like Basilosaurus). I can hypothesize that if I go back even further (a few more million years), I can find similar fossils of mammals that were equipped for both life on land and life in water (such as Ambulocetus). Finally, I can hypothesize that if I go back even further (more millions of years), I can find fossils of fully land-based mammals that share characteristics with the other fossil finds (like Pakicetids).

So even though there's no possible way that I could have ever witnessed such a transformation with my own eyes, I can certainly find an awful lot of evidence that support my hypothesis. Since I can create similar "family trees" for almost any animal that we know about and make similar predictions, we graduate our hypothesis into theory. Until we can figure out a way to go back in time and witness every single genetic mutation that's ever occurred, we cannot bestow the highest honor possible, which is the status of law. I guess we'll just have to be ok with being 99.99999% certain

Compare that to a few hundred conflicting stories about invisible skydaddies that made everything out of dirt, dust, ash, or clay in a single day and tell me which one of those options seems to make the most sense.

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Originally Posted by BruceLee_Reborn
besides, do you REALLY believe the 300000000000000 years ago, you're great^999 grandparent was an ameoba??
Sure. You have to have single-cell life before you can have multi-cellular life (aka "you have to walk before you can run").

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Originally Posted by BruceLee_Reborn
i mean, i feel much better knowing that there was an intelligent designer creating all this. wouldn't you?
I'd feel better knowing that I was a billionaire, but that isn't going to make it true.

No, I would much rather have the truth than a fable. There's no certainty in fables.

Thanks for reading.

PS: Really though, if we delve into evolution any further, we should take it to the appropriate thread.

Last edited by Achilles; 04-16-2007 at 04:35 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old 04-15-2007, 05:34 PM   #168
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alright, alright. i'll go over there


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Old 06-17-2007, 03:49 AM   #169
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Achilles, I'm going to pick you out here, because of a post I saw you make on the Athiest thread; but I'm only singling you out because you happened to mention it, not because you are alone in this particular train of thought.

You said that religion is harming our lives, but in this I believe you are wrong. I think that religion is how our society was created, its the basis for what we call society. We live by the Ten Commandments, or at least some of them, and to say that that's not right would be wrong.

The Ten Commandments state among other things:
Thou shalt not steal
Thou shalt not murder

Aren't those the ground rules for civilization as we know it? Those are considered to be the worst offenses a man can commit, if you group torture and those sort of things with murder.

And you can even say that adultery is considered a capital offense in the eye of the public, which is what matters most. We all remember Bill Clinton for cheating on Hilary or whatever that situation was (I was too young). As a President I'm sure he was a great one, but the adultery always lingers in my thoughts--and I'd like to think I'm not alone in this--when I think of him.

You may say that George Bush is a bad President because he doesn't consider Athiests people. I've yet to see a President that was an Athiest. I'm not saying that Athiests would be bad Presidents, I'm merely saying that America is without a doubt the greatest country in the world. And when you think of a country as great, you must look to its leaders. So, if America is great, its leaders must have been great. I'm not saying they were great because they believed in God, I'm saying that this country is great because it was built on the beliefs of God.

I've never read the Bible in its entireity, as its way too long, and just didn't quite hook me (reading about God creating the World, while cool, just isn't attention-grabbing). So, maybe I'm wrong in this statment, but I don't think the Bible contradicts itself, nor do I think that Christianity contradicts itself. I'm not sure about this, as I'm not an expert, this is merely what I believe in.

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Old 06-17-2007, 04:24 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by Jedi_Knight_707
I think that religion is how our society was created, its the basis for what we call society. We live by the Ten Commandments,
Which, I might point out, are borrowed versions of already existing moralities. You don't think "don't kill your neighbor and he won't kill you" didn't exist before the Bible was written (or if you want to run with it, before Moses was supposedly around), do you? "I leave you alone and you leave me alone" is a concept that's been around for about as long as there were humans with the capacity to understand it, and it's hardly a concept that can be made any better or worse than believing in a deity.

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Originally Posted by Jedi_Knight_707
As a President I'm sure he was a great one, but the adultery always lingers in my thoughts--and I'd like to think I'm not alone in this--when I think of him.
Clinton wasn't the first politician to be a skirt-chaser and he won't be the last. IMO, though, it's completely irrelevant for someone's qualities as a politician. As long as they can do a good enough job in office, their sex lives are irrelevant. Who they have sex with is their business, and as long as it doesn't interfere with their abilities to be President/something else it should remain theirs.

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Originally Posted by Jedi_Knight_707
You may say that George Bush is a bad President because he doesn't consider Athiests people.
I can think of a whole lot more reasons to consider Bush one of the worst Presidents in our history apart from that, but I'm getting off-topic...

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Originally Posted by Jedi_Knight_707
I've yet to see a President that was an Athiest.
How does this relate to their ability to consider people with diverging religious views people?

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Originally Posted by Jedi_Knight_707
I'm not saying that Athiests would be bad Presidents, I'm merely saying that America is without a doubt the greatest country in the world.
I would disagree. A country is really nothing but the people and the possessions they own in it, and frankly it's extremely arrogant to consider ourselves better than everyone else. No human being is born superior to another, and where they live is not going to change that.

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Originally Posted by Jedi_Knight_707
I've never read the Bible in its entireity, as its way too long,
You've missed out on some stuff. An explanation below the next quote follows:

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Originally Posted by Jedi_Knight_707
So, maybe I'm wrong in this statment, but I don't think the Bible contradicts itself, nor do I think that Christianity contradicts itself. I'm not sure about this, as I'm not an expert, this is merely what I believe in.
I think whether the Bible contradicts itself or not is secondary to some of the absolutely monstrous things it claims:

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bible
'If your brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife tries to secretly entice you, telling you to go and worship other gods, gods of people living near you, or far from you, or anywhere on earth, do not listen to him.'

'You must kill them. Show them no pity. And your hand must strike the first blow.'

'Then the hands of all the people. You shall stone them to death.'
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bible
'If a man happens to meet a virgin woman who is not engaged to be married...'

'...And he seizes her and rapes her...'

'...but is caught in the act...'

'...the rapist must pay the girl's father fifty silver shekels.'

'She must marry the rapist, because he has violated her. And so long as he lives, he may not divorce her.'
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bible
'If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not listen to the voice of his father...'

'...or his mother...'

'...even when they punish him...'

'...his father and mother must take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town.'

'They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard."'

'All the men of the town must then stone him to death. You must banish this evil from among you.'
More quotes... (Kudos to Achilles for the link in his sig)

Cruelty and violence in the Bible

Intolerance


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Old 06-17-2007, 04:52 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Which, I might point out, are borrowed versions of already existing moralities. You don't think "don't kill your neighbor and he won't kill you" didn't exist before the Bible was written (or if you want to run with it, before Moses was supposedly around), do you? "I leave you alone and you leave me alone" is a concept that's been around for about as long as there were humans with the capacity to understand it, and it's hardly a concept that can be made any better or worse than believing in a deity.

Well, of course its borrowed, every religion borrows something from a different religion. But would you not say that the Founding Fathers were Christians, and one might say that they were inspired in part because of the Bible?


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Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Clinton wasn't the first politician to be a skirt-chaser and he won't be the last. IMO, though, it's completely irrelevant for someone's qualities as a politician. As long as they can do a good enough job in office, their sex lives are irrelevant. Who they have sex with is their business, and as long as it doesn't interfere with their abilities to be President/something else it should remain theirs.

As long as it doesn't interfere with their abilities, then it should be irrelevent. But with the media being the huge God (no pun intended) it is nowadays, it is going to interfere. It may be unfortunate, but its the truth. America, on the whole, cares about celebreties, and the President is a celebrity. So, the President is chewed out more so than anybody, as he is the leader. So, if a President is caught in a sex scandal, then the world is gonna know about it, and going to care about it. This would distract the President from his duties. Hence, it interferes.


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Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
I can think of a whole lot more reasons to consider Bush one of the worst Presidents in our history apart from that, but I'm getting off-topic...

Just using that as an example.



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Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
I would disagree. A country is really nothing but the people and the possessions they own in it, and frankly it's extremely arrogant to consider ourselves better than everyone else. No human being is born superior to another, and where they live is not going to change that.

To say that would be naive. A country is its military and political prowess. To say it simpler, a country is its image. And America projects the image of unity, freedom, strength, but most importantly: power. We are the Empire, just a more forgiving Empire. We've got the Death Star: our image. People are scared by us, we intimidate other countries. We have been truly attacked twice on our soil in the past 100 years or so. Pearl Harbor and 9/11. Countries are afraid to attack us.



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Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
I think whether the Bible contradicts itself or not is secondary to some of the absolutely monstrous things it claims:
It was a different time back then. Monstrous now, normal then. At least, that's what I think. No one knows what actually went on back.

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Old 06-17-2007, 05:05 AM   #172
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The Ten Commandments state among other things:
Thou shalt not steal
Thou shalt not murder

Aren't those the ground rules for civilization as we know it?
Yes, but they certainly do not originally come from the Bible. Altruism is a base instinct in most, if not all mammals, as far as I know. It's been with us since before we evolved into homo sapiens, hundreds of thousands of years ago.

And we actually live quite differently than the 10 commandments want us to. There's no law against coveting thine neighbour's goods, in fact, the capitalist system of the West seems to revolve around getting your hands on as much as or more than what your buddies and family members have. Whatever happened to Thou shalt not covet thine neighbor's ox, or wife, or PlayStation?

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I'm not saying they were great because they believed in God, I'm saying that this country is great because it was built on the beliefs of God.
The statement that the USA was originally a Christian nation is history revisionism from religious fundamentalists. Several of the founding fathers of the US were atheists, and according to sources such as the Treaty of Tripoli, the US was not started as a Christian State.

Oh, and regarding the Golden Rule:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Confucius
What you do not wish upon yourself, extend not to others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah
When an alien lives with you in your land, do not mistreat him. The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahabharata
This is the sum of duty; do naught unto others what you would not have them do unto you.
Many of these originate litterally centuries before the birth of Christ.

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Old 06-17-2007, 07:00 AM   #173
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I'd just like to point out that the supposed Golden Rule in the Sermon on the Mount/Sermon on the Plain/somewhere in Mark is not Jesus teaching: ""Do unto others as you would have done unto you" - this is the law and the prophets". Jesus is setting a standard higher than the old - that you must treat others better than you would wish to be treated yourself. That's the point of the Beatitudes/Six Antitheses, and the parables of Matthew 25 (Where the Beatitudes are outlooks, Matthew 25 is the practical applications, IIRC).



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Old 06-17-2007, 08:48 AM   #174
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I'd just like to point out that a lot of the Bible quotes ED quoted have, as far as I understand it, been superceded by New Testement, Jesus dying for our sins, ect. I'd also like to point out that such trains of thought are absolute BS by any standered. Then again, daring God's athority by declaring that even he couldn't sink the Titanic probably seemed like a good idea at the time.
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Old 06-17-2007, 10:04 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
I'd just like to point out that a lot of the Bible quotes ED quoted have, as far as I understand it, been superceded by New Testement, Jesus dying for our sins, ect.
God needs to look into this great thing called Concept Mapping before he starts writing things down.
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Old 06-17-2007, 04:05 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by Jedi_Knight_707
To say that would be naive. A country is its military and political prowess. To say it simpler, a country is its image. And America projects the image of unity, freedom, strength, but most importantly: power.
It scares me whenever countries adopt the idea that they infallible, all-powerful bastions of freedom and might. It's attitudes like that which led to the WWs and Iraq.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedi_Knight_707
It was a different time back then. Monstrous now, normal then.
Erm, why is it you've been advocating how important it is for people to follow the word of a book you've labeled as "monstrous"?

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Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
I'd just like to point out that a lot of the Bible quotes ED quoted have, as far as I understand it, been superceded by New Testement, Jesus dying for our sins, ect.
Might I ask why God never stated the Old Testament is now non-canon?

No problem, I've got some New Testament quotes to provide as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew 5:32
'Whoever divorces someone...'

'...and marries another...'

'...commits adultery.' (Punishable by death, I might add)

'Whoever marries a divorced woman...'

'...commits adultery.'
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew 5:38
'You have heard how it was said "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth."'

But I say to you: offer no resistance to the evildoer.'

'If someone strikes you on the right cheek...'

'...offer him the other as well.'
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew 10:34
'Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth.'

'I have not come to bring peace but a sword.'

'I have come to bring fire to the earth.'

'And how I wish it were blazing already!'
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew 5:27-28
'You have heard that it was said, "Do not commit adultery."'

'I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully...'

'...has already committed adultery with her in his heart.'


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Old 06-17-2007, 06:24 PM   #177
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I think it's less a case of the Old Testement being non canon and more a case of it explaining how things were. Like a history book, saying this was crime and punishment in those times.

Christians are not evil people. If you can believe that, then it's a start.
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Old 06-17-2007, 06:44 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
I think it's less a case of the Old Testement being non canon and more a case of it explaining how things were. Like a history book, saying this was crime and punishment in those times.

Christians are not evil people. If you can believe that, then it's a start.

I can say that the old testiment has some groundings in how we live our lives though. The Ten Commandments was a cornerstone in early law.


Getting back to topic, I'm going to say you need to have just as much faith to believe no god exists as someone that believes in god.


Also Devon you need to study your history.

World War I was started due to a guy being assassinated and his country demanded retribution and went to invade another country. This caused countries allied to both countries to get involved starting the first world war.

World War II was started by Japanese expansion in the Pacific in conjunction with Germany, Italy, and the Soviet Union expanding their empires. Though Germany later backstabbed the Soviet Union. The Japanese then turned around and made a grievous error in judgement when they attacked Pearl Harbor which dragged the US into the war officially.

1st Persian Gulf War was to liberate Kuwait from Iraq which had invaded.

2nd Gulf War was partially due to bad intelligence combined with (not sure if US intelligence learned of this before we invaded) the fact that France was taking bribes from Saddam to vote against any resolution that would authorize force to ensure Saddam wasn't making WMDs. Further one could argue that Saddam smuggled a bunch of stuff to Syria while we were trying to get the UN on board.
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Old 06-17-2007, 07:34 PM   #179
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Gulf War was partially due to bad intelligence [...]
Nonsense. It was started with lies and deliberate misleading. I think the Downing Street Memos and the other debates over at the Senate, in particular elaborate posts such as this one more than prove as much.

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Further one could argue that Saddam smuggled a bunch of stuff to Syria while we were trying to get the UN on board.
Yup. One could also argue that the government of Iceland is secretly building a Borg Cube underneath its capital of Reykjavik. Without evidence, though, the statement is worthless diplomatically and politically.

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Getting back to topic, I'm going to say you need to have just as much faith to believe no god exists as someone that believes in god.
Seeing that science is covering more and more of the roles of religion, I'm inclined to disagree.

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Old 06-18-2007, 07:06 AM   #180
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And America projects the image of unity, freedom, strength, but most importantly: power.
I don't know about the rest of the world, but where I live the image is more like: power, greed and arogance.

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We are the Empire, just a more forgiving Empire.
Yes, because the U.S have "never" staged coups in countries that it didn't like...............

[/QUOTE]People are scared of us [/QUOTE]

And this makes the U.S great?

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we intimidate other countries.
Some countries, others like Iran, don't apear to care much

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We have been truly attacked twice on our soil in the past 100 years or so
If terrorist attacks counts as attacks, the U.S is far from the country who have suffered most attacks

Anyway, this is geting off topic, If you want you can make another thread.

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Old 06-18-2007, 07:35 AM   #181
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Countries are afraid to attack us.
Hey, or maybe they just don't want to attack other countries? I mean, why don't you go over to you neighbour and beat the crap out of him and take over his house with pool? Because you're scared or because you don't feel like doing so?


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Old 06-18-2007, 08:35 AM   #182
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No, it's just impractical. JK707's attitude is one reason a lot of people quite like the idea



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Old 06-18-2007, 11:01 AM   #183
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Nonsense. It was started with lies and deliberate misleading. I think the Downing Street Memos and the other debates over at the Senate, in particular elaborate posts such as this one more than prove as much.
Not likely, seriously if Bush deliberately did something like that he would have been impeached by now.

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Originally Posted by Dagobahn Eagle
Yup. One could also argue that the government of Iceland is secretly building a Borg Cube underneath its capital of Reykjavik. Without evidence, though, the statement is worthless diplomatically and politically.
There is a significant difference because we know that Saddam had WMDs, what's bothering me is where did several tons of Chemical Weapons, anthrax, and other biological agents went. If you don't believe he ever had any WMDs ask the Kurds.

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Seeing that science is covering more and more of the roles of religion, I'm inclined to disagree.
Many scientists are actually just out to try to prove god doesn't exist. There is a bunch of things that could be used to prove the existance of god as well.
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Old 06-18-2007, 12:39 PM   #184
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Many scientists are actually just out to try to prove god doesn't exist. There is a bunch of things that could be used to prove the existance of god as well.
I'm going to go ahead and guess that you don't actually know many scientists, because any scientist who is out to "prove god doesn't exist" isn't a very good scientist.

I say this for several reasons, the main one being that is 100% impossible to do so, and anyone with a solid background in the sciences will know this. They'll also be aware that it's impossible to prove that god does exist.

By very definition any god exists completely outside the realm of science, there exists no test that can prove or disprove anything related to the supernatural.

What scientists are trying to do is learn new things about how the universe works by developing new hypothesis and tests that can provide useful information and allow them to make sound predictions.



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Old 06-18-2007, 02:15 PM   #185
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I think it's less a case of the Old Testement being non canon and more a case of it explaining how things were.
Would it not be prudent to include, "hey Bible-readers, just so you know, the first half of this book is to explain what things were like back then"? With how the Bible is, as it and many other people claim, the literal word of God, it ought to be extremely clear on what parts of it should taken seriously. It's been nothing but the contrary.

That's one of the problems with holy texts. Since they're holy and unquestionable, you'll have people who still follow laws meant for civilizations that existed thousands of years ago while there's now way to rewrite them like with today's laws.

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Like a history book, saying this was crime and punishment in those times.
Which a fair number of people today are still saying is the unquestionable word of God. If it was a history book someone in the Bible should've said so, rather than declaring anyone who did not follow it a godless heretic who'd burn in hell.

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Christians are not evil people. If you can believe that, then it's a start.
I do not believe them to be inherently immoral people. I do, however, believe that your capacity to be a moral person is less inhibited if you do not follow any religions.

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Originally Posted by GarfieldJL
Also Devon you need to study your history.

World War I was started due to a guy being assassinated and his country demanded retribution and went to invade another country. This caused countries allied to both countries to get involved starting the first world war.
I would say the same to you. Franz Ferdinand's assassination just an excuse for an extremely nationalist group of nations to fight a war they'd been eager to have for years with each other, thanks in part to the attitude I criticized Jedi_Knight_707 for (belief in being the best country on earth, being strong and powerful, the sole voice of reason in the world, etc). That one heir to one country being shot is too minor a thing to spark a continent-wide war over, there had to have been and there were background reasons.

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Originally Posted by GarfieldJL
World War II was started by Japanese expansion in the Pacific in conjunction with Germany, Italy, and the Soviet Union expanding their empires.
You should look in to the reason why they were expanding their empires. A great deal of that was due to, again, the arrogant attitude I described above.

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Not likely, seriously if Bush deliberately did something like that he would have been impeached by now.
Would it? The decision to invade Iraq was a profitable one for the oil industry and the military-industrial complex. With how much influence the people connected to those unfortunately possess in our government and how closely tied the Bush family is to those people, good luck the impeachment.

The invasion stank worse than sauerkraut soaked in oil on a hot day. A group closely tied to his family and his father in particular (the CIA) approaches Bush, saying that there are WMDs in the very country his father coincidentally invaded a presidency earlier but never finished the job with. Never mind the complete lack of any evidence there were WMDs or how the CIA was basing their position on assumptions rather than proof, or that the invasion would be beneficial to the industries that had gotten the Bush family to where it was... (Though this is getting very off-topic, perhaps it would be better in another thread)


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Old 06-18-2007, 03:32 PM   #186
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I say this for several reasons, the main one being that is 100% impossible to do so
Only a Sith deals in absolutes, ET

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Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Would it not be prudent to include, "hey Bible-readers, just so you know, the first half of this book is to explain what things were like back then"? With how the Bible is, as it and many other people claim, the literal word of God, it ought to be extremely clear on what parts of it should taken seriously. It's been nothing but the contrary.
Re-read the Sermon on the Mount. It seems to me that it's fairly clear. If that doesn't help, IIRC, 'Acts' contains some stuff on the Council of Jerusalem, which is explicit on what of the OT applies post-NT. If not, I'm sure Paul will have something to say on the subject. He usually does.

I think one of the mistakes being made here is treating the Bible as a single, cohesive work. Plainly it isn't. It was written over millennia, and rather than being a single work, or picture or pattern, I would say that certainly the Old Testament is rather a written account of the ongoing divine revelation to our antecedants.



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Old 06-18-2007, 05:42 PM   #187
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Only a Sith deals in absolutes, ET
It is actually 100% impossible to prove a negative. In other words, no one can prove for sure that a given thing doesn't exist.

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Not likely, seriously if Bush deliberately did something like that he would have been impeached by now.
That's like looking at a rapist who went free and going 'nah, if he was really guilty, he'd have been in jail by now'.

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There is a significant difference because we know that Saddam had WMDs, what's bothering me is where did several tons of Chemical Weapons, anthrax, and other biological agents went.
And if you had bothered to read the post I linked to, it'd have answered your question.


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Old 06-18-2007, 05:47 PM   #188
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So you mean to tell me it never existed, don't give me that garbage because he used chemical weapons against the Kurds, it was one of the charges brought against Saddam in his trial.

You can't tell me he disposed of everything because he kept moving things around on the UN weapon inspectors, if he did destroy the stuff he wouldn't have anything to hide.


Back to original topic, there are several things that seem to indicate that there was divine intervention. The very fact life exists, because it is extremely difficult for amino acids to form because there are a lot of chemicals that more readily react to the components of amino acids than the building blocks react with each other.
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Old 06-18-2007, 06:00 PM   #189
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I do not believe them to be inherently immoral people. I do, however, believe that your capacity to be a moral person is less inhibited if you do not follow any religions.
You're forgetting one very important facet here. There's a general rule that if one's religion interfere's with their humanity, then there's something wrong with their religion. Example? Condemning homosexuals. Not quite, it's the condemnation of homosexual activity. Witches, not just condemning Harry Potter but wanting to burn those who declare themselves witches at the stake. It says that we are meant to follow the law, and murdering someone who is supposed to be a witch is against the law. This is the stumbling block abortion clinic bombers, plane hijackers, ect, stumble over.
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Old 06-18-2007, 06:28 PM   #190
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Garfield, instead of putting words in my mouth, I suggest you actually read the post I linked to. And the Downing Street Memos.

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Re-read the Sermon on the Mount. It seems to me that it's fairly clear.
Not to me. And after half an encyclopedia article later, it's even less so.

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Old 06-18-2007, 06:32 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by GarfieldJL
The very fact life exists, because it is extremely difficult for amino acids to form because there are a lot of chemicals that more readily react to the components of amino acids than the building blocks react with each other.
Just because it was extremely unlikely does not prove anything one way or the other. That is the point. A god or gods are just impossible to prove or disprove, no matter what methodology you take.



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Old 06-18-2007, 06:36 PM   #192
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So why do people try and disprove the existence of God, or perhaps more accurately they hound people about why there is no God?
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Old 06-18-2007, 06:50 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by Dagobahn Eagle
It is actually 100% impossible to prove a negative. In other words, no one can prove for sure that a given thing doesn't exist.
Can you quote the portion in that link that supports that claim, DE? I'm not finding it.
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Old 06-18-2007, 07:29 PM   #194
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So why do people try and disprove the existence of God, or perhaps more accurately they hound people about why there is no God?
That is a valid point I think. If there is no way to prove or disprove the existence of something, then why bother being on either side of the spectrum?

I'll ask you a similar question:

Why do people try and prove the existence of God, or perhaps more accurately they hound people about why there is a God?

I think you would be amazed at how much hounding there is of the religious and the non-religious by other religious people who believe themselves to be infallible. Atheists and the religious have a lot in common, particularly the fact both like to state that their belief system is right and yours is wrong by trying to show evidence to their opinion. Another reason why I personally believe right and wrong to be a relative point of view.

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Only a Sith deals in absolutes, ET.
I guess that makes the majority of humanity a Sith in my opinion. Lovely Star Wars quote, but it comes off as really silly when used in a real debate :P

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Just because it was extremely unlikely does not prove anything one way or the other. That is the point. A god or gods are just impossible to prove or disprove, no matter what methodology you take.
Impossible to prove, most likely. Even if we somehow proved existence of a God or the proof that a God does not exist, I doubt the world would change all too much. People would accept it and deny it, which, to be quite honest, is exactly what we do to this day.

I think it is a silly debate personally because I both believe and do not believe. You cannot prove to me a God exists, but you also cannot prove to me a God does not exist. I will not state my view as fact, but as opinion and viewpoint.
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Old 06-18-2007, 08:26 PM   #195
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Can you quote the portion in that link that supports that claim, DE? I'm not finding it.
I'm sorry, wrong article. Here you go. Although it should be mentioned that the appropriate section (Theism) lacks citations.

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Old 06-18-2007, 08:50 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by True_Avery
That is a valid point I think. If there is no way to prove or disprove the existence of something, then why bother being on either side of the spectrum?

I'll ask you a similar question:

Why do people try and prove the existence of God, or perhaps more accurately they hound people about why there is a God?

I think you would be amazed at how much hounding there is of the religious and the non-religious by other religious people who believe themselves to be infallible. Atheists and the religious have a lot in common, particularly the fact both like to state that their belief system is right and yours is wrong by trying to show evidence to their opinion. Another reason why I personally believe right and wrong to be a relative point of view.
Oh I don't think I would be amazed, they go about it quite a bit. To answer your question though I think it comes down to beliefs, whatever they may be. I'm sure there would be war between Atheists who believe in science and Atheists who don't, Atheists who comdemn religion and those who don't, the same as there is with Prodestent, Roman Catholic, Jewish, Islam, ect. Perhaps a better question would be why do people want to go beyond the acceptance of their beliefs and go into trying to make others have the same beliefs?
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Old 06-19-2007, 06:12 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by True_Avery
That is a valid point I think. If there is no way to prove or disprove the existence of something, then why bother being on either side of the spectrum?
That leads to the question of why bother with the possible existence of god for the whole life then? Why wars about gods? Hm.


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Another reason why I personally believe right and wrong to be a relative point of view.
the right and wrong of a statement, idea, conclusion, whatever is not relative. The belief if something is right or wrong is. One can believe it is right there is one god who fiddled together this universe. One can believe it is right there is no god around and the universe popped out of nowhere just to exist. Both maybe wrong because in fact papa-god and mama-god were very in love with each other, so they went to their favourite Asian restaurant to eat spaghetti and meatballs. And after that they made god-love. They made god-love to hot and demanding that the rubber they used broke. But nothing happened so the got themselves a god-dog. And that god-dog makes god-dog-poo. And every time he makes a pile of god-dog-poo, a new universe is created.


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Impossible to prove, most likely. Even if we somehow proved existence of a God or the proof that a God does not exist, I doubt the world would change all too much. People would accept it and deny it, which, to be quite honest, is exactly what we do to this day.
I think scientists would try to catch an exemplar of god for studying purposes like if it can differ between colours, perform simple tasks or if it has some kind of social behaviour (which I doubt in case of a single deity). I think in case we find proof for god to exist the most thrilling question would be: which RELIGION does she follow?


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I think it is a silly debate personally because I both believe and do not believe. You cannot prove to me a God exists, but you also cannot prove to me a God does not exist.
That is funny because most people just "believe" in what they can examine through their physical senses, except for that one thing. Also, that is one useless statement to make. You either do believe in god, or do not. Your statement, opinion, view, or whatever you call it is merely a way to coward yourself out of trouble to explain why you believe or not, because grandma would be shocked and your friend would laugh, or the other way around. In the end your statement indicates that you don't believe else you would say so.

Calling someone a coward, or making that inference, is flaming here. Don't flame. --Jae



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Old 06-19-2007, 06:31 AM   #198
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The whole point of Faith is that it cannot be proved, or it isn't Faith. God's existence can not be proven or disproven, you either believe or you don't.
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Old 06-19-2007, 06:55 AM   #199
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the right and wrong of a statement, idea, conclusion, whatever is not relative. The belief if something is right or wrong is. One can believe it is right there is one god who fiddled together this universe. One can believe it is right there is no god around and the universe popped out of nowhere just to exist. Both maybe wrong because in fact papa-god and mama-god were very in love with each other, so they went to their favourite Asian restaurant to eat spaghetti and meatballs. And after that they made god-love. They made god-love to hot and demanding that the rubber they used broke. But nothing happened so the got themselves a god-dog. And that god-dog makes god-dog-poo. And every time he makes a pile of god-dog-poo, a new universe is created.
The idea of right and wrong is belief and opinion created by the viewpoint of someone based on the society they live in and the upbringing they received, whether it be by themselves or from their parents. One person can say God does not exist, another can say God does exist. Both believe they are right and the other is wrong. Thus, the idea (or at least the belief) of right and wrong is relative to me because I believe that every action, every opinion and veiwpoint taken has an equally "good" and "bad" repercussion and that no opinion is right or wrong and that applies to my opinion as well. Although I contradict myself in having an opinion of my own. I'm not exactly sure if you are mocking me, disagreeing with me, or agreeing with me to be honest.

Although science does have some ideas that can be stated to be right and wrong. If one person says "You are breathing!" and the other person says "No, I am not." then the other would be wrong in this day and age. But, if the other person states that they are merely absorbing the life given to them by god everytime they draw breath and that it is not the air that keeps them alive, but god, how do you prove him wrong? Sure, science states that when you breath the oxygen is used to power your muscles and brain and it has been concluded as such, but we make scientific discoveries all the time that disprove theories and conclusions before us. Maybe in a thousand years we can be proven wrong on that like so many other things. Maybe reality itself can be proven wrong somehow. Science and Religion are simply ideas being applied to what we have and a conclusion being created from that information. At the core, they are almost the same to me and the constant bickering does not help either side.


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I think scientists would try to catch an exemplar of god for studying purposes like if it can differ between colours, perform simple tasks or if it has some kind of social behaviour (which I doubt in case of a single deity). I think in case we find proof for god to exist the most thrilling question would be: which RELIGION does she follow?
Indeed, and if we could not get an answer I suspect people would probably fight over the right to call god theirs.


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That is funny because most people just "believe" in what they can examine through their physical senses, except for that one thing. Also, that is one useless statement to make. You either do believe in god, or do not. Your statement, opinion, view, or whatever you call it is merely a way to coward yourself out of trouble to explain why you believe or not, because grandma would be shocked and your friend would laugh, or the other way around. In the end your statement indicates that you don't believe else you would say so.
That is a pretty black and white way to look at the world. The truth is I do not care. I neither believe a god exists, or a god does not exist because there is no evidence to my eyes that either one is fact. I have yet to see someone give me infallible proof that a god exists or does not exist. So, I sit in the middle between the two and watch them yell at eachother as I simply live my life in the gray. Some of us find the gray or the illusion of the gray quite a comfortable place to live.

And so that makes me a coward? I have taken the trouble to explain my viewpoint in as few words possible. I am far more afraid of what people might think of other aspects of who I am then what religion I am a follower to. I could care less what my family thinks of my veiws because they do not have control over who I am, and my friends do not care or they would not be my friends.

I do not really mind if you hate me or like me for my opinion because if I really cared I would not dare post, but please do not disrespect me by calling me a coward and labeling me to a side because I will not pick a side in this timeless debate.

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Old 06-19-2007, 07:52 AM   #200
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Not to me. And after half an encyclopedia article later, it's even less so.
Fair enough. For this discussion, I'll be using BibleGateway.com's NIV translation, just so you know. If you really want, we can go back to the koine, but I'll have to brush up beforehand. Might be able to manage the Vulgate. I suppose what I was getting at as the key phrase in particular was:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew 5
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
(Embolding added by me)

Furthermore, the Six Antitheses (the six sets of paragraphs beginning 'You have heard how it was said', and 'but I say to you' set a standard higher than the old standard of 'do unto others'.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew 5
Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
^Also translated in the Jerusalem Bible as "you must be perfect" - probably an imperative of some sort, but I'm not sure. So I don't know about you, but to me it seems quite clear that where in the Jewish law there had been specific precepts, Jesus has radicalised them to being broad principles of behaviour. And if we are to 'be perfect', then laws on rape etc clearly no longer apply - such things are no longer applicable since they are clearly unacceptable to Jesus, and so, presumably are part of the 'wide path'.

That's the way it seems to me, anyway



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