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Thread: Ok so we all agree that Special moves (sans lunge)are useless, how do we improve them
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Old 04-24-2007, 11:34 PM   #1
deuxhero
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Ok so we all agree that Special moves (sans lunge)are useless, how do we improve them

without going overboard?

Well the dual saber twirl (crouch hold attack and move forward) could be greatly improved by allowing the user to walk (but not run) when it is in use.


the Katas I have no idea, and the rest I can't remeber off the top of my head.
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Old 04-25-2007, 03:02 AM   #2
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DFA's were great before the 10fp for jumps was instated, now a single DFA costs 13 FP to do! Not worth it anymore.
Jumping to a platform some 20 feet high costs more than half of your FP bar too.

The long range DFA's like the ones Djem-So and Juyo have are not worth it anymore either, but would be far better if the FP drain was decreased and they would knock someone down on-hit.

Lunges are :thumbdown:

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Old 04-25-2007, 03:14 AM   #3
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I dunno, I think lunges are pretty useful when the enemy is low on DP. It's like a surefire way to kill them because people don't usually parry low brows
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Old 04-25-2007, 05:13 AM   #4
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I think the FP increase of DFA's was an accident, since it includes a jump, jump was increased of 8, didn't a DFA cost 5 FP before?
The very least that could be done is reduce it's cost to 11 (jump + attack).
The knocking DFAs seem interesting too.
Although in the movies a DFA didn't knock, what about making it give mishap and/or drain more DP than normal swings or fakes (if it's not done already)?
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Old 04-25-2007, 06:10 AM   #5
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They can't have been an accident since I specifically asked for gunners not being able to jump with certain guns in their hands so to balance hybrids a bit more, Razor however didn't agree and instead said he would up the jump cost for initial jumping.

The only problem is that he didn't lower the cost for sustaining Force jump after the initial jump, which I hope will happen for the next version.

I can't remember seeing a long DFA in the movies anywhere but it seems like the effect for it. I mean, putting my whole body mass and using gravity to come down on you with a single slash is likely going to knock you down. The attack is very costly and very hard to perform, if sped up it could be a new way to stop runners as well.

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Old 04-25-2007, 06:58 AM   #6
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Exactly, it's an accident : I mean it's wanted to increase jump cost, but not to put the DFA to 13, that's because the jump cost increased.
Well I'm not sure...
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Old 04-25-2007, 07:36 AM   #7
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The DFA's cost is not enough to warrant it being an accident, he didn't increase the DFA's cost but he increased JUMP's cost. You need to jump to use the DFA.

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Old 04-25-2007, 11:39 AM   #8
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Man that's exactly what I'm saying...
Accident means "not on purpose".
The purpose was to increase jump, and as a result, it also increased DFA's cost... since it's a jump in it... Try to understand what I say instead of thinking what I say is wrong, my english is not that bad is it?
So the fact that DFA costs 13 FP is definitely an accident, the goal was to increase cost of jump, not to put DFA's cost on 13.
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Old 04-25-2007, 12:07 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxstate
The only problem is that he didn't lower the cost for sustaining Force jump after the initial jump, which I hope will happen for the next version.
Bug Ticket.


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Old 04-25-2007, 12:18 PM   #10
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Done und done.

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Old 04-25-2007, 05:52 PM   #11
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And don't forget to reduce the cost of cartwheels and maybe backflips back to 3 fp. When the heck did those get so high?! I understand trying to nerf bunny hopping, but the original cost of backflips and cart wheels was there to allow low level jumps in combat so you could have more movie realistic jumping dynamics rather than just walking all the time. If we need to nerf them in anyway, nerf the distance of the backflip or carwheel, not the FP cost.


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Old 04-25-2007, 06:06 PM   #12
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Yea it costs 13 at the moment.
Should not be more than 10. Never.
But I suggest 5 FP to make them more useable.
Even for a normal jump 10 FP is a lot. If you want to prevent bunnyhopping, there are other ways, in MB2 you get slowed down when jump, so you can bunnyhop, but you'll be far slower than someone who is walking ! And if it's still not enough, you can add a cooldown to jump, of 1 second or something... then nobody will bunnyhop ever again.
But the FP drain is maybe not the appropriate solution. 5 FP could do, 6 for DFA because it adds an attack to it, and also 5 FP for cartwheel and backflip...
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Old 04-25-2007, 07:02 PM   #13
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I don't think we need to change the 10 FP for jumps. We probably just need to lower the FP cost in the cases of backflips, cartwheels, etc.


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Old 04-26-2007, 03:18 AM   #14
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And DFA's, don't forget DFA's.

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Old 04-26-2007, 05:49 AM   #15
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Alright, and how many will these special jumps cost (DFA, cartwheel, backflip)? Same as a normal jump? or 5 for the two and 6 for DFA?
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Old 04-26-2007, 06:07 AM   #16
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Why not just have a progressive jump cost for different weapon types? For example, UDM told me that ensi's separated the weapons into different categories. So let's say we have light, medium, and heavy weapons categories.

Light (blaster, lightsaber): Jump costs the same as before 009u
Medium (E-11, Bowcaster, Disruptor? Fletchette?): Normal jump costs 10 FP as is now
Heavy (Rocket Launcher, DC-15): Normal jump costs 10 FP, Force Jump regresses to one level below current (If Jump 3, then now Jump 2; if Jump 1, then now Jump 0)

I just find that as a Jedi, a tiny jump to get on top of a crate costing 10 FP is pretty ridiculous. Besides, I think that a progressive jump cost seems more realistic considering what you're currently carrying and how that would fatigue you.


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Old 04-26-2007, 06:09 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanqexe
Why not just have a progressive jump cost for different weapon types? For example, UDM told me that ensi's separated the weapons into different categories. So let's say we have light, medium, and heavy weapons categories.

Light (blaster, lightsaber): Jump costs the same as before 009u
Medium: Normal jump costs 10 FP as is now
Heavy: Normal jump costs 10 FP, Force Jump regresses to one level below current (If Jump 3, then now Jump 2; if Jump 1, then now Jump 0)

I just find that as a Jedi, a tiny jump to get on top of a crate costing 10 FP is pretty ridiculous. Besides, I think that a progressive jump cost seems more realistic considering what you're currently carrying and how that would fatigue you.
That's kind of similar to the original idea I had, although mine was a bit more simplistic to save us some time.

Hybrid balancing is top-priority for now so lets get brainstorming.

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Old 04-26-2007, 06:13 AM   #18
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Or just halve the normal jump cost in case of lightsaber use. *shrug* Lots of ways to get around this issue, but imposing 10 FP cost on everybody IMO isn't the best way to get rid of bunny hopping gunners.


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Old 04-26-2007, 07:09 AM   #19
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Too bad you don't post more often as it seems I'm usually outnumbered when it comes to sharing ideas This is what I think too. We need the most simple solutions for balance that don't totally castrate certain classes so we can move on and get working on more graphical and fun stuff like skills, effects and force powers.

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Old 04-26-2007, 02:29 PM   #20
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Would you prefer it if I tie half my brain behind my back?

Anyway, I agree that it might be cool to have some sort of incumerance system, but I think it should be based on the number/type of weapons you're carrying and not just the one you're currently using.

Plus, maybe jetpacks shouldn't care about the weightload (and therefore be the logical choice for gunners).

But, on the other hand, this will primarily affect gunners, is that something we really want to do?


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Old 04-26-2007, 02:40 PM   #21
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Jump should maybe cost 2 FP + 1 per weapon you are carrying, or can you add different values according to the weapons owned? like rocket launcher gives you 3, disruptor 2, pistol 0, E11 1...etc?

Also, now we are talking about jetpack, don't you find the way jetpack acts totally stupid? (Dude, that's basejka...) Is it possible to make it like MB's which is much more predictable and realistic?
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Old 04-26-2007, 02:53 PM   #22
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I suppose we could just increase the FP cost, but I think that might be less feedback than what people would expect from being overweight.

As for the jetpack, yes, we could change the way it works. I just haven't gotten around to it yet. What sort of different behavior would you like? Personally, I'd prefer more "rocket-like" movement instead of the current system's hovering.


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Old 04-26-2007, 02:55 PM   #23
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Oh yeah, maybe you could reduce running speed according to the number of weapons/items carried, and their respective weight.

As for jetpack, I don't really get what you mean with rocket-like... You played MB2, right? (even a long time ago, or MB1, the jetpack was the same, or any JK2 mod that had jetpack, like jediplus)
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Old 04-26-2007, 03:48 PM   #24
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Encumbrance system may be one of the big things to balance out hybrid classes. Since a pure Jedi preferentially spends points on Force/saber skills, they can run and jump with relative ease - in fact, it's one of their important defenses in light of being blobbed and hit with rockets. On the other hand if one chooses to be a hybrid, they'll have to trade in some of the benefits of having Force abilities for reduced running speed or increased jump fatigue...or both. It seems "realistic" to approach balancing in this manner.

Going back to the DFAs, I accidentally discovered that the range of my Djem So DFA was reduced when I used the new Hard Edge weapon on JKFiles...perhaps we should eliminate or drastically shorten the distance of the initial jump to make these DFAs useful again. Let's say that the drawback is if the opponent doesn't slash you at a vulnerable spot (or something like that) then they get massive DP drain for Djem So DFA, MP increase for Juyo DFA. If you get hit before you're halfway through the DFA then you take damage ignoring DP (because you're in the air) or you get instantly killed.

...What IS Juyo's perk supposed to be anyway? It's the only saber style with no perk right now (other than staff and dual). I'm still rooting for a 2-second parry paralysis...


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Old 04-26-2007, 04:30 PM   #25
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Don't take any offense Razor.. I'm just sick and tired of hybrids and want to get them done with already

As heavy weapons already disallow certain force powers from being used I wouldn't mind jump being one of them.

So lets get this straight:

Issue 1:
Hybrids using jump to dodge saber attacks.
-New jumping fp cost nerfed Jedi's jump too much
+Either nerf jump (disable it) while using guns, or make gunners gain a ****load of mishap when they do it.

Issue 2:
Base Jetpack is ghey:
-It has a bad physics system, hovers and can't go higher after it has reached a certain limit which makes it useless on big maps.
-Jet fuel recharges too fast, making flame hit and runs possible. (1/10 of the bar is enough to burst you away at least 50 feet...)
+Fine-tune the system a little
+Decrease the regeneration rate

Issue 3:
-Juyo has no perk
+ ?????
lol just kidding. Finding a perk for Juyo is hard because noone is really ready to assign it a single benefit as it has many. I think we should concentrate on it's chaotic and unpredictable nature and make IT work on mishap instead of Makashi.

But we could also just give the user a real Juyo situation; power attacks that can initiate locks on will. This would work like this:

Option 1: User holds both buttons to initiate a power attack, if both are held and the power attack is an unparried hit, a lock commences.

Option 2: User initiates a power attack by holding both buttons again, but this time lets go of secondary after the power attack has been initiated. So when his attack hits, he's purely holding attack. This would result in no lock.

This way users won't be able to just jump into the style and will have to learn to use it correctly but will benefit a lot from it when they do. You can really take someone by surprise if they're expecting a lock but get none. It's a total mindfruck.

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Old 04-26-2007, 04:57 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheShaman
As for jetpack, I don't really get what you mean with rocket-like... You played MB2, right? (even a long time ago, or MB1, the jetpack was the same, or any JK2 mod that had jetpack, like jediplus)
play force mod III some time i think thats the kind of jet pack he wants and personally i would love to see that over our hover one

http://jediknight2.filefront.com/fil...nstaller;29610

ahh that was a cool mod if just to have my minions

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Old 04-26-2007, 05:55 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanqexe
Encumbrance system may be one of the big things to balance out hybrid classes.
Ok, we can give it a shot. Bug ticket the concept.
Quote:
Going back to the DFAs, I accidentally discovered that the range of my Djem So DFA was reduced when I used the new Hard Edge weapon on JKFiles...perhaps we should eliminate or drastically shorten the distance of the initial jump to make these DFAs useful again.
So you're talking about the distance you jump when DFAing and not the amount of jump you gotta do before starting the DFA, right?
Quote:
I'm still rooting for a 2-second parry paralysis...
I think the Gods of Balance would frown on that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxState
Don't take any offense Razor.. I'm just sick and tired of hybrids and want to get them done with already
None taken. I've been trying to address this problem as specifics are uncovered.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxstate
Issue 1:
Hybrids using jump to dodge saber attacks.
-New jumping fp cost nerfed Jedi's jump too much
+Either nerf jump (disable it) while using guns, or make gunners gain a ****load of mishap when they do it.
Bug ticket the jump FP cost issue. I'll go in and reduce the "continue" FP cost for the Jedi jumps.

Also, go ahead and bug ticket the idea of increasing the MP cost for firing a gun in mid-air.
Quote:
-It has a bad physics system, hovers and can't go higher after it has reached a certain limit which makes it useless on big maps.
Add that to the jetpack retooling bug ticket.
Quote:
-Jet fuel recharges too fast, making flame hit and runs possible. (1/10 of the bar is enough to burst you away at least 50 feet...)
Bug ticket.
Quote:
But we could also just give the user a real Juyo situation; power attacks that can initiate locks on will. This would work like this:
I don't get it. Isn't that basically just the normal attack fake behavior?


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Old 04-26-2007, 05:59 PM   #28
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Currently if saberlocks are on, a succesful non-parried power attack will always result in a lock. With the new changes a Juyo user can himself control whenever a saber lock happens (if he hits with it and it's unparried). I don't think there is a way of preventing a lock from happening after a succesful power attack currently.

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Old 04-26-2007, 06:13 PM   #29
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Oh, so you could let go of a button and avoid the saberlock?


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Old 04-26-2007, 06:13 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxstate
Currently if saberlocks are on, a succesful non-parried power attack will always result in a lock. With the new changes a Juyo user can himself control whenever a saber lock happens (if he hits with it and it's unparried). I don't think there is a way of preventing a lock from happening after a succesful power attack currently.
I don't get it either as a perk. It would be more like a preference that would never be used unless the "unlocking" attack fake also caused a slowbounce because they get an extra hit with it. Even then, it would just be a preference more than a perk. In the bug ticket I just recently submitted for juyos lack of perk, I suggested that all special moves (DFAs, maybe lunge, cart wheel, roll stab, and maybe kick) have less FP cost, therefore making stronger or surprise moves cheaper the styles perk, and more like the actual wiki Juyo.


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Old 04-26-2007, 06:18 PM   #31
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Well, maybe we could make it so that Juyo attack fakes don't cause saberlocks and just mishaps the other player. But, this would mean that Juyo users couldn't superbreak either. :|


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Old 04-26-2007, 06:21 PM   #32
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What's the problem with letting them use both though? Via my idea I mean.

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Old 04-26-2007, 06:30 PM   #33
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mmm, wouldn't it be a bit weird to have Juyo have a movement skill that other styles can't use?


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Old 04-26-2007, 06:32 PM   #34
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*coughs*notaperkitsapreference*coughs* I mean c'mon, give it something that makes it a true Juyo and comparible to the other saber offense 3 forms.


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Old 04-26-2007, 06:40 PM   #35
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I've already suggested free attack fakes. Running out of ideas.


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Old 04-26-2007, 07:52 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by razorace
I've already suggested free attack fakes. Running out of ideas.
But I just gave one!!!! LOL


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Old 04-27-2007, 05:09 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by razorace
mmm, wouldn't it be a bit weird to have Juyo have a movement skill that other styles can't use?
It's all up to the user if they know how to use this skill properly so I think it would be a good idea.

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Old 04-27-2007, 05:27 AM   #38
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At the moment I don't think saberlocks occur everytime you land an unparried fake on the enemy, it seems to have a 50% chance to happen in this case.
So making it 100% with Juyo (even if you have to use it properly) is a far bigger advantage on the other styles ! Saberlocks drain a lot of DP, can cause mishap or death of the enemy !
I already imagine you fighting with Juyo: fake lock fake lock fake superbreak, enemy dead.
I'm rather for your first idea, inverting the perk with Makashi, mishap giver, which is more realistic. (Although this would be rather Vapaad, but anyway you made Juyo a single saber stance, and both are form 7, so I won't annoy you with that.)
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Old 04-27-2007, 05:42 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheShaman
At the moment I don't think saberlocks occur everytime you land an unparried fake on the enemy, it seems to have a 50% chance to happen in this case.
So making it 100% with Juyo (even if you have to use it properly) is a far bigger advantage on the other styles ! Saberlocks drain a lot of DP, can cause mishap or death of the enemy !
I already imagine you fighting with Juyo: fake lock fake lock fake superbreak, enemy dead.
I'm rather for your first idea, inverting the perk with Makashi, mishap giver, which is more realistic. (Although this would be rather Vapaad, but anyway you made Juyo a single saber stance, and both are form 7, so I won't annoy you with that.)
Vaapad is just Mace Windu's take on Juyo, Juyo is not a staff style.

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Old 04-27-2007, 06:07 AM   #40
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I didn't say Juyo was a staff style. But we don't see much of Juyo's single saber, just a bit on Tatooine and at the end of DOTF.
But Vapaad is, although basically the same as Juyo, very different. It's darker, and probably more confusing, whereas Juyo focuses on agility and strength.
I was saying that because at the moment, staff has "Shii-cho".
According to the animations, I'd rather call purple "Vapaad", and staff stance "Juyo", but maybe it won't be possible since staff is yellow in basejka...
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