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Thread: Ok so we all agree that Special moves (sans lunge)are useless, how do we improve them
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Old 04-27-2007, 11:00 AM   #41
Tanqexe
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Since we're thinking of having separate upgrades for gunners, we should do the same for sabers. Special moves and perks should be buyable upgrades...and Max is right, the pace of combat now in 009u pretty much cancels out the perks that we do have; they don't play a significant role in saber combat like they should.

First of all, is Max's idea difficult to code? If not then we can just try it out and see how it fits with the rest. Besides, Djem So already has a "special" move: unparried attack fakes do extra DP damage (although making it FP drain instead would be nice). I'd also suggest that when someone attacks with a "released" attack fake, if unparried it makes the mishap meter go up.

So where does that leave Makashi? Either beef up the mishap damage from normal strikes or lower the thresholds for mishap events (disarms, knockdowns, bounces). Or since Makashi is passive aggressive, Makashi's special move can be that you can cause disarm or get bonus DP damage with an attack fake following a successful riposte (would be a very nice bonus considering Makashi is one of the weaker styles, and it would simulate the surprise factor of a precision cut).

What of Soresu? Beef up its defense abilities, make it a style that someone will actually want to use. Make it so successful ripostes helps you regain DP when you're below 25 DP. We had that code before in an earlier version.

Making the styles more unique will give people more creativity in how they deal with duels.

Gotta go, but I'm just saying that making "perks" a more active, strategic effort will make fighting against and with each style more interesting...because right now they don't amount to too much. I don't see many people fighting with Soresu or Makashi, and there's a reason for that.

Edit: Yeah razor, eliminate or drastically reduce the distance of the DFA so that they're more practical to use.



Last edited by Tanqexe; 04-27-2007 at 11:15 AM.
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Old 04-27-2007, 02:51 PM   #42
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What about making perks affect saber vs gun, too?
Here are a few ideas:
First of all, an idea would be to be able to buy the x styles you want, x is your level of saber offense. You could choose any of them, no order restriction.

Shii-cho is the basic form, so leaving it as it is now could do, just a higher MP regen for being balanced.

Makashi is a saber vs saber form. It should have a malus against guns, like 1 more DP cost for non-manually-deflected shots. As for the saber vs saber, when you attack parry someone, he should gain more MP than with another (I suggested in another post or thread that parry gives 4 MP to other, and attack parry only 2 because it forces mishap, so with makashi, it could give 4 as well). Also, winning a saberlock (no superbreak attempt) should give MP to the enemy.

Soresu, the defense form, is very good against blasters, so deflecting a shot should cost 1 DP less, no matter if you are manually deflecting or not. Against sabers, normal parries and attack parries should both cost half of the normal DP cost.

Djem-so, the offensive form, is also good against blasters, so manually deflected shots (with a windup fake or a swing) should cost half of normal DP cost. Against sabers, since it's a strength based form, it should cost 1 FP to block or parry or attack parry.
(no extra DP cost for fakes, as it is at the moment)

Juyo (coughvaapadcoughmaxstatecough), the confusing form, should give 1 MP when blocked and attack fakes should cost 25% more DP to block (as well as 1 MP given) because it's unpredictable.

I don't have any idea for duals and staff yet, I'll think about it.
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Old 04-27-2007, 02:54 PM   #43
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We've gone through that so many times, first, it wouldn't be noticable ingame. Second, that's a very shallow interpretation of the wikipedia article on the saber styles.

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Old 04-27-2007, 02:58 PM   #44
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Well, I'm just proposing, what I did is just augmenting the perks a bit, and also retooled them according to wikipedia, as you said... But I prefer passive perks than the control of saberlocks as you proposed earlier.
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Old 04-27-2007, 03:00 PM   #45
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The passive ones are unnoticable. There is no valid reason to switch to any other style save for makashi or shii-cho for decreasing/increasing mishap. Even shii-cho is getting irrelevant with the speed of our combat system

I don't know.. maybe I was dumb in the first place for wanting perks. Sure they're fun and all and really give a twist to saber combat but if everyone can get every style what's the point?

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Old 04-27-2007, 03:02 PM   #46
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That's why I said making the styles buyable would be better.
1 style per offene level, so you have to choose.

(btw go on hamachi, you are afk without being afk)
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Old 04-27-2007, 03:10 PM   #47
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We've discussed that too and it has been ticketed already.

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Old 04-27-2007, 07:48 PM   #48
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I don't know. I like Shaman's suggestions.

I know, I know. This is a reversal on my part, but I'm warming up to the idea of the 7 saber forms.


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Old 04-27-2007, 11:03 PM   #49
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We can name them at will, just need someone to do the additional graphics.


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Old 04-28-2007, 06:11 AM   #50
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Or not to hurt anybody who holds dear the saber styles (and to avoid things like "it's not juyo it's vapaad!" or "it's not djem so it's shien!"...) what about just putting a roman number of the form?
Shii-cho would be "I" in yellow, Makashi would be "II" in cyan, Soresu would be "III" in blue, Ataru/Ataro/Sokan would be "IV" in green, Shien/Djem-so would be "V" in red, Niman would be "VI" in orange, and Juyo/Vapaad would be "VII" in purple.
Although we don't have animations for form IV and VI... Maybe forget them and call the 7 forms the 5 current we have + dual + staff? but what is their name (dual tra'kata or so, but staff? juyo as well? heh...) or number?
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Old 04-28-2007, 08:29 AM   #51
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Styles aren't limited to how many sabers you can carry. You can use duals and still have a Djem-So type style and mentality nigra.

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Old 04-28-2007, 12:10 PM   #52
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Yes but it's not possible in JKA, I'm afraid. Dual and staff = 1 style each, in a poor game like this.
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Old 04-28-2007, 02:49 PM   #53
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*sigh* Max and I had similar ideas about the saber forms before.

I'm making new graphical icons for the saber forms (think KotOR), so no need to worry about whether the display name is the form name or the number.


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Old 04-28-2007, 03:04 PM   #54
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Good, try to make them so we recognize them without having to learn them by heart (that would confuse less a newcomer), I know it's hard, but do your best
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Old 04-28-2007, 03:59 PM   #55
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Do you have an example? I'm confused how a name would be easier to remember/discuss than a picture.


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Old 04-28-2007, 05:04 PM   #56
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Here's what I think...

Now that bjuster's helping us with some nice new menus to play with:

In the Force menu, instead of having Saber Offense/Defense, we can have a simple three-tier category:

Lightsaber Proficiency:
I. Initiate - Enable lightsaber use (Shii-cho), access to lightsaber menu and general saber skill upgrades
II. Knight - Enables use of up to 2 styles; Soresu, Djem So enabled
III. Weaponmaster - Enables use of up to 3 styles; Juyo, Makashi, Dual/Staff enabled

Now in the saber menu:

Top row will have the list of available styles. Selecting one style unhides the row of upgrades dealing with that style.

General saber skill upgrades:

Deflect:
I. Initiate - Pretty much Defense 1, particularly the time window between successful deflections; 180 degree deflection coverage; shots to rear 180 degrees do 150% DP damage; manual reflection goes to crosshair 15% of the time
II. Advanced - Defense 2, decreased time window between successful deflections; 270 degree deflection coverage; shots to rear 90 degrees do 150% DP damage; manual reflection goes to crosshair 30% of the time
III. Master - Defense 3, further decreased time window between successful deflections; 360 degree deflection coverage; manual reflection goes to crosshair 50% of the time

Dueling:
I. Initiate - -1 DP cost to parrying; 180 degree vulnerability to back hits, 150% damage
II. Advanced - -2 DP cost to parrying; 90 degree vulnerability to back hits, 150% damage
III. Master - -4 DP cost to parrying; no vulnerability to back hits

Acrobatics:
I. Initiate - -1 FP cost to normal jumps, cartwheels, flips, and wall-running
II. Advanced - -2 FP cost for acrobatics; successful flipping DFA causes slowbounce
III. Master - -3 FP cost for acrobatics; successful flipping DFA causes knockdown

---
-Some other general saber skills, can't think right now
---


Each saber form has a skill you automatically start off with, plus a buyable passive skill, defense skill, and attack skill.

Shii-Cho
Innate – 125% MP regen, 15 DP damage swings
Passive – Harmony – 150% MP regen when standing still
Defense – Footwork – Timing crouch forces a stumble from knockdown-inducing attacks (rockets, clone rifle, flechette, lightning), cooldown time 5 seconds
Attack – Can’t think of one at the moment, probably will…

Makashi
Innate – Unparried regular attacks do 3 MP damage, +2 DP cost to auto-deflect, 14 DP damage swings
Passive – Flurry - Unparried regular attacks do 5 MP damage
Defense – Master Riposte – Successful ripostes deliver 4 DP damage
Attack – Precision – Unparried attack fakes only reduce 3 MP for opponent; holding down attack button during quick lock causes stumble if enemy has 5-9 MP, disarm if 10-15 MP

Soresu
Innate – -2 DP damage reduction from deflect/block, 12 DP damage swings
Passive – Spinning Shield – 50% DP damage reduction to deflect/block/parries/ripostes, manual deflect only requires fake instead of full swing
Defense – Resilience – Ripostes give back 20 DP if DP is in critical range
Attack – Opportunity - +4 DP damage to regular swings on enemies in mishap events

Ataru
(Ha! IF it even gets incorporated!)

Djem So
Innate – Unparried attack fakes do +1 FP damage, reduced MP regained from parries (-1? -2?), 17 DP damage swings
Passive – Perseverence – 125% DP regen when standing still
Defense – Bolt Reflect – Auto deflect can reflect 20% of shots back to gunner
Attack – Hammer – Unparried attacks do +1 FP damage, unparried attack fakes do +2 FP damage, enables leaping DFA (unparried hit results in heavy bounce)

Juyo
Innate – Fakes near opponent do +2 DP damage, +1 MP/DP cost from blocks, 16 DP damage swings
Passive – Wraith - Rolls don’t require jump to initiate; directional button + double tap crouch
Defense – Redirection - Successful manual reflect causes gunners to mishap according to their mishap range; can manual reflect force lightning if FP is greater than enemy’s
Attack – Chaotic Rhythm – Allows released attack fake swing; 115% DP damage from unparried released attack, enables spinning DFA (unparried hit results in stumble)


Question: What're the current characteristics of Staff and Dual?

Saber Staff
Innate
Passive
Defense
Attack

Jar'Kai
Innate
Passive
Defense
Attack



Last edited by Tanqexe; 04-30-2007 at 07:32 AM.
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Old 04-29-2007, 06:29 AM   #57
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Shii-cho review: (I like the overall thing.)

Makashi review: (A few good ideas, but I disagree with many things)
1) I'd rather make Juyo give MP than Makashi.
2) I don't understand when Makashi deals 5 MP instead of 3.
3) It's far too much MP for Makashi! in 5 attacks of 3 MP, the enemy has full MP! It should be 1, not 3! And when you give 5, it should be 2! But once again, this is rather for Juyo
4) Why should unparried attack fakes reduce the enemy MP? Want to lose?

Soresu review: (Mostly good ideas, 1 thing I don't understand or disagree with)
1) Spinning shield affect "block" (50% cost), do you mean saber block? If no, explain, if yes, I don't agree, Soresu has not just a good defense to help newbies, it's the perfect defense for skilled defenders (people who can parry and attack parry whenever they want, contrary to me) so it should have very good parry or riposte (attack parry) abilities, but not general blocking (that would be rather staff).

Djem-so review: (I disagree on some things, and don't understand 1 thing)
1) You should not have a bonus when auto-blocking shots, but when swing blocking them! Djem so is an active and offensive style, you are always moving and swinging in it, contrary to Soresu who is more passive and defensive.
2) I don't understand at all the hammer part. (What I understood is that Attack fakes do 1 FP damage, and that attacks do 1 FP damage, and also that attack fakes do 2 FP damage. What the hell? And the DFA is always enabled... heeh?)
3) Also I don't think Djem-so should be fake-based. It's not confusing, it's quite fast, and strong swings, you repeat over and over, until your opponent dies tired. So normal attacks AND attack fakes, should both drain 1 FP to enemy, not ONLY attack fakes.

Juyo review: (I disagree with several things, if not all, I'm a pain, right?)
1) I don't understand your first line.
2) I simply don't like the roll idea. (Sorry...)
3) I don't like the gunner mishap idea either. And lightning should not be reflectable, even if it's kinda done in EP3, I consider it as a mistake, and it's rather a force power than an ability of a style. (Really sorry...)
4) In fact, for released/unreleased, it should be like that IMO :
released : no chance to lock. 125% DP damage.
unreleased : just like the other styles' attack fakes.
So you can choose more DP damage rather than a lock chance.
5) Enabling DFA? what the hell? this is always enabled...


Current staff:
50% DP cost to block/parry/riposte enemy attacks. Swing costs 2 FP. Can hit 2 times with a swing.

Current duals:
No FP cost for direction changes in attack fakes. Swing costs 2 FP. Can hit 2 times with a swing.
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Old 04-29-2007, 02:10 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheShaman
Shii-cho review: (I like the overall thing.)
Got an idea for an attack skill?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheShaman
Makashi review: (A few good ideas, but I disagree with many things)
1) I'd rather make Juyo give MP than Makashi.
2) I don't understand when Makashi deals 5 MP instead of 3.
3) It's far too much MP for Makashi! in 5 attacks of 3 MP, the enemy has full MP! It should be 1, not 3! And when you give 5, it should be 2! But once again, this is rather for Juyo
4) Why should unparried attack fakes reduce the enemy MP? Want to lose?
1) Makashi at 14 DP is already on the weak end of the saber damage spectrum, especially for a Weaponmaster level style. Adding an additional dimension to its attack (MP) damage compensates for this and reflects its passive-aggressive nature.
2) Makashi without any upgrades deals 3 MP damage. The passive upgrade increases the innate ability of Makashi to do MP damage. That’s pretty much all it is.
3) If someone has to use skillpoints to get to Saber Proficiency level 3, then the styles there better be worth it. Makashi is underused, and it being focused on MP damage more than makes up for its already weak DP attack damage and makes all those skill points invested to get to it worth it. If 3 and 5 MP damage are too much, just go with 2 and 4. But again, Makashi should be a lethal enough style to invest so many skill points for. Only 1 or 2 MP damage at the current pace of combat is pitiful.
4) You misunderstood. When an opponent enters a mishap after being attack faked successfully, their mishap meter goes down a certain amount. The idea is that even though this happens, the amount that it goes down is not as much as it usually is. Thus the enemy doesn’t fully recover from a mishap because he still has some leftover MP damage.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheShaman
Soresu review: (Mostly good ideas, 1 thing I don't understand or disagree with)
1) Spinning shield affect "block" (50% cost), do you mean saber block? If no, explain, if yes, I don't agree, Soresu has not just a good defense to help newbies, it's the perfect defense for skilled defenders (people who can parry and attack parry whenever they want, contrary to me) so it should have very good parry or riposte (attack parry) abilities, but not general blocking (that would be rather staff).
1) If you think about it, saber staff is more offense oriented than defense oriented because it’s awkward and hard to defend when you have a big vulnerable zone (the handle). So no, staff should not have a strong defense as you suggest. As for the 50% block cost, I was intending for it to include blocks against sabers as it would be an upgrade to its innate ability to reduce DP damage from blocking. Good for newbies, even better for advanced users. But if this is too powerful, then the auto-block upgrade doesn’t have to be as much as 50%, but still higher than the innate block reduction. These values are flexible so as to not make Soresu too defensively powerful, but still good enough to be of value for people to WANT to use it in gunner and saber battles alike.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheShaman
Djem-so review: (I disagree on some things, and don't understand 1 thing)
1) You should not have a bonus when auto-blocking shots, but when swing blocking them! Djem so is an active and offensive style, you are always moving and swinging in it, contrary to Soresu who is more passive and defensive.
2) I don't understand at all the hammer part. (What I understood is that Attack fakes do 1 FP damage, and that attacks do 1 FP damage, and also that attack fakes do 2 FP damage. What the hell? And the DFA is always enabled... heeh?)
3) Also I don't think Djem-so should be fake-based. It's not confusing, it's quite fast, and strong swings, you repeat over and over, until your opponent dies tired. So normal attacks AND attack fakes, should both drain 1 FP to enemy, not ONLY attack fakes.
1) We can’t simulate a Djem So user actively reflecting shots behind him and to his side because we’ve only got a mouse and a silly cursor to use. That’s why this skill will be useful and simulates the Shien aspects of Form V. Reflection itself is aggressive.
2) Again, the INNATE ability of Djem So (without a passive, defensive, or offensive upgrade) is that its attack fakes can do FP damage. When you upgrade with the Hammer skill, attack fakes can now do MORE FP damage, and now even your attacks can deal FP damage. As for the DFA – I don’t know if it’s possible to code (it should considering all styles have the yellow DFA), but if it is, what I described is that un-upgraded Djem So does not have jump chopping DFA until you buy the attack skill.
3) It’s a fact that attack fakes deal more DP damage than a regular swing hence the other name for an attack fake is a power attack. That’s the point I want to emphasize; plus I don’t like the notion of an un-upgraded Djem So being able to only spam regular swings to tire someone out. When you upgrade with Hammer, then you can do FP damage with both types of attacks. Against an upgraded Djem So user, you better be good with parries and ripostes to prevent yourself from getting tired out.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheShaman
Juyo review: (I disagree with several things, if not all, I'm a pain, right?)
1) I don't understand your first line.
2) I simply don't like the roll idea. (Sorry...)
3) I don't like the gunner mishap idea either. And lightning should not be reflectable, even if it's kinda done in EP3, I consider it as a mistake, and it's rather a force power than an ability of a style. (Really sorry...)
4) In fact, for released/unreleased, it should be like that IMO :
released : no chance to lock. 125% DP damage.
unreleased : just like the other styles' attack fakes.
So you can choose more DP damage rather than a lock chance.
5) Enabling DFA? what the hell? this is always enabled...
1) Un-upgraded Juyo users can deal minor DP damage from doing wind-up fakes when they’re close to an opponent.
2) The roll idea is a way to surprise and confuse the enemy. Here you are, all in your face with your opponent, then all of a sudden you roll to his side and strike him. It makes combat against a Juyo user interesting and unpredictable, not simply stat-wise.
3) Just like Makashi, Juyo is a Weaponmaster level style. If so many skill points are invested already to get this style, then the style itself and its upgrades should be worth the cost. The point is for the defense skill to be anti-gunner and anti-Force in a way that is slightly better than lower level styles. Even the reflect lightning aspect is conditional to how much FP you have, and I don’t want that aspect to be some omnipotent skill, either. Besides, how well you manually reflect is still dependent on your skill to time those reflections and on the probability of reflection.
4) Um…actually that’s what I wrote.
5) See #3 from Djem So section.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheShaman
Current staff:
50% DP cost to block/parry/riposte enemy attacks. Swing costs 2 FP. Can hit 2 times with a swing.

Current duals:
No FP cost for direction changes in attack fakes. Swing costs 2 FP. Can hit 2 times with a swing.
OK, what I've found from looking through the big ol' changelog is the following:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enhanced changelog
  • Dual style has a base DP damage of 13.
  • Staff style has a base DP damage of 13.
  • The block cost of the staff and dual lunge moves is 75% of the normal DP.
  • Dual saber users can block saber attacks if they only have one of their sabers.
  • Dual sabers attacks cost 1 FP.
  • Staffs no longer get a DP reduction bonus for saber blocks.
  • The staff saber's one-handed spinning attack does 2x normal DP and breaks thru the block/Dodge defenses of fatigued players (just like the single saber lunge).
  • Staff sabers don't have extra DP costs for blocking rear attacks.
  • Staff attacks cost 1 FP.
Okay, to reiterate...the saber staff isn't all that good of a defensive weapon. It has difficulty parrying stabs, it has a big vulnerable spot in its defense because there's a huge handle. It's also called a Sith lightsaber sometimes because the nature of the saber staff is aggressive, frowned upon by Jedi. Its rapid attacks make it difficult to parry, and it can strike opponents in front AND back simultaneously. It's also rare because it's hard to master the awkwardness of using two deadly blades coming out of a single handle without amputating or skewering yourself. Staff looks like a pretty good defensive weapon because in the movies, Maul had to defend himself 2 on 1...but he's a master staff wielder and was able to defend himself for that long. A less skilled wielder wouldn't be able to use the saber staff to block and parry like he did with such ease – and even then there were a few blocks where Maul looked awkward and slightly unbalanced. The aim of the saber staff is thus “big body count.”

Translating this to OJP, staff should be something that against multiple opponents is very rewarding offensively but poor defensively (unless in the hands of a skilled user).

Staff:
Innate: Fast attack speed, unparried 2-hit (3-hit?) attack combos do +2 DP damage, +2 DP cost to auto-deflect, 1.2x DP drain from unparried lunges/stabs, DP damage 13 per blade.
Passive:
Defense:
Attack:

(still thinking)

Now Jar’Kai gives you the freedom of flexibility to have fluid offense and defense. Two blades can be used for offense, two blades can be used for defense, or one blade can be used for offense while the other one defends. A lot of room to play with here.


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Old 04-29-2007, 03:35 PM   #59
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Shii-cho:
Maybe when attacking and being parried or riposted or so, you should gain less MP because Shii-cho uses basic moves which won't put your balance into trouble.
Otherwise I don't know.

Makashi:
1) When I say Juyo should have this ability, it doesn't mean the Makashi has nothing instead. I just don't find it really apropriate, it's rather the confusing Juyo/Vapaad which does this. As I proposed earlier, maybe give an advantage to it when winning a lock, give MP to the enemy as well as the usual DP damage.
2) 3 MP is faaaaaar too much, its 20% of the bar, MP goes up to 15, not 100! (I got tricked by that earlier, too.) And what is this passive upgrade? You have to buy the things you are listing? I thought it was the style's predetermined properties.
3) All styles should have the same price, none should be more expensive, nor better, all styles should be as strong as others. 2 and 4 per attack?!! it's still damn much, you don't regen 1 MP per second, I think, and with makashi you can hit 2 or 3 times per second, it means that in 4 blows (16 MP), your enemy will be disarmed or knocked down! and after 2 blows he would be stumbled! that's terribly powerful. 1-2 seems fine, to me, but for Juyo... once again...
4) Okay, I understand the idea, but an attack fake doesn't cause a mishap, it can cause a saberlock, which can cause a mishap if you don't superbreak. That's a good idea, it's nearly like what I said before, losing a saberlock against a Makashi user should give you MP (which compensates the MP loss due to mishap suffering).

Soresu:
I'm against boosting all the defence abilities at once, I'll repeat myself, but Soresu should be the perfect defense for a skilled player. I like everything in your Soresu idea except the 50% cost for block in the spinning shield.

Djem-so:
1) Still, your thing fits more Soresu than Djem-so. Reflecting with auto-block is not, and will never be in any case, aggressive! It's defense. Aggressive would be swinging to make it accurate.
2) So this confirms, you want to add upgrades for the styles. I see, didn't expect that. I didn't understand that because I thought everything was in the properties, didn't know it was additional powerups. I see what you mean, kinda a good idea then, although IMO Djem-so should not be based on fakes much, but nevermind.
3) 3 FP damage would be a bit too much with hammer. 1 for normal attacks and 2 for fakes would be fine (I'd even rather 1, but the debate would be endless...)

Juyo:
1) DP damage with a windup fake? But the enemy doesn't even have to block... why this idea? It's weird... and the +1 MP/DP cost from blocks? is it for you or the opponent?
2) This is more Juyo than Vapaad, but I agree, it could be a good idea to make it more unpredictable.
3) I don't like the style level idea, all styles are equal, just not focussed on the same thing. The lightning reflect would be hard to do, too. It's not the fact that it would be anti gunner that bugs me, it's the fact that a shot causes mishap... try to find something else, like accurate reflection even behind you or something...
4) Yea, but no, you wrote 115%, it's not enough. And it was to recap, to make sure I understood.
5) OK. Good idea.

Staff:
This is still a problem for me since the only staff we see is used in a Juyo way... which is already for single. (Note: Maul was on the defense a lot. But that might be due to the 2v1)
What about making him un-disarmable? It would be pretty hard to disarm a staff user with 2 blades...

Dual:
No idea.
Dooku got rid of Anakin's second saber quickly, and Anakin wasn't skilled in using dual sabers.

Also, note about general DP damage of styles. Making them unique would be better.
(exemple: Djem so 18, Juyo 17, Shii-cho 16, Makashi 15, Soresu 14, Dual 13 per saber, Staff 12 per blade. Yes I think Soresu should do more, it's mostly two handed, contrary to dual, and dual can do 26 if you hit with both.)
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Old 04-29-2007, 05:15 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheShaman
Shii-cho:
Maybe when attacking and being parried or riposted or so, you should gain less MP because Shii-cho uses basic moves which won't put your balance into trouble.
Otherwise I don't know.
You gain MP from a successful swing. Successful swings making you gain slightly less MP may be the way to go.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheShaman
Makashi:
1) When I say Juyo should have this ability, it doesn't mean the Makashi has nothing instead. I just don't find it really apropriate, it's rather the confusing Juyo/Vapaad which does this. As I proposed earlier, maybe give an advantage to it when winning a lock, give MP to the enemy as well as the usual DP damage.
2) 3 MP is faaaaaar too much, its 20% of the bar, MP goes up to 15, not 100! (I got tricked by that earlier, too.) And what is this passive upgrade? You have to buy the things you are listing? I thought it was the style's predetermined properties.
3) All styles should have the same price, none should be more expensive, nor better, all styles should be as strong as others. 2 and 4 per attack?!! it's still damn much, you don't regen 1 MP per second, I think, and with makashi you can hit 2 or 3 times per second, it means that in 4 blows (16 MP), your enemy will be disarmed or knocked down! and after 2 blows he would be stumbled! that's terribly powerful. 1-2 seems fine, to me, but for Juyo... once again...
4) Okay, I understand the idea, but an attack fake doesn't cause a mishap, it can cause a saberlock, which can cause a mishap if you don't superbreak. That's a good idea, it's nearly like what I said before, losing a saberlock against a Makashi user should give you MP (which compensates the MP loss due to mishap suffering).
1) If you read the Wookieepedia entry on Makashi:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wookieepedia
Feints would also be commonly used to confuse or set-up their opponents for a trap, a tactic that Count Dooku commonly used in his duels during the Clone Wars. Precise footwork and movements were required for maintaining proper distance from the opponent during defense and/or when moving in for an attack. The blade manipulation required for this form was very refined and required intense focus. Timing, accuracy, and skill, rather than strength, were relied on to defeat one's opponent, and with a skilled practitioner, the results were extremely potent.
Even in the movies, you can see the quick and subtle angle changes that Dooku employs in the first Obi-Wan vs Dooku and Anakin vs Dooku duels. So Juyo isn't the only style where unpredictability is incorporated; they're just approached differently. Unlike Juyo, which is more free-form and kinetic, Makashi doesn't require any acrobatics and employs a passive-aggressive philosophy of speed, accuracy, and fine blade manipulation instead of strength. Thus Makashi should be more of an MP dealer. Giving Juyo MP damage in addition to its already high DP damage would be overkill.

2)You are thinking about this in terms of if someone doesn't know a thing about parrying. If the opponent parries then they don't get that mishap bump. Just like in the movies, it takes some skill to go against the duelist form. And I know the mishap bar's max is 15. I want the Makashi MP damage to be significant enough for someone to pay attention to their MP meter during the duel. It's an aspect that gets way underplayed in the current pace of combat.

3) No, the styles are not "equal" because there's no such metric to determine that. They all have different stats to begin with. The key is to balance the differences through tactics and skill. With each increasing Proficiency level the styles you acquire will have more drastic strengths and weaknesses. That's how I want to go about balancing the styles. It's a tier system, so if you want to purchase level 3 styles, then the strengths better be worth the skill point cost, but at the cost of weaknesses that you have to make up for with your own skill and strategies. BaseJKA was the same way, too. You start out with Yellow, which had no strengths or weaknesses, then Blue, which was fast, good against lots of people but didn't have much attack strength, and finally Red, which was slow as hell (liable to get you killed) but very powerful when it lands.

4) That's what I meant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheShaman
Soresu:
I'm against boosting all the defence abilities at once, I'll repeat myself, but Soresu should be the perfect defense for a skilled player. I like everything in your Soresu idea except the 50% cost for block in the spinning shield.
The 50% block cost is simply a boost upgrade for Soresu's innate ability to do that. Again, if that amount is too much, then it can be lowered until it's satisfactory. The aim is to give even newbies a slightly better chance of survival, but for a Soresu user to be a real tank, they have to master parries and ripostes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheShaman
Djem-so:
1) Still, your thing fits more Soresu than Djem-so. Reflecting with auto-block is not, and will never be in any case, aggressive! It's defense. Aggressive would be swinging to make it accurate.
2) So this confirms, you want to add upgrades for the styles. I see, didn't expect that. I didn't understand that because I thought everything was in the properties, didn't know it was additional powerups. I see what you mean, kinda a good idea then, although IMO Djem-so should not be based on fakes much, but nevermind.
3) 3 FP damage would be a bit too much with hammer. 1 for normal attacks and 2 for fakes would be fine (I'd even rather 1, but the debate would be endless...)
1) Soresu is a passive combat philosophy, so predominant deflection is more a Soresu trait. Bolt reflection is an aggressive act, and it is more a characteristic of Form V. And again, since we can't perfectly emulate the ability of a lightsaber wielder to be capable of reflecting bolts back in direction that they're not facing, this is the best way to do it. This is an aggressive defense, just not "player" active. If people feel like reflect should be boosted, then that can be included, but if you also bought Deflect 3, then you're already good enough to have one in two shots go back to the cross hair; more is overkill IMO.
2)Huh? the first thing I said before I launched into the saber style list was, "Each saber form has a skill you automatically start off with, plus a buyable passive skill, defense skill, and attack skill." Did you miss that? Regarding attack fakes, with the current setup they're not spammed as often as attack swings now (thank goodness). Without buying a skill, regular swings shouldn't have an FP drain effect already. What else are we left with? Attack fakes.
3) I never said anything about 3 FP damage. The upgrades are not cumulative, they replace the innate skills that an un-upgraded saber form has.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheShaman
Juyo:
1) DP damage with a windup fake? But the enemy doesn't even have to block... why this idea? It's weird... and the +1 MP/DP cost from blocks? is it for you or the opponent?
2) This is more Juyo than Vapaad, but I agree, it could be a good idea to make it more unpredictable.
3) I don't like the style level idea, all styles are equal, just not focussed on the same thing. The lightning reflect would be hard to do, too. It's not the fact that it would be anti gunner that bugs me, it's the fact that a shot causes mishap... try to find something else, like accurate reflection even behind you or something...
4) Yea, but no, you wrote 115%, it's not enough. And it was to recap, to make sure I understood.
5) OK. Good idea.
1) Damage from windup fake is to make Juyo combat up close and personal. It simulates Juyo in that it's like tapping you with a light strike then sudden hitting you again with a hard slash. I'm trying to introduce features that will doesn't make Juyo's unpredictability dependent on stats but on the inherent skill of the player.
2) I don't recall ever talking about Vapaad...
3) You're at Weaponmaster level because you choose to focus on lightsaber combat. Even right now, no, not all styles are equal (like I said previously) because you need Offense III, a further 8 points, to get to Djem So, Makashi, and Juyo. But you're right, they're focused on different things. Juyo is inherently a rare and deadly form of mainly offensive combat; its free-form is a double edged sword requiring a lot of skill. Hence the increased penalty to bad defense (blocking and deflecting, forgot to mention that), which if you can correctly manual deflect then you're OK. If you can't parry well, then you're in for some trouble. But if you are good enough to be able to parry well and manual deflect well, your skill makes up for the inherent weakness. If you're skilled enough to use the skill upgrades to the fullest, then you'll be a lightsaber combat monster - but you'll still have some weaknesses that other stylists can exploit.

The lightning reflect is just an idea for a dedicated duelist (one who's invested so many skill points into lightsabers) to fight against Force users and gunners. Likewise causing mishap on gunners. Anyone else can come up with something to further that goal. If you don't want to invest in these skills then you can invest them in other things, like a Force power, some general saber skill, or guns 'n gadgets.

4)Oops, typo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheShaman
Staff:
This is still a problem for me since the only staff we see is used in a Juyo way... which is already for single. (Note: Maul was on the defense a lot. But that might be due to the 2v1)
What about making him un-disarmable? It would be pretty hard to disarm a staff user with 2 blades...
Yeah the reason why staff seemed defensive oriented is because of Maul's 2 on 1 position. Look at how he uses his staff when he's finally got Qui-Gon tired out and isolated.

Hm, staff can be un-disarmable, but perhaps one end can be destructible? I seem to recall that Force Mod III had a feature like that, unless I'm wrong. Perhaps attack swings not only affect the front of the player, but also the back? I.E. attack damage happens both front and back, since there are TWO blades. Slightly reduced DP damage from regular swings, but increased DP or FP cost to parries and ripostes? Still thinking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheShaman
Dual:
No idea.
Dooku got rid of Anakin's second saber quickly, and Anakin wasn't skilled in using dual sabers.

Also, note about general DP damage of styles. Making them unique would be better.
(exemple: Djem so 18, Juyo 17, Shii-cho 16, Makashi 15, Soresu 14, Dual 13 per saber, Staff 12 per blade. Yes I think Soresu should do more, it's mostly two handed, contrary to dual, and dual can do 26 if you hit with both.)
Dual should be easy to disarm because each saber only has one grip on it. Also, spin attacks do extra damage thanks to two sabers (I think this is already incorporated, not sure). Um, what else...I really want to play up the fluid offense-defense aspect but still give it some big weaknesses.

The damage values as they are are fine. Soresu's damage shouldn't do more, because the kinetic swing of dual blades will naturally do more damage, while Soresu's swings are very quick, not requiring much strength.


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Old 04-30-2007, 06:08 AM   #61
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I wont re-take everything step by step, this is doing too long posts...
In fact, your ideas are mostly good, they just need balancing (the MP given by Makashi etc...) the Soresu low cost in DP and other stuff like that, but this can always be done after, if we notice a style totally owns the others.

For balance issues, what you say is true, Juyo can't have the MP damage. Although, if you watch again the duel between Windu and Palpatine, you'll notice my MP idea was rather good. Palpy loses because of high mishap, if we translate it into OJP.
But that's tipically Vapaad, and in OJP we have Juyo, so making rolls easy-use and not MP giver can be understood too.

However, I still think the styles MUST be equal (You seem to think equal means "the same", it does NOT, equal means "the same value", which here means, each style has valuable boosts that the other styles don't have, none should be stronger, all should have the same price). Each level of Saber profeciency should allow you to choose 1 (any) of the 5 styles (for single of course, staff and dual = lvl 3 only).
And you must not care about what is equal or not right now, the style balance isn't finished yet! Styles are not equal right now cause it's based on Basejka, later, I hope it won't be anymore.

Also, when you say +x damage, it means an additional damage of x to what we have before, be careful with that. (You said Djem so attack fakes do 1 DP damage, and with hammer, they do +2 DP damage, this would mean 3 DP) If you want to say a new value instead, just say 2 DP damage, and not +2, it's much more clear.

Just so you know, this Juyo we have in OJP is more like Vapaad, watch the moves, they are based on Windu... if you didn't know that, you missed something.
And still, lightning reflect would be nearly impossible (or if done, very graphically ugly) in JKA, I guess.
You still don't get it with the mishap idea. It's not I don't want Juyo to have it, it's the idea itself, a shot causing a mishap, that is pretty stupid! (I wanted to keep that word away till now, but no choice it seems...)

OK enough of criticizing, it seems you won't get back on what you said.
Let's talk about staff and duals.

Yes I read that FM3 had it, but I never could make it happen.
That blade destruction could be hard to do, though, and that's rather a disadvantage, what good thing should it have, since it requires level 3?
Undisarmable, as I said.
I think the staff already strikes in front, on side, and behind sometimes.
With the super duper interpolation, I think the saber hits where you graphically see it, contrary to the Raven interpolation, so when you spin with staff, you hit all around you.
What do you mean with "Slightly reduced DP damage from regular swings, but increased DP or FP cost to parries and ripostes?" advantage or disadvantage? (please precise what you mean, give names such as 'for the enemy', 'for the staff user'...)

I really don't know for dual.

As for the DP damage, I don't agree, 2 handed > 1 handed. And Soresu is already very slow, it has loooooong transitions. And Dual can hit 2 times (most of the time), so consider it does 26 and not 13.
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Old 04-30-2007, 07:07 AM   #62
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No, it's not anything like Vaapad.
And this thread is about Special moves and not the styles' bonusses, guys.

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Old 04-30-2007, 10:31 AM   #63
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He started! well okay, and we'll discuss style bonus later anyway. First = bug fixes and hybrid balancement.
Then skills + style perks.
Right?
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Old 04-30-2007, 10:39 AM   #64
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I hope it'll be in that order. I could go for a single release just laden with some kind of fix for the hybrids!

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Old 04-30-2007, 07:45 PM   #65
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Max is correct. This needs to be another thread.

But, this IS the time for this sort of discussion. We gotta have a working concept before anyone can start on implimentation. TheShaman, how about you start a new thread with a summary of the current state of the style balancing?

Anyway, final point. Based on implimentation difficulty, I don't think we should have different catagories of perks for the individual saber styles. It would be much simplier to just have the standard 3 levels of skill and adjust our concepts to fit that. My suggestion is to have one skill for the lightsaber purchase (which comes free with the Shii-cho or staff/duals skill) and then have skills for each of the additional styles.


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Old 04-30-2007, 08:18 PM   #66
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Shaman, you keep misunderstanding so many things that I write. For instance, what I mean by when I say the styles aren't "equal." When level 3 styles cost more points than level 1, that is not equal (lecturing me on the definition of equal was completely uncalled for). And of course I want style balancing; to say otherwise is asinine. But yes this discussion needs to be somewhere else, I didn't intend for this to be so off-track, although I think that special moves should be part of saber upgrades.

Can we split off part of this thread?

Quote:
Originally Posted by razorace
Max is correct. This needs to be another thread.

But, this IS the time for this sort of discussion. We gotta have a working concept before anyone can start on implimentation. TheShaman, how about you start a new thread with a summary of the current state of the style balancing?

Anyway, final point. Based on implimentation difficulty, I don't think we should have different catagories of perks for the individual saber styles. It would be much simplier to just have the standard 3 levels of skill and adjust our concepts to fit that. My suggestion is to have one skill for the lightsaber purchase (which comes free with the Shii-cho or staff/duals skill) and then have skills for each of the additional styles.
Razor, I'm kind of confused because I thought that that was what I was proposing? Lightsaber proficiency skill gives you lightsaber, how many and what kinds of styles you can use (3 progressive levels). Then for each style you have 3 buyable skills each. If you want to think about it in the standard skill progression:

passive = level 1, defense = level 2, attack = level 3

Unless by standard you mean having each level increase the potency of a skill?


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Old 04-30-2007, 09:43 PM   #67
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Oh, I thought you meant that you could pick the passive, defense, attack in any order.


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Old 05-01-2007, 06:06 AM   #68
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I thought the same, that you could buy any of the 3 if you want, or all the 3 if you have enough points.
Ok I'm going to start a new thread now, don't post about this here anymore please.
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Old 05-01-2007, 03:54 PM   #69
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would that mean that dual/staff users can pick an alternate style rather then being stuck with the default one?
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Old 05-01-2007, 04:17 PM   #70
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You'd still be stuck with the original staff/dual styles when using them that way, but you'll probably be able to choice its secondary styles at will.


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Old 05-06-2007, 11:44 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by razorace
You'd still be stuck with the original staff/dual styles when using them that way, but you'll probably be able to choice its secondary styles at will.
thats what I was asking, thanks
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