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Thread: Connection between Exile and Nihilus [Possible TSL spoiler]
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Old 07-18-2007, 02:18 PM   #121
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Another thing pointing to the Exile and Nihilus theory is in the Star Wars Legacy comics. Darth Krayt using a holocrons seeks advice from 3 ancient Sith Lords, Nihilus among them. It is mentioned there that Nihilus had stored his consciousness in his armor after his death. With the fact we see Nihilus in Kotor 2 I am taking this to mean that Nihilus had stored his essence in a new body when being split off from the Exile. I could be interupting it wrong but that is what it looks like to me.
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Old 07-18-2007, 04:33 PM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Starfyre
Another thing pointing to the Exile and Nihilus theory is in the Star Wars Legacy comics. Darth Krayt using a holocrons seeks advice from 3 ancient Sith Lords, Nihilus among them. It is mentioned there that Nihilus had stored his consciousness in his armor after his death. With the fact we see Nihilus in Kotor 2 I am taking this to mean that Nihilus had stored his essence in a new body when being split off from the Exile. I could be interupting it wrong but that is what it looks like to me.
I think the usual interpretation is that Nihilus survived the destruction of the Malachor V at the end of the Mandalorian Wars by storing his consciousness in his armor. This does fit with the description of the Nihilus mask, which states that Nihilus died and was reborn on Malachor V.

That said, I've been wondering the same thing, and there is nothing to dispute what you're suggesting. I mean, if we assume the exile has the mask, Nihilus could return through having stored what was left of him there, if the exile becomes a new Nihilus wearing the mask. It's an interpretation, of course, but I don't think it's impossible.

I'm not sure the Legacy comic book really does suggest this, since it would be a rather noticeable spoiler for a game that isn't even announced yet. Avellone may have planned something like that - as I have mused here myself - but in truth anything could still happen in a KotOR3. Nothing's set in stone. So while it fits, I don't think we can take that as a revealing clue.


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Old 07-21-2007, 02:48 AM   #123
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i think the connection is true but i think visas has a larger part in this if nihillus doesnt detect the exile yet acts so violently towards here could she have a connection also maybe kriea was hiding her force precense until she thought the exile had a strong enough bond with her to lead nihilus to her and because nihillus was a dark part of the exile her couldnt sense the exiles force precense because he had the exiles force presence so for the exile to use the force he had to draw off of kreia but when she turned against the exile. the exile started to draw of of visas, aton etc. so thats why the exile didnt die because kreias connection had been severed

wow u think maybe obsidian and LA could have put this in the game all along and were just now dicovering it and jediphile u rock


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Old 07-25-2007, 09:49 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by Jediphile
Another thing that only just occurred to me based on the discussion on whether Nihilus or Revan would win a fight...

Nihilus sensed the masters on Katarr and was drawn to them, which fits with Kreia telling us that he is drawn to powerful forceusers. Now, Nihilus also senses the exile early in the plot, but it just occurred to me that there's a problem there... Because how can Nihilus sense the exile, when the exile has no force bond?!?

Indeed, we could argue that the reason you cannot choose your party when you attack Nihilus is because of force bonds. Visas can "slip in" as Nihilus' apprentice, while Mandalore clearly has no force powers. But what the exile? Shouldn't Nihilus be able to sense him and be drawn to him? I should think so, since he has grown in power, yet the exile becoming more powerful (by gaining levels of experience) is not a factor to Nihilus, only his alignment seems to be. why? Okay, so the answer would seem to be obvious in that the exile has no force bond of his own, and so Nihilus cannot sense him. But if that's the case, then how can Nihilus sense him through the force early in the game, when he sends out Visas to find the exile? The only reason I can think of is that by embracing an extreme philosophy - be it LS or DS - the exile is finally moving away from his status of apathy, which caused the problem in the first place.
I could be wrong, but if i'm not mistaken Nihilus didn't sense the exile, only an anomaly in the force. He then sends Visas to investigate it. Doesn't Visas tell the Exile that her master doesn't know what she (the exile) is? Visas also states that there are many things that she (Visas) sees that her master cannot. This leads me to believe that Visas could see (to an extent) what the exile and Nihilus really were, and that Nihilus could not truely sense the exile for what she really was. Visas sees the exile as a means to the end of her master. That would explain why Visas (a Sith) would turn against her master so quickly; not to become the new sith lord, but to free herself.

I think your theory is excellent. And, with your theory, i also believe that you have already explained why previous statement is correct. You said that either Kriea or Atris told the exile that she could not feel herself. I'm assuming you meant in the force. If this is so, then it explains the reason why Nihilus couldn't tell what the exile was. It could also explain why the exile couldn't sense Nihilus (despite how power Nihilus had become). Being that the Exile and Nihilus are one in the same, the exile could not feel Nihilus (and vice versa).

Just some food for thought.....

thaCool
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Old 08-03-2007, 08:10 AM   #125
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Great thread here Jediphile, have always felt the same about the Exile and Nihlius. Decided to play through Kotor II again and found this in looking something else up and felt compelled to join up and post a few comments after reading through it all.

1. A handful of people have thought that Nihlius might be the Exiles master, and while that might be possible I can recall a line describing the Mandalorian wars to, "...have effected the youngest of the order."

It's been said that the jedi force Revan and Malak recruited was made up of padawans and young knights. Who, I would think, were not as steeped in the "wait and see" approach as older knights and masters. Being the younger generation, they would be the ones who when seeing the harm caused by the mandalorians would want to act, and not sit back and do nothing. With that said, I frankly don't see the Exile's master being involved in the war, let alone Malachor V.

2. Earlier on page two it was assumed Kreia and Sion did not know the power of hunger like Nihlius. If you think to the lightside sequence on dantooine with the gathered masters when Kreia comes in and kills them before they strip the Exile of the force, she not only kills them but strips them of any trace of the force like they were going to do the Exile. I considered to this to be like what the Exile and Nihlius do, only controlled. As both the Exile and Nihlius do it uncontrolled, the Exile by making bonds and Nihlius just by his presence. What do you think?

Now that brings up a question too. If the jedi masters hadn't been interrupted by Kreia would they have even been able to do anything to the Exile as the force the Exile commands isn't really her own, as it is drawn from others?
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Old 08-04-2007, 04:34 PM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpiper22
Great thread here Jediphile, have always felt the same about the Exile and Nihlius. Decided to play through Kotor II again and found this in looking something else up and felt compelled to join up and post a few comments after reading through it all.

1. A handful of people have thought that Nihlius might be the Exiles master, and while that might be possible I can recall a line describing the Mandalorian wars to, "...have effected the youngest of the order."

It's been said that the jedi force Revan and Malak recruited was made up of padawans and young knights. Who, I would think, were not as steeped in the "wait and see" approach as older knights and masters. Being the younger generation, they would be the ones who when seeing the harm caused by the mandalorians would want to act, and not sit back and do nothing. With that said, I frankly don't see the Exile's master being involved in the war, let alone Malachor V.
Thanks for your kind words.

The idea that Nihilus or at least his physical body may have been the exile's master is just an idea that has been suggested, although I do tend toward that possibility myself.

While you are correct that the jedi "crusaders" recruited for the Mandalorian Wars by Revan and Malak were up by most of the younger knights and padawans, I don't see that as evidence that there were no older knights among their ranks. To me that statement is just indicate of a tendency among those who followed Revan and Malak rather than a hard fact with no exceptions.

Indeed, we know there are exceptions, since both Kreia and Arren Kae (whether that is the same person or not, which is a different discussion) fought in the Mandalorian Wars. We know Kreia fought in it, since Kavar says that he thought she died in it when she confronts the masters on Dantooine. And we know that Arren Kae fought in it, since the Handmaiden tells us that she died on Malachor V. Both Kreia and Arren Kae are mentioned in the game as having trained Revan, so we know that neither was a young jedi.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jpiper22
2. Earlier on page two it was assumed Kreia and Sion did not know the power of hunger like Nihlius. If you think to the lightside sequence on dantooine with the gathered masters when Kreia comes in and kills them before they strip the Exile of the force, she not only kills them but strips them of any trace of the force like they were going to do the Exile. I considered to this to be like what the Exile and Nihlius do, only controlled. As both the Exile and Nihlius do it uncontrolled, the Exile by making bonds and Nihlius just by his presence. What do you think?
I don't think Kreia has the same power, since that would beg the question of both why she was powerless against Nihilus' betrayal and why she needs the exile to be her weapon in her war against the will of the force.

It has been argued in the past, however, that the sith assassins in the game have learned their power from Nihilus. An annoying thing about that is that it is stated by Kreia in the same conversation where she also says that Nihilus' power is one that cannot be taught, but only experienced by witnessing its effects. I would speculate that for both statements to be true, one could learn dark powers similar to those of Nihilus, but not to the extent of what Nihilus himself can do. So that could suggest that while Nihilus can teach his assassins how to feed on the force, he cannot teach them how to wage planetwide destruction as he can.

Since the power of both Nihilus and the exile seem to originate from the exile's refusal of the will of the force and its consequences, it means being at Malachor V at the time would seem to be required to learn the same ability. That can be argued for Kreia, yet I doubt it since she cannot resist the will of the force like the exile can. That all ties into the exile's unique powers, and what he can do is the entire point of Kreia's interest in him. If Kreia could do the same, she would have no interest in the exile. Or indeed in Nihilus before him, I suspect.

However, Kreia could have powers similar to those of the sith assassins, only more advanced, and perhaps that is what she used. I think that would fit somewhat with her disgust of Nihilus being a slave to his unique powers and yet being oddly interesting in them - she learned only up to a point, because she knew that going any further would make her a slave to the dark side (and because it was impossible for her to learn his power, since it can only be gained by witnessing its effects).

Still, I must confess that I don't see how Kreia kills the masters as evidence of unique force powers. To me it need only mean that she can cut others off from the force as the masters tried to do to the exile and like Sion and Nihilus did to her. She cut the masters off and killed them at the same time, thereby preventing them from becoming one with the force and leaving them as holes. Though the argument has been made for claiming that Kreia has unique powers of her own and which are similar to those of Nihilus and the exile, I guess I just don't see it as all that complicated. I don't doubt that Kreia has unique force powers, but I don't see them as being anything like those of Nihilus or the exile, because if they were, the game's plot would fall apart.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jpiper22
Now that brings up a question too. If the jedi masters hadn't been interrupted by Kreia would they have even been able to do anything to the Exile as the force the Exile commands isn't really her own, as it is drawn from others?
I think it would. It's true that the exile is already "dead" to the force. However, that just means that he cut off his own, direct connection to the force. The point of the plot is that the exile can still access the force through the intense bonds he forms with others. In short, during the game he feels the force only by using his companions as conduits by which interact with the force. What the masters attempted would have made the exile unable to feel the force entirely and so make it impossible for him to feel the force and manipulate it by using other people's force connections as conduits.


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Last edited by Jediphile; 08-12-2007 at 09:10 AM.
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Old 08-18-2007, 05:20 PM   #127
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Nihilus in kotor3

I was wondering since there seems to be some connection between the Jedi Exile and Nihilus, would you like to see some of it explained in kotor3.

I was thinking on the level that the Jedi Exile still suffers from the echo and this will open the door to how Nihilus was created. There can be a short hint of how Nihilus was made into the character who feeds on the force to such a level that can kill planets.

The question i have is how was he taught this power and how did it become a hunger that consumed him, imprisoned him. Nihilus reminds me of a force weapon. If Kreia taught him this power why would she do it if she could see that he would just consume all with the force.

I was thinking about the betrayal scene with Kreia. How was Nihilus able to stop her powers.

I think Nihilus learned to be the monster he is by some other Dark Force user. Some one who wanted to stop Kreia and her Sith.
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Old 08-18-2007, 10:44 PM   #128
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I agree with you 100% on that issue.
It makes perfect sense and the way you word it is amazing.


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Old 08-19-2007, 07:09 PM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by logan23
I was wondering since there seems to be some connection between the Jedi Exile and Nihilus, would you like to see some of it explained in kotor3.

I was thinking on the level that the Jedi Exile still suffers from the echo and this will open the door to how Nihilus was created. There can be a short hint of how Nihilus was made into the character who feeds on the force to such a level that can kill planets.
Certainly. Indeed, the revelation of exile's connection to Nihilus is a major point in the plot I have speculated we might see in KotOR3. If there is a connection, then surely it is meant to be used for something plotwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by logan23
The question i have is how was he taught this power and how did it become a hunger that consumed him, imprisoned him. Nihilus reminds me of a force weapon. If Kreia taught him this power why would she do it if she could see that he would just consume all with the force.
Kreia did not teach it to Nihilus. That's a conclusion and not a fact in evidence, but for Kreia to teach such a power, she would have to know it herself, and if she knew it, then there would be no need to use exile to bring about Nihilus' downfall.

Besides, I've always felt that Kreia used Nihilus as a weapon in her war against the will of the force as she does the exile during the course of the game. Both are wounds in the force and hold the ability to harm the force. That is scarcely a coincidence, I think.

And of course, according to Kreia, the power that Nihilus holds cannot be taught, but only witnessed. Both exile and Nihilus hold this power to wound the force and resist its will, yet Kreia does not despite being far more experienced and learned in the ways of the force. That similarty is a major reason for my speculation of a powerful connection between Nihilus and exile, apart from what the masters point out, of course. Exile witnessed the destruction of Malachor through his force bonds, and he alone made the chose to cut his connection to the force rather than either die or else fall to the dark side as all other jedi did. The exile is unique in that aspect. Yet here Nihilus is, despite being obviously dark sided. That makes sense to me only if there is a conneciton and they are really the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by logan23
I was thinking about the betrayal scene with Kreia. How was Nihilus able to stop her powers.
He didn't exactly stop her powers. What he did - as I understand it -was to strip her of her connection to the force, just as the masters wanted to do to the exile. And Nihilus' power was such that Kreia had no defense against it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by logan23
I think Nihilus learned to be the monster he is by some other Dark Force user. Some one who wanted to stop Kreia and her Sith.
I doubt that, since it seems to me to speak against the fact that Nihilus studied under Kreia. It also contradicts the unique nature that the masters feel from both exile and Nihilus. And naturally, Kreia says that learning the power is not possible.


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Old 08-21-2007, 01:53 PM   #130
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I'm trying to think why would Kreia train Nihilus. Kreia seems to one who wishes to strike from the shadows unlike Nihilus.

Whats was Kreia's purpose with Nihilus? Did she want to study his unusal condition?

Would you like to hear about Nihilus's training from a force ghost of Kreia?

This could be uses as a subplot in kotor3 in how the Jedi Exile can finally heal the echo.
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Old 08-21-2007, 04:16 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Darth_vilas
Some people said that Nihilus(?) was a Master of the exile cause they form bonds more easy.
Did you ever considered that The exile was the Master and Nihilus was the Padawan.
WE know that the exile trained The disciple for leaving with Revan for the Mandalore wars. So maybe he trained a new Padawan in the wars. Who would approve of the war. They formed a Connection and tadadididilaladida DArth Nihilus is Born on MAL V
No, as far as I can remember, the Disciple only says that he was to be trained as a padawan, and that the Exile was the Master he wanted, and she was also the one who was about to select him as her padawan, but the Mandalorian Wars came in-between, and so she left, leaving the Disciple on Dantooine (It was Dantooine, wasn't it?), and since no other person wanted to take him, he grew too old, and left the Order.
I even think that when talking to him, and you have influence high enough with him to talk about the your's (the Exile) and his past, you can appologize to him for leaving for the Mandalorian Wars and not staying there and training him to become a Jedi.
Not completely sure though, but since I completed TSL for the second time, this time with a LS female, I think I'm having quite a good idea about what he says to her. (I hated his third-person referals)
Jediphile, I like your idea, it is indeed very plausible, fits very well into the dark veil hanging over Nihilus and the Exile.
The idea that the Exile's master was with in the Wars can be true, but, since it was mostly youngsters that joined Revan and Malak, maybe it was an old friend from the Academy? One that she also had connected deeply with, deeper than with others, maybe, possibly even a boyfriend (I know, the Jedi Code says no passion allowed, it leads to the dark side, but still, she can have one, after all, the Jedi Masters can't keep check on everything, right?).
But since we do not know anything, it could have been anybody, almost. Except her pet gizka, maybe.
Or was it a cannok?
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Old 08-21-2007, 10:17 PM   #132
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Jediphile: I also like your hypothesis. It's straightforward and internally consistent, Elegant, and makes simple something that seems a quagmire logically able to be handled/dealt with. Also, it suggests directions for the secondary character interaction in K3 as well.

So on many levels I find it satisfying.
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Old 08-28-2007, 11:59 AM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by logan23
I'm trying to think why would Kreia train Nihilus. Kreia seems to one who wishes to strike from the shadows unlike Nihilus.

Whats was Kreia's purpose with Nihilus? Did she want to study his unusal condition?
I would assume she used him for just the same reason that she did the exile - he was a wound in the force that she could use in her war against the will of the force. When Nihilus betrayed her, she simply went to the exile to continue her quest, since the use of Nihilus was now denied to her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by logan23
Would you like to hear about Nihilus's training from a force ghost of Kreia?

This could be uses as a subplot in kotor3 in how the Jedi Exile can finally heal the echo.
Sure, I could see that happen in KotOR3. Given how wonderful a character Kreia is, it would even be cool - given how much people either love or loathe her, you know that she has character

EDIT: Thanks to Jvstice for your kind words.


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Old 08-29-2007, 08:09 AM   #134
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Very nicely written Jediphile. I honestly am surprised there is even a case against this theory. Although TSL was left in an unfinished state, I thought Nihilus's connection to the Exile was self evident, but you have filled in any missing pieces quite well.

If only there would be a KotOR3 to answer our reamining questions...
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Old 09-01-2007, 10:42 PM   #135
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You all seem to be forgetting an essential part of KotOR 2 continuity: Exile's canonical gender. (Someone may have already brought this up, but I want to make my first ever post on this thread anyway.) I know many chaps who play KotOR care a kath hounds whisker about canon, so I'll give them this, in game continuity. (Nota Bene: the New Essential Guide to Droids entries on Hk Assassin droids and T3 utility Droids confirm Exile as a "heroine" and Revan as a "hero".) But back to in game continuity. If you select male Exile and you get Visas to talk about who sent her she specifically refers to Nihilius as "he" and "my master". Next, when you ask Kreia about the Sith Lords stalking you she refers to Nihilius as "he", Sion as "he" and herself inderectly as "she". For those who don't think that is a problem with Jediphilie's theory, may I point out that if you select Exile's gender as female (which is canon, as I previously stated) then none of these dialogues change in regard to the Lord of Hunger's gender. In Star Wars amazingly unrealistic things like fixing the future and nigh unkillable bounty hunters aren't unheard of but there is no practical way I can see for some one to be physically female and have one's essence be male.
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Old 09-02-2007, 12:16 AM   #136
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Well yeah, but might I remind you that the "Fan's Choice" canon gender wan't official until after the release. Not that I support this theory myself, I'm just stating a point. I don't believe Nihilus has any afiliations with the Exile. I think that Nihilus was a force sensitive who became diseased and the only way for him to remain in physical form was to feed off other force sensitives. Maybe under that mask and robes he was just a rotting corpse being temporarily held together by the force power he fed on.


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Old 09-02-2007, 12:21 AM   #137
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On the Legacy comics is revealed that Nihilus survived by binding his spirit to his armor, so he would have had no corpse to leave behind. I wonder what Visas saw when he took his mask.


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Old 09-02-2007, 11:36 PM   #138
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Thanks, I would have known that being one who is reading them but I've missed a couple issues.


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Old 09-05-2007, 12:02 PM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Bryddia
You all seem to be forgetting an essential part of KotOR 2 continuity: Exile's canonical gender.
No, we didn't...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile in the very first post of this topic
This evil self "survived" by claiming the dead or near-dead body of a fallen jedi and then became Darth Nihilus (a friend or old master of the Exile would make the most sense, since the connection would be stronger).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Bryddia
(Someone may have already brought this up, but I want to make my first ever post on this thread anyway.)
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Old 09-05-2007, 01:30 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by JoeDoe 2.0
On the Legacy comics is revealed that Nihilus survived by binding his spirit to his armor, so he would have had no corpse to leave behind. I wonder what Visas saw when he took his mask.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Image:KOTOR2Nihilus.jpg

I see a face under the mask.
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Old 09-07-2007, 12:11 AM   #141
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Angry My Final Words on This

So, may I reiterate? Even If you don't care about canon this theory dosn't work becuase Nihilus's gender cannot change. As for Exile's Force essence entering a body with oposing gender, correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't Visas see Nihilus's Force connection instead of his physical body? And since she once asks Brianna what the male Exile looks like I would assume that she can't see physical bodies. Also are any of you using cut content for referance? Forgive me if I think that dosn't really work, becuase the Sith Lords is for better or worse finished, thus the cut content is marked as infinity, which means non-canon. In any case, I seriously doubt that this theory is correct. But you chaps have already made up your minds, haven't you? No point in trying to make someone think something else when they have already decided what they beleive. I only stated my two cense. "I'm going now, I wish you all a very fond farewell."

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Old 09-07-2007, 12:28 AM   #142
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Think of Nihilus' cloak and mask as his physical appearance of deception. Sure, you can see the MOLDINGS of what would be a face, but when you took it off, would you see a face, or see nothing but force aura? My guess would be the latter. I think however, the only person(s) who could confirm this would be George Lucas, or more likely one of the creators/developers of the game and/or the character.


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Old 09-07-2007, 01:32 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by Ben Bryddia
So, may I reiterate? Even If you don't care about canon this theory dosn't work becuase Nihilus's gender cannot change.
Nor has it, and this has been discussed previously in the thread, albeit in greater detail than in the first post.

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Originally Posted by Ben Bryddia
As for Exile's Force essence entering a body with oposing gender, correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't Visas see Nihilus's Force connection instead of his physical body?
That's a metaphysical question. Personally I see no problem with it, however. After all, ghosts are well established in Star Wars, and even if it's an opposing gender, we're still talking only about a minor part of the exile's lifeforce using another body as a host.

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And since she once asks Brianna what the male Exile looks like I would assume that she can't see physical bodies.
Sure she can. She can't see faces, though, or at least not in any detail. Look through the eyes of Visas or Kreia or the exile if you learned Force Sight from Visas, and you'll know exactly what level of detail she can see.

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Originally Posted by Ben Bryddia
Also are any of you using cut content for referance?
Not really. Oddly enough, very few details about the connection between exile and Nihilus are cut from the game. The only reference I'm aware of having ever made in that context is Vash's comment about responsibility. That said, considering cut content seems perfectly valid to me in this regard, since most of what we refer to by that term is material that could and would have been in the game if the deadline had not forced it out. In short, Obsidian intended it to be in the game, and therefore it is relevant when speculating about what Avellone's intentions and plots were, unlike material that was considered early in the creative process and then discarded, such as Nihilus' mask being made of Revan's skull or Visas being evil and only available for evil characters.

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Forgive me if I think that dosn't really work, becuase the Sith Lords is for better or worse finished, thus the cut content is marked as infinity, which means non-canon.
That it was cut does not mean it did not happen. GOTO being killed by HK-47 proves this, since it was cut from the game, yet is canonized by subsequently material published by LA. By your logic it should not be.

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In any case, I seriously doubt that this theory is correct.
Which is fine.

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Originally Posted by Ben Bryddia
But you chaps have already made up your minds, haven't you? No point in trying to make someone think something else when they have already decided what they beleive.
The idea that Nihilus might be exile in some form has consistently been described as a theory, which means that it is "a proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural". This means that I would politely disagree with you as to whose mind is already made up...

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I only stated my two cense. "I'm going now, I wish you all a very fond farewell."
Likewise.


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Old 09-25-2007, 02:05 PM   #144
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Emperor Devon: Numerous fan theories about Darth Nihilus' origins have risen up, ranging from him being Zayne Carrick to Revan and to the Exile's missing Force connection. Did you ever have a specific origin in mind for him, or was he supposed to remain hidden, mysterious, and valuable in the fact that he remained in the dark (pardon the unfunny pun) like Dracula?

Chris Avellone: I cannot speak for the story arc in the Knights of the Old Republic comic (obviously, Zayne Carrick didnít exist at the time of the K2 storyline, but thatís not to say there isnít a connection). Nihilusí exact identity is never specified in K2 - I had a specific origin in mind, but not a name, if that makes sense, and what I say hear is not canon: He was created when Malachor V was torn apart, and he was intended as the Exileís other half, one that took a more self-destructive path rather than denying the Force during that battle that ended the Mandalorian Wars.

As much as Nihilus embraced the Dark Sideís Force talent of consuming force sensitives (and other life, such as the mass Mandalorian slaughter), the Exile took the higher ground and cut himself off from the pull of such power. As powerful as Nihilusí ability is in the short term, the drawback is that it robs the user of almost identity but hunger, which is why is never employed by the Sith Lords of old... who had no wish to sublimate their identities for any reason.
Sorry Jediphile. Good theory, what Chris intended, but it is not canon.


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Old 09-25-2007, 06:39 PM   #145
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Actually, what I hear him saying (between the lines, I mean) is that he cannot canonize it, because that that right falls to LA and not to him. So it may not be canon now, but it might be one day. I think the verdict is still out on that one, in case a KotOR3 is ever made.

And that said, I'm astounded that Avellone actually says that Nihilus was intended as exile's other half - it's not a subtle statement but quite a revelation, if you ask me. That Avellone even hints at his intentions is a very surprising and interesting IMHO.

But then again, it is in the game, if you consider how the masters assume the exile is responsible for the destruction that Nihilus has wrought.


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Old 10-24-2007, 10:19 AM   #146
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AGAINST

"Soon afterwards, he felt a great disturbance in the Force. The last remaining Jedi was made known to him and his servant, Visas, as the Jedi reestablished a lost connection to the Force." [he didnt know >.>]

"Nihilus, however, was still Human enough to have feelings, as his bond with Visas persisted until their confrontation on the Ravager. She was his only apprentice, and her betrayal was met with much anger."
[hmm...still human huh...not so much liek a*coughs* severed arm huh]

"Nihilus could also use the Force to lift starships, as he did on Malachor V with the Ravager, he tore it from the mass shadows that surrounded the planet and kept it together even though it had suffered extensive structural damage"
[OMG! where did he get a ship THAT fast! and THAT big!?]

FOR

"Almost nothing is known of the true beginnings of Darth Nihilus, other than the fact that he was a survivor of the Mandalorian Wars"

"Following this, his ship was assaulted by Mandalorian warriors led by Mandalore, who accompanied the Exile and Visas into a confrontation with the Sith Lord on board the bridge of the Ravager. The Exile, whose tie to the Force had again been severed—was basically of the same nature as himself—so when Nihilus tried to feed on the Jedi, he exhausted himself and was made vulnerable. After a short but brutal fight, the trio managed to defeat Darth Nihilus and his mask was removed by Visas, as she wanted to see the face of the one who had wounded her.[b] [ something missing here? not even what visas saw? a picture? NO! u dont see it!...they saved it for K3??]

After that, his body dissolved in an aura of dark side energies, [what? meaybe he doent even HAVE abody of his own...] his ship was destroyed, and the Sith fleet decimated by the Republic."

"Unlike most Sith Lords, however, he cared very little for the Sith as an organization—once he had consumed the last of the Jedi, it is likely that he would have turned on the Sith." [hmmm...that would be because he is no sith! hah!]

"He saw death as the sole purpose of life, and power as the means to achieve it. The cause of such nihilism remains unknown"
[hmm...cuz he is actually the part of the exile that had such thoughts!]

"In Star Wars: Legacy, Darth Krayt asks Nihilus's holocron how he was able to retain his consciousness in his armor. Speculation from this suggests that Krayt could be referring to a possible death at Malachor V at the end of the Mandalorian Wars when the Mass Shadow Generator was initiated, if not another death that has yet to be seen or referred to before the Battle of Telos IV" [THAT is very interesting, speculation, nontheless]

"In an interview conducted by a fan Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic website, Chris Avellone is asked what his intentions for Darth Nihilus were. Though he did state that his origin story is non-canon, Avellone planned to have Nihilus be the Jedi Exile's "other half" when Malachor V was torn apart."

so alas, it inst true, because it WAS intended (so u got something allright up there ) but non-canan...itd been so cool if itd been canan...*sighs*


EDIT: someone beat me to it, damn! anyway, its a cool collection of quotes alltogether...any1 has a link to the interview?

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Old 10-24-2007, 11:42 AM   #147
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so alas, it inst true, because it WAS intended (so u got something allright up there ) but non-canan...itd been so cool if itd been canan...*sighs*
Actually, what Avellone said was this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Avellone
Nihilusí exact identity is never specified in K2 - I had a specific origin in mind, but not a name, if that makes sense, and what I say hear is not canon: He was created when Malachor V was torn apart, and he was intended as the Exileís other half, one that took a more self-destructive path rather than denying the Force during that battle that ended the Mandalorian Wars.
The way I read it is that it is not canon because it was never stated in the game, not because the idea was nixed by LA or dropped for some other reason. To me it is the same as how Vader was not canonically Luke's father until it was confirmed in ROTJ. Or how Leia was definitely not Luke's sister until ROTJ made her so. So no, it's not canon... yet. But if KotOR3 is ever written, then it certainly could be, especially if Avellone is involved.


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Old 10-24-2007, 03:10 PM   #148
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yopu know what? i hope its not canon *yet*. itd be very nice. very cool of u to figure it all out really. there could be a whole story on nihilus in K3, maybe with flashbacks to K2 for newbies, because there are a lot of question marks around this hooded and masked figure...

by the way, ive had K2 minimized for two hours spending on these forums now O.o the more i read on this topic, the more i believe
it...


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Old 11-05-2007, 06:15 AM   #149
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Jediphile

I read your theory with much interest. I would speak endlessly about a related theory to my husband- who is no Starwars fan and assumed I was going crazy as a result but still.

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SilentScope001:
there is no practical way I can see for some one to be physically female and have one's essence be male.
On the contrary, my theory on this is that is exactly how such a thing can be possible. If you look towards eastern religion and Cambellian myth- which was an important guiding factor in George Lucas' original creative "force" if you will- the spirit is a duality with male and female essenses- whether it is the arthanariswaras of Indian mythology or Yin and Yang.

I don't want to go all eastern philosophy on you- but the point needs to be made given the origins of the Star Wars universe. If a part of a Light side, female cleaved, then by default, she creates a vestigial essense which is her duality in nature and in gender, and this duality makes Jediphile's theory even more compelling.
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Old 11-23-2007, 01:18 PM   #150
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Great theory, although I'm not sure it's completely true, still a great theory and if it was true then that would be awesome. I did however have a couple questions, and if it's been asked already I apologize, I spent an hour reading through this but on the last page I kinda skimmed through so sorry if I missed this.

1.Wasnt Bao-dur on Malachor V with the exile? If so, why didnt he meet any of the 3 options.

2. Bao-dur couldnt have possibly created the MSG or the Repuiblic would have won a long time ago by creating dozens of them for use against the Mandolorians, there must have been some ancient artifact on the planet, perhaps an Infinite Empire or True Sith weapon? Maybe I'm missing something :P

3. Ok this question I'm probably completely going the wrong way, I just remembered the scene and cant remember the dialogue. -- On the temple on Korriban you encounter a memory where you have to clear mines for rpublic troops then you see them fight mandos. Was this memory from Malachor or another planet?

The last question I was probably wrong but the other two I was really curious about. If anyone would like to answer them please go on
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Old 11-23-2007, 01:44 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by BanthaFodder01
1.Wasnt Bao-dur on Malachor V with the exile? If so, why didnt he meet any of the 3 options.
He was not a jedi or sith. He was force-sensitive, of course, but that is not enough, it would seem. Given how he talks of celebreting the death of the Mandalorians they killed, the potential of lure by the dark side is clearly there, yet he still decided to stand up to Czerka on Telos. I suppose we could say that he was affected and took the darker road, but on a far lesser scale since he did not feel the force at the time. His more or less self-imposed exile and subsequent quest to fight Czerka was his redemption. Personally, I feel this is why he mirrors the exile and is far closer to him/her during the course of the game. YMMV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BanthaFodder01
2. Bao-dur couldnt have possibly created the MSG or the Repuiblic would have won a long time ago by creating dozens of them for use against the Mandolorians, there must have been some ancient artifact on the planet, perhaps an Infinite Empire or True Sith weapon? Maybe I'm missing something :P
According to the game and all sources I've seen, the MSG was indeed created by Bao-Dur. That doesn't need to mean that he created all the technology, however, just that he thought of a way to combine existing technology in a way that had massive destructive effect. But we know very little about the MSG, actually. In that sense, it's a "McGuffin" in the true sense of the word...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BanthaFodder01
3. Ok this question I'm probably completely going the wrong way, I just remembered the scene and cant remember the dialogue. -- On the temple on Korriban you encounter a memory where you have to clear mines for rpublic troops then you see them fight mandos. Was this memory from Malachor or another planet?
It would seem highly unlikely to me for it to be Korriban, since the Mandalorians are forbidden to set foot on the planet. IIRC, it was actually on Dxun, judging from what I can see in the dialog.tlk about the encounter. Not certain about that, though.


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Old 11-23-2007, 02:01 PM   #152
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Ahh thanks for clearing that up for me. I've played KOTOR II about 4 times and was never able to get them to tell my about the purge of anyone who didnt join Revan so im cloudy on that subject. But just to be clear, your saying that Bao-dur at the time at the battle of Malachor was just a regular soldier who joined Revan at the end thus not being killed, but later went off to sabotage Czerka?
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Old 11-23-2007, 06:13 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by BanthaFodder01
Ahh thanks for clearing that up for me. I've played KOTOR II about 4 times and was never able to get them to tell my about the purge of anyone who didnt join Revan so im cloudy on that subject. But just to be clear, your saying that Bao-dur at the time at the battle of Malachor was just a regular soldier who joined Revan at the end thus not being killed, but later went off to sabotage Czerka?
Pretty much, though I would scarcely call Bao-Dur a regular soldier. He was an engineer, and his skills were certainly used as such, even though he seems to have joined as a regular soldier.

He was certainly affected by the choice Revan put to the jedi and describes in details to the exile how he felt he lost control of himself with battle fury, which is as close to being seduced by the dark side as non-jedi seem able to become. As Carth would point out, Revan and Malak had the excuse of being lured by the dark side, but not the soldiers who followed them after their fall. Carth refers to Saul Karath, of course, but naturally it applies to Bao-Dur as well, and even underscores Carth's point, since Bao-Dur was able to free himself from those dark emotions without someone to "return him to the light".

Consider the following, which can Bao-Dur can say during the game...

Bao-Dur: ".Why did you decide to fight?The war went poorly before Revan and the Jedi lent aid to the Republic. Many of us believed the Jedi to be cowards who were afraid to face the Mandalorian threat.I felt the same way. I remembered when word of the Mandalorian attacks arrived on Iridonia.My people had colonies across the Outer Rim. Many of them were among the first systems to fall.Revenge, and to crush the Mandalorians - to send them back to wherever it was they came from.{"Mercy" is said ruefully}I did not join because I wanted to protect, though. I hated them. I wanted to destroy them - to give them the mercy they gave the people they conquered.I remember the thrill I felt when we fought them in battle. Victories were rare, but we celebrated every Mandalorian's death.Do you know how it felt?It's always on my mind, now. That loss of control blinded me, turned me into a weapon.{Apologetic}I... just needed to get that off my chest.I couldn't do that. It was almost as though the battle took control of me, drove me forward.{Off of Telos}General. Need something?I moved around for a couple years. Working as a starship mechanic got me from place to place. I wasn't ready to settle down after the war.{Very serious}As long as I kept moving, I didn't have to think about what happened. Know what I mean?Mostly, I was angry. Angry about what I had done, about why I had done it.{Accusing}Maybe if I had the Force to lean on, I could have worked it out. But then the Force didn't seem to be of much help to others.I was, no doubt. It's hard to face up to yourself sometimes, and for a few years, I couldn't.{Sincere}I'm sure you do.I decided I'd do something constructive. I wanted to make up for the things I'd done in the war.I wanted to design planetary shields, but there weren't many systems with the credits to spare - there was more that needed to be rebuilt than protected.I found out that Telos was going to be the flagship project for the Republic, and it sounded like something good. I saw Telos before the Sith razed it. It deserved a better fate.{Anger}But Czerka ruined everything. I thought I could force Czerka out on my own, but I guess I can't fix everything myself."


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Old 11-23-2007, 11:05 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by Jediphile
Actually, what Avellone said was this:

"Nihilusí exact identity is never specified in K2 - I had a specific origin in mind, but not a name, if that makes sense, and what I say hear is not canon: He was created when Malachor V was torn apart, and he was intended as the Exileís other half, one that took a more self-destructive path rather than denying the Force during that battle that ended the Mandalorian Wars."


The way I read it is that it is not canon because it was never stated in the game, not because the idea was nixed by LA or dropped for some other reason. To me it is the same as how Vader was not canonically Luke's father until it was confirmed in ROTJ. Or how Leia was definitely not Luke's sister until ROTJ made her so. So no, it's not canon... yet. But if KotOR3 is ever written, then it certainly could be, especially if Avellone is involved.
Okay well that could mean a couple of things: one is yours where he's a part of the Exile, the other could be a metaphorical term meaning, another Jedi who survived but did not cut himself off and was overflowed with all of the screaming echoes in the force, and in the process, was forced to fuse his life force to his armor and lost his physical body. So he was technically dead, but also a force ghost who refused to move on.


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Old 11-23-2007, 11:42 PM   #155
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Actually, Vader being Luke's father became canon in Empire Strikes Back.
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Old 11-24-2007, 12:15 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by JediPhile
It would seem highly unlikely to me for it to be Korriban
I think that BanthaFodder01 meant that you have a VISION of the Republic troopers in Ludo Kreshh's tomb ON Korriban.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BanthaFodder01
But just to be clear, your saying that Bao-dur at the time at the battle of Malachor was just a regular soldier who joined Revan at the end thus not being killed, but later went off to sabotage Czerka?
I agree with what JediPhile said, but one question arises in my head, If Bao-Dur was a force-sensitive and serving on Revan's side, why wasn't he trained to become a Dark Jedi that Atton talks about when you learn more about him on Nar Shaddar? Thats why Atton left the 'Sith' because he didn't want to become a Dark Jedi. So, how did Bao-Dur seemingly go unnoticed? Anyone able shed any light on this question?

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Old 11-24-2007, 05:11 AM   #157
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Okay well that could mean a couple of things: one is yours where he's a part of the Exile, the other could be a metaphorical term meaning, another Jedi who survived but did not cut himself off and was overflowed with all of the screaming echoes in the force, and in the process, was forced to fuse his life force to his armor and lost his physical body. So he was technically dead, but also a force ghost who refused to move on.
I'd agree, but then Kreia makes it very clear that the exile alone was the only one to reach a third option, and the jedi masters tell us that the exile is responsible for the powers that the Sith wielded against them on Katarr, which refers to Nihilus' abilities, since he devastated that world. So I'd speculate it's more of a combination.

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Actually, Vader being Luke's father became canon in Empire Strikes Back.
It was revealed, but it was also uncertain. The speculation about whether Vader was really Luke's father or not could easily match most speculation about K3 or a KotOR MMO on these boards today during the years that passed between ESB and ROTJ. People just didn't know. It wasn't until Yoda confirmed it in ROTJ that it became fact. Until then it was just speculation. Take a look at the comic book stories written in that time - they were falling over themselves to avoid the issue, since only Lucas was allowed to give the answer.

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I think that BanthaFodder01 meant that you have a VISION of the Republic troopers in Ludo Kreshh's tomb ON Korriban.
I know that, but the question is what the vision refers back to. Where did that battle take place? And IIRC, it was on Dxun.

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Originally Posted by Rev7
I agree with what JediPhile said, but one question arises in my head, If Bao-Dur was a force-sensitive and serving on Revan's side, why wasn't he trained to become a Dark Jedi that Atton talks about when you learn more about him on Nar Shaddar? Thats why Atton left the 'Sith' because he didn't want to become a Dark Jedi. So, how did Bao-Dur seemingly go unnoticed? Anyone able shed any light on this question?
Well, they didn't actually notice Atton either. Indeed, it was only the jedi he killed that did, and that's how Atton is able to escape before he was trained to become a dark jedi. Beyond that, I'd assume that being trained in jedi-killing techniques is itself a study into the force as such in that to fight the jedi better, Atton had to understand how jedi think, much as a profiler attempts to understand the mindset of a murderer. But since we're talking about jedi, that also exposes Atton more to force techniques. He was trained in ways to block mind affecting force powers, for example, and if you listen to Atton, he seems to have great insights into how jedi think and act. He had to in order to be a better assassin of jedi.

Bao-Dur, by comparison, was a lot more of "simple" soldier, and he wasn't even that to the fullest extent, since we know that they made great use of his skills as an engineer. So he was far less exposed to the force than Atton was, and yet we still know that he was affected too, from what he tells us during the game.


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Old 11-24-2007, 03:24 PM   #158
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I'd agree, but then Kreia makes it very clear that the exile alone was the only one to reach a third option, and the jedi masters tell us that the exile is responsible for the powers that the Sith wielded against them on Katarr, which refers to Nihilus' abilities, since he devastated that world. So I'd speculate it's more of a combination.
Well it's Kreia saying this. Before I'd trust Kreia as a definite source, I'd first see what scheme she has that this fits into, and make up my mind afterwards.
Also, limting this to the exile kills all spin-offs on the subject.


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Old 11-24-2007, 03:35 PM   #159
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Well it's Kreia saying this. Before I'd trust Kreia as a definite source, I'd first see what scheme she has that this fits into, and make up my mind afterwards.
Also, limting this to the exile kills all spin-offs on the subject.
Kreia says it to the comatose LS exile after she has killed the jedi masters. Little reason to lie in that case, as she'll be leaving the exile in any event. Besides, Kreia seems to have this annoying ability to never lie. She bends the truth, sure, she says things that seem to mean one thing, but can be later taken to mean something else. But I don't recall her speaking a clear, confirmable lie during the game.

Beyond that, both the jedi masters and HK-47 pretty much support her on that point. It would seem very odd for them all to lie.

And spin-offs? No way. The exile is and should remain unique. Sure, Kreia says others will (in the future) stop listening to the force as the exile did, but that only goes some way toward making the exile's choice. You add more people to that list, and the exile stops being a unique person and instead just becomes "yet another force-denier" among many. It's trivial and takes away from the character and from the plot of TSL. I'd hate that.


"It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built" - Kreia

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Old 11-24-2007, 05:22 PM   #160
Gargoyle King
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Originally Posted by Jediphile
And spin-offs? No way. The exile is and should remain unique. Sure, Kreia says others will (in the future) stop listening to the force as the exile did, but that only goes some way toward making the exile's choice. You add more people to that list, and the exile stops being a unique person and instead just becomes "yet another force-denier" among many. It's trivial and takes away from the character and from the plot of TSL. I'd hate that.
I second that, i love the uniqueness of the Exile and shouldn't be trampled by future imitations.
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