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Old 03-16-2008, 05:27 PM   #201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JCarter426
But when the Exile kills Nihilus, he/she no longer needs the bond with Kreia or anyone else, which is how the Exile manages to face Malachor alone. Of course, it's likely that the Exile didn't know this, otherwise they wouldn't need to go to Malachor in the first place.
Yes, I concur, specially with the last sentence. Had the Exile knew about his renewed Force connection, he wouldn't go there to stop Kreia from taking her life and his/her along. Instead, the objective would be stopping the Sith or taking control of them as their lord.


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Old 03-31-2008, 10:10 AM   #202
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Okey, now many of you are talking about Kreia and her ambition too kill the force. In my mind it sounds strange, how would she do that, people say that she use the Exile and Nihilus too accomplish this.

Kreia may have much wisdom, and her ambition is really grand. But IMO she`s way over her head, if there is one thing the star wars universe has taught us, it is that the force is beyond what is possible too understand. How did she think she could do this?

Kreia is an amazing character, but i really think she sacrifice so much, and in the end its for nothing..


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Old 03-31-2008, 05:27 PM   #203
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Betrayal. I think that she had enough of the betrayal. Nihilius & Sion betrayed her, the Jedi Order betrayed her, and she probably thought that the force betrayed her. Better yet, she wanted to destroy (kill) the force to kill all those who had betrayed her?

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Old 03-31-2008, 05:47 PM   #204
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Expository text during loading screens on Malachor state that if the echoes of Malachor aren't stopped, then they will eventually deafen everyone to the force.
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Old 04-22-2008, 04:44 PM   #205
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...which would kill 'bout 90% of them.

But I was under the impression that Kreia tried to destroy the Force because she hated how it manipulated others, resulting in so much death and darkness. Hypocrite.

On topic: I love this theory. Makes complete sense and has plenty of valid evidence.
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Old 04-22-2008, 05:37 PM   #206
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Connection between Exile and Nihilus?
Besides being taught by Kreia, I don't think there is any other connection. One absorbs the force, and the other is a hollow shell. Nothing more.



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Old 04-22-2008, 06:11 PM   #207
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Yeah, I always thought the idea of Nihilus being the evil half of the Exile was pretty dumb as well, regardless of what the writers' original intent was. It also makes even less sense if the Exile is dark-sided.


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Old 04-22-2008, 06:30 PM   #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Source
Connection between Exile and Nihilus?
Besides being taught by Kreia, I don't think there is any other connection. One absorbs the force, and the other is a hollow shell. Nothing more.
They are both wounds in the Force, and they both drain life from other Force Sensitives. Oh, and they both taught Visas and had a Force bond with her (but that's not really relevant ).


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Old 04-22-2008, 07:54 PM   #209
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I actually think that Nihilus is an aspect of Kreia, rather than the Exile. More parallels between Kreia and Nihilus than Exile and Nihilus.


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Old 04-22-2008, 07:56 PM   #210
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How so? The only thing I can think of is that Nihilus cut her off from the Force.


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Old 04-22-2008, 08:27 PM   #211
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Nihilus Cut Kreia off from the force?? I don't mean to sound sarcastic, but when did that happen in the game? Do you mean when Nihilus and Sion turned on her and threw her out of the triumverate, that was actually an exiling, not the cutting off of her powers.


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Old 04-22-2008, 08:28 PM   #212
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That's when it happened.


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Old 04-22-2008, 08:30 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by JCarter426
That's when it happened.
She did have her powers available when she met the exile on Peragus though, or unless you're meaning that the Exile reactivated Kreia's powers, as Kreia reactivated the exile's through their "bond"?


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Old 04-22-2008, 08:36 PM   #214
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She eventually gained them back. It wasn't a permanent loss, far less severe than the Exile's. Kreia says this more than once.

"There are techniques within the Force against which there is no defense. I was cast down. Stripped of my power."

"Let me show you - you, who have forever seen the galaxy through the Force. See it through the eyes of the exile, as I have"

And so on.


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Old 04-22-2008, 08:46 PM   #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JCarter426
She eventually gained them back. It wasn't a permanent loss, far less severe than the Exile's. Kreia says this more than once.

"There are techniques within the Force against which there is no defense. I was cast down. Stripped of my power."

"Let me show you - you, who have forever seen the galaxy through the Force. See it through the eyes of the exile, as I have"

And so on.
Oh right, I remember that sequence in the game. I don't think I read too much into the dialogue or meaning in that sequence, which is why I figured she meant figuratively (i.e. stripped of her rank in the triumverate, and cast out of Malachor V).


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Old 04-22-2008, 10:03 PM   #216
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This might have already been said - I apologize for not reading all of the posts before writing this - but I just read this on Wookieepedia and thought it was worth sharing:

In an interview conducted by a fan Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic website, Chris Avellone is asked what his intentions for Darth Nihilus were. Though he did state that his origin story is non-canon, Avellone planned to have Nihilus be the Jedi Exile's "other half" when Malachor V was torn apart.
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Old 04-22-2008, 10:26 PM   #217
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#1: As has been stated about 10 times on this thread, Kreia is not the equivelant of the exile, as the exile is unique. Whatever parallels you can find between them, Kreia is not the one who can deny the will of the Force-this 'power' of the exile is why Kreia uses her in her plots.

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Originally Posted by TKA-001
Yeah, I always thought the idea of Nihilus being the evil half of the Exile was pretty dumb as well, regardless of what the writers' original intent was. It also makes even less sense if the Exile is dark-sided.
Ya know, it would make a lot more sense to post WHY, instead of just saying that this whole theory is is crud. That is a bad argument in comparison to Jediphile's evidence... Nihilus coming out of nowhere makes no sense at all if the exile is unique, the descriptions of their powers sound the same, and just because the exile rejected her Force sensitivity and inner-darkness at Malachor V doesn't mean she is pure. A DS Exile could easily exist, even with this theory. If I remember correctly, the theory goes that the Jedi create light, but Sith use the darkness that will always exist. The Exile could have used the darkness even after the initial rejection. Also, consider the writers working on this game. Look at their other works, and this theory seems all the more possible IMHO.
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Old 04-22-2008, 10:47 PM   #218
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That is a bad argument in comparison to Jediphile's evidence...
First of all, almost all of Jediphile's "evidence" is simply random statements from the game with his own [fanon] assumptions/interpretations used to tie them together.

Quote:
the descriptions of their powers sound the same
Nihilus directly and almost instantly drains and kills his victims. Exile drains people over time by bending them to his will.

Quote:
and just because the exile rejected her Force sensitivity and inner-darkness at Malachor V doesn't mean she is pure. A DS Exile could easily exist, even with this theory. If I remember correctly, the theory goes that the Jedi create light, but Sith use the darkness that will always exist. The Exile could have used the darkness even after the initial rejection. Also, consider the writers working on this game. Look at their other works, and this theory seems all the more possible IMHO.
Why is it so much more logical to assume this whole thing about the Exile rejecting his evil self rather than Nihilus is simply someone else who became a wound in the force? How can this theory possibly make more sense?


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Old 04-22-2008, 11:08 PM   #219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TKA-001
Why is it so much more logical to assume this whole thing about the Exile rejecting his evil self rather than Nihilus is simply someone else who became a wound in the force? How can this theory possibly make more sense?
It could possibly make more sense because no one else had encountered a "wound in the force" before the Exile and Nihilus, therefore the chances of 2 separate fallen Jedi becoming wounds in the force at the same time is essentially nil. It makes more sense that one was the offspring of another, or rather, that they are from the same entity.
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Old 05-12-2008, 01:44 AM   #220
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Well I have to say i just love the theory. It makes sense and explains a lot of Kotor2. I never liked the exile just being a wound in the force. Made me feel like my exile was 'tainted". If we look at it the way Jedifile put it makes Kotor2 a more fulfilling experience. Besides this theory doesn't limit the possibilities of Kotor3. I don't think they would base a game on healing the wound of the exile.
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Old 05-12-2008, 05:49 AM   #221
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I reject this theory. Not because I find it implausible. On the contrary - given what Avellone does on a routine basis, I find this infinitely plausible.

The problem is that I think it's dross. The idea of Exile's soul splitting in half and then taking root in another guy's corpse is frankly ridiculous. MORE ridiculous than Dark Empire - the Emperor's ghost at least only took over clone bodies that were still alive. It does complete the creepy triangle, though. We've got Treacherous Mom, Horror Lover, and Monster Me. All we need right now is Evil Vampire Dad and Sadist Sister and we've got the whole family freakshow dynamic.

The only real problem I can see for this from a story perspective is that Nihilus is destroyed...how?

By the Exile accepting...whatever the hell you want to call it into him? By banishing it? By casting aside the darkness? SOMETHING?

No. We hit it with a lightsaber a few times and he fell over like a limp duck. And keep in mind this is AVELLONE, the guy who ends an Act of a story with a long dialog instead of a bossfight.
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Old 05-12-2008, 01:14 PM   #222
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I reject this theory because it destroys any idea of Nihilus being his own character, reducing him to something ripped off from another genre that is completely foreign to Star Wars. He's supposed to be a mirror of the Exile, sure, but that's it. It also doesn't make sense if the player wants to be dark sided.


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Old 05-12-2008, 01:32 PM   #223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TKA-001
It also doesn't make sense if the player wants to be dark sided.
That's a good point, but just thinking out loud (or in writing) right now, I guess it doesn't really make sense for the Exile to be DS at all. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the destruction of Malachor V forced all of Revan's Jedi to make a choice - join Revan as a DS Jedi or die. The Exile was the only Jedi to break away from those 2 options, as she chose to disconnect from the force altogether, right? That being the case, and this severance being as painful as described, it seems as if the Exile would literally do anything to avoid going to the DS. Why would she then later choose the DS, after going through so much to avoid it?

Perhaps part of my assumptions described above are wrong, so I would love to listen to any feedback that some of the TSL experts might be able to offer.


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Old 05-12-2008, 03:43 PM   #224
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not exactly. The DS is always tempting, just think of the Skywalker legacy. Even if the Exile tried to avoid it, circumstances could easily tip the scale. Plus one's opinion can change in such an amount of time.


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Old 05-12-2008, 05:28 PM   #225
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I got the impression that Nihilus was the Exile's sorta metaphorical other half, not his literal dark self. People speaking of Nihilus's backstory seem to inicate clearly he was just a jedi possibly caught in the wake of the destruction of Malachor who learned some type of teaching there and become whatever the heck his was in second game.
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Old 05-13-2008, 06:04 PM   #226
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gurges-Ahter
I guess it doesn't really make sense for the Exile to be DS at all. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the destruction of Malachor V forced all of Revan's Jedi to make a choice - join Revan as a DS Jedi or die. The Exile was the only Jedi to break away from those 2 options, as she chose to disconnect from the force altogether, right? That being the case, and this severance being as painful as described, it seems as if the Exile would literally do anything to avoid going to the DS. Why would she then later choose the DS, after going through so much to avoid it?
Remember that Revan tried to kill her/him at Malachor V. The Mass Shadow Generator was supposed to kill everyone on it's effect radius, she wouldn't ally him/herself with her/him would-be killer. He/she was forced into disconnecting from the Force in order to survive.


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Old 05-13-2008, 06:29 PM   #227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ctrl_Alt_Del
Remember that Revan tried to kill her/him at Malachor V. The Mass Shadow Generator was supposed to kill everyone on it's effect radius, she wouldn't ally him/herself with her/him would-be killer. He/she was forced into disconnecting from the Force in order to survive.
That's slightly different than I interpreted it, although I am probably wrong since I've only had one play-through. The way I interpreted it was that the events that took place at Malachor V forced all of Revan's followers, weak or strong, to either fully take Revan's side as DS or die. The Exile was the only Jedi that did not choose one of those alternatives; she chose to disconnect from the force altogether.

EDIT: After reading my response, I think I failed to sufficiently describe how I viewed it. Basically Revan attempted to kill all of the Jedi following him that wouldn't turn DS, and the Mass Shadow Generator destroying Malachor V was the way to do it. The would it created forced the Jedi to choose death or DS with Revan, and the Exile was the only Jedi to choose neither.


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Old 05-14-2008, 10:27 PM   #228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gurges-Ahter
EDIT: After reading my response, I think I failed to sufficiently describe how I viewed it. Basically Revan attempted to kill all of the Jedi following him that wouldn't turn DS, and the Mass Shadow Generator destroying Malachor V was the way to do it. The would it created forced the Jedi to choose death or DS with Revan, and the Exile was the only Jedi to choose neither.
Actually, he intended to kill everyone at Malachor. Republic or Mandalorian. The task-force to Malachor was composed of officers, soldiers and Jedi as to which loyalty to Revan was on doubt. Revan wouldn't take his chances.


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Old 05-14-2008, 10:52 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by Ctrl_Alt_Del
Actually, he intended to kill everyone at Malachor. Republic or Mandalorian. The task-force to Malachor was composed of officers, soldiers and Jedi as to which loyalty to Revan was on doubt. Revan wouldn't take his chances.
So the Exile ordered her own death? The Exile was the one who ordered the activation of the MSG when she realized that the Republic forces wouldn't arrive in time to hold off the Mandalorian fleet.

When the Exile decided to return to the Jedi Council for judgment and to explain her choice to leave to join Revan and Malak, Malak wanted to have the Exile killed but Revan said not to; he wanted the Council to realize they were wrong. So I'm not sure how Revan tried to kill the Exile.

Lastly, all of the remaining living Jedi went DS, even the Jedi not on Malachor. That, to me, means that the actions that took place on Malachor had more of an effect than just killing everyone there. The would it left in the force forced all of the remaining Jedi to choose DS or die. The Exile was the exception.


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Old 05-14-2008, 11:09 PM   #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gurges-Ahter
So the Exile ordered her own death? The Exile was the one who ordered the activation of the MSG when she realized that the Republic forces wouldn't arrive in time to hold off the Mandalorian fleet.
He/she didn't knew that it would kill everything, obviously.
Quote:
When the Exile decided to return to the Jedi Council for judgment and to explain her choice to leave to join Revan and Malak, Malak wanted to have the Exile killed but Revan said not to; he wanted the Council to realize they were wrong. So I'm not sure how Revan tried to kill the Exile.
I'm not sure I follow. Where did you take that from?

Quote:
Lastly, all of the remaining living Jedi went DS, even the Jedi not on Malachor. That, to me, means that the actions that took place on Malachor had more of an effect than just killing everyone there. The would it left in the force forced all of the remaining Jedi to choose DS or die. The Exile was the exception.
Well, I posed the scenario. The Jedi that weren't at Malachor were trusted by Revan and would chose to stand by him/her, threats notwithstanding. It's perfectly feasible.


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Old 05-14-2008, 11:51 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by Ctrl_Alt_Del
He/she didn't knew that it would kill everything, obviously.
I guess I'll just disagree. I thought she activated the MSG because he knew it would kill everything.
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I'm not sure I follow. Where did you take that from?
Wookieepedia - see below. I know it's not always right, but I tend to believe it most of the time, and especially with this because I think it fits the story perfectly.
Quote:
Overseeing the final battle at Malachor V, she gave the order to activate the Mass Shadow Generator when it was clear that the bulk of the Republic's forces, led by Revan, would not arrive in time to engage the massed Mandalorian armada. She watched silently from the bridge of her command ship as the generator crushed both the Republic and Mandalorian forces caught in its destructive wake. The ensuing death and destruction, particularly that of comrades she had come to know during the war, caused such a substantial wound in the Force that the shock would have killed the Exile had she not unconsciously sealed herself away from the Force, effectively severing her connection to it. Thereafter she was deafened to its call; incapable of sensing it through the interference caused by the Force echoes of the suffering that she had inflicted and been forced to witness.[6] The only Jedi under Revan able to turn away from the dark side after Malachor V, she was also the only Jedi to willingly return to Coruscant and face trial for her actions—and also to defend them. Though Malak wanted Revan to use his assassin droid HK-47 to eliminate the Exile, Revan wanted her to face the Council and show them the error of their teachings, and so let her leave.


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Old 05-15-2008, 12:12 AM   #232
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From what I gather, only Revan knew that the MSG would destroy both fleets. The Exile activated the MSG because she was under orders to; there was no other reason. And Wookieepedia's account just says that the Exile saw both fleets destroyed, not that she knew that would happen ahead of time (also, I wouldn't trust Wookieepedia as far as I can throw it ).

As far as the Revan situation goes, I always thought that Revan assumed the Exile would be killed as well. After all, the idea was that all non-loyals would be killed by the MSG, and the Exile was not the most loyal of Revan's followers. Afterwards, his desire for the Exile to face the Council rather than death could easily be explained by guilt over taking the Force away from the Exile. As HK says, Revan pitied the Exile, both before and after the event.


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Old 05-15-2008, 12:41 AM   #233
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Again I'm just going to have to disagree. The Wookieepedia version just makes more sense to me with the experience I had with the game, and with the storyline the game provided. Also, what else explains all of the remaining Revan followers going DS? Why else did none of the Jedi return to face the Council, aside from the Exile, after the Mandalorian War was over?


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Old 05-15-2008, 01:08 AM   #234
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Because the Exile turned away from the Force. That's the whole point of the Exile.


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Old 05-15-2008, 01:14 AM   #235
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Ok, so that explains the Exile... what explains the rest of the Jedi that all went DS?


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Old 05-15-2008, 02:10 AM   #236
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They followed Revan and later Malak i would assume. Through KOTOR 1 Revan faces up with his past. The other jedi that went DS are not important to the Exile's story

I also strongly support Jediphiles theory, although I am still undecided whether the split took over a dead master or rather just a good friend. Obviously it had to be someone bonded to him.

Also, i find it odd that the exile joins the battle as a padawan but is going to take a padawan (the disciple). I seem to recall she is knighted or self proclaims jedi knight during the war. Anyone else notice this?

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Old 05-15-2008, 02:16 AM   #237
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I agree that they aren't integral to the Exile's story; it's just odd to me that every single surviving Jedi from the Mandalorian Wars all turned DS, except for the Exile. They weren't dark side Jedi when they joined Revan/Malak. They just believed in the cause. The war turned them DS, and Kreia explains that part of the reason Revan was able to convert so many so quickly was because of Malachor V. Wookieepedia also backs this up. I really don't see any other possible explanation.


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Old 05-15-2008, 02:23 AM   #238
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also, i just remembered, not every jedi joined the mandalorian wars. the ones that did were either transformed by battle or killed by the MSG. But there were LS jedi that remained after the war b/c they did not join. These were taken out during the jedi purge led by nihilus with the jedi assassins. Pretty much only the counsel members and bastila remained after that. And with regards to the ones that did convert to DS during the war, it is common with Star Wars that very few ever escape the DS on their own, they either suffer memory loss or are redeemed near their demise because of another

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Old 05-15-2008, 09:54 AM   #239
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I agree with all of this, however, I don't think it addresses my points.
Quote:
Originally Posted by General LiWar
also, i just remembered, not every jedi joined the mandalorian wars. the ones that did were either transformed by battle or killed by the MSG.
I never spoke about the Jedi that didn't join Revan; just the ones that did.
Quote:
Originally Posted by General LiWar
And with regards to the ones that did convert to DS during the war, it is common with Star Wars that very few ever escape the DS on their own, they either suffer memory loss or are redeemed near their demise because of another
I agree that it's uncommon for fallen Jedi to redeem themselves. What I find striking is that every Jedi that followed Revan and survived Malachor V turned to the darkside. They weren't DS before Malachor V (at least not all of them.) The destruction at Malachor V that left a "wound in the force" forced the Revan followers to turn DS, or to die (with the exception of the Exile).


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Old 05-15-2008, 11:28 AM   #240
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I think that all Jedi except the Exile who were at Malachor V were killed by the Mass Shadow Generator. It was never explicitly pointed out exactly how Revan converted all the Jedi following him, but I think its a combination of their loyalty to Revan, (only his most loyal followers were left after the battle) and him taking them to dark places and those specail Jedi conversion chambers Atton mentioned.
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