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Old 05-15-2008, 10:47 AM   #241
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I'm not sure if the Exile was actually on Malachor V or "watching from her ship", as wookieepedia states. Wasn't Nihilus on Malachor V?


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Old 05-15-2008, 12:01 PM   #242
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Obviously he/she wasn't at Malachor exactly but the Exile was obviously near enough to be affected by the destruction but far enough away not to be destroye by it. So I guess that would place him/her just outside the zone of destruction. Nihilus from Malachor in some sense, its where he learned his
"Hunger" from. I'm not sure if he was supposed to be in the Battle and get trapped there or he came there later and was stranded or somethng. Does anyone know something form the game that mentions something precisely about it?
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Old 05-15-2008, 01:50 PM   #243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gurges-Ahter
Ok, so that explains the Exile... what explains the rest of the Jedi that all went DS?
I thought that I had already adressed that. The ones which would likely turn their backs from Revan were killed at Malachor.
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I'm not sure if the Exile was actually on Malachor V or "watching from her ship", as wookieepedia states. Wasn't Nihilus on Malachor V?
Hmm? You took your last citation from Wookieepedia and now you're not certain of it?

Well, i'm pretty sure he/she was at the battle. After all, the Exile was the one that ordered it's activation. And as the commanding officer, he should be on the battlefield, don't you think?


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Old 05-15-2008, 02:48 PM   #244
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Logically, the best course of action in this scenario would be to be on the ship - why would you land any troops on Malachor V anyway? There's nothing tactically valuable down there except maybe the Trayus Academy and even that isn't going to give you more laser cannons. I would imagine the only people actually ON Malachor would be the techies setting up the Mass Shadow Generator.
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Old 05-15-2008, 03:13 PM   #245
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That depends on whether it was an entirely fleet-based battle or not.


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Old 05-15-2008, 04:56 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by Ctrl_Alt_Del
Hmm? You took your last citation from Wookieepedia and now you're not certain of it?
Just to clarify - I fully believe the Wookieepedia version. With statements like the one I made I'm catering to those who disagree with it, since it's not necessarily fact.
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Well, i'm pretty sure he/she was at the battle. After all, the Exile was the one that ordered it's activation. And as the commanding officer, he should be on the battlefield, don't you think?
I'm sure she was at the battle too. She watched the MSG activate from her ship, so she had to be there. But now it's you going back on your argument, I think, because originally you said Revan tried to kill the Exile. Now you agree the Exile ordered the MSG activation, so where did Revan attempt to kill the Exile?

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Originally Posted by Corinthian
Logically, the best course of action in this scenario would be to be on the ship - why would you land any troops on Malachor V anyway? There's nothing tactically valuable down there except maybe the Trayus Academy and even that isn't going to give you more laser cannons. I would imagine the only people actually ON Malachor would be the techies setting up the Mass Shadow Generator.
True - it's probably more accurate to say that the Exile was there in her ship, but at a distance and not in range of the MSG radius.


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Old 05-15-2008, 07:11 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by Gurges-Ahter
I'm sure she was at the battle too. She watched the MSG activate from her ship, so she had to be there. But now it's you going back on your argument, I think, because originally you said Revan tried to kill the Exile. Now you agree the Exile ordered the MSG activation, so where did Revan attempt to kill the Exile?
It's entirely possible that Revan thought the MSG would kill the Exile, and the Exile didn't know how dangerous the MSG would be.


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Old 05-15-2008, 07:51 PM   #248
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Yes, that's possible, just not as feasible as the alternative.


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Old 05-16-2008, 12:46 PM   #249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gurges-Ahter
Yes, that's possible, just not as feasible as the alternative.
Why?


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Old 05-16-2008, 03:36 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by Ctrl_Alt_Del
Why?
For all of the reasons I've mentioned above, including but not limited to the fact that Revan could have had the Exile killed (as Malak wanted to) but decided to let her go speak to the council.

Also, about the Exile not knowing how dangerous the MSG would be - I just find that one hard to believe because why would she have then activated it? She knew what it did - it would destroy all of the ships in orbit of Malachor V and end the Mandalorians right there. Why else would she have activated it? For fun? The purpose was to destroy the Mandalorian fleet.


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Old 05-17-2008, 10:02 AM   #251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gurges-Ahter
Also, about the Exile not knowing how dangerous the MSG would be - I just find that one hard to believe because why would she have then activated it? She knew what it did - it would destroy all of the ships in orbit of Malachor V and end the Mandalorians right there. Why else would she have activated it? For fun? The purpose was to destroy the Mandalorian fleet.
Yes, but Revan had the Mandalorians cornered. Would it make sense to destroy what seems to be an enormous fleet just to annihilate the last glimpse of mandalorian resistance? It would cost less lives if they sent a smaller fleet just to activate the MSG and die on the process, not a complete task-force. But no, Revan saw it as a chance to get rid of two nuisances at one time.


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Old 05-17-2008, 10:48 AM   #252
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Would it make sense to destroy what seems to be an enormous fleet just to annihilate the last glimpse of mandalorian resistance? It would cost less lives if they sent a smaller fleet
Why does Revan have to care about how many people die because of him?


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Old 05-17-2008, 06:26 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by TKA-001
Why does Revan have to care about how many people die because of him?
Because we know that one thing Revan never did, even at his most 'evil' (and I say that hesitantly because i'm with Kreia when she says he never fell') is throw away the lives of troops unnecessarily.

Plus, Malachor wasn't the 'Last remnants fo the Mandalorian resistance', it was implied that it was a full fleet, if not an even larger one as a result of Revan's breaking of the Malachor taboo.
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Old 05-17-2008, 07:30 PM   #254
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One clarification: Was Malachor V a suicide battle or not?
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Old 05-17-2008, 07:33 PM   #255
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In a manner of speaking, yes. Revan intended for it to be a suicide battle and a decisive victory at the same time.


"There is something going on in time and space, and beyond time and space, which, whether we like it or not, spells duty." -Winston Churchill

"For of all sad words of tongue or pen, The saddest are these: 'It might have been!'" -John Whittier

"Apathy is death." -Kreia
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Old 05-17-2008, 07:39 PM   #256
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I do not believe Kreia when she says he/she never fell. It soudns like more of her crazy illogical excuses. I'm fairly certain its stated that Revan did intentionally destroy most of his fleet at Malachor because he arraged for those he did not think would follow him to the Darkside. I got the impression that if it wasn't for Revan's victory at Malachor, the Mandalorians would still have a viable chance of fighting back.
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Old 05-17-2008, 09:20 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by Non-false Jedi
I do not believe Kreia when she says he/she never fell. It soudns like more of her crazy illogical excuses. I'm fairly certain its stated that Revan did intentionally destroy most of his fleet at Malachor because he arraged for those he did not think would follow him to the Darkside. I got the impression that if it wasn't for Revan's victory at Malachor, the Mandalorians would still have a viable chance of fighting back.
Well, the enemy within may be fighting for your faction (at least ostensibly), but they're still your enemy.


And as to whether or not he "fell", I guess the core of that is based on your view of the Force. If the light side and dark side are absolutes with nothing in between, then you could say that he fell. If you see the Force in shades of gray, then it might be questionable if he fell at all.

One thing is definite and that is the fact that he did become the Dark Lord of the Sith, and in a manner of speaking has some interesting parallels to Palpatine (among others, but we're keeping it exclusively in terms of Force-wielders for now) up until the point when he becomes the Mysterious Stranger.
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Old 05-18-2008, 12:05 AM   #258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gurges-Ahter
For all of the reasons I've mentioned above, including but not limited to the fact that Revan could have had the Exile killed (as Malak wanted to) but decided to let her go speak to the council.
But Malachor V changed everything. I bet that Revan sensed the change within the Exile, and sent her back in order to spark a reaction from the Council. Just think about how afraid of the Exile those four Jedi masters were. Revan had just started a war with the Jedi; what better way to begin than to show them the face of their failure?

Quote:
Also, about the Exile not knowing how dangerous the MSG would be - I just find that one hard to believe because why would she have then activated it? She knew what it did - it would destroy all of the ships in orbit of Malachor V and end the Mandalorians right there. Why else would she have activated it? For fun? The purpose was to destroy the Mandalorian fleet.
Yes, the purpose was to destory the Mandalorian fleet--not her own. Only Revan knew that it would kill his own men in addition to the Mandalorians. The Exile activated it because she was under orders to, and because she knew that it would destroy the Mandalorian fleet. Who would question that decision?


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Old 05-18-2008, 09:00 AM   #259
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TKA-001
Why does Revan have to care about how many people die because of him?
As long as those people are unreliable, he doesn't.

If he did truly care, he would send them with the smaller fleet I mentioned, not put such effort on trying to annihilate them.


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Old 05-18-2008, 09:30 AM   #260
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what better way to begin than to show them the face of their failure?
How is the Exile their failure? They didn't tell her/him to join Revan.


"There is something going on in time and space, and beyond time and space, which, whether we like it or not, spells duty." -Winston Churchill

"For of all sad words of tongue or pen, The saddest are these: 'It might have been!'" -John Whittier

"Apathy is death." -Kreia
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Old 05-18-2008, 09:36 AM   #261
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The Exile showed them how wrong they were about the Force.


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Old 05-18-2008, 01:07 PM   #262
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I'm fairly certain it was the Exile's choice to go back to the Council. And Revan doesn't think that the Jedi are wrong about the force, Kreia does.

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Old 05-18-2008, 01:10 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by Non-false Jedi
I'm fairly certain it was the Eile's choice to go back to the Council. And Revan doesn't think that the Jedi are wro ng aboutt he force, Kreia does.
I came because I chose to, not because you summoned me.
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Old 05-18-2008, 01:11 PM   #264
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I'm fairly certain it was the Eile's choice to go back to the Council. And Revan doesn't think that the Jedi are wro ng aboutt he force, Kreia does.
Why would Revan defy and then attack the Jedi if he didn't think they were wrong? Why would he turn to the dark side if he didn't think the Jedi were wrong about the light?

And I didn't say that Revan sent the Exile; I said that Revan let it happen, which was HK's recollection (that Revan didn't want to kill the Exile after Malachor).


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Old 05-18-2008, 01:13 PM   #265
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Why would Revan defy and then attack the Jedi if he didn't think they were wrong? Why would he turn to the dark side if he didn't think the Jedi were wrong about the light?
He defied the council because he thought the Jedi should intervene. This whole Force nature stuff began with Kreia.


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Old 05-18-2008, 01:17 PM   #266
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I'm not talking about Kreia's whole nature of the Force bit. I'm talking about how Revan thought the light side did not solve everything, like the Jedi claim. What happened to the Exile showed the Council just how little they actually about the Force.


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Old 05-18-2008, 01:31 PM   #267
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I do not understand. What exactly would showing them the Exile prove? They already have seen people turn to the Darkside. The Exile wasn't one, at the time anyway. I don't follow the logic of showing something they haven't seen before = the Darkside is stronger.
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Old 05-18-2008, 04:40 PM   #268
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The Exile showed them how wrong they were about the Force.
Self-opinion injection.

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I came because I chose to, not because you summoned me.
That's only one of the possible things to say. Maybe the Exile said one of the others.


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Old 05-19-2008, 12:02 AM   #269
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I do not understand. What exactly would showing them the Exile prove? They already have seen people turn to the Darkside. The Exile wasn't one, at the time anyway. I don't follow the logic of showing something they haven't seen before = the Darkside is stronger.
"Within you, we see something worse than merely the teachings of the Sith. What you carry may mean the death of the Force...and the death of the Jedi."


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Old 05-19-2008, 01:14 AM   #270
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So how does that help Revan?
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Old 05-19-2008, 02:20 AM   #271
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It caused the Council members to doubt themselves, splitting the Order in half.


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Old 05-19-2008, 06:54 AM   #272
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It caused the Council members to doubt themselves, splitting the Order in half.
but it didn't divide the council at all - they were pretty certain of what they needed to do: hence him/her being exiled in the first place.

if anything, sending the exile to the council was demonstrative of revan's failure, not the jedi council. here was a jedi who followed revan to war, yet didn't follow him to the darkside/sith when s/he had clear and ample opportunity to do so.
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Old 05-19-2008, 07:47 AM   #273
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but it didn't divide the council at all - they were pretty certain of what they needed to do: hence him/her being exiled in the first place.
The Exile's return was what caused Zez-Kai Ell to leave the Jedi, and was instrumental in Atris' fall to the dark side. So I'd say it did divide the Council. However, they still never learned from their failure, as we see when they reunite and attempt to carry out the same punishment, nearly destroying their last hope at stopping the Sith.

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if anything, sending the exile to the council was demonstrative of revan's failure, not the jedi council. here was a jedi who followed revan to war, yet didn't follow him to the darkside/sith when s/he had clear and ample opportunity to do so.
Oh, I'd definitely say it was Revan's failure as well; however, remember that the Jedi didn't know how instrumental Malachor was in converting so many to the Sith (at least not then; they realized it after they felt the destruction of Katarr), and some, like Atris, believed that the Exile truly did fall to the dark side. So they couldn't see it as Revan's failure


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Old 05-19-2008, 08:59 AM   #274
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"Destroy their last hope" of stopping the Sith?


"There is something going on in time and space, and beyond time and space, which, whether we like it or not, spells duty." -Winston Churchill

"For of all sad words of tongue or pen, The saddest are these: 'It might have been!'" -John Whittier

"Apathy is death." -Kreia
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Old 05-19-2008, 09:25 AM   #275
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"Destroy their last hope" of stopping the Sith?
Kreia frequently (a couple of times on the way to Telos) mentions that if/once the Exile's fallen, the Sith would have won
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Old 05-19-2008, 10:21 AM   #276
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Jcarter - you're arguing two very different points in the mistaken belief they are the same thing. your words were that the Exile divided the council. that is patently not true. as you yourself point out, the council reforms from hiding in order to unilaterally take their agreed course of action against the exile.

the other point you're arguing is as correct as your first is wrong - that the council failed in how (in unity i'll add ) they dealt with the exile. THIS is why Zez-Kai Ell wanted to leave - but that was well after the fact. he realised the actions the council took were wrong, even though he fully supported it at the time: he says as much in the game.

as for the darkside, iirc, atris was the only one who thought the exile had fallen. the others all knew and said something along the lines of "no, it's something else" to which atris ripostes with her belief that the exile has fallen.
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Old 05-19-2008, 11:14 AM   #277
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Jcarter - you're arguing two very different points in the mistaken belief they are the same thing. your words were that the Exile divided the council. that is patently not true. as you yourself point out, the council reforms from hiding in order to unilaterally take their agreed course of action against the exile.
Eh...I suppose "divide" wasn't the best choice of words on my part. I retract the argument, and supplement it with: The Exile's return made each of the Council members question their beliefs. And as we know from HK's "101 ways to kill a Jedi" course, doubt is a very powerful weapon.


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Old 05-19-2008, 07:00 PM   #278
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How were Vrook and Kavar changed?


"There is something going on in time and space, and beyond time and space, which, whether we like it or not, spells duty." -Winston Churchill

"For of all sad words of tongue or pen, The saddest are these: 'It might have been!'" -John Whittier

"Apathy is death." -Kreia
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Old 05-28-2008, 11:19 PM   #279
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Vrook became more ornery.


"Everything I tell you is a lie. Every question I ask you is a trick. You will find no truth in me."
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Old 05-28-2008, 11:31 PM   #280
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Didn't say they were changed--just that they were forced to question their beliefs. Actually, the only one I can think of who truly changed was Atris, though she was already questioning her beliefs by the time the Exile returned (so I guess the Exile was but one factor).


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