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Old 05-16-2007, 12:58 AM   #1
tarbaby
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help for noobs (o.k....me)

I'm trying to get into this mod as it sounds kinda fun, but the documentation is ... well ... let's just say documentation is a pain in the butt when you're already busy!

That said, where can I find information on how to use the enhanced version of this mod

Specifically:

Player classes. The readme mentions customizable player classes. What classes and how do you customize them? Is this just a method to add custom skins to the game, or do the "classes" behave differently?

Skill Point System. How does this work? How long do I have to wait to get to use sabers? Or force powers? What happend to all the force powers? Can this be overridden? There doesn't seem to be a cvar for it. If I don't die or kill myself, can I do anything other than melee?

Custom Maps. What happend to all the weapons caches on some of the custom maps I've downloaded from other users? Do I need to adjust these to make them "OJP-able"?



I'm not trying to be a smart aleck or overwhelm anybody, but, after about an hour or two, I'm ready to go back to another mod (which shall remain nameless).

The point being: this mod is probably awesome, but without some kind of documentation, the average user will just pass on it.

I will acknowledge I'm no expert, but I have set up and maintained dedicated servers on other mods, so I'm comfortable with most of the concepts.

The server.cfg file is a perfect example. With simple instructions and a sample file in front of you, you can pretty much figure out how to set up a server to suit your needs. I can think of three mods off the top of my head (because they're on my computer) that have **.cfg files included. I literally had these files figured out and servers set up within an hour of downloading the mod.

With OJP, on the other hand, I had to search the forum to find the thread that had the link to somebody else's server configuration file.

Again, I'm not trying to pick a fight or flame anybody or anything like that, it's just that there are many options and few players out there. I'd hate to think that we're all missing out on something cool simply because it's not explained clearly.

TB

PS--you can all rip me now...
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Old 05-16-2007, 03:28 AM   #2
Tanqexe
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Yeah we need a user-friendly documentation, your opinion is perfectly valid. When I have a bit more time I'm going to write an OJP Enhanced manual that's user-friendly and not a pain to read through.

As for your current questions...

Player classes: Right now there are three "classes," and I use that term loosely because they're more like ends of a spectrum. You have your exclusively Force-wielding, saber-wielding Jedi (or Sith, you get the idea) on one end, you got your gadget-wielding, gun-toting gunners on the other end, and then you have the hybrids running in between the two. That's what's meant by classes.

Skill Point System: Whenever you get into an extended fight (I think) or you earn a kill, you earn skill points. You start out with a minimum number of skill points as well, set by the server. You have to configure it in your Force Powers menu. Immediately you will see that the left side (Gunners) is available to you, and on the right side there's Force Seeing. You can spend skill points on either side until you run out. Selecting that skill means you are Force sensitive, and you can use Force powers and the lightsaber. This while skill system config is not a CVAR, it's coded in, I believe, and it wouldn't make sense to be able to disable it anyway.

Custom Maps: Weapons caches are unnecessary when you can purchase weapons through the skill point system in FFA, TFFA, etc. But if you're playing Jedi Master on those maps I believe that the weapon caches will appear.


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Old 05-16-2007, 03:53 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarbaby

Player classes. The readme mentions customizable player classes. What classes and how do you customize them? Is this just a method to add custom skins to the game, or do the "classes" behave differently?
Exactly as Tanq explained. We're hoping to add some non-item or special high level skills in the nearby future (probably as soon as we get the damned hybrids balanced) that will make you feel as if you're actually playing a class and will make sticking to a set of powers worth it in the long run.

Right now there isn't much of a difference whether you get guns and a saber or just guns, but that will change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tarbaby
Skill Point System. How does this work? How long do I have to wait to get to use sabers? Or force powers? What happend to all the force powers? Can this be overridden? There doesn't seem to be a cvar for it. If I don't die or kill myself, can I do anything other than melee?
You should be able to pick your stuff then join with it, Force powers update dynamically so you don't actually have to /kill for every small thing.

You need to buy Sense 1 to have access to Jedi powers or a lightsaber.
I'm hoping that in the future we can make getting a new gun or lightsaber/Force power much more prestigious with a greater sense of achievement than it has now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tarbaby
Custom Maps. What happend to all the weapons caches on some of the custom maps I've downloaded from other users? Do I need to adjust these to make them "OJP-able"?
Tanq got it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tarbaby
The server.cfg file is a perfect example. With simple instructions and a sample file in front of you, you can pretty much figure out how to set up a server to suit your needs. I can think of three mods off the top of my head (because they're on my computer) that have **.cfg files included. I literally had these files figured out and servers set up within an hour of downloading the mod.

With OJP, on the other hand, I had to search the forum to find the thread that had the link to somebody else's server configuration file.

Again, I'm not trying to pick a fight or flame anybody or anything like that, it's just that there are many options and few players out there. I'd hate to think that we're all missing out on something cool simply because it's not explained clearly.

TB

PS--you can all rip me now...
The server.cfg is something even I have edited for myself. The OJP cvars and commands that you would want to change are in the documentation that is provided in ojp_cvars and another file I can't remember the name of.

Even then if you would like to start a prefab server you can use the create game function, it (like in any mod) will just use your own ingame cvars and settings.

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Old 05-16-2007, 08:11 AM   #4
tarbaby
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Max and Tanq:

Thank you for the responses. And the patience.

I hope I did not appear too unreasonable as that was certainly not my intent. We all (kinda) have lives, and completing a project like this is tough enough without having to come up with idiot-proof documentation too. I really do appreciate everybody who's contributed to this community and the OJP project is no different.

I spent a few hours with a friend going through the cvars and then playing the mod. Wow! This is a heckuvalotta fun! While a little unclear at first, I found the point system to be challenging and entertaining. I'm still not too sure how to use the player classes, but that didn't take anything away from the game.

The saber system take some getting used to, but that's no big deal.

I don't know if this is a limitation of the software, but: is it possible to activate/deactivate some of the key features of OJP? For example, if I don't care for the saber system, can I switch back to OJPBasic?

Other than that. Great job. I look forward to learning more about OJP's features.

The only things I would suggest with the next release are a description of the new game modes and player classes.

TB
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Old 05-16-2007, 01:26 PM   #5
razorace
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Tarbaby, this is the kind of feedback we need. It's very difficult to write manuals from the newbie point-of-view when you've spent too much time developing the mod.

1. Which docs did you look at when you got confused?
2. Where were the docs confusing?
3. Which mods have easy-to-setup server documentation and .cfgs?


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Old 05-16-2007, 02:49 PM   #6
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Razor,

Thanks for the understanding. When I re-read the message, I realized it was a bit intense....

First off, I've downloaded Enhanced .9u and Basic 1.2. My comments here pertain to Enhanced .9u

Installation was a breeze (no different than any other mod). The cvars list is good (once I realized it was in alphabetical order!). Saber combat manual is great.

1. The readme was a bit cumbersome as it includes bug fixes and other updates that are somewhat mundane. (I.E. the Map, Server, and UI tweaks). It's not so much that the information is not necessary, just include some of those things in the changelog. If nothing else, it shortens up the readme.

2. The docs aren't confusing so much as they are incomplete. The skill points are such a key feature that they deserve their own section. Similarly, game modes (some of us didn't play JK2) and player classes are other notable ommissions.


3. IMHO, the best docs are for Force Mod III. It was very easy to make sense of the player class system and new gadgets as described in both the readme and on their website. JA+ server.cfg file is broken into sections (i.e. "server settings", "admin settings", etc.) and noted where appropriate. (Sorry to plug other mods on this forum!)


Once again, thank you all for your patience. I know you're working really hard at this and trying to have a non-virtual life as well, so everybody's efforts are much appreciated. I hope more people will appreciate it as well, and I'll certainly recommend OJP to my friends.


TB
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Old 05-16-2007, 02:56 PM   #7
razorace
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Thank you for the kind words. I'm glad you like it.

In 0.0.9u, is the readme a .html or a .txt file? I've recently gone thru some of the docs and updated them to .html. I'm wondering if the reorganization helped or not.


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Old 05-17-2007, 12:21 AM   #8
tarbaby
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There's both html and .txt. As far as I can tell, they are the same.

One more thing: concerning the TABBots system: are these bots edited just like any other bots? Are there special commands I need to put in the bot files to convert standard bots to TAB Bots?

JM
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Old 05-17-2007, 12:34 AM   #9
razorace
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Err, which files did you look thru specifically? There's a lot of them and I'd liek to have an idea of which ones people are trying before giving up.

As for the TABBot bot files, they are the same. I've done that intentionally. You just need to select the bot type when adding them ingame.


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Old 05-17-2007, 01:58 AM   #10
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Oops! I looked at the wrong file!

The html file is definitely much shorter than the text file. It is organized much better and is much easier to read. It looks like a pretty good overview of what the mod offers. If you keep it in html, you'll just need to add a few more direct links from the readme to bots, saber manual, etc.

The only real major omissions seem to be an explanation of the point system and how (if) player classes affect game play. Be sure to explain how to activate force powers (I never use Force See, so it took me a bit to figure it out) and/or light sabers.

I would also suggest more elaboration on the TAB Bots: the way I understand it, any existing bot will act as a TABBot in OJP Enhanced. Adding the TABBot waypoint markers to custom/existing maps will make the TABBots "behave" more intelligently. I don't know if there is a good way to say this, but it would answer a lot of questions.

There's also no html file for vehicles, but that's a minor issue.

The html file setup is very good. I just needs a little more to fill in the gaps (as mentioned above). As I mentioned before, and "idiot's server" prefab would also be helpful in identifying key OJP features and how to use them....at least for "idiot's" like me!

TB
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Old 05-17-2007, 01:26 PM   #11
razorace
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Should this stuff be in the readme itself or in the larger, more detailed manual file?

Why would we need a html file for vehicles? There's not really that much new stuff with the vehicles for OJP.

What should a prefab server setup have? just a server.cfg or should it also have autostart icons and such?


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Old 05-18-2007, 01:24 PM   #12
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Ah a HTML manual sounds like a good idea. Although I haven't got the time to start on one yet, so maybe someone else will have to do it. Hopefully I can help out here after my basic military training phase (will get a 2-week block leave)
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Old 05-18-2007, 02:17 PM   #13
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I've done some work on one already. It's just far from completion.


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Old 05-19-2007, 04:04 AM   #14
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Bug Tickets

It might also be a good idea to mention bug tickets somewhere and what they are, if not in the documentation then on the website as until recently I had no clue what bug tickets were. I only found out after Razorace linked to one in his thread about the OJP file icon.
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Old 05-19-2007, 04:44 AM   #15
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That's probably a good idea, but I'll have to think about it. Part of the reason why it's only mentioned on the forums is to prevent spamming of the system.


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Old 05-21-2007, 04:27 PM   #16
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razor:

thank you for taking my input seriously. it's a refreshing from the typical "stop complaining or I'll stop modding" attitude that some modders have.

i took some time this weekend to go over the docs thoroughly. the .txt files kind of confused me. i realize now that you're transitioning and those files will probably (and they should) be deleted with the final release. as i mentioned above, the html guide itself is well organized.

that said, I have some suggestions. please note that these are only suggestions, not complaints or demands. i admittedly know nothing about scripting, so some of these suggestions may not make sense. you may have already thought of some of them as well. also, these are things to think about, so you do not have to answer me directly on these (unless you want me to explain something a little better).


1) TABBots -- can the user modify their names/behavior? if so, how? we can use our existing bot files, but will these bots behave like "baseJKA" bots or TABBots? in other words, will any bot running on an OJP Enhanced behave as a TABBot? how will TABBots behave on custom maps that do not have the special waypoint markers? the answers to these questions will not make the mod any more or less playable, they'll just help me better understand the system and how it operates. these questions will also influence how i set up my server (i.e. which maps and/or bots to use).

2) Player classes -- i think i may have misundertood this one. i thought it meant there were pre-configured settings/abilities for different types of players similar to the system used in Force Mod III. please disregard previous post on this.

3) new game types -- copy/paste explanations from JKII

4) server.cfg -- i would probably use the meatgrinder as a default. actually, i did use the meatgrinder as a default. it has bot, map rotation, and gametype scripts on it that the user can easily adjust. i added a few lines of standard settings and grouped all the OJP specific settings together so you can see them more easily. (i'm travelling for work at the moment, but i'd be happy to post a copy of my server.cfg if you'd like). i would also include a .bat file to launch this as a dedicated server.


lastly: i have no idea what your future plans are for this or how it will look upon completion, but, if possible, i would eliminate OJP Basic altogether. i would then add "enable/disable" cvars for the key features of OJP Enhanced. if disabled, players are, in effect, running OJP Basic. if enabled, players are running OJP Enhanced. this may not even be feasible, but if it is, and it's not too much work, it would make for a more streamlined package.


that's all (no, really!). it's a long post, but some of the suggestions are thinking points than working points, so (hopefully) it's not too much work!

TB
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Old 05-21-2007, 05:36 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarbaby
thank you for taking my input seriously. it's a refreshing from the typical "stop complaining or I'll stop modding" attitude that some modders have.
You're welcome. Unfortunately, it's not easy being a modder at times. The public can be very demanding and not understand technical or man-hour limitations. I think that puts a lot of people over the edge.
Quote:
1) TABBots -- can the user modify their names/behavior? if so, how? we can use our existing bot files, but will these bots behave like "baseJKA" bots or TABBots? in other words, will any bot running on an OJP Enhanced behave as a TABBot? how will TABBots behave on custom maps that do not have the special waypoint markers? the answers to these questions will not make the mod any more or less playable, they'll just help me better understand the system and how it operates. these questions will also influence how i set up my server (i.e. which maps and/or bots to use).
TABBots are basically just a complete rewrite of the internal code that controls the bot behavior. It uses the same botfiles (bot models, taunts, names, weapon preferances, etc) as the basejka bots, but their reasoning and navigation skills have been dramatically improved.

TABBots can use the standard basejka waypoint markers, but their navigation skills will be limited until the waypoints are customized for them. Basejka bots just follow the bot routes in a big loop until they run into a dead end and then reverse directions. It's very simple behavior. TABBots calculate the shortest route to their objective and then follow the waypoints until they reach their destination. However, to make the TABBots be able to fully navigate a map, they gotta have branched routes go to all the reasonable places on the map (instead of just a huge loop thru the map like with the basejka bots).

Quote:
3) new game types -- copy/paste explanations from JKII
Can do.

Quote:
4) server.cfg -- i would probably use the meatgrinder as a default. actually, i did use the meatgrinder as a default. it has bot, map rotation, and gametype scripts on it that the user can easily adjust. i added a few lines of standard settings and grouped all the OJP specific settings together so you can see them more easily. (i'm travelling for work at the moment, but i'd be happy to post a copy of my server.cfg if you'd like). i would also include a .bat file to launch this as a dedicated server.
Sure, I'd like to see what you got. I'll try to add a standardized .cfg and a .bat file for dedicated server to the next official release.

Quote:
lastly: i have no idea what your future plans are for this or how it will look upon completion, but, if possible, i would eliminate OJP Basic altogether.
Unfortunately, that's not really doable. OJP Enhanced requires the clients to be running the mod (unlike OJP Basic) and making everything togglable would be a nightmare. It would literially be like doing a cvar that toggles the game between JKA and JKO.

The OJP Basic/Enhanced split was a compromise that was originally done to make the OJP members who only wanted non-gameplay affecting enhancements and bugfixes. However, at this stage in the game, I'm not sure there's really any real demand for it anymore. I'll make a new thread and see what people think.


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Old 05-22-2007, 04:57 AM   #18
anthony41
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i would love to see the class system in (was it JA+ or FMiii?) _____ coupled with this seemingly innovative saber system. all tha'ts left now is making blaster damage realistic (like fatal on one shot!) and cover and usage of cover. =)

i've spent 4 hours reading and no play! i'll be playing soon enough though

Quote:
Originally Posted by tarbaby
razor:

thank you for taking my input seriously. it's a refreshing from the typical "stop complaining or I'll stop modding" attitude that some modders have.

i took some time this weekend to go over the docs thoroughly. the .txt files kind of confused me. i realize now that you're transitioning and those files will probably (and they should) be deleted with the final release. as i mentioned above, the html guide itself is well organized.

that said, I have some suggestions. please note that these are only suggestions, not complaints or demands. i admittedly know nothing about scripting, so some of these suggestions may not make sense. you may have already thought of some of them as well. also, these are things to think about, so you do not have to answer me directly on these (unless you want me to explain something a little better).


1) TABBots -- can the user modify their names/behavior? if so, how? we can use our existing bot files, but will these bots behave like "baseJKA" bots or TABBots? in other words, will any bot running on an OJP Enhanced behave as a TABBot? how will TABBots behave on custom maps that do not have the special waypoint markers? the answers to these questions will not make the mod any more or less playable, they'll just help me better understand the system and how it operates. these questions will also influence how i set up my server (i.e. which maps and/or bots to use).

2) Player classes -- i think i may have misundertood this one. i thought it meant there were pre-configured settings/abilities for different types of players similar to the system used in Force Mod III. please disregard previous post on this.

3) new game types -- copy/paste explanations from JKII

4) server.cfg -- i would probably use the meatgrinder as a default. actually, i did use the meatgrinder as a default. it has bot, map rotation, and gametype scripts on it that the user can easily adjust. i added a few lines of standard settings and grouped all the OJP specific settings together so you can see them more easily. (i'm travelling for work at the moment, but i'd be happy to post a copy of my server.cfg if you'd like). i would also include a .bat file to launch this as a dedicated server.


lastly: i have no idea what your future plans are for this or how it will look upon completion, but, if possible, i would eliminate OJP Basic altogether. i would then add "enable/disable" cvars for the key features of OJP Enhanced. if disabled, players are, in effect, running OJP Basic. if enabled, players are running OJP Enhanced. this may not even be feasible, but if it is, and it's not too much work, it would make for a more streamlined package.


that's all (no, really!). it's a long post, but some of the suggestions are thinking points than working points, so (hopefully) it's not too much work!

TB
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Old 05-26-2007, 12:39 AM   #19
tarbaby
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razor,

check your pm. i sent you something.

TB
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