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Old 05-17-2007, 09:47 AM   #1
Jae Onasi
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Is the ACLU anti-Christian?

Spinning off from the Falwell thread since I'm uncomfortable discussing it there.

Does the ACLU protect the civil liberties of everyone? Or is it promoting an anti-Christian agenda in a slick package?


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Old 05-17-2007, 11:46 AM   #2
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This is my opinion. And I personally do not know much about the ACLU, but I'll try with what I found.

Quote:
Religious liberty: Defends the individual right of Americans of all religions to practice and/or display affirmations of their faith in public, but not on public property with government sponsorship or endorsement.
I fully agree. Freedom of speech and expression should be respected, but should not be forced onto others. Putting a cross on public property is a statement that does not need to be there, and if it -must- be there then it should be surounded by the symbols of a variety of other religions, from the Jewish to the Satanists, in order to be fair. Not everybody believes that Christianity is the absolute, and in the millions of Religions in history there is no proof at all that it is.

Quote:
Separation of church and state; under this mandate, the ACLU:
* Opposes the government-sponsored display of religious symbols on public property;
* Opposes official prayers, religious ceremonies, and some kinds of "moments of silence" in public schools or schools funded with public money
Again with the cross in public. I am firmly, firmly, against putting prayer and religious ceremonies into public schools. In the hundreds of kids in schools, the chances that parents and students will be offended by a, lets say, purely christian prayer time would be astounding. I, personally, do not even say the pledge because of the line "One nation, under God." But Religion should be taught in schools as a reason of understanding, and I wouldn't be fully against leaning a bit about creationism in science class as long as the teacher stood specifially on what he/she is to teach... science, even though religion can be defined as a form of science itself.

Quote:
Full freedom of speech and of the press, including school newspapers
Love freedom of speech, but should be exercised with respect.

Quote:
Reproductive rights, including the right to use contraception and to have an abortion
Very touchy subject. If I, for instance, were to be raped and was made pregnant at the age of 13, I would want an abortion and for that it would need to be legal. Bringing a child into this world is EXTREMELY expensive and difficult and putting that onto a 16 year old who screwed up may seem like a punishment to you, but in reality you are doing nothing but punishing that child with a mother who is in no way ready to take care of it. Some women NEED abortions, even late, to save themselves from death or illness when a baby that is incomplete or seriously screwed up (Missing a brain, vital organs, ect) threatens their very life with it's problems. Now, I am not saying that I love to hang babies on a rope and beat them to death because I hate God and love Satan, but those that believe that abortion is wrong and should be outlawed... chill. Again, it is your belief and religious belief should not ever be allowed to interfere with the Justice/Law system.

Quote:
Full civil rights for Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender people, including government benefits for homosexual couples equal to those provided for heterosexual ones
This subject is very, very, very touchy for me and for very personal reasons I do not feel like sharing with any of you (no offense). Love is Love. I do not care for your opinion if you see it as an illness, or a mental disorder, or a disease. They are people, and people I know and love. Does that mean anybody who is different does not deserve to have the rights of others? Should dwarfs be taken away civil liberties because they were -born- shorter than you? Again, your personal beliefs and such should NOT be allowed to affect the lives of those who are just as much human as you are.

Quote:
Affirmative action as a means of redressing past discrimination and achieving a racially diverse student body
Discrimination is wrong, and any attempt to lessen it is fine in my book.

Quote:
The rights of defendants and suspects against unconstitutional police practices
Too often do I see police beating the hell out of someone for no good reason. Too bad they never really go to jail for it anyway.

Quote:
The decriminalization of drugs such as heroin, cocaine and marijuana
I am pretty sure that means, make them legal. If it does, then I don't agree. I see too many lives ruined by them, and making them legal wont help.

I've also seen a bunch of other stuff that seem to go under rumor and urban legend, but that covers their basics as far as I can tell. Overall, not a bad setup, but I am not exactly sure how far they go for each of their beliefs.

I am not against, in any way, of the voicing of an opinion. But opinion is opinion and great thought should be taken before anything or the sort should be turned into law. If we really wanted the Bible to be our law book, America would have never been created and we would still be ruled by the Catholics in England. Seperation of Church and State happened for reasons, and those reasons are mainly due to the Church and the beliefs of some people taking control over everybody. Will America turn into this? No, probably not. Are we giving the Church a little too much power? Sometimes, yes.

Pretty much all of America has banned Gay Marriage, Abortion, and Health Care is worse than ever. Let this go on a little more and Canada is starting to look really inviting.

This does not look like an anti-christian league bent on destroying all of your beliefs. It looks like an organization that is trying to keep those beliefs where they belong... in your head, and from your mouth, but never inside a law book or on public property.

But this is all my opinion and I respect what you believe.
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Old 05-17-2007, 11:59 AM   #3
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ACLU's Defense of Religious Liberty
This is the first link that Google spat out after searching for "aclu christian cases". There are more current examples via the links on the right.

The ACLU's mission can be found here.
This is from their FAQ, which also links back to this page.

If that's too much clicking, I'll summarize by saying "Yes, the ACLU protects the civil liberties of everyone. The ACLU can only be considered anti-christian if your expectation is that they take christianity's side in every single case, regardless of whether or not that position is the correct one".

I have better examples from my time at EvC. I'll see if I can dig them up later.
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Old 05-17-2007, 12:53 PM   #4
SilentScope001
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Quote:
Religious liberty: Defends the individual right of Americans of all religions to practice and/or display affirmations of their faith in public, but not on public property with government sponsorship or endorsement.
Quote:
Separation of church and state; under this mandate, the ACLU:
* Opposes the government-sponsored display of religious symbols on public property;
* Opposes official prayers, religious ceremonies, and some kinds of "moments of silence" in public schools or schools funded with public money
Okay, somewhat non-conterverisal. Somewhat. Altough I would like churches (or at least, the preachers inside of churches) to partake as lobbying groups and endorse candinates to try and influence governments. Not that I am pro-Religious Right...but because I am a 1st Amendment Defender, and I don't like things that restrict it.

Quote:
Full freedom of speech and of the press, including school newspapers
Yes! Still, not really that compelling when it realizes, well, uh, you don't have the right for people to listen to you.

Quote:
Reproductive rights, including the right to use contraception and to have an abortion
...

Fine. It's defintently Pro-Choice. This does knock it a bit away from Jae's position, so it does back her point.

Quote:
Full civil rights for Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender people, including government benefits for homosexual couples equal to those provided for heterosexual ones
Uh.

Jae, you are right. I cannot believe this. All this time, I thought the ACLU concered itself with freedom of speech and getting Churches off Public Property. Not, THIS.

Forget your views on gay marriage or such. I don't care if you consider it a mental illness or if you consider it an expression of great joy. I want you to look at Jae's question...does this promote an agenda that goes against Jae? Well, it can promote any agenda, and it sometimes defend religious people, but it is also against religious people when it wants to as well.

So much for netruality. By the way, I do side with their position, but I don't think I could join their organization.

Quote:
What is the ACLU's position on affirmative action?
The ACLU supports affirmative action as one of the most effective tools for redressing injustices caused by our nation's historic discrimination against people of color and women.
...Uh. Civil liberties? Civil liberties? This is a Social Justice issue, not a Civil Liberty issue!

And, I'm fine with "reverse discrimination". Still, doesn't sound like it helps civil liberties any.

Quote:
The rights of defendants and suspects against unconstitutional police practices
Horray!

Quote:
The decriminalization of drugs such as heroin, cocaine and marijuana
Quote:
I am pretty sure that means, make them legal. If it does, then I don't agree. I see too many lives ruined by them, and making them legal wont help.
Actually it means decrease the pentalies asociated with the crimes. For example, decrease jail time.

The ACLU is calling for decriminalizing drugs? Bah. Right of happiness isn't inscribed in the Consitution.
===
Overall, um. I wanted to defend the ACLU, to ease Jae's concerns, guess like I can't.

It looks like an organization that wants you to keep your beliefs in your head and in your mouth...except when it doesn't. For example, their beliefs on abortion and gay marriage are beliefs that I think some Americans accept. But they are beliefs, and they want to enforce that belief upon the government, which is totally fine, except they are also preventing religious people from enforcing their beliefs on the government as well.

Some beliefs are fine, but other beliefs are not? What sort of organization can go and censor beliefs at will and violate the 1st Amendment? Looks to be all of them, even the ACLU. Jerry Falwell could be more blatant, but the ACLU is more hypocritical.

/sigh. Listen, if everyone (including me) really wanted civil liberties, they should get out of the USA and form their own nations.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Onion
"The Cambodian government has established many exciting-sounding 're-education camps' where both intellectuals and everyday citizens can be sent at any time," Day said. Well, we at Barnes & Noble have always supported re-education in America, and we intend to extend this policy to our new customers." For every hardcover book sold, Barnes & Noble will donate a dollar to the Cambodian government to help re-educate local children.
Full Article Here
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Old 05-17-2007, 02:03 PM   #5
GarfieldJL
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Thing of getting Churches off of Public property you've neglected to mention that they had no problems with other Religious symbols being in schools, but they blew a gasket over Christian Religious Symbols being in there with symbols from other Religions. Sorry, but that's Religious Persecution on the part of the ACLU.
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Old 05-17-2007, 02:13 PM   #6
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Which case is this regarding?
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Old 05-17-2007, 02:29 PM   #7
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It would be more than one case:

This one is O'Reilly whom is a news commentator
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,191492,00.html

----------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,165644,00.html

----------------------------------------------------------------
A book
http://www.acluvsamerica.com/about/default.aspx

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by wikipedia
Rabbi Daniel Lapin believes that "saying Merry Christmas is NOT Offensive" and complains that "We see obsequious regard for faiths like Judaism and even Islam, while Christianity is treated with contempt". [6] Further, Lapin says that "Nationwide, Christmas Nativity scenes are banned from city halls and shopping malls but Chanukah menorahs are permitted. (They are only cultural symbols, not religious, you see.)" and concludes that "Religious Freedom is for Everyone - Not Just Minorities"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_Christmas



Took me about 5-10 minutes and I could probably find a lot more.
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Old 05-17-2007, 02:37 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
Does the ACLU protect the civil liberties of everyone? Or is it promoting an anti-Christian agenda in a slick package?
Being on the outside looking in and not to familiar with the organization, I would say that the ACLU has an impossible task. If the Christian "agenda" is to denounce others and advance its views over others, then the ACLU can't really promote that and still protect the rights of others. So I guess the answer is yes to both questions. The same could probably be said if it was any other organization.

Maybe a different question is, does the ACLU strike a good balance for all groups, or does it cater too much to one specific group?

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Old 05-17-2007, 02:49 PM   #9
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Decriminalizing drugs fits in with Amendment 4 against search and seizure. The "War on Drugs" has given police departments excuses to stretch it, if not outright break it in the name of finding and arresting drug users. It also fits in with the Repealment of Prohibition (Amendment 24, if memory serves)

Gay and lesbian marriages, as well as affirmative action, actually fits in with the Declaration of Independence more than the Constitution. ("Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness"). Of course, I'd argue that race is probably should be less of a factor than economic class. However, class and race have had a really thorny relationship. The assumption ACLU makes is that gays are not "choosing a lifestyle," but are biologically wired that way. Taking that view, to allow one class to marry and another to not is discrimination by the state. A religion needn't sanction the marriage, but the state hasn't got much reason unless they are endorsing a religion...and see Amendment 1

Abortion and contraception? Well, Roe vs Wade and Griswold v. Connecticut (allowing married folks to use contraception) were ruled on using the 14th amendment. Granted "Right to Privacy" is not explicitly spelled out. However, Amendment 14 and Amendment 10 also establish that a right needn't explicitly be spelled out to be valid.

As for anti-Christian? Well, religious discrimination against non-Christians is still alive and well, I'm afraid. See the examples I gave in the Falwell post, the fight the Wiccan soldier's family had to have to get his faith recognized, and the headache that happened last year when a rabbi requested a menorah be put at Sea Tac airport...which quickly got WAY the heck out of hand.


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Old 05-17-2007, 03:12 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Okay, somewhat non-controversial. Somewhat. Although I would like churches (or at least, the preachers inside of churches) to partake as lobbying groups and endorse candidates to try and influence governments. Not that I am pro-Religious Right...but because I am a 1st Amendment Defender, and I don't like things that restrict it.
They can do that now, but they lose their tax except status for doing it. Which I believe is fair. When I use to go to church I went for the lesson and not to hear the preacher’s political views. I vote the way I vote because of my beliefs and I don’t need a preacher telling me who to vote for. You know who they want you to vote for anyways. If Charles Manson was running against any democrat the preacher would tell you to vote for Charles Manson.

The ACLU is an important origination and they have done some very good things for this country. That said they do tend to go to the extreme way to often. I whole heartedly support the separation of church and state, but more and more they seem to be trying to interfere with our personal religious freedoms. I don’t know if they are purposely anti-Christian, but they step to that side way to often for my taste. Due to that fact I am unable to support them.


So to answer your question Prime as an outsider got it right. I’d say yes to both also.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime
Maybe a different question is, does the ACLU strike a good balance for all groups, or does it cater too much to one specific group?
I’d have to say no to this question. I don’t know about any one group they cater to, but they do seem to go against Christians a bit often.


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Old 05-17-2007, 04:06 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Allronix
Decriminalizing drugs fits in with Amendment 4 against search and seizure. The "War on Drugs" has given police departments excuses to stretch it, if not outright break it in the name of finding and arresting drug users. It also fits in with the Repealment of Prohibition (Amendment 24, if memory serves)
Alcohol isn't the same as cocaine, crack, marijuana, opiants, etc. Also catching a drug dealer selling drugs on the street is hardly a violation of the 4th amendment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allronix
Gay and lesbian marriages, as well as affirmative action, actually fits in with the Declaration of Independence more than the Constitution. ("Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness"). Of course, I'd argue that race is probably should be less of a factor than economic class. However, class and race have had a really thorny relationship. The assumption ACLU makes is that gays are not "choosing a lifestyle," but are biologically wired that way. Taking that view, to allow one class to marry and another to not is discrimination by the state. A religion needn't sanction the marriage, but the state hasn't got much reason unless they are endorsing a religion...and see Amendment 1
Seriously, they don't have to call it marriage, they could just call it a Civil Union, because by definition marriage is between a man and a woman. If we twist things, then we open the door to polygamy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allronix
Abortion and contraception? Well, Roe vs Wade and Griswold v. Connecticut (allowing married folks to use contraception) were ruled on using the 14th amendment. Granted "Right to Privacy" is not explicitly spelled out. However, Amendment 14 and Amendment 10 also establish that a right needn't explicitly be spelled out to be valid.
So not allowing a state attorney general to find out if someone under the age of consent comes in to have an abortion involves the Right to Privacy. What about statuatory Rape where an adult rapes a minor and then the minor has an abortion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allronix
As for anti-Christian? Well, religious discrimination against non-Christians is still alive and well, I'm afraid. See the examples I gave in the Falwell post, the fight the Wiccan soldier's family had to have to get his faith recognized, and the headache that happened last year when a rabbi requested a menorah be put at Sea Tac airport...which quickly got WAY the heck out of hand.
Thing is the ACLU is a bunch of hypocrits. As I've pointed out where religious symbols for Islam and Judaism is allowed in public schools but not Christian ones, that's due to the ACLU and that's a violation of the 1st Amendment.

Furthermore, the ACLU routinely gets involved in politics and they are tax-exempt. Seems to me they should lose their tax-exempt status.
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Old 05-17-2007, 04:36 PM   #12
SilentScope001
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Quote:
They can do that now, but they lose their tax except status for doing it. Which I believe is fair. When I use to go to church I went for the lesson and not to hear the preacher’s political views. I vote the way I vote because of my beliefs and I don’t need a preacher telling me who to vote for. You know who they want you to vote for anyways. If Charles Manson was running against any democrat the preacher would tell you to vote for Charles Manson.
You do have the right to not listen to the Preacher's stupid calls to vote for Charles Manson. It's not as if your Church is saying, "You must vote for Charles Manson OR ELSE", maybe only just your preacher, and your preacher should have the right to speak whatever he wants. Freedom of speech, you know. Prehaps the Preachers should have the right to say whatever they want, but the actual Church itself should not endorse any candinates, thereby keeping the Church out of politics, while keeping human beings inside of politics.

Sometimes, political views are tied into the life's lessons. I really don't want churches to turn into political rallies, but it could happen, and if people want it to happen, so be it. It's their right.

Quote:
Thing is the ACLU is a bunch of hypocrits. As I've pointed out where religious symbols for Islam and Judaism is allowed in public schools but not Christian ones, that's due to the ACLU and that's a violation of the 1st Amendment.
I don't see any religious symbols for Islam and Judaism anywhere. Though if you are talking of religious expression, it seems the ACLU defends all forms of it, wearing crosses or head-dresses.

I think we need a new organization. I don't want the ACLU to be bogged down worrying about these sort of murky issues like abortion and marriage and legal drugs, or whatever. I think what we need instead is a new organization, prehaps some sort of "First Amendment Supporters", where its main goal is to defend that organization's broad interpertion of the 1st Amendment...NO MATTER WHAT. And that is all it's going to do, no comments on anything that does not concern the 1st Amendment.

Protests? Okay. Preachers (not the Church itself) endorsing politicans? Sure. Governments endorsing religion? No way! Basically, focus on defending the issues that matter rather than all these other...er...issues. Maybe this new organization might be better suited for promoting civil liberties than the ACLU. I don't know.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Onion
"The Cambodian government has established many exciting-sounding 're-education camps' where both intellectuals and everyday citizens can be sent at any time," Day said. Well, we at Barnes & Noble have always supported re-education in America, and we intend to extend this policy to our new customers." For every hardcover book sold, Barnes & Noble will donate a dollar to the Cambodian government to help re-educate local children.
Full Article Here
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Old 05-17-2007, 05:16 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
your preacher should have the right to speak whatever he wants. Freedom of speech, you know. Prehaps the Preachers should have the right to say whatever they want, but the actual Church itself should not endorse any candinates, thereby keeping the Church out of politics, while keeping human beings inside of politics.
Everyone has the right to speak to their personal option including the preacher. I don’t have a problem with one telling me who he/she is going to vote for and why. My problem is when they tell their congregation who they must vote for or they will burn in hell. That is when they step over the line. I live in the Bible belt and this in not an uncommon event here. This has happen to me in more than one church and in more than one denomination of church.

The rule now is they can not over step their bounds or they do risk losing their tax except status, so by all means they have the right to do what every he/she feels is right. Certain actions should and must have consequences. I also do not think you can separate the churches endorsement from the preachers. The preacher is the head of the church and the congregation so this person’s view is assumed the same as the church’s view.

That said you are right the preacher has every right to express his/her views, but just not from the pulpit. If the preacher wants to travel to every member home and speak personally to each member of the congregation that is his/her right. If they want to call a special meeting to state the case for voting for their candidate that is their right too. My problem is when they dismiss a candidate just because of the party without knowing fully the facts on both candidates. I also do not see why I’m going to hell for researching the candidates and making an informed vote.


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Old 05-17-2007, 06:03 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GarfieldJL
It would be more than one case:
<snip>
Took me about 5-10 minutes and I could probably find a lot more.
I'm afraid you lost me here.

The first link is a commentary made by O'Reilly (I'm glad you said "news commenator" and not "journalist"), in which he makes several references to the ACLU but does not appear to site any reference to a specific case in which the ACLU was involved in religious persecution of Christians.

The second link is a marketing site of a book which has a clear conservative bias. That doesn't mean that none of their points are valid, however I haven't read the book (and it doesn't look like something I would buy) so I can't speak to any specific references that it makes to the ACLU's religious persecution of Christians.

The third link takes me to a wikipedia site on the subject of The War on Christmas. The only specific mention of ACLU was in the external sources section which takes me to an ACLU "pro/con" website. On said site, I see many baseless claims (read: not sited) made by right wing "news commentators" on the left of the page and several comments made by ACLU representatives denying said baseless claims. Score 1 for attempted unbiasness. Score 0 for success of attempted unbias.

In summary, you made a claim that ACLU participates in religious persecution of christians. I asked you for an example of a case in which an ACLU lawyer did such a thing and you replied with biased rhetoric. None of the links you provided actually did this. The rhetoric I would be able to forgive if it had made reference to a specific case, but 2 of the 3 sources (can't speak for the book) clearly did not. Would you like to present an example of a case or are you willing to concede the point?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mimartin
I’d have to say no to this question. I don’t know about any one group they cater to, but they do seem to go against Christians a bit often.
Do you think this is because they have an unfair bias against christians or do you think it's because christians sometimes push the envelope too far in the interest of their agenda and the ACLU has to step in? It's one thing to say that the ACLU is going after christians and quite another to say that christian groups need a lot of supervision. Just interested on your take on this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GarfieldJL
Alcohol isn't the same as cocaine, crack, marijuana, opiants, etc. Also catching a drug dealer selling drugs on the street is hardly a violation of the 4th amendment.
I think the point is that we don't have enough room in the prison system for all the violent offenders because of all the non-violent offenders that probably don't need to be there. By decriminalizing drugs (not the same thing as legalizing their use), the idea is to find alternative consequences so that we can save the cages for the truly dangerous wackos. At least that's my take on it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GarfieldJL
Seriously, they don't have to call it marriage, they could just call it a Civil Union, because by definition marriage is between a man and a woman. If we twist things, then we open the door to polygamy.
Slippery slope fallacy. First, why not call it marriage? Or we could just change all "marriages" to "civil unions". What's in a name? You quote the definition, however you fail to mention that this is an arbitrary definition used by a very specific group of people. Since that word can have any value that we assign to it, there's no reason it can't be "a committment between two people".

Second, (and this is way off-topic), if it's consensual, why not allow polygamy? Not a lifestyle I would want, but if someone else wants to do it, what give me (or you) the authority to stop them?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GarfieldJL
So not allowing a state attorney general to find out if someone under the age of consent comes in to have an abortion involves the Right to Privacy. What about statuatory Rape where an adult rapes a minor and then the minor has an abortion.
Requiring the disclosure of personal information could place an undue burden on the woman. I'm afraid there aren't any "right answers" on this one. Best guess aka lesser of two evils.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GarfieldJL
Thing is the ACLU is a bunch of hypocrits. As I've pointed out where religious symbols for Islam and Judaism is allowed in public schools but not Christian ones, that's due to the ACLU and that's a violation of the 1st Amendment.
You've made the claim but have not provided any real evidence. In other words, saying it doesn't make it true. You very well may have an air-tight case that supports you comments, but we've yet to see it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GarfieldJL
Furthermore, the ACLU routinely gets involved in politics and they are tax-exempt. Seems to me they should lose their tax-exempt status.
ACLU gets involved in politics by backing political figures and/or parties or ACLU gets involved in legal cases which happen to have political impact?

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Old 05-17-2007, 06:11 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by GarfieldJL
Thing of getting Churches off of Public property you've neglected to mention that they had no problems with other Religious symbols being in schools, but they blew a gasket over Christian Religious Symbols being in there with symbols from other Religions. Sorry, but that's Religious Persecution on the part of the ACLU.
I agree that it's exaggerated to demand removal of Christmas trees and such, especially that Christmas is now as Christian as Kwanza. However, I'm unaware of cases where religious symbols, worn by the kids for example, have been banned, at least in North America. As such, on a personal and private level, religion is still perfectly allowed.

Personally, I would not use Bill O'Reilly in any kind of serious discussion. Ever. Or any American news commentator. Or every news commentator as a matter of fact.


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Old 05-17-2007, 06:35 PM   #16
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Everyone has the right to speak to their personal option including the preacher. I don’t have a problem with one telling me who he/she is going to vote for and why. My problem is when they tell their congregation who they must vote for or they will burn in hell. That is when they step over the line. I live in the Bible belt and this in not an uncommon event here. This has happen to me in more than one church and in more than one denomination of church.
Ah, but that's the preacher's view that "If you do not vote for [Such-and-such], you should go to Hell", and if so, should he not express that? It's not the Church's view, but the preacher's view, and I think that preacher should be able to say that.

It probraly does step over the line of decency, and it makes me wonder if this preacher is attempting to use religion to back his political party and rally his supporters. But it works. Freedom of speech exist because it allows for people to rally others to their cause, and screaming that voting for a party is your religious duty encourages people to vote. And because it works, I think he could be able to say that, from the bloody pulpit.

However, there are limits to free speech, and I believe that it is okay for those limits to occur, as long as the preacher is able to communicate his message in some way, shape or form. All the other ways you mention are okay as well...

Quote:
I also do not think you can separate the churches endorsement from the preachers. The preacher is the head of the church and the congregation so this person’s view is assumed the same as the church’s view.
Not in my Church. We got several preachers, and while some of them share the same views, not all actually do. (Then again, now that I look back, I could understand that they were vague in their statements, possibly to avoid the tax-man, but I know the underlining political message inherent in their speeches. I wonder if they are walking that fine line of using the bloody pulpit to present a lesson...and using the bloody pulpit to present subliminal messages to vote for a candinate or not.)

I think my Church is somehow going through a period of splintering. On the one hand, most of the preachers are against the Iraq War, so they are becoming pro-Democrat and pro-ACLU. On the other hand, they are going to have to accept whatever the Democrats say...which includes gay marriage, abortion, etc. Not to mention that some preachers has allied with another Church to wage a protest march against Planned Parenthood, as a way of showing inter-religious unity. As long as there are preachers on both side of the divide, as long as some preachers say, "Abortion is wrong!" and other saying, "Abortion is wrong, but it's a woman's right to choose wheter to do wrong!" and possibly even others saying, "Abortion is right!" (this is an example...I expect much more division in the near future though), if the Church is basically divided (like I predict my Church is), then I don't see any problem. The Church's many factions will all hate each other, and present their views as "truth".

After all, preachers are humans too.

But, maybe mine is a very special case. If a church is indeed unified in what the preachers believe, it could also be possible that the followers of that church may already agree with what the preachers believe, or at least close to it, and make a political statement by staying within that Church and accepting his views. Prehaps, in that case, it might be better for the Church's leader to create some sort of Political Action Committee, where the Church's leader make in big disclaimers: "This PAC has nothing to do with The Church. Nothing at all. Nada." When making his arguments, he quote the Bible or any Holy Book at hand, but he must state that the Church DOES NOT endores it, just merely that Church's leader. It might also be nice for the Church's leader to use evidence other than from the Holy Books, to provide a more robust argument for supporting the PAC.

[EDIT: By Church, I actually mean any Religious organization (regardless of religious oriention), or even a whole religion itself. I do not specfically single out Christianty when I say the term "Church". Sorry for the confusion.]


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Onion
"The Cambodian government has established many exciting-sounding 're-education camps' where both intellectuals and everyday citizens can be sent at any time," Day said. Well, we at Barnes & Noble have always supported re-education in America, and we intend to extend this policy to our new customers." For every hardcover book sold, Barnes & Noble will donate a dollar to the Cambodian government to help re-educate local children.
Full Article Here

Last edited by SilentScope001; 05-17-2007 at 06:45 PM.
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Old 05-17-2007, 07:36 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by GarfieldJL
Alcohol isn't the same as cocaine, crack, marijuana, opiants, etc. Also catching a drug dealer selling drugs on the street is hardly a violation of the 4th amendment.
However, siezing and auctiong off the propterty of those ACCUSED of drug crimes (notice that it's ACCUSED not CONVICTED) was common practice in Washington State. It was proposed as a good idea because it cut off drug dealers' assets...the problem was that people acquitted were being told "sorry, charlie. Just because the court let you off doesn't mean you can get your property back." Needless to say, the ACLU got in on that.

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Seriously, they don't have to call it marriage, they could just call it a Civil Union, because by definition marriage is between a man and a woman. If we twist things, then we open the door to polygamy.
The same BS argument was trotted out 50 years ago regarding interracial or interfaith marriage. The Bible was even trotted out saying that God had put the races of men on different continents and nations, and therefore it was ordained by heaven that they shoudn't mix, lest thew whole idea of marriage implode. The rather appropriately-named Mr & Mrs Loving challenged the state of Virginia on this point and won the right to have their wedding recognized. Now, interracial marriage makes up about 7% of all US weddings and the world ain't ended. Canada, Belguim, and the Netherlands have legallized gay unions and we don't see people lining up with their cattle or pet rocks yet, so the idea that letting a gay person have the same civil rights will cause the four horsemen to saddle up seems kinda silly.

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So not allowing a state attorney general to find out if someone under the age of consent comes in to have an abortion involves the Right to Privacy. What about statuatory Rape where an adult rapes a minor and then the minor has an abortion.
If there's a crime, deal with the crime, but don't go punishing the victim by denying her medical caren Two wrongs aren't making a right here.

Quote:
Furthermore, the ACLU routinely gets involved in politics and they are tax-exempt. Seems to me they should lose their tax-exempt status.
They're a lobbying group, so donations to them don't fall into tax exemption.


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Old 05-17-2007, 08:20 PM   #18
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This is by no means anywhere near exhaustive. It would take me an entire book to list all the cases where the ACLU targeted religion (almost exclusively Christian), or did not defend the civil liberties of a religious organization that was clearly having its constitutional rights violated. I did get these cases from conservative sites, yes, but the briefs are public record and speak for themselves.

Has the ACLU looked in the mirror lately?--admittedly conservative, but the six cases listed here are the kinds of things that disturb me in regards to free speech and freedom of religion. I can look up and link all the cases at some point if you're dying for me to do that. Otherwise, you can certainly google the cases yourself.

Kerrigan Brief--The Conn. Governer signed legislation allowing benefits to same-sex couples, but also defined _marriage_ (not civil unions) as being between one man and one woman. The state legislature passed it, and the governor signed it, and same-sex couples have the same benefits as married couples. Why are they now suing? Regardless of what you think of homosexuality (I'm fine with civil unions, btw, just so you know), if it's the decision of the majority of people, _and_ same-sex couples are afforded the same rights except for the one name, why is the ACLU not defending the will of the people?

ACLU sues Pentagon to keep Boy Scouts off bases--speaks for itself. Heaven forbid we allow places for wholesome groups like the Boy Scouts to meet.

Gray vs. Kohl --Why did the ACLU decide not to defend what clearly is a violation of the First Amendment and was improper arrest by police? If this was any other religion besides Christianity, certainly any other non-religious group, they would have jumped all over it. I think it's hypocritical to say you defend religious rights, but only if you're not Christian.

The ACLU defends NAMBLA and the wiki link I'm not sure how the ACLU can possibly defend an organization that explains in detail how to molest young boys. Even with their little 'disclaimer', it's astonishing that they'd defend a group that willingly violates laws and more importantly, children. What about the young boy who was molested and died? Did the ACLU care about _his_ rights? Apparently not. That says just about all that can be said about this group.


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Old 05-17-2007, 09:02 PM   #19
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The ACLU defends NAMBLA and the wiki link I'm not sure how the ACLU can possibly defend an organization that explains in detail how to molest young boys. Even with their little 'disclaimer', it's astonishing that they'd defend a group that willingly violates laws and more importantly, children. What about the young boy who was molested and died? Did the ACLU care about _his_ rights? Apparently not. That says just about all that can be said about this group.
Uh.

That wiki link shows that NAMBLA is an association, not a corproation, therefore, it is not repsonsible for anything, since it is merely an association. THAT isn't a free speech issue, this is an issue of responsiblity. Since anyone can join an association, it is merely the fault of the people inside of the association. If NAMBLA was a corporation, then it could be held responsible for the actions of people inside of the organization, but it is not. It is an association, therefore, the people who should get punished are the people inside of the organization.

Which is exactly what is happening now. They are suing the leaders of NAMBLA, not NAMBLA itself. Just held up in court, that's all.

Yes, yes, this misses the whole point of the lawsuit. But it's true, it's merely an association.

(But, ACLU was worried about the prosecution of political groups just because they are unpopular, hence why they went to defend it. Unpopular viewpoints need to be defended and all. Why? Because if you say you can censor certain viewpoints because we hate them, then it leads to precentent. Why must I censor that one viewpoint? Why not censor others?)

Now, of course, if they have DONE illegal actions, then all that free speech issue get thrown out the window. It's illegal to throw a bomb and then hide under free speech. It is also illegal to rape a child or commit pedophilia (without the consent of the child, but according to law, a child cannot give consent, so this is moot). But, the burden of proof is on the prosecutors to prove NAMBLA's leaders are guilty rather than on NAMBLA's leaders to prove innocence. And NAMBLA's leaders can whine that it's being done as a way to supress them, so the ACLU is defending those leaders. Not only that, but it seems that the only evidence they got is NAMBLA's phamplets, meaning that it will be a hard case for the prosecutors to nail NAMBLA's leaders.

NAMBLA, the association, advocates a position that many people dislike, no doubt about it, which is Legalization of pedophila. But, well, it does not advocate breaking the law, at least in public. There is no evidence that NAMBLA's leaders has broken the law, therefore, it looks to be a crusade against NAMBLA's right to free speech. Innocence before proven guilty...

[EDIT: now that I think about it, I must clarify, I wasn't defending NAMBLA, only whatever ACLU is doing.]

Listen, if you really want to go and make the ALCU look bad, bring this up:

Quote:
Spam
The ACLU's stance on spam is considered controversial by a broad cross-section of political points of view. In 2000, Marvin Johnson, a legislative counsel for the ACLU, stated that proposed anti-spam legislation infringed on free speech by denying anonymity and by forcing spam to be labeled as such: "Standardized labeling is compelled speech." He also stated, "It's relatively simple to click and delete."[50]

This analysis is rejected by many Internet service providers and system administrators as failing to address the uninvited costs of spam, which are borne by the owners of the mail servers that have to filter or handle it.[51] One legal comparison used in criticizing the ACLU's position is to compare spam to junk fax, which is illegal because of the cost of fax paper and other limited resources on the part of the recipient.[52] Spamming not only imposes costs on the recipient, but is most often sent through stolen computer resources, such as by use of computer viruses to send spam through home computers.

This debate found the ACLU joining with the Direct Marketing Association and the Center for Democracy and Technology in criticizing a bipartisan bill in the House of Representatives in 2000; already by 1997 the ACLU had taken a strong position that nearly all spam legislation was improper,[53] although it has supported "opt-out" requirements in some cases. The ACLU opposed the 2003 CAN-SPAM act[54] suggesting that it could have a chilling effect on speech in cyberspace.
ACLU is for Spam? Gah!

EDIT2: As for that Gary case, it seems he did not contact the ACLU, since there are also numerous cases where the ACLU does get involved...cited by Achilles. Do remember that this is a pro-ACLU site though, and it does not give much descriptions on what cases they are doing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Onion
"The Cambodian government has established many exciting-sounding 're-education camps' where both intellectuals and everyday citizens can be sent at any time," Day said. Well, we at Barnes & Noble have always supported re-education in America, and we intend to extend this policy to our new customers." For every hardcover book sold, Barnes & Noble will donate a dollar to the Cambodian government to help re-educate local children.
Full Article Here

Last edited by SilentScope001; 05-17-2007 at 09:16 PM.
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Old 05-17-2007, 09:23 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Uh.
That wiki link shows that NAMBLA is an association, not a corproation, therefore, it is not repsonsible for anything, since it is merely an association.
I'm not about to go click on Nambla's site to find out its exact legal status. There are associations that also have corporation status, even if it's an LLC and not an s-corp.

The Nambla folks didn't call the ACLU, either. The ACLU volunteered for the job.


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Old 05-17-2007, 09:38 PM   #21
SilentScope001
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I'm not about to go click on Nambla's site to find out its exact legal status. There are associations that also have corporation status, even if it's an LLC and not an s-corp.
Well, no, it's not on their website, it was on the wikipedia article you cited about the court case. The courts ruled it was an association. I also wonder if the LCC or such usually are for businesses, and the NAMBLA seem to be a political organization...

Quote:
The Nambla folks didn't call the ACLU, either. The ACLU volunteered for the job.
NAMBLA just probraly being a bit too pro-active in their defense of the 1st Amendmnet for their own good, what with the slippery slope, and the cause of precedent (If we can destroy one organization because we hate them, we can destroy others). While censorship is distasteful to me and I hate it, I wonder if having a bit (or a lot) of political censorship could be pretty useful in helping keep society in line and in check with social norms. I rather society choose either no censorship or all censorship...not pick and choose.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Onion
"The Cambodian government has established many exciting-sounding 're-education camps' where both intellectuals and everyday citizens can be sent at any time," Day said. Well, we at Barnes & Noble have always supported re-education in America, and we intend to extend this policy to our new customers." For every hardcover book sold, Barnes & Noble will donate a dollar to the Cambodian government to help re-educate local children.
Full Article Here
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Old 05-17-2007, 09:47 PM   #22
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The fact is the ACLU does target Christians, and only conservative sites will report on it because the ACLU promotes the left wing agenda of the Left wing liberals in the media.
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Old 05-17-2007, 11:16 PM   #23
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But does it target Christians because the Christians target everyone else? I don't know.

And is the right conservative Christians agenda-free?

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Old 05-18-2007, 12:18 AM   #24
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Does the ACLU protect the civil liberties of everyone? Or is it promoting an anti-Christian agenda in a slick package?
When the ACLU rails against things like organized prayer in public schools and ten commandment displays outside of public courthouses, it certainly easily appears so to many Christians. However, the ACLU does indeed defend religious peoples' rights. You have the right to pray in school as long as it does not interrupt class for everyone else. You have the right to pray at extracurricular events. You have the right to put as many crosses as you want to on your own lawn. And so on. The ACLU is everything but anti-Christian.

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Jae, you are right. I cannot believe this. All this time, I thought the ACLU concerned itself with freedom of speech and getting Churches off Public Property. Not THIS.
It concerns itself with all civil rights, not merely those of religious people and atheists.

Quote:
Forget your views on gay marriage or such. I don't care if you consider it a mental illness or if you consider it an expression of great joy. I want you to look at Jae's question...does this promote an agenda that goes against Jae? Well, it can promote any agenda, and it sometimes defend religious people, but it is also against religious people when it wants to as well.
It's not 'against religious people' to allow homosexuals rights. That's like saying that the ACLU should not defend Christians' rights to pray in school because that'd be 'against Satanism', or that universal suffrage is 'against chauvinism'. Your rights go to my nose.

Quote:
So much for netruality. By the way, I do side with their position, but I don't think I could join their organization.
It is neutral in that it defends everyone's civil liberties. Homosexuals fall under the 'everyone' category. Again, your rights end at my snout. If your religious teachings prohibit gays from marrying, it can't be respected if it's not morally sound to allow gays to marry.

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Fine. It's defintently Pro-Choice. This does knock it a bit away from Jae's position, so it does back her point.
No. It disagrees with the Christian perception that abortion is evil, but it's not targeting Christians.

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Seriously, they don't have to call it marriage, they could just call it a Civil Union, because by [current] definition marriage is between a man and a woman.
Marriage is not an absolute, solid definition that's remained unchanged forever. It was once illegal for a white man to marry a black man - should they have to call their pact a 'civil union' too? After all, marriage was once defined as being between a man and woman of the same ethnicity. Or social class. Or nationality.

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Thing is the ACLU is a bunch of hypocrites. As I've pointed out where religious symbols for Islam and Judaism is allowed in public schools but not Christian ones, that's due to the ACLU and that's a violation of the 1st Amendment.
I can't think of a single such case.

Quote:
The ACLU defends NAMBLA and the wiki link I'm not sure how the ACLU can possibly defend an organization that explains in detail how to molest young boys. Even with their little 'disclaimer', it's astonishing that they'd defend a group that willingly violates laws and more importantly, children. What about the young boy who was molested and died? Did the ACLU care about _his_ rights? Apparently not. That says just about all that can be said about this group.
The ACLU defends freedom of speech, and while NAMBLA shouldn't be protected if they described in detail how to commit rape, their position on pedophilia, while culturally and morally backwards, should be defended. Same with neo-nazis and other people who really tick me off.

Quote:
The fact is the ACLU does target Christians, and only conservative sites will report on it because the ACLU promotes the left wing agenda of the Left wing liberals in the media.
1. It targets Christians who seek to infringe on others civil liberties, or violate the Constitution.
2. ACLU views coincide with the 'left wing agenda' because said agenda happens to promote civil liberties and freedom. There's nothing more to it than that.

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Old 05-18-2007, 12:50 AM   #25
SilentScope001
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It concerns itself with all civil rights, not merely those of religious people and atheists.
Hm. Well, not with the civil right to disagree with another person.

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It's not 'against religious people' to allow homosexuals rights. That's like saying that the ACLU should not defend Christians' rights to pray in school because that'd be 'against Satanism', or that universal suffrage is 'against chauvinism'. Your rights go to my nose.
And your rights goes to my nose.

Listen, I agree with ACLU, but they are declaring their beliefs to be "true", thereby making Jae mad. They are forcing their beliefs on all these other people, by claiming that they are the defenders of "civil liberties". You are basically telling them that gays could get married, and these people personally disagree. What the ACLU wants to do is metaphorically punch these people in the nose, by telling them that they are wrong and that they should not use their civil liberties to speak out against this suppression of a civil liberty.

The most important civil liberty is the ability to speak, to speak out against your enemies. And the ACLU wants to silence people who are against gay marriage because they are going against what they see as a civil liberty. I do not want to curtail one civil liberty in order to support some other civil liberty, thank you very much.

You have the right to campagin for gay marriage, and they have the right to curse gay marriage.

Quote:
It is neutral in that it defends everyone's civil liberties. Homosexuals fall under the 'everyone' category. Again, your rights end at my snout. If your religious teachings prohibit gays from marrying, it can't be respected if it's not morally sound to allow gays to marry.
It does not respect everyone's civil liberties to call them wrong.

Teachings cannot be respected if you believe something that other people do not? Sounds like a person punching another person in the snout right there.

This is why there should be an organization soley devoted to the protection of the 1st Amendment, specifically the freedom of expression and speech. Many people, in using the 1st Amendment, ends up trying to prevent other people from using the 1st Amendment.

Quote:
No. It disagrees with the Christian perception that abortion is evil, but it's not targeting Christians.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae
Does the ACLU protect the civil liberties of everyone? Or is it promoting an anti-Christian agenda in a slick package?
Jae never said that it was targeting Christians, just that it had an anti-Chrisitan agenda. If you are Jae and you believe that abortion is wrong, and that message of abortion is a key part of Christanity, then it seems anti-Christan, even if it is not purposely targeting Christanty.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Onion
"The Cambodian government has established many exciting-sounding 're-education camps' where both intellectuals and everyday citizens can be sent at any time," Day said. Well, we at Barnes & Noble have always supported re-education in America, and we intend to extend this policy to our new customers." For every hardcover book sold, Barnes & Noble will donate a dollar to the Cambodian government to help re-educate local children.
Full Article Here
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Old 05-18-2007, 01:02 AM   #26
GarfieldJL
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Actually they are anti-Christian when they support Muslim symbols in schools but they move to bar Christian ones at the same school. That is a violation of the 1st amendment right there.
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Old 05-18-2007, 01:04 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
Has the ACLU looked in the mirror lately?--admittedly conservative, but the six cases listed here are the kinds of things that disturb me in regards to free speech and freedom of religion.
Most of those I don't really see the point of the ACLU doing it. However, I don't think they were technically incorrect about the cases in general, save the one with the creche.

Quote:
Kerrigan Brief--The Conn. Governer signed legislation allowing benefits to same-sex couples, but also defined _marriage_ (not civil unions) as being between one man and one woman. The state legislature passed it, and the governor signed it, and same-sex couples have the same benefits as married couples. Why are they now suing? Regardless of what you think of homosexuality (I'm fine with civil unions, btw, just so you know), if it's the decision of the majority of people, _and_ same-sex couples are afforded the same rights except for the one name, why is the ACLU not defending the will of the people?
Married, civil unions - why does it even matter? There's little difference between the two; the only difference being that one group thinks that God approved of their contract. Why can't the same-sex union people think the same? Being "married" is essentially what they are doing. Why can't they just say they're married? If the reason behind the law is solely religious, then that law should not exist, regardless of what the majority says.

Quote:
ACLU sues Pentagon to keep Boy Scouts off bases--speaks for itself. Heaven forbid we allow places for wholesome groups like the Boy Scouts to meet.
I am in scouts, but it's pretty clear that their general policy is religious in basis - agreement with the oath and code is required to join. From what I can see, the ACLU is correct.

Quote:
Gray vs. Kohl --Why did the ACLU decide not to defend what clearly is a violation of the First Amendment and was improper arrest by police? If this was any other religion besides Christianity, certainly any other non-religious group, they would have jumped all over it. I think it's hypocritical to say you defend religious rights, but only if you're not Christian.
Reading through that I agree that it was a violation of their right to hand out Bibles. They didn't go on school grounds. I'm okay with it. Whether it was intentional of the ACLU to forgo the case is unclear, but it's not evidence that they are against christians.

Quote:
The ACLU defends NAMBLA and the wiki link I'm not sure how the ACLU can possibly defend an organization that explains in detail how to molest young boys. Even with their little 'disclaimer', it's astonishing that they'd defend a group that willingly violates laws and more importantly, children. What about the young boy who was molested and died? Did the ACLU care about _his_ rights? Apparently not. That says just about all that can be said about this group.
A couple of things: Just because they're the "bad guys" doesn't mean that don't have rights. Everyone has rights, and they don't give them up because we think they should. Supporting everyone's rights equally should be the goal of ANY system that wants to have the idea of justice remotely associated with it.

Second, the boy is dead. Nothing will change that. The people suspected responsible for his death were/are being prosecuted, and those convicted will be unlikely to harm society again. I suggest you grant the living what is theirs - the protections of a just society. Getting inflamed about it DOES NOT remove their right to that protection.

Overall, I am okay with the ACLU. I disagree with some of the stances they take, but for an organization I think they provide a useful service to our society.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GarfieldJL
Actually they are anti-Christian when they support Muslim symbols in schools but they move to bar Christian ones at the same school. That is a violation of the 1st amendment right there.
Source it, please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Hm. Well, not with the civil right to disagree with another person.
Civil rights are PERSONAL. They do not extend to anyone else. Other people have their OWN rights, which are theirs to make use of as they wish.


"Words are deeds." - Wittgenstein
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Old 05-18-2007, 02:09 AM   #28
Achilles
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
This is by no means anywhere near exhaustive. It would take me an entire book to list all the cases where the ACLU targeted religion (almost exclusively Christian), or did not defend the civil liberties of a religious organization that was clearly having its constitutional rights violated. I did get these cases from conservative sites, yes, but the briefs are public record and speak for themselves.


Has the ACLU looked in the mirror lately?--admittedly conservative, but the six cases listed here are the kinds of things that disturb me in regards to free speech and freedom of religion. I can look up and link all the cases at some point if you're dying for me to do that. Otherwise, you can certainly google the cases yourself.
If this is indicative of the rest of this post, then I'm probably going to end up doing a lot of your leg work for you.

Ok, the first case listed (at least I'm assuming this is the case referenced because the source you linked to is incredibly vague) refers to ACLU being called in after some parents complained about a local minister dressing up as santa and going to 3 county schools to prosteletize about jesus christ. The issue was settled by the school board without going to court. The sites' claim that the "ACLU tried to eliminate one school's long-standing Santa tradition" is preposterous. Link.

The second case listed (again, I think) refers to a case where the ACLU was once again called in by parents. According to this site (one of two I was able to find that specifically discuss this case), some of the actions of the school were out of line, however the case was dropped when the plantiffs moved out of state (as attested to by this site). Apparently, the ACLU is considered "pwned" by the right whenever trivial legal factors such as the plaintiffs leaving the state happens. Way to win the day, ADF.

*LOLs at "ACLU backs down..." headline*

Indeed, they were "conspir[ing] to crush a creche in a public school library".

The third case, once again at the request of several local residents, the ACLU sent a letter to an Iowa courthouse regarding a nativity scene put in a section of courthouse lawn. These ACLU people are real bastards. Link.

Unfortunately, I was unable to find any sources (other than the article itself) regarding the fourth case. Based on the pattern, I would tend to assume that the ACLU (again) became involved at the request of local citizens and (again) was acting within their mission. However I will concede that my assumption is not proof, but luckily the burden of proof regarding the claim of the ACLU's alleged inappropriateness lies with the author (and/or you).

As for the fifth case, once again the ACLU got involved at the request of a few Jewish families who's children didn't feel comfortable in Christian christmas pageant Link.

Finally, in the sixth case, you guess it - the ACLU was called in after local residents complained about nativity scene on the city counsel lawn. Apparently, the mayor exacerbated the situation by trying to implement a policy that made his action legal. Link.

Poor article, Jae.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
Kerrigan Brief--The Conn. Governer signed legislation allowing benefits to same-sex couples, but also defined _marriage_ (not civil unions) as being between one man and one woman. The state legislature passed it, and the governor signed it, and same-sex couples have the same benefits as married couples. Why are they now suing? Regardless of what you think of homosexuality (I'm fine with civil unions, btw, just so you know), if it's the decision of the majority of people, _and_ same-sex couples are afforded the same rights except for the one name, why is the ACLU not defending the will of the people?
Defending the will of which people? Is such action inconsistent with the stated mission of the ACLU? Help me understand how a case regarding same-sex marriage supports your argument that the ACLU is anti-christian (in light of the fact there are many pro-homosexual christian groups). Is the concern anti-christian or anti-neoconservative?

PS: I'm not reading a 28 page legal briefing. Sorry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
ACLU sues Pentagon to keep Boy Scouts off bases--speaks for itself. Heaven forbid we allow places for wholesome groups like the Boy Scouts to meet.
Again, anti-christian how?
FYI, the link your article will take interested readers to this site which as more information about the case. Of particular note (emphasis mine):

Quote:
Previously, Defense Department units held charters to lead hundreds of Boy Scout troops and Cub Scout packs, which exclude youths who do not believe in God. Additionally, the Boy Scouts of America requires troop and pack leaders, in this case government employees, to compel youth to swear an oath of duty to God. The ACLU of Illinois charged that the Boy Scouts' policy violates the religious liberty of youth who wish to participate but do not wish to swear a religious oath, and that direct government sponsorship of such a program is religious discrimination.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
Gray vs. Kohl --Why did the ACLU decide not to defend what clearly is a violation of the First Amendment and was improper arrest by police? If this was any other religion besides Christianity, certainly any other non-religious group, they would have jumped all over it. I think it's hypocritical to say you defend religious rights, but only if you're not Christian.
Did Mr. Gray solicit help from the ACLU in this case? Perhaps the ACLU didn't volunteer to jump to the cause because they felt the plaintiff was trying to turn a wrongfull arrest case into a free speech case? In other words, maybe they weren't compelled because no one's free speech right were violated (yes, I read most of the 24-page brief after stating that I wouldn't read the 28-page one. Don't ask why ).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
The ACLU defends NAMBLA and the wiki link I'm not sure how the ACLU can possibly defend an organization that explains in detail how to molest young boys. Even with their little 'disclaimer', it's astonishing that they'd defend a group that willingly violates laws and more importantly, children. What about the young boy who was molested and died? Did the ACLU care about _his_ rights? Apparently not. That says just about all that can be said about this group.
Right wing sources citing right wing sources in a nauseating circus of faux-journalism. Yikes.

Taken from your very own source:
Quote:
According to ACLU Massachusetts Legal Director John Reinstein, the Constitution sides with the publication of any material, however heinous, unless said material is "directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action." Apparently, for the ACLU, "lawless action" doesn't cover the sodomy and murder of a little boy.
Taken from the ACLU:
Quote:
What the ACLU does advocate is robust freedom of speech for everyone. The lawsuit involved here, were it to succeed, would strike at the heart of freedom of speech. The case is based on a shocking murder. But the lawsuit says the crime is the responsibility not of those who committed the murder, but of someone who posted vile material on the Internet. The principle is as simple as it is central to true freedom of speech: those who do wrong are responsible for what they do; those who speak about it are not.
So, were they defending NAMBLA or were they defending free speech? Regardless of whether you agree with their actions or not, I think the distinction is an important one. And regardless of that, this point is still irrelevant to your argument that the ACLU is anti-christian.

In a completely off-topic aside, is there any way that we can enforce some sort of standard regarding the quality of the sources used here? I know that "Kavar's Corner is not the Senate" but it really is a lot of work to chase down legitimate sources when others use less-reputable sources to support their claim. I think we can have standards and not risk our "friendly" status. Thoughts?

Thanks for reading.

EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarfieldFL
Actually they are anti-Christian when they support Muslim symbols in schools but they move to bar Christian ones at the same school. That is a violation of the 1st amendment right there.
Source/citation please. I can't possibly comment on the case you're referring to because I don't know which one it is
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Old 05-18-2007, 04:18 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by GarfieldJL
The fact is the ACLU does target Christians, and only conservative sites will report on it because the ACLU promotes the left wing agenda of the Left wing liberals in the media.
Ah. Classic "the lack of evidence proves there's a coverup" argument. Seriously, Garfield. I know you can swing better than that.


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Old 05-18-2007, 06:13 AM   #30
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Quote:
Listen, I agree with ACLU, but they are declaring their beliefs to be "true", thereby making Jae mad.
Every time you make a decision, you risk offending those who disagree with you. If you defend gays, you're 'anti-Christian'. If you oppose gays, you're 'anti-gay'. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. It can't be avoided.

Quote:
They are forcing their beliefs on all these other people, by claiming that they are the defenders of "civil liberties". You are basically telling them that gays could get married, and these people personally disagree. What the ACLU wants to do is metaphorically punch these people in the nose, by telling them that they are wrong and that they should not use their civil liberties to speak out against this suppression of a civil liberty.
No one in the ACLU, to my knowledge, is saying freedom of speech should be curbed concerned gay rights. Attack gays all you want.

Quote:
It does not respect everyone's civil liberties to call them wrong.
And yet it certainly does not disrespect them either.

Quote:
Teachings cannot be respected if you believe something that other people do not? Sounds like a person punching another person in the snout right there.
What I'm saying is that if your religion goes against civil liberties, then the ACLU's agenda will not coincide with it. No one's saying you can't preach it. Again, attack gays all you want, I can't keep you. We both live in free nations.

Quote:
if it's the decision of the majority of people, _and_ same-sex couples are afforded the same rights except for the one name, why is the ACLU not defending the will of the people?
Because that is not their role. Their job is to defend civil liberties, not cater to the majority.

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Old 05-18-2007, 09:32 AM   #31
Jae Onasi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Poor article, Jae.
I gave fair warning on that, Achilles, and said it was more important for the cases themselves. My point was to show multiple cases where the ACLU has gone after Christians.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Defending the will of which people?
The people who elected the legislators or voted for the marriage amendments.

You may have a point on pro-Christian vs. just conservative, however.

BTW, 'conservative' is NOT a pejorative.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles article quote
and that direct government sponsorship of such a program is religious discrimination.
How is allowing them to meet on bases 'government sponsorship'?
And why isn't the ACLU going after Muslim organizations that meet on bases, which routinely discriminate by excluding women or require non-Muslims to pray to Allah? It's very much a double standard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Right wing sources citing right wing sources
Sheesh. Like a left-wing source is ever going to consider the possibility that the ACLU is not fair in the application of its own standards. What other sources am I supposed to use? Being a conservative source does not automatically make it a poor source, any more than being a liberal source makes it a poor source.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ACLU
The principle is as simple as it is central to true freedom of speech: those who do wrong are responsible for what they do; those who speak about it are not.
The fact is that these men would have court-appointed representation and the ACLU did not have to go rushing in to defend molesters. I _used_ to be in favor of the ACLU's ideals in defending free speech. I cannot support an organization that condones the actions of child molesters. You're right--that's not an exclusively Christian issue. It should be a concern of anyone who finds child sexual abuse abhorrent.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
In a completely off-topic aside, is there any way that we can enforce some sort of standard regarding the quality of the sources used here?
Jae's rule on forming policy: Never legislate what you can't enforce.

There's no way to enforce any kind of standard other than maybe snipping the source. To be honest, I just don't have the time to track down and evaluate every single source cited, read it, and make a determination on its quality, and my idea of quality of ultra-liberal sources is likely different from yours.


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Old 05-18-2007, 12:04 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
The people who elected the legislators or voted for the marriage amendments.
If the people do something against the constitution, it's still against the constitution. If the will of the people constitutes religious law, then it should not be made law.

Quote:
How is allowing them to meet on bases 'government sponsorship'?

And why isn't the ACLU going after Muslim organizations that meet on bases, which routinely discriminate by excluding women or require non-Muslims to pray to Allah? It's very much a double standard.
The use of government land is sponsorship.

Also, what the ACLU does or does not do to OTHER organizations does not mean its actions in this regard are incorrect. Selective enforcement, I don't know, but preventing groups from using public land who discriminate based on religion is perfectly fine.


Quote:
The fact is that these men would have court-appointed representation and the ACLU did not have to go rushing in to defend molesters. I _used_ to be in favor of the ACLU's ideals in defending free speech. I cannot support an organization that condones the actions of child molesters. You're right--that's not an exclusively Christian issue. It should be a concern of anyone who finds child sexual abuse abhorrent.
It does concern me, Jae. However, I'm not the one who decides whether someone's guilty. That's the court's decision, and until they're proven guilty I will not treat them like they are. They are just as eligible for support by the ACLU as your people handing out Bibles. I will quote myself again: "I suggest you grant the living what is theirs - the protections of a just society. Getting inflamed about it DOES NOT remove their right to that protection."


"Words are deeds." - Wittgenstein
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Old 05-18-2007, 12:23 PM   #33
SilentScope001
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Quote:
Civil rights are PERSONAL. They do not extend to anyone else. Other people have their OWN rights, which are theirs to make use of as they wish.
Civil Rights are personal, which means it is my right to say anything I so desire, as long as it conforms to laws.

But they are attacking my own expression of civil rights, by calling my use of it wrong, since I am going against other people's civil liberties. They call me intolerant. They will defend to the death my right to say it, and yet they will also defend to the death their right to have their view get government support, because their view is the "correct" one.

Quote:
Every time you make a decision, you risk offending those who disagree with you. If you defend gays, you're 'anti-Christian'. If you oppose gays, you're 'anti-gay'. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. It can't be avoided.
What about having some more tolerance in the world? Saying, I defend Gays, but I respect your viewpoints about why you dislike Gays, let's agree to disagree, what you say may be vaild in certain respects, yadda, yadda, yadda? If we all had more tolerance, debates would be far less...harmful...than they are now.

Quote:
No one in the ACLU, to my knowledge, is saying freedom of speech should be curbed concerned gay rights. Attack gays all you want.
I'm talking about "silencing". There is a big difference. The ACLU wants to change the laws so that gay marriage occurs, and want to do so despite the voices. What's the point of freedom of speech if the ACLU just going to snidely say, "We're going to defend your right to say it, but you're just wrong." What's the point of freedom of speech if you can't effect the government's descion, and the government does do gay marriage, overriding your concerns, overriding your voices, because you are "lunatical", not respecting of "civil liberties"? Do you know how alienating it is to have someone call you a "nut"? I'd call it the equivilant of punching someone in the nose.

It's de facto censorship, cursing the enemy, rather than de jure. The only civil liberty I care about is Freedom of Speech, and as long as the ACLU claims to be a defender of civil liberties and does what it does, it can help to silence certain "free speech".

Quote:
What I'm saying is that if your religion goes against civil liberties, then the ACLU's agenda will not coincide with it. No one's saying you can't preach it. Again, attack gays all you want, I can't keep you. We both live in free nations.
But by ridiculing that religion's agenda about going against civil liberties, you are restricting that civil liberty of the right to speak. The reason being, if you succed in terming that religion intolerant, less people will listen to it, and therefore, you are de facto censoring it.

The ACLU claims to be the union that support civil liberties, and using that position, it can promote beliefs, claiming that they fall under the banner of civil liberties. This is fine. When they start saying that those who are against the ACLU are against civil liberties, and that speaking out against civil liberties make you anti-"civil liberties", well, that's the punch to the nose.

Quote:
How is allowing them to meet on bases 'government sponsorship'?

And why isn't the ACLU going after Muslim organizations that meet on bases, which routinely discriminate by excluding women or require non-Muslims to pray to Allah? It's very much a double standard.
Uh. To be ACLU's advocate...and maybe trying to explain their actions...

You see, the same reason the ACLU is not going after Muslim organizations that meet on bases is the same reason the ACLU is not going around after (many) non-Muslim organizations. Because if a religious organization meets on that base, suppressing that religion would be against the 1st Amendmnet. Everyone can go where they please, if they have proper government clearance.

However, if said organization however have some oath that advocates worship of God, like the Boy Scouts, then it must not be premissable, due to the fact that it is an endorsement of the Boy Scouts and therefore is not premissable.

However, all the Muslim organizations I went to (and therefore, hopefully, all Muslim organizations in general) do not have such an oath. Due to the fact that Muslim organizations, are, by definition, Muslim, and that Muslims have to actually make a declaration (NOT an Oath) that they believe in Islam to join up with Islam, this means that it does not advocate the worship of God at all. I believe the ACLU was only concerned with that Boy Scout's Oath, and had the Boy Scouts took away that Oath, then they would be allowed to go in.

The 1st Amendment allows for the freedom of people to join together in groups. For example, a Men's Club is allowed to say: "Only Men". Otherwise, the group would disenigrate. The freedom to assembly allows for the freedom to exclude, but they are limits. Those limits are in the courts, but I think it is fair to say that Muslim organizations are allowed to exclude non-Muslims.

As for the talking about the discrimnation charge, well, I'm not so sure. For the most part, the seperation of man and woman is merely part of the culture (which is quite similar around the world), and that Non-Muslims don't have to pray along with Muslims. I think the Non-Muslims do that just to be friendly.

Quote:
If the people do something against the constitution, it's still against the constitution. If the will of the people constitutes religious law, then it should not be made law.
It leads to a question...why does the Consitution needs to continue to operate if the actual founders and backers of the Consitution (the people) do not want it anymore? What's make the Consitution have any power to begin with?

Inherent human rights? Well, it was because the human mob who disliked the British Consitution decided to rebel and create the USA, so even in that case, it was because the majority of the people were upset at society, and therefore, rebelled. It's not some mystical power that grants us rights, it's the screams, protest marches, and gunfire of the human race that provides rights.

If nobody likes the Consitution anymore, then should the Consitution be trashed? Granted, nobody here is saying or calling that, least of all Jae, but...I just wonder.


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Originally Posted by The Onion
"The Cambodian government has established many exciting-sounding 're-education camps' where both intellectuals and everyday citizens can be sent at any time," Day said. Well, we at Barnes & Noble have always supported re-education in America, and we intend to extend this policy to our new customers." For every hardcover book sold, Barnes & Noble will donate a dollar to the Cambodian government to help re-educate local children.
Full Article Here

Last edited by SilentScope001; 05-18-2007 at 12:39 PM.
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Old 05-18-2007, 12:38 PM   #34
GarfieldJL
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Okay I decided to use google to find stuff yes all of the sources are Conservative, why cause the left wing media will not report on the ACLU because they are staunch supporters of the ACLU. This is just web sites, I've loaned a few books out to people that have more incidents.

http://www.dianedew.com/aclu.htm
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/arti...3/172143.shtml
http://www.traditionalvalues.org/pdf_files/ACLU.pdf


http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1831933/posts
http://www.legion.org/?content=aclu_magarticle


------------------
going to try to find the case referred here http://jacklewis.net/weblog/archives...ignores_sc.php


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Old 05-18-2007, 12:41 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Civil Rights are personal, which means it is my right to say anything I so desire, as long as it conforms to laws.

But they are attacking my own expression of civil rights, by calling my use of it wrong, since I am going against other people's civil liberties. They call me intolerant. They will defend to the death my right to say it, and yet they will also defend to the death their right to have their view get government support, because their view is the "correct" one.
Their view is the one that does not infringe on other's rights. It's pretty clear why this is important in a country like the US, where not everyone is concerned about who marries whom. The view that should get government support is the one that protects the rights of EVERYONE under the aegis of the government, and not only those groups favored by the majority.

Quote:
I'm talking about "silencing". There is a big difference. The ACLU wants to change the laws so that gay marriage occurs, and want to do so despite the voices. What's the point of freedom of speech if the ACLU just going to snidely say, "We're going to defend your right to say it, but you're just wrong." What's the point of freedom of speech if you can't effect the government's descion, and the government does do gay marriage, overriding your concerns, overriding your voices, because you are "lunatical", not respecting of "civil liberties"? Do you know how alienating it is to have someone call you a "nut"? I'd call it the equivilant of punching someone in the nose.
The reason your opinion would be overridden is because you're infringing on other's rights. While you may enjoy the thought of all marriages being M-F, never divorcing, etc etc, you're only free to choose that for yourself. You can argue against their decisions all you like - that's the free speech part - but it's important to realize that it's their decision to make.

Quote:
But by ridiculing that religion's agenda about going against civil liberties, you are restricting that civil liberty of the right to speak. The reason being, if you succed in terming that religion intolerant, less people will listen to it, and therefore, you are de facto censoring it.
If it's intolerant, then it is. If free people don't like intolerance, then they don't like it. Seems to me that's religion's problem, not the ACLU's. Religion has a decision to make - cater to what people want, or do what they are going to regardless of popular support. If they choose the second, they lose support. Interesting how that happens, but hardly the fault of the ACLU.

Quote:
The ACLU claims to be the union that support civil liberties, and using that position, it can promote beliefs, claiming that they fall under the banner of civil liberties. This is fine. When they start saying that those who are against the ACLU are against civil liberties, and that speaking out against civil liberties make you anti-"civil liberties", well, that's the punch to the nose.
When someone says something factual about a situation, it's still factual. If religion does not like being called "anti-civil liberties", then perhaps it should not be as discriminatory in its judgments. Any 'punch in the nose' that results is entirely the fault of those who are unwilling to face the consequences of their own actions.


"Words are deeds." - Wittgenstein
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Old 05-18-2007, 12:44 PM   #36
Achilles
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
I'm zipping through this because I have a meeting to go to that will last all morning....
Those meetings are my favorite

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
I gave fair warning on that, Achilles, and said it was more important for the cases themselves. My point was to show multiple cases where the ACLU has gone after Christians.
But it didn't do that...at all. All that source did was muddy the water with falsehoods and try to spin the facts in a way to make the ACLU appear to do the things you were saying it was doing.

I suppose that no one forced me to do the fact-finding for that article, but I did feel it was necessary. And it did take about an hour. So an hour of my time went into (hopefully) setting the record straight because you made the choice to use a blantantly anti-ACLU source.

I cannot speak with any degree of certainty about your intentions, but I will point out that according to Kant and the categorical imperative, attempting to intentionally decieve another person (using spun sources rather than facts to support a position perhaps) is considered unethical. And since ethics is the system of morals, one could say that using poor quality sources isn't only unethical, but immoral as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
The people who elected the legislators or voted for the marriage amendments.
Exactly. And who speaks for the little guy when the voting majority is in the wrong? That was my whole point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
You may have a point on pro-Christian vs. just conservative, however.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
BTW, 'conservative' is NOT a pejorative.
Certainly it is not. In fact I consider myself conservative in many regards (in a classical, non "neo" way), so it would be hypocritical of me to use it in such a way. I will point out that the term is used was "neo-conservative" and that term I use interchangeably as a pejorative/non-pejorative, but I think you already knew that

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
How is allowing them to meet on bases 'government sponsorship'?
And why isn't the ACLU going after Muslim organizations that meet on bases, which routinely discriminate by excluding women or require non-Muslims to pray to Allah? It's very much a double standard.
Did you click (and read) the link or did you just look at the section I quoted? You still seems to be operating from the "only using the bases as a meeting place" sentiment from your source while ignoring all of this:

Quote:
Under the terms of today's settlement, the Defense Department has 60 days to issue a statement to U.S. defense facilities and military bases across the world making clear that Defense officials may not sponsor Boy Scout organizations. The settlement, however, does not prohibit off-duty government employees from sponsoring Boy Scout troops on their own time. The Boy Scouts will still also have access to any military facilities that are currently made available to other non-governmental organizations.

"It is critical that the Pentagon send this very clear signal to its units across the globe to ensure that government officials are not engaged in religious discrimination in their official capacity," said Charles Peters of the Chicago law firm Schiff Hardin who assisted the ACLU of Illinois in the lawsuit.

The federal court in Chicago still must decide whether the Defense Department and the Department of Housing and Urban Development can spend millions of taxpayer dollars to support Boy Scout units that practice religious discrimination and require religious oaths. The ACLU of Illinois has raised concern, for example, about the Pentagon's handpicking the Boy Scouts of America - and no other organization - for the expenditure of an average of $2 million each year to support the national Boy Scout Jamboree. A decision on this and other issues is pending.
As for the Muslim part of your comment, I guess I would have to know more before I could speak intelligently on the matter. Perhaps it has something to do with "other military facilities made available to other non-governmental organizations" thing? Dunno.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
Sheesh. Like a left-wing source is ever going to consider the possibility that the ACLU is not fair in the application of its own standards. What other sources am I supposed to use? Being a conservative source does not automatically make it a poor source, any more than being a liberal source makes it a poor source.
Indeed spin goes both ways. I think this goes back to my request for citation standards.

This diatribe is largely a red herring, Jae. You used a source that was blantantly conservative and had a blatantly conservative spin. It is an unfortanately reality that the "if not conservative than automatically liberal" doctrine appears to be so prevalent amongst conservatives.

Perhaps you could try a non-biased source that has facts and/or both sides of an issue. Yes, you have to dig a little for them and sometimes you can't find one (aforementioned case 4 for example). However I think you damage your credibility with the sources that you use and inadvertently weaken the cause you try to defend. It may be that there are legitimate arguments that support your point, but it's going to be difficult for your readers to see that if all they are pointed towards are sources that have to lie or cheat to make their point. Pretty soon no one listens because your cause is the one known as those "lying-cheating guys" (not you specifically, your sources).

The unfortanate thing about your sources is that the speak a great deal about how they interpret events, but very little about the facts of the events themselves. I don't know how one convinces themselves that this is journalism while not simultaneously conceding to let others do their thinking for them. This is general statement and is not necessarily directed at you specifically.

As for the general nature of liberal sources, all I can tell you is that I don't use them. I don't doubt for a second that you won't disagree, but before you do I'll draw your attention once more to the "not conservative = liberal" doctrine that I mentioned earlier. I do so to point out that it could be you view my sources as "liberal" because they don't agree with you viewpoints, not because they actually are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
The fact is that these men would have court-appointed representation and the ACLU did not have to go rushing in to defend molesters. I _used_ to be in favor of the ACLU's ideals in defending free speech. I cannot support an organization that condones the actions of child molesters. You're right--that's not an exclusively Christian issue. It should be a concern of anyone who finds child sexual abuse abhorrent.
Again, I think you missed my point.
You say, "rushing in to defend child molestors" while what I said was "rushing in to defend free speech". Important distinction Jae. Furthermore, I can only assume that you didn't take the time to click the link (or visit the ACLU site yourself at another time) to see that the ACLU does not condone the actions of the child molestors. However you continue to state that they do without having the facts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
Jae's rule on forming policy: Never legislate what you can't enforce.

There's no way to enforce any kind of standard other than maybe snipping the source. To be honest, I just don't have the time to track down and evaluate every single source cited, read it, and make a determination on its quality, and my idea of quality of ultra-liberal sources is likely different from yours.
I'm a member of several other forums where standards for sources exist (you can get banned for repeatedly posting without citing sources, etc). No one is asking the moderators to chase down every source. It doesn't take more than a few seconds to click on a link and recognize bias (if it is present). This is even easier if you set expectations ahead of time (you're less likely to have to chase something down if you can automatically see that it doesn't comply with the standards in the first place). So "Never legislate what you can't enforce" doesn't hold water for several reasons. If this is something that the moderating staff isn't interested in taking on that's one thing, and I'll have to live with that, but calling it impossible just isn't true.
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Old 05-18-2007, 12:50 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GarfieldJL
*list of websites*
So I couldn't find a single instance in any one of those websites that you linked to where the ACLU was being particularly anti-christian. Perhaps I am missing something?



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Old 05-18-2007, 12:59 PM   #38
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Quote:
“If the ACLU wins this one, they’re going to go after all these monuments (including Arlington and Gettysburg),” said Charles LiMandri, a San Diego attorney who has led efforts to bring the memorial under federal jurisdiction. “A lot of them have either religious symbols, text or some type of religious reference on them in every state in the union, and they’re all going to be at risk.
http://www.alainsnewsletter.com/s/spip.php?breve214


Quote:
A federal judge judge has now upheld the constitutionality of an intensive three-week course in California government schools that requires children to choose a Muslim name, wear Islamic garb, memorize verses from the Koraan, pray to Allah, play “jihad games, and simulate worship activities related to the Five Pillars of Islam.”
Quote:
But hasn't American Civil Liberties Union lectured us that religious instruction in school violates what it describes as “separation of church and state” (a phrase that appears nowhere in the U.S. Constitution)? Read on. That injunction seems to depend on which religion is involved.


The guidelines in ACLU's document is in effect a warning (some would say an implied threat) to schools as to how they can avoid legal challenges from the same ACLU on church/state issues in the classroom.
-- http://www.newsmax.com/archives/arti...3/172143.shtml


Seems to me like they're catering to radical Islam.
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Old 05-18-2007, 01:02 PM   #39
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Their view is the one that does not infringe on other's rights. It's pretty clear why this is important in a country like the US, where not everyone is concerned about who marries whom. The view that should get government support is the one that protects the rights of EVERYONE under the aegis of the government, and not only those groups favored by the majority.
But by passing the laws that someone disagrees with, calling them anti-civil liberty and evil, you are disrespecting their right to speak out against the calls, you are silencing them.

Quote:
The reason your opinion would be overridden is because you're infringing on other's rights. While you may enjoy the thought of all marriages being M-F, never divorcing, etc etc, you're only free to choose that for yourself. You can argue against their decisions all you like - that's the free speech part - but it's important to realize that it's their decision to make.
How can I argue if the ACLU laugh at me and term intolerant?

In this case, I'm worried about protecting my own right, the right to criticize and the right to have my viewpoint expressed, and the right to have my viewpoint help to influence the desicions the government. Such a branding of intolerance is wrong.

(Also a clarification: I do support the ACLU's aims, somewhat. What I dislike is their attempt to claim that they are correct, and thereby making Chrisitans pretty mad.)

Quote:
If it's intolerant, then it is. If free people don't like intolerance, then they don't like it. Seems to me that's religion's problem, not the ACLU's. Religion has a decision to make - cater to what people want, or do what they are going to regardless of popular support. If they choose the second, they lose support. Interesting how that happens, but hardly the fault of the ACLU.
1) People must be tolerant towards other people. If they are intolerant, then those people are not free, regardless of what ideology they claim to be, regardless of whatever civil liberties they are upholading. Without tolerance, society is dead. Tolerance is the only thing that stands between open war between the Right and the Left, and we need it now, more than ever. Without tolerance, free speech cannot happen. To me, Free Speech is the most important civil right ever...

If the ACLU is going to remain intolerant, then so be it. It just lost all support from me.

2)
Quote:
Originally Posted by SD
If the people do something against the constitution, it's still against the constitution. If the will of the people constitutes religious law, then it should not be made law.
So, if you succed in making the minority for the view of Jae, then your view should be law and religion must change. If the majority is okay for Jae's view, then your view should be law anyway, and prehaps religion must change as well.

Your view should be law, regardless of whatever the people say. This is quite similar to fanatics of religious sects, who claim that their country should follow whatever some artibrary being or standard says, regardless of what the people want. In fact, it is some artibrary being or standard that you are using. Is that standard vaild? I don't know, but it's quite artibrary...and therefore, there needs to be some backing for that standard. That backing should be the people.

America is a democracy. The people choose. Not the ACLU. Not Falwell. And certainally not me. They must have the right to choose, to decide for themselves what is right, otherwise this turns into a tyranny. And if that tyranny is led by the ACLU or Falwell's followers, you can bet I'd be mad. It is the people who decide the law, not YOU.

Quote:
When someone says something factual about a situation, it's still factual. If religion does not like being called "anti-civil liberties", then perhaps it should not be as discriminatory in its judgments. Any 'punch in the nose' that results is entirely the fault of those who are unwilling to face the consequences of their own actions.
It's not factual, it's opinonated. You presupposes that there are civil liberties, and that they should be protected, and that religion disagrees with your inteprertion of civil liberties, and so religion is steppping on civil liberties, and therefore, you can make that statement and therefore punch my nose.

It's a slur, and it's a slur that says, "Since these people are lunatics, don't listen to them. Listen to me." And it's a very cursing and evil slur, and it acts as a silencing agnet, to silence debate, and to make people agree with you. You are attacking the man, and you are attempting to stop my right to express my views.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Onion
"The Cambodian government has established many exciting-sounding 're-education camps' where both intellectuals and everyday citizens can be sent at any time," Day said. Well, we at Barnes & Noble have always supported re-education in America, and we intend to extend this policy to our new customers." For every hardcover book sold, Barnes & Noble will donate a dollar to the Cambodian government to help re-educate local children.
Full Article Here
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Old 05-18-2007, 01:21 PM   #40
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I've noticed that usually the most intolerant people were those that spout off about how tolerant they are and how everyone should be more tolerant.
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