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Old 03-05-2008, 12:50 AM   #1
Jvstice
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Teenage girls to be sterilized in Britain?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...icle_id=514542


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Old 03-05-2008, 12:57 AM   #2
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An excellent idea. I hope this idea carries over to many other countries. This will very likely help lower abortion rates... At least some country is doing something about this problem.


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Old 03-05-2008, 01:13 AM   #3
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Something about the way that entire article was written makes me wonder how serious a publication that is.

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Old 03-05-2008, 01:20 AM   #4
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I think that better education would be more effective then sterilization. Since girls should know from a very young age to wear a condom or take the pill. Sterilization should only be a last resort. Because the girls know that they aren't going to get pregnant when they are teenagers. But they don't know life skills that could be important when they are adults and they get pregnant when they are in college or working 10 hours a day. Or even worse they continue to do unprotected sex without thinking of the dangers of pregnancy and contract an STD (Or STI as they are called now). With better education the girls can actually learn the dangers of pregnancy.


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Old 03-05-2008, 01:23 AM   #5
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Quote:
Because the girls know that they aren't going to get pregnant when they are teenagers.
Huh? Girls can go through puberty as young as 8 (in rare cases). As soon as they do they are physically capable of becoming pregnant.

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Old 03-05-2008, 01:25 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcesious
An excellent idea. I hope this idea carries over to many other countries. This will very likely help lower abortion rates... At least some country is doing something about this problem.
You're bloody kidding me right? Personal liberties be damned so the government can play chaperone to teenage girls without their consent? What's next, mandating that everyone must have a state-approved official holding your hands as you cross the street to ensure not only your safety, but that you also do not jaywalk? Ludicrous.

I should also point out that that link isn't so much an article reporting on some sort of scientific discovery, but more a self-righteous editorial rant that is supremely flawed in several lines of reasoning. The most obvious and glaring one is if teenage girls were sterilized for five or so years, wouldn't that make them more likely to go out and be promiscuous? Removing the fear of being pregnant and all the challenges it presents would be completely and utterly stupid. If the author of the article wants to be the moral police, then surely there are better avenues to advocate than this ridiculous idea.




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Old 03-05-2008, 01:26 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by InyriForge
Huh? Girls can go through puberty as young as 8 (in rare cases). As soon as they do they are physically capable of becoming pregnant.
I am talking about the side effects of sterilization. Plus this is an excellent example of why education at a younger age is more effective.


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Old 03-05-2008, 01:31 AM   #8
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Maybe parents should start parenting. I think that would solve a lot of problems.

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Old 03-05-2008, 03:29 AM   #9
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Aren't you all forgetting that this might increase the number of rapes?

And mentioned in the above posts, this will increase under age sex.

Bad idea, whoever thought of it should be ashamed of themselves.
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Old 03-05-2008, 03:40 AM   #10
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Why would it affect the number of rapes in any way? I don't think the rapists of the world are thinking 'omg must not rape, might have to pay child support!'

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Old 03-05-2008, 03:54 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by DarthJebus05
Aren't you all forgetting that this might increase the number of rapes?
Um, no. Generally rapists are more concerned about being caught than they are on making child support payments.

(Edit: Damn you, Inyri! Use my remarks, will you...)

I seriously doubt this would impact the number of rapes one way or another. They're rarely even done for sexual reasons in the first place.

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Originally Posted by DarthJebus05
Bad idea, whoever thought of it should be ashamed of themselves.
What? You think in decades where teen sex has become increasingly problematic that this person was the only one to propose mandatory sterilization?


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Old 03-05-2008, 03:55 AM   #12
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I agree with Inyri. It won't increase rapes. It will however cause a larger number of teens to feel more free about sex. This may in fact increase STD transmission. That is a far worse problem in my estimation. Lower fear of pregnancy, increased sexual activity, lower reason for protection, increased spread of STD's.

[sarcasm]Oh yes this is a great idea, I think every country should get behind this[/sarcasm]
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Old 03-05-2008, 04:18 AM   #13
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The most obvious and glaring one is if teenage girls were sterilized for five or so years, wouldn't that make them more likely to go out and be promiscuous?
Only fallacious if you disregard her observation that they're doing it anyway w/o the benefit of sterilization, thus there's likely to be no/little impact on the desire to pursue recreational sex in the first place. However, I would tend to agree that if you remove the negative incentives for doing things, people are less likely to be deterred from trying them. Still, given the number of girls/young women having babies they can't support financially (nevermind emotionally), a temporary sterilization req for qualifying for govt aide is, in our increasingly eroticized and secular society, a reasonable step. No matter how much education you give people, there are always going to be those that disregard it on purpose or in the heat of the moment. Frankly, if you can't keep your legs closed, I see no reason I should have to provide money to support your child (or subsidize your abortion for that matter) through my taxes. Frankly, this problem doesn't lend itself to simple solutions. Merely saying that parents should exercise more parental responsibility is as naive as saying "just say no" will stop it. Children, especially by the time they are capable of becoming sexually active, probably have as much or more outside influence impacting their decision making as any input they get from their parents.

Quote:
What? You think in decades where teen sex has become increasingly problematic that this person was the only one to propose mandatory sterilization?
Wasn't there talk of putting welfare mothers on Norplant in the not too distant past?


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Old 03-05-2008, 04:31 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InyriForge
Something about the way that entire article was written makes me wonder how serious a publication that is.
The Mail is a major national newspaper in the UK, owned by Rupert Murdoch's News Corp.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogue Nine
The most obvious and glaring one is if teenage girls were sterilized for five or so years, wouldn't that make them more likely to go out and be promiscuous?
Rofl, exactly.

In all honesty... I'm neither a teenager or a girl, but if I was sterile I would imagine I'd loosen up some myself... STDs be damned.


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Old 03-05-2008, 04:48 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcesious
An excellent idea. I hope this idea carries over to many other countries. This will very likely help lower abortion rates... At least some country is doing something about this problem.
Riiiiiiiiiiiiight

Proper sex-education would be far more effective.

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Old 03-05-2008, 05:30 AM   #16
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Something about the way that entire article was written makes me wonder how serious a publication that is.
The Mail is traditionally meant to be read by wives of people who read the Times.

More generally, it's a paranoid joke which no-one of middling intelligence or above reads.

It's also significant to note that this suggestion comes from the Cabinet Nobody with the silliest name.

In all seriousness, if we paid attention to every rubbish or ridiculous idea that the Blair/Brown government came up with, we'd be up to our elbows in 'Huh?'s.

Just look at the idea that we could abolish the Lord Chancellor....



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Old 03-05-2008, 05:51 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Balderdash
The Mail is a major national newspaper in the UK, owned by Rupert Murdoch's News Corp.
And for those that are not up to speed on this, Its the same company that spawned Fox News Channel, and it's major affiliate is SkyNews.

I want to say they also happen to be the ones that own "Weekly World News" but I may be wrong on that. I know they do own a tabloid with that reputation though.
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Old 03-05-2008, 09:20 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RakataDark
With better education the girls can actually learn the dangers of pregnancy.
OK, so now I'm curious. What dangers?


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Old 03-05-2008, 09:24 AM   #19
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I don't believe i've embarrassed myself in any way, those of you who thought my reaction was bad. If these girls won't learn to control themselves, even after plenty of sex-ed, then someone should take charge and stop the problem. This is for teenage girls, not adult women. The rights of children and teenagwers are different than the rights of adults. Sex-ed will help, but there's bound to be tons of teenage girls who simply don't care and aren't going to be careful. This is not immoralyl takign away their rights- Teenage girls aren't even physically meant to have chilren properly at their age! Yes, the have puberty in teenage years, which allows them to get pregnant, but their body is not fully developed enough to have the pregnancy correctly. miscarries, STI's, etc, etc, happen with teenage pregnancy much more often than with adults. This problem won't go away by simply having more sex-ed. It's goign to keep happening. More abortions, more ruined and messed lives because teenage girls weren't careful, unless if soemthing is done. Yes, sterilization isn't perfected yet though, so this idea shoudln't be done until it is so that the side-effects of it removed.


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Old 03-05-2008, 09:45 AM   #20
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To those who somehow think this is a 'good idea':

1. Tell me exactly how UK will pay for the sterilization.
2. Why not boys? Why only girls?
3. Why up to 17?
4. What about girls who get adverse side-effects because of sterilization?
5. Sterlization means that people will be less likely to use safe sex. They're sterilized, right? So when the sterlization wears off, they will not be able to do safe sex, meaning teenage pregenacy may increase.
6. Speaking of 'safe sex', what about STDs?
7. What about female monks? Why do they need to be sterilized if they already don't like sex?
8. What if I want to have a baby?

EDIT:
9. Have you adequatly learnt why previous 'comulsory sterilization' programs failed, and how best you can solve the errors associated with those programs?


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Old 03-05-2008, 09:56 AM   #21
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What happened to the males being responsible, too? They can't bother themselves to put on a condom? Or the boys don't care about it because after one or a few nights they're going to move on to someone else, and the gov't can take care of the girl if she happens to get pregnant so they don't have to?

It takes two to tango. The chance of the girl getting pregnant drops dramatically if the boy takes some responsibility for preventing pregnancy, too. If you're going to sterilize girls (which I think is silly), then you should give all the guys a little snip, too--after all, it's now reversible.


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Old 03-05-2008, 10:12 AM   #22
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What a sexist article >.>

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It was a moral issue but the stigma was born out of necessity: a desperate attempt to stop girls from doing what came naturally until a father and a home could be provided.
Quote:
Boys have always wanted to have sex and notch up "scores" on the bedpost.
So it's ok for the boys to boink around as much as they want, since they won't be the ones getting pregnant? :/

@Arc, make the teenage boys control *their* raging hormones, then you can comment all you want about the girls. Why don't we just sterilize all the randy males around, hm? After all, lonely ovums (read:eggs) won't produce any babies>.>



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Old 03-05-2008, 10:49 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Ray Jones
OK, so now I'm curious. What dangers?
There are a lot of dangers with childbirth. Firstly the fact that you could die with child birth. The baby could come out feet first. They may have to cut you open to get the baby out. Plus the fact that is all one of the most painful things a human being can go through


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Old 03-05-2008, 11:07 AM   #24
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The risk of death in pregnancy/childbirth for a teen is really quite low. The risk of a breech birth is very low, and it's easy to detect so that the baby can either be turned around or mom given a c-section to prevent potential complications. I've had 2 c-sections, and while it's not on my top ten list of favorite things to do and it is major surgery, it's not like I didn't have anesthesia when they 'cut me open to get the baby out'. The anesthesiologists were all very vigilant in making sure any pain or problems were prevented in the first place or dealt with immediately.

Yes, childbirth hurts, but you know, we can deal with that, too. Thank God for epidurals.


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Old 03-05-2008, 11:28 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RakataDark
There are a lot of dangers with childbirth. Firstly the fact that you could die with child birth. The baby could come out feet first. They may have to cut you open to get the baby out. Plus the fact that is all one of the most painful things a human being can go through
You know, that was a rather rhetorical question. Also, those things you list are dangers of a birth, not pregnancy.

Plus, I'd blatantly state that only 0.1% percent, if at all, of the abortions around the world happen due to "the dangers" coming with the birth. Now refocus that on teenage abortion and we are on par with *zero* percent.


And yes, a birth is painful, but painfulness is hardly a danger.


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Old 03-05-2008, 01:34 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcesious
Teenage girls aren't even physically meant to have chilren properly at their age! Yes, the have puberty in teenage years, which allows them to get pregnant, but their body is not fully developed enough to have the pregnancy correctly.
Their body wouldn't go through puberty if it wasn't ready for the consequences. Puberty happens because the body is ready, not for ****s and giggles.

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Yes, sterilization isn't perfected yet though, so this idea shoudln't be done until it is so that the side-effects of it removed.
So I take it since you're so pro-sterilization you'd be willing to be sterilized as well? Or are you stuck in the 1950's still?

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Old 03-05-2008, 01:36 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Arcesious
An excellent idea. I hope this idea carries over to many other countries. This will very likely help lower abortion rates... At least some country is doing something about this problem.
Will it? Maybe it will just postpone them. Just because a woman is 20 instead of 17 doesn't mean they still WANT a child. Lets say this plan went into action. Well, now you're teaching girls that from 12 to 17 they're sterile. What's the upside to no babies when having sex? oh, more sex! I know if I couldn't get anyone pregnant I'd probly be having loads of sex. Which means more STD transmission, which IMO, is FAR worse than abortions. I mean, aside from the fact that this is punishing all girls for the actions of a few(yes, a FEW), the results of "temporary" sterilization could be permanent sterilization.

Yes, these systems are NOT as safe as they're made out to be, women who "wear" them long enough can be made permanently sterile.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Totenkopf
Only fallacious if you disregard her observation that they're doing it anyway w/o the benefit of sterilization, thus there's likely to be no/little impact on the desire to pursue recreational sex in the first place.
Like I said about punishing those who did nothing "wrong", the reason it WILL increase sex is because girls who normally wouldn't have sex due to fear of babies would be much more likly to do so. Some girls are having a lot of sex anyway, not all of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcesious
This is for teenage girls, not adult women. The rights of children and teenagwers are different than the rights of adults.
Which is really the clincher isn't it? People under 18 aren't people, they're property. I mean, how can we even claim to care about the dying babies in Uganda or some other god-forsaken nation when we're ready and willing to treat our OWN children like they aren't real people?

I'm no fan of teen pregnancy, but I mean, damn, show a little respect, I was those ages once, and while I'm not a girl, as others have pointed out, it takes two to tango. Girls don't just "get pregnant", the sperm must merge with a readied ova to produce a viable fertilized egg. Which means MEN are involved in the process.

Girls will have no(or much less) problem keeping their legs shut, as someone phrased it, if we get guys to stop asking them to spread 'em.

On a final note, yes, actually, most girls can go through pregnancy just fine from ages 15 and up. Historically it was actually much lower, where 18 made you an old woman, so girls could give birth at much younger ages. That has somewhat faded in modern times, though it often feels like it's moving back.

the whole idea is disgusting, if primarily just for human rights reasons.


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Old 03-05-2008, 01:51 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcesious
An excellent idea. I hope this idea carries over to many other countries. This will very likely help lower abortion rates... At least some country is doing something about this problem.
IMO this is far more worse then abortion...

This taking away girls/women deam to EVER have a child.

You might view abortion as some kind of murder, but if a girl/women is aware she can't support the child decently...

Well this just IMO, but I found this... well disturbing.

Its just far more radicale to take away the whole process of procreation then welll cut if off in progress.

Really... disturbing


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Old 03-05-2008, 01:51 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Arcesious
If these girls won't learn to control themselves, even after plenty of sex-ed, then someone should take charge and stop the problem.
What about the males' responsibility? As far as I know it takes a woman and a man to make a baby...

I can't believe we are even discussing such this. When I read the article I wasn't even sure if it was meant to be serious or not. It's a disgusting proposition.
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Old 03-05-2008, 02:20 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth333
What about the males' responsibility? As far as I know it takes a woman and a man to make a baby...

I can't believe we are even discussing such this. When I read the article I wasn't even sure if it was meant to be serious or not. It's a disgusting proposition.
Agreed, why actually girls, they could easly take the man and cuts his... b**** off, it would be the same.


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Old 03-05-2008, 02:34 PM   #31
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I agree that unwanted Pregnancy and underage sex needs to drop, but the method is ridicules, I think there saying 12-17 because it's ILLEGAL to have sex, never mind have children until your 16


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Old 03-05-2008, 03:11 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by InyriForge
Something about the way that entire article was written makes me wonder how serious a publication that is.
The Daily Mail is a joke. Unfortunately it represents the part of the electorate that parties are most interested in.

Headlines range from "Immigration to cause fall in house prices" to "Drop in house prices may result in drop in house prices."

I still find it depressing that the father of modern liberty and liberalism comes from the same country as the Daily Heil.

InSid's already made reference to it but an expansive guide to British newspapers comes from Yes, Prime Minister - a sitcom about British politics that regardless of its age always seems to contain relevant criticism of any and all governments .

Prime Minister Hacker: I know exactly who reads the papers: The Daily Mirror is read by people who think they run the country; The Guardian is read by people who think they ought to run the country; The Times is read by people who actually do run the country; The Daily Mail is read by the wives of the people who run the country; The Financial Times is read by people who own the country; The Morning Star is read by people who think the country ought to be run by another country*; and The Daily Telegraph is read by people who think it is.
Sir Humphrey: Prime Minister, what about the people who read The Sun?
Bernard Woolley: Sun readers don't care who runs the country, as long as she's got big tits.

*The USSR, for clarity
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Old 03-05-2008, 03:22 PM   #33
Totenkopf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WR
Quote:
Originally Posted by Totenkopf
Only fallacious if you disregard her observation that they're doing it anyway w/o the benefit of sterilization, thus there's likely to be no/little impact on the desire to pursue recreational sex in the first place.

Like I said about punishing those who did nothing "wrong", the reason it WILL increase sex is because girls who normally wouldn't have sex due to fear of babies would be much more likly to do so. Some girls are having a lot of sex anyway, not all of them.
Problem is, any guess as to the actual amount of any increase is sheer speculation. If a lot of "underage" girls are having sex now for recreational purposes, there is no actual way to know if the rest of them are holding off b/c they value their virginity, have more foresight, family pressures, ad nauseam. She, too, is also guilty of speculating due to her assumption about the actual percentage of girls "doing it" at the moment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavlos
Prime Minister Hacker: I know exactly who reads the papers: The Daily Mirror is read by people who think they run the country; The Guardian is read by people who think they ought to run the country; The Times is read by people who actually do run the country; The Daily Mail is read by the wives of the people who run the country; The Financial Times is read by people who own the country; The Morning Star is read by people who think the country ought to be run by another country*; and The Daily Telegraph is read by people who think it is.
Sir Humphrey: Prime Minister, what about the people who read The Sun?
Bernard Woolley: Sun readers don't care who runs the country, as long as she's got big tits.

Too funny. Gotta love cynical humor.


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Old 03-05-2008, 04:32 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by adamqd
I agree that unwanted Pregnancy and underage sex needs to drop, but the method is ridicules, I think there saying 12-17 because it's ILLEGAL to have sex, never mind have children until your 16
really? It's perfectly legal here in the states so long as you're within 3 years of age and one of you isn't over 18(in cali), other states have lower ages.


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Old 03-05-2008, 04:38 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adamqd
I agree that unwanted Pregnancy and underage sex needs to drop, but the method is ridicules, I think there saying 12-17 because it's ILLEGAL to have sex, never mind have children until your 16
Every jurisdiction has its own laws so that is not case everywhere. Besides, as to the age of consent to sexual relationships it varies greatly from country to country (and I think in the US it's a state thing). Dunno how accurate it is but this page should give you an idea: http://www.ageofconsent.com/ageofconsent.htm

In Canada it can go as young as 12 yrs old if the other person is no more than 2yrs older.
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Old 03-05-2008, 09:23 PM   #36
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All this talk of sterilizing girls reminds me of the novels Brave New World and 1984.
I don't know why....


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Old 03-05-2008, 09:46 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by InyriForge
Why would it affect the number of rapes in any way? I don't think the rapists of the world are thinking 'omg must not rape, might have to pay child support!'
Maybe I should have said: It will increase the number of unprotected rapes, thus meaning no condoms. If the rapist has a sexual transmitted disease, imagine the suffering the girl would go through.

There are more downsides to this idea than there are upsides.

:EDIT: Forgot to quote this:

Quote:
6. Speaking of 'safe sex', what about STDs?
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Old 03-05-2008, 10:33 PM   #38
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I doubt a Rapist is going to do protected sex. Just imagine a Rapist tying a girl to a chair and ready to do it when he suddenly says.

"Oh sorry I forgot to put a condom on." I think that Rapists are going to just do it quickly and quietly. They don't have to worry about pregnancy remember and I doubt they are going to care about STDS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Don*
All this talk of sterilizing girls reminds me of the novels Brave New World and 1984.
I don't know why....
Maybe because they both have big dystopian themes and Brave new world has Sterilization in it?


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Old 03-05-2008, 10:48 PM   #39
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Maybe because they both have big dystopian themes and Brave new world has Sterilization in it?
lol, well yes.
I was trying to be sarcastic.
It's so much harder to do sarcasm in a online forum.


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Old 03-05-2008, 11:02 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RakataDark
I doubt a Rapist is going to do protected sex. Just imagine a Rapist tying a girl to a chair and ready to do it when he suddenly says.

"Oh sorry I forgot to put a condom on." I think that Rapists are going to just do it quickly and quietly. They don't have to worry about pregnancy remember and I doubt they are going to care about STDS.
Lets say you're a rapist. And you might get aids from a girl you rape. Would you rape without a condom? I know I wouldn't, and I'm not saying I will or ever rape, but if I forgot 'my' condom, I would leave the girl there and go find another one after I got the condom first.
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