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Old 06-15-2007, 09:17 AM   #1
Faelion
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Lightbulb Balancing suggestions

Gunners
As a good gunner and saberist in OJP, I noticed that a Jedi class is far easier than a gunner in a long term sense. I play last man standing with bots now mostly, so as a gunner I end up doing very well on the first round, but that is when I have all of my ammunition.
The second round is okay, but I end up using nearly all of my ammo.
The third round, I'm out. I don't think gunners should have to die to keep playing (the alternative being to find a high camping place with a jetpack and shooting pistol shots down).
A jedi does not need to die. Grab a health pack and I am set.
So I wanted to think of a better way to handle the ammo situation. I came up with two decent options: An holdable recharger or ammo as another meter that recharges. It could still be the same ammo degeneration (rockets could drain one third, pistols drain none, and blasters drain 1/300). Then gunners could be lasting as a Jedi. The way it is, without some way to get ammo by yourself, it is bad to play against all jedi.

Dual sabers bug
When I throw a lightsaber in any stance but the dual stance, I have two sabers mind you, it turns off and the one in my left hand turns on. (I am holding force throw down, and the saber spins with no blade)

Force
When and why did you change it so you had to respawn to get new force powers? That was awesome! You didn't (I don't think you should) have to die to become stronger. If you think it gave too much power to change quickly, could you have Jedi meditate (taunt) for a set period to change them?

Oh one more, occassionally my saber falls into a pit (like t3_rift) when I throw it. Is it supposed to be lost forever? Realistic, yes; annoying, oh yeah.
It works either way for that one. Realism is good too.

Edit: Thought of one more. The NPC's aim is bad. If I stand there, they continuously aim over my left shoulder.

Edit: While I was playing a second ago, I found that the new jetpack is bugged (as cool as it may seem). I was able to do the dual saber jumping/spinning move (UP+JUMP+ATTACK1) and then activate my jetpack. I was able to recreate it, though a little hard, but I got a screenshot. (How do you put a screenshot in the forum anyway?)

So, any further suggestions or suggestions to my suggestions?


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Last edited by Faelion; 06-15-2007 at 09:45 AM.
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Old 06-15-2007, 10:12 AM   #2
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Playing LMS (which is awesome now that it works) as a gunner...after around the third round yeah your just pretty much totally outta ammo. And yeah when did you change where you didnt need to die? Now I don't play as sith often but when I do I noticed you have to die to get new force. So...make so we cant activate Jetpack while doing special moves...should be easy...i'll look into it.

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Old 06-15-2007, 12:18 PM   #3
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I don't like ammo regeneration, it was already established that inifnite ammo is bad. Although, for LMS, I've already suggested that EVERYBODY respawns, winners and losers, that way gunners spawn with all their ammo, and can apply their newly earned points without having to die.
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Old 06-15-2007, 02:06 PM   #4
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Bug ticket. bug ticket. bug ticket.


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Old 06-15-2007, 03:33 PM   #5
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Quote:
I've already suggested that EVERYBODY respawns, winners and losers
That will not work out in CTF. If you have the flag and kill the last person on the other team, then you'll lose a point! (or not gain one)

Edit: Can you make it wait for the living team to get a point from a capture?


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Old 06-15-2007, 04:17 PM   #6
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We could make it so that you only respawn with everyone else in non-CTF/Siege gametypes....


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Old 06-15-2007, 06:07 PM   #7
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Then there is still an ammo problem in CTF.


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Old 06-15-2007, 07:30 PM   #8
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Why not just get some more ammo when you kill somebody? It could be like they took it off their corpse. So what if jedis don't carry ammo, we'll just 'pretend' they do. Its more logical then ammo magically appearing from your FP!


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Old 06-15-2007, 07:37 PM   #9
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biggest reason im against a regenerating ammo is the we could have a gunner with unlimited rockets

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Old 06-15-2007, 08:00 PM   #10
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I understand that regenerating ammo is weird. I was just trying to come up with something. I believe that JRHockney*'s idea is best.


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Old 06-15-2007, 08:27 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRHockney*
Why not just get some more ammo when you kill somebody? It could be like they took it off their corpse. So what if jedis don't carry ammo, we'll just 'pretend' they do. Its more logical then ammo magically appearing from your FP!
Players can already get more ammo by picking up the weapons dropped by other players when they die.


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Old 06-15-2007, 10:07 PM   #12
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Quote:
razorace: Players can already get more ammo by picking up the weapons dropped by other players when they die.
True, however, the weapon they are currently using is all that is dropped. You only get that if you're lucky! If they have a pistol, saber, or melee you receive nothing at all.

Edit: Can you make them drop all of their weapons?


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Old 06-16-2007, 10:53 AM   #13
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What about using the ammo dispensers in CTF maps >_>
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Old 06-16-2007, 11:00 AM   #14
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jsut boots teh drop raet on epix geer LEROYO JEKNIONS

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Old 06-16-2007, 12:25 PM   #15
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I would vote for a single-use ammo pack that you purchase like any other weapon. Preferably, you'd access it like any other hand held object and once it's depleted you have to purchase another.

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Old 06-16-2007, 12:36 PM   #16
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If you purchased it like any other weapon you'd still need to die to receive another (though it was a decent idea, maybe if you didn't need to die it'd work out the best). Rechargers in a map would not be acceptable. "Custom maps" would have the problems then.


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Old 06-16-2007, 01:40 PM   #17
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You could make weapons using energetic-type ammo regenerable. No rockets nor nades.
A nice thing would be to have shield absorb energy from shots and saber attacks and reammo them.
One could also sacrifice shield to get additional charges to shoot.
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Old 06-16-2007, 01:51 PM   #18
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I'd just like to say that the reason why skills were altered so that they were given after death was to remove the exploitation of people getting skills that were not dynamic, then when spawning they would remove those skills that were not dynamic and choose the dynamic skills which would have them get the best of both worlds.


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Old 06-16-2007, 02:46 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackBaldy
I'd just like to say that the reason why skills were altered so that they were given after death was to remove the exploitation of people getting skills that were not dynamic, then when spawning they would remove those skills that were not dynamic and choose the dynamic skills which would have them get the best of both worlds.
Oh, that is understandable. There was no way around it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yango
You could make weapons using energetic-type ammo regenerable. No rockets nor nades.
A nice thing would be to have shield absorb energy from shots and saber attacks and reammo them.
One could also sacrifice shield to get additional charges to shoot.
That one sounds pretty good. No "unlimited rockets" factor. Though, I usually don't have any shields. (I like to spend my points)

If it did recharge that way, would power cells be charged?

Edit: maybe with enough good ideas we could have a poll.


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Old 06-16-2007, 04:22 PM   #20
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Yeah, you could buy every gun, spawn, then unbuy the guns and get all the force powers. There are ways around this but the easiest way was just to deactivate the dynamic process.

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Old 06-17-2007, 04:55 AM   #21
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Well, in fact I think it's a good idea to need to respawn to apply new points, so you can't make scripts to quickly change your powers an get full lightning, then press another button and get full absorb etc...
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Old 06-17-2007, 07:34 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheShaman
Well, in fact I think it's a good idea to need to respawn to apply new points, so you can't make scripts to quickly change your powers an get full lightning, then press another button and get full absorb etc...
There are lots of other ways we could've done this man, it's just that this was the easiest and least time consuming. If we ever get to discuss this part of the system again we should probably brainstorm about some kind of levelup mode that enables you to spend points, or get some kind of randomized spot in maps that'll allow you to buy and sell like some kind of bank thing. I don't know if that's possible without decompiling the map and blabla though.

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Old 06-17-2007, 10:58 AM   #23
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But this would take years to implement, and it would be pretty much like lugor on some aspects. I don't think it's a priority for OJP, since it's not absolutely necessary.
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Old 06-17-2007, 01:14 PM   #24
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Whether or not the force powers are changeable, gunners still have ammo problems. (aka: still weaker than Jedi)

Jedi have rechargable power. Mercs have flamethrowers, but they were weakened considerably.

Seekers get destroyed quickly (and kill unsuspecting allies sometimes), and sentry turrets don't move.

Force fields are one time use. (needs to come back after a couple mins)

The pistol shoots sooooo slowly. If it had its charge mode maybe it wouldn't be so bad.

The clone rifle is near useless since its shots go everywhere with the mishap-accuracy system.

The rocket launcher has a long reload rate (where you can't even switch weapons while it is loading) and only three shots.

Thermal detonators only knock people down rather than blowing them up. Thermals could be better even with one shot that actually does something.

The blaster rifle doesn't have full auto mode, though it does do decent damage (though with full auto there would be similar problems to the clone rifle).

Cloak doesn't cloak (it makes you "The Blur").

The bowcaster and disruptor are great, while I have ammo. (though I'd like the bowcaster's primary and secondary fires swapped.)


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Old 06-17-2007, 02:04 PM   #25
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For the bowcaster, I'd want the charge mode removed, and the shots not bouncing.

Gunners are weaker than Jedi in long times. In short ones they are as strong. To avoid long times, LMS could help if it made everybody respawn.
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Old 06-17-2007, 03:13 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheShaman
To avoid long times, LMS could help if it made everybody respawn.
Everyone respawning, as I said, wouldn't work in CTF. Also, now that I think about it, if everyone respawned in Holocron mode the leader would lose their holocrons. Whether or not that is a good thing could be argued, but I think the leader earned them. The other side is that the leader could stay the leader easily if they still had them.


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Old 06-17-2007, 05:35 PM   #27
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You should really try one of the newer revisions

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Old 06-17-2007, 09:32 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxstate
You should really try one of the newer revisions
What do you mean? I have 'v'. Is there another?


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Old 06-18-2007, 04:38 AM   #29
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Yes there is, not a 009letter but a revision (560).

And I still think that respawn is a good idea. In CTF maps you have ammo dispensers, so you don't have to make everybody respawn. And to be honest, CTF LMS wouldn't be very good... once the flag carrier killed his enemies, nobody to stop him heh?
Also in holocron, LMS sounds a bit weird, and would it be that bad to lose your holocrons between each round? It would be far less boring to have to get new ones to fight, more unique combinations, more unique fights.
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Old 06-18-2007, 05:29 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Faelion
What do you mean? I have 'v'. Is there another?
Well...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faelion
Whether or not the force powers are changeable, gunners still have ammo problems. (aka: still weaker than Jedi)
As Shaman said, Jedi outlive gunners in the long run, but there are viable and easy solutions to that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faelion
Jedi have rechargable power. Mercs have flamethrowers, but they were weakened considerably.
The seeker, sentry, flamethrower and pistol never run out of ammo, but I understand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faelion
Seekers get destroyed quickly (and kill unsuspecting allies sometimes), and sentry turrets don't move.
This is far from the case. The biggest annoyance currently according to my betatesters is the seeker. It just totally ruins gameplay and usually has jedi on their knees before the gunner even has to pull the trigger.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faelion
Force fields are one time use. (needs to come back after a couple mins)
I think the gunner in questions needs to be able to "use" them and pick them up, then after a mild cooldown, set it down again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faelion
The pistol shoots sooooo slowly. If it had its charge mode maybe it wouldn't be so bad.
It has a recharge function (that needs some tweaking) and it's fire rate when shot right is just under that of the e-11 I think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faelion
The clone rifle is near useless since its shots go everywhere with the mishap-accuracy system.
If you run, yes. You need to manage your mishap, takes getting used too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faelion
The rocket launcher has a long reload rate (where you can't even switch weapons while it is loading) and only three shots.
It will literally obliterate anything that is already floored, and floor anything that is standing. If there is a weapon that is considered a team weapon, it's the rocket launcher --> two people with 'launchers working in a team can wipe out a whole team by timing their rockets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faelion
Thermal detonators only knock people down rather than blowing them up. Thermals could be better even with one shot that actually does something.
Well now you have a quite overpowered version of the quick/snapthrow working in the latest revisions... and it makes the thermal pretty lame, but very much usable against pretty much anyone. I suggest we just buff it's damage to instakill in a wide area but make it timed only.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faelion
The blaster rifle doesn't have full auto mode, though it does do decent damage (though with full auto there would be similar problems to the clone rifle).
The blaster rifle is my weapon of choice --> takes down a jedi in 10 shots or less if they all hit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faelion
Cloak doesn't cloak (it makes you "The Blur").
I actually like the new cloak, it's an improvement over the new one that had blue streaks running through it. Pretty hard to see unless the lighting conditions are just good enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faelion
The bowcaster and disruptor are great, while I have ammo. (though I'd like the bowcaster's primary and secondary fires swapped.)
[/quote]
I think Shaman has a point. The widespread multishot thing is just too much of a quake 3 thang.

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Old 06-18-2007, 11:38 AM   #31
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Seeker needs less fire rate (like 1 shot per second, or even 0.5 maybe), half of pistol's damage. Also to make it cooler it should be same shots as pistol (small yellow shots, not big pinkish-red shots) and have same speed as pistol shots.
(Which means: faster projectiles, less damage, less fire rate, yellow shots)
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Old 06-18-2007, 12:55 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxstate
As Shaman said, Jedi outlive gunners in the long run, but there are viable and easy solutions to that.
Read the first nonbold line of my starting post. Totally already agree. What are the solutions though?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxstate
The seeker, sentry, flamethrower and pistol never run out of ammo, but I understand.
If either the seeker or sentry are destroyed, aren't they gone until the gunner respawns?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxstate
If you run, yes. You need to manage your mishap, takes getting used too.
Even while standing still it feels out of control. Does the mishap meter go up less with each shot if you have more experience? That would be a cool feature.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxstate
I think the gunner in questions needs to be able to "use" them and pick them up, then after a mild cooldown, set it down again.
I'd vote for that, but what if the force field is destroyed? Should it be gone or should the player still be able to pick up a damaged version with a longer 'cooldown' time (for repairs).

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheShaman
Yes there is, not a 009letter but a revision (560).
How can I get the newer revisions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxstate
It will literally obliterate anything that is already floored, and floor anything that is standing. If there is a weapon that is considered a team weapon, it's the rocket launcher --> two people with 'launchers working in a team can wipe out a whole team by timing their rockets.
Fine, but why can't you swap weapons? (I'm guessing it has something to do with the reloading process being unaviodable because it won't continue to reload after you swap back.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxstate
Pretty hard to see unless the lighting conditions are just good enough.
So cloaking is more hide in the shadows then. Okay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheShaman
And I still think that respawn is a good idea. In CTF maps you have ammo dispensers, so you don't have to make everybody respawn.
Where are the ammo dispensers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheShaman
And to be honest, CTF LMS wouldn't be very good... once the flag carrier killed his enemies, nobody to stop him heh?
That's what I had in mind. When they get their point everyone may respawn though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheShaman
Also in holocron, LMS sounds a bit weird, and would it be that bad to lose your holocrons between each round? It would be far less boring to have to get new ones to fight, more unique combinations, more unique fights.
I was just asking for opinions on that one. I understand what you are saying, but there are still two sides (since 'boring' is relative).

Could there be a cvar that says if everyone respawns? (to get both sides)


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Old 06-19-2007, 04:47 AM   #33
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A cvar to make everybody respawn or not, according to the server hoster's will? This seems interesting.

As for the latest revisions, they are very well hidden in a topic called OJPE Latest Revisions Thread.
http://lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=179091&page=2
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Old 06-20-2007, 04:52 PM   #34
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As far as respawning goes, you don't have to make it kill people as i said in the previous topic on this. Just make it reset some stats that player_die normally does, and "respawn" as needed.

The ammo dispenser cans are newbie. Should make a way to spawn ammo and health droids in the maps or something like SW:BF2

Or have jawa's randomly walking around and able to toss packs of ammo and health :S


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Old 06-20-2007, 05:29 PM   #35
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I vote for the second idea :P.


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Old 06-21-2007, 07:46 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ensiform
As far as respawning goes, you don't have to make it kill people as i said in the previous topic on this. Just make it reset some stats that player_die normally does, and "respawn" as needed.

The ammo dispenser cans are newbie. Should make a way to spawn ammo and health droids in the maps or something like SW:BF2

Or have jawa's randomly walking around and able to toss packs of ammo and health :S
The 'stat reset' one is good, but the other two result in camping next to the dispensers (or following them).


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Old 06-23-2007, 05:21 PM   #37
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Ensiform is our man! Respawning without killing wins!
But as for the Jawas... the idea is funny but well...
By the way, why would we still need ammo or health dispensers?
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Old 06-24-2007, 05:48 AM   #38
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How about a feature called "manufacture ammo". Basically, its like an emote that uses the typing animation. When you're in that emote, the ammo for your weapon will recharge. Moving around cancels the emote
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Old 06-24-2007, 06:38 AM   #39
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Good idea, I'm for a reloading system, but then the gun needs a clip, and an ammo pool (pretty much like MB2), otherwise gunners would have infinite ammo, which is very bad.
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Old 06-24-2007, 07:03 AM   #40
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Its not really infinite ammo. What happens is ammo recharges slowly depending on which gun you're using. Maybe the E11 recharges at a rate of 4 rounds every second, while while the rocket launcher reloads at 1 round every 15 seconds, but this can only be done when you're in the "manufacture ammo" emote. This means you can't run while manufacturing your ammo. You'll need to stop, get into that emote (just like how Jedi need to sit in order to recharge dp and fp at a decent rate)
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