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Old 07-01-2007, 11:03 PM   #1
GarfieldJL
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Sexist Education System

No I'm not referring to girls being discriminated against, I'm referring to boys being discriminated against. Classes are being tailored in a way that hurts boys, while catering to most girls' strengths. While there are some teachers and schools out there trying to help boys catch up, I imagine they'll soon be facing lawsuits from the feminist movement.

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Old 07-02-2007, 12:05 AM   #2
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Perhaps this is a good reason to keep the sexes seperated during the school day. Fewer distractions and more flexibility for the teacher in crafting teaching strategies that play to each gender's strengths and weaknesses, rather than taking a one size fits all bureaucratic track. Besides, it's not like the kids won't socialize after school hours anyway.


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Old 07-02-2007, 12:33 AM   #3
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Agreed. Why don't we have gender seperate schools? Or at least Gender Seperate classes? Although, personally, I don't know what I would do if I had been given the option to go to an all girls school oposed to a mixed. The majority, if not all, my friends in school were guys. But, all in all, I think I would have taken the offer and just hanged out with the tomboys. And if it was a school with an ok uniform, even better.

I was in a special education class in middle school for kids who had trouble learning. It was me, 4 or 5 other girls, and then 40 boys. Does that tell you anything?

The two gender's learn differently I have found. Not saying that one gender is slower than the other, but they just learn differently because they are wired differently. Some of the smartest people I have met have been male, but at the same time the majority of people I saw failing classes happened to be the guys. Girls were always top of class at my schools, and the guys were always below in the failing area.

Not sure if this is the fault of the education system, parents, or society though. Most likely a mix of all, because years and years ago it was the girls that had the problem so it may not actually be genetics or how the brain works, but how the world views the genders as a whole. The girls in my classes understood that to get ahead in life, you have to be smart so they worked their pretty little butts off. But the guys... the majority of guys I saw failing classes assumed that they could get away with living off of sports, doing something physical, or something else not involving an education. Most just saw education as unimportant. I believe that to be a failure of society and parents, not gender.
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Old 07-02-2007, 04:20 AM   #4
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To be fair, girls do develop faster, and it is more obvious at the younger age. So there is a difference. Well, at least there is a difference up til half way thru high school mostly.

But actually this might not be too big of a problem, depending on how you organize the classes. I have found that groups of mixed gender kids do work well together, and the different thinking patterns does help both gender in terms of problem solving and such.

In short, yes there is a difference. But things can be done to benefit from such differences, and in general it seems that co-ed school is still better.
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Old 07-02-2007, 10:17 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PoiuyWired
To be fair, girls do develop faster, and it is more obvious at the younger age. So there is a difference. Well, at least there is a difference up til half way thru high school mostly.

But actually this might not be too big of a problem, depending on how you organize the classes. I have found that groups of mixed gender kids do work well together, and the different thinking patterns does help both gender in terms of problem solving and such.

In short, yes there is a difference. But things can be done to benefit from such differences, and in general it seems that co-ed school is still better.

Guys develop slower in some areas, this is true, however learning disabilities are being over diagnosed now, because classes are catering to the learning styles of girls. The loss of recess, being stuck in a seat all day, girls can handle it better than guys can. Seperating genders probably won't help, because either one gender or the other will end up with access to better learning materials, probably the girls will get the more up to date learning materials.

When this issue was first brought up, the feminist movement cried foul, saying it's just girls are now able to show their potential and people are sexist to say the classrooms are catering to girls.
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Old 07-02-2007, 12:39 PM   #6
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Whenever I see threads like these I feel like the oddball out. In my high school experience and in lower grades the guys were pretty good and top of the class. The exception was in elementary school with a kid who did have trouble learning but I was paired with him and helped. Needless to say, he did a lot better in school and did good in high school as far as I know. Maybe I'm on of the lucky ones or it could be that I grew up tomboyish and understand a bit guy mentality. It also helps that I spent time with my cousins who came over to play frequently.

The sad thing is that both sides are right. Yeah we see the difference now that girls are doing better in the school system but they are still prejudiced against. Women make 8 cents on the dollar, big improvement from the 6 but still we are not being paid equally for the same time and job skill. The education system at least here in California is lousy. It sucks. The nonsense that is required makes is easy for students to fail, especially bilingual students. It's no wonder that California is ranked 50 in the education realm out of the US. We have problems from all sides, the bureaucracy, the factions, everybody. Unfortunately whatever changes we make is bound to tick someone off.

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Old 07-02-2007, 01:20 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JediMaster12
Whenever I see threads like these I feel like the oddball out. In my high school experience and in lower grades the guys were pretty good and top of the class. The exception was in elementary school with a kid who did have trouble learning but I was paired with him and helped. Needless to say, he did a lot better in school and did good in high school as far as I know. Maybe I'm on of the lucky ones or it could be that I grew up tomboyish and understand a bit guy mentality. It also helps that I spent time with my cousins who came over to play frequently.
How long has it been since high school for you JediMaster, also I did say there were exceptions. Back when I was in Elementry we had 3 recesses, now kids are lucky to have one.

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The sad thing is that both sides are right. Yeah we see the difference now that girls are doing better in the school system but they are still prejudiced against. Women make 8 cents on the dollar, big improvement from the 6 but still we are not being paid equally for the same time and job skill. The education system at least here in California is lousy. It sucks. The nonsense that is required makes is easy for students to fail, especially bilingual students. It's no wonder that California is ranked 50 in the education realm out of the US. We have problems from all sides, the bureaucracy, the factions, everybody. Unfortunately whatever changes we make is bound to tick someone off.

Well if the schools are catering to girls and now being set up in a way that is actually setting boys up to fail then it is discriminatory towards boys. The situation of women in the workplace, believe it or not there are laws against discriminating via paychecks just not many women report it. I have heard of cases recently where the opposite occurs though.
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Old 07-02-2007, 03:42 PM   #8
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Actually Garfield I meant that system was designed for all students to fail. I have seen it happen with kids, especially those that come from the low income areas. It is a sad thing and I wonder how we can make it right.

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Originally Posted by GarfieldJL
How long has it been since high school for you JediMaster, also I did say there were exceptions. Back when I was in Elementry we had 3 recesses, now kids are lucky to have one.
About five years actually since I graduated and yet I have come back every so often to see the changes. I'm not saying that I am out of touch. I see it every time I visit my mother's classroom. She teaches kinder.

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Old 07-02-2007, 05:15 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GarfieldJL
however learning disabilities are being over diagnosed now, because classes are catering to the learning styles of girls. The loss of recess, being stuck in a seat all day, girls can handle it better than guys can. Seperating genders probably won't help, because either one gender or the other will end up with access to better learning materials, probably the girls will get the more up to date learning materials.
So you are saying that it wrong to cater to one or the other, then what is your solution or do you just want to go back to the old system that caters only to males? We are a very adaptive species and I believe we will cope with this little problem. Males need to get use to it anyways as more and more jobs demand being stuck in a seat all day looking at a computer monitor. Consider this job training. All my cousins gripe about being stuck in class all day and then summer rolls around and they are still stuck inside all day playing video games.

The education system is flawed in the US and needs a complete overhaul. We are suppose to be teaching our children to cope and solve problems, but all we seem to be doing is testing them and giving them crutches to use as excuses for their future failures. Failure is a part of life and should be celebrated as a learning experience. Sometimes we learn more from our failures than our triumphs.

Iím not for separating the genders or home school (there is nothing wrong with home schooling and it should be every parents right to choose what is in the best interest of their child) I just believe social interaction is just as important to a persons development as history, language, math or anything else taught at school.

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Back when I was in Elementry we had 3 recesses, now kids are lucky to have one.
Back when we rode dinosaurs to school we only got one recess and then only if we didnít talk during class or smart off to the teacher. Most days I did not get any recess. Have you every had to spend an hour with you nose pressed into a circle on a black board? Iím still allergic to chalk. Ah, wasted youth.
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Old 07-02-2007, 05:47 PM   #10
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Oh please, this isn't about adapting this is about throwing kids into situations that they aren't ready for. An analogy would be tossing someone off a boat without a life preserver.


Also you want to make something of the fact I had three recesses when I was in elementry. Face it little kids need to have recess, so they aren't stuck in a chair all day.
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Old 07-02-2007, 06:07 PM   #11
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Oh please, this isn't about adapting this is about throwing kids into situations that they aren't ready for. An analogy would be tossing someone off a boat without a life preserver.
Which is exactly what we did to little girls till 1972, I just want to know your plan to make it equitable to both genders.

I always thought life was about throwing myself into new experiences that I may not ready for. I happen to believe in testing myself whenever possible.

By the way that is how I was taught to swim only it wasnít a boat but a pier.

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Also you want to make something of the fact I had three recesses when I was in elementry. Face it little kids need to have recess, so they aren't stuck in a chair all day.
I wasnít making anything out of it. I would have loved 3 recesses when I was in school. All I was saying is that it was not always the case. We only had one, but we also had PE and music class to distract our young minds.

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Old 07-02-2007, 06:08 PM   #12
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The best example of the problem in Britain is the preponderance of coursework. Generally, girls work on it over the six months or however long they have to do it steadily. By comparison, boys tend to do it all in a huge rush at the last minute. Who is going to do better?



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Old 07-02-2007, 06:48 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JediMaster12
The sad thing is that both sides are right. Yeah we see the difference now that girls are doing better in the school system but they are still prejudiced against. Women make 8 cents on the dollar, big improvement from the 6 but still we are not being paid equally for the same time and job skill.
You DID mean 80 and 60 cents respectively? Otherwise, there'd be no reason to hire men for just about anything, let alone outsource to other countries.


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Old 07-02-2007, 07:08 PM   #14
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Which is exactly what we did to little girls till 1972, I just want to know your plan to make it equitable to both genders.
I will acknowledge the education system was discriminatory towards girls until the late 1960s. However that doesn't excuse discriminating against boys.

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Originally Posted by mimartin
I always thought life was about throwing myself into new experiences that I may not ready for. I happen to believe in testing myself whenever possible.
There is a difference between new experiences and setting someone up to fail.

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Originally Posted by mimartin
By the way that is how I was taught to swim only it wasnít a boat but a pier.
I imagine someone was there to help you if you started to drown.

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Originally Posted by mimartin
I wasnít making anything out of it. I would have loved 3 recesses when I was in school. All I was saying is that it was not always the case. We only had one, but we also had PE and music class to distract our young minds.
Oh I'm sorry I didn't mention those, I had 3 recesses, Music, Art, and PE in elementry. Little kids need to be able to move around, boys learn by doing, not sitting there filling out worksheets.
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Old 07-02-2007, 07:35 PM   #15
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The system is not discriminatory to anybody. Everybody has the chance for equal pass and equal fail, but it is their choice to fail which falls back on the parents and society as a whole.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mimartin
So you are saying that it wrong to cater to one or the other, then what is your solution or do you just want to go back to the old system that caters only to males? We are a very adaptive species and I believe we will cope with this little problem. Males need to get use to it anyways as more and more jobs demand being stuck in a seat all day looking at a computer monitor. Consider this job training. All my cousins gripe about being stuck in class all day and then summer rolls around and they are still stuck inside all day playing video games.
Quoted for Truth.

Guys do not have mental problems. They are not slow. They are not underdeveloped or sick. I have met people with actual mental illnesses, I worked with them for 3 years, and I was part of their class. The males you are referring to are -lazy-. As mimartin said, guys will gripe and complain, and refuse to do the work all school year but then go home and play video games for 10 hours and not move the entire time.

The school system is not singling out males. They are not mistreating them. They are simply doing exactly what they have been doing for years: Running a crappy education system to get kids through school. Some pass, some fail. Genetics are not to blame here. Gender is not to blame here. Society and parents are to blame. The kids who stay glued to their Xbox for 10 hours and refuse to do work at school are not being mistreated, they just simply refuse to step up to the plate and take responsibility for their life.

Anybody can pass High School. I live in San Diego, and when I was in High School we had people coming in freshman year who barely knew English passing all their classes and getting their work in. They passed because they tried, male or female. The system does not mistreat boys. Boys mistreat themselves. Girl mistreat themselves. Want a reason why these boys are failing school? Because their idiot parents never taught them responsibly, got it into their heads that sports can make your life, and society has been saying for awhile now to the youth of America that an education is simply a reason for the man to put you down.

The "me!" generation we have going on uses the excuse of racism, prejudice, mental illness, drugs, etc as excuses simply not to take responsibly for their own life and instead have their parents guide them through their troubles. In all this coddling, loving, and obsession with making their kids happy, living an "innocent childhood", and making excuses for their "emotional health", parents having brought their own kids down and kept them from growing up. Same goes for the opposite when parents abuse their kids. Girls were taught years ago that their life was not worth much outside a kitchen, so they failed school. Now it has reversed, and the "me!" generation is bringing down both boys and girls alike. It just seem like the guys are getting the worst of it.

By saying that boys are being singled out by sexist schools is simply helping these boys and girls cuddle up behind the people willing to defend them so they do not have to grow up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GarfieldJL
Guys develop slower in some areas, this is true, however learning disabilities are being over diagnosed now, because classes are catering to the learning styles of girls. The loss of recess, being stuck in a seat all day, girls can handle it better than guys can. Separating genders probably won't help, because either one gender or the other will end up with access to better learning materials, probably the girls will get the more up to date learning materials.
How are the classes catering to girls exactly? I was in school not to long ago and I am still well in touch with the "me!" generation. The girls passed classes because they had the mindset to pass classes. A lot of girls failed because they did not have that mindset. A lot of guys failed because they screwed around during class, did not turn in work, and mouthed off to the teacher. That is not the teacher's failing, that is the kids and parents failing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GarfieldJL
Classes are being tailored in a way that hurts boys, while catering to most girls' strengths.
Boys hurt themselves. People are responsible for their own actions a lot of the time, and the actions of these adolescents can be blamed on their upbringing. I didn't really ever see the guys failing my classes actually attempt to ask for help or pass the class. No, the sat down, talked to their partner, and never did a lick of work.

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Originally Posted by GarfieldJL
While there are some teachers and schools out there trying to help boys catch up, I imagine they'll soon be facing lawsuits from the feminist movement.
What on earth does the feminist movement have to do with this? This is not a conspiracy by the feminists to make boys look bad so women can rule the world. The boys are doing that to themselves.

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Originally Posted by GarfieldJL
When this issue was first brought up, the feminist movement cried foul, saying it's just girls are now able to show their potential and people are sexist to say the classrooms are catering to girls.
Ummm... maybe because the girls are actually doing the work? It is not sexist to say that one gender is doing better than the other in the school system if it is fact, by your article. Don't blame the feminists, don't blame the school, don't even blame the teachers. Blame the people who raised them this way. If boys could rock school 100 years ago and girls failed at all turns, then the boys should be able to turn that around if they wanted. They just don't want to because they would rather play video games.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GarfieldJL
Oh please, this isn't about adapting this is about throwing kids into situations that they aren't ready for. An analogy would be tossing someone off a boat without a life preserver.
I think that is exactly the situation. Parents are raising their kids badly, and throwing them into a school setting to which they are not mature enough to handle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GarfieldJL
There is a difference between new experiences and setting someone up to fail.
You are assuming, again, that the school system hates boys. It does not. Want to know a fun fact? In all of my classes, the Honors group was 90% girls. The College Prep was all the rest of the boys in the class and usually 1 girl. They just don't want to step up to the plate to higher themselves, even though the opportunity is right in front of them.

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Originally Posted by GarfieldJL
I imagine someone was there to help you if you started to drown.
That someone should be themselves, and the people who raised them. Not the school system, especially if they have already refused to take the help of the system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GarfieldJL
Oh I'm sorry I didn't mention those, I had 3 recesses, Music, Art, and PE in elementry. Little kids need to be able to move around, boys learn by doing, not sitting there filling out worksheets.
Fun fact: Doing worksheets is doing something. Running around for 6 hours outside does not teach boys math, does not teach them english, and does not set them up for High School and College. You are making excuses for them. If a boy cannot sit down and do work, even if he is younger, that is the fault of his parents for not teaching him to respect their teacher and the time the teacher spends on them. These boys simply refuse to do the work, period.

The school system sucks, I agree. But I went to the newest High School in the district. Brand New. Less than 5 years old. Best teachers, best books, best computers, best everything in the entire area. The guys still failed. Girls still failed. Boys still passed. Girls still passed. I have seen some really really really crappy schools in the area. Classes that are made of cardboard boxes stapled into walls. People still passed, and still failed in both genders.

The people who passed earned it. The people who failed earned it. And the people who failed did so of their own free will. The people who passed did so of their own free will.

Thats my opinion.
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Old 07-02-2007, 07:47 PM   #16
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You DID mean 80 and 60 cents respectively? Otherwise, there'd be no reason to hire men for just about anything, let alone outsource to other countries.
For every dollar women make 80 cents. That was what I was getting at. I have friends at the women center at school and I get swamped every time I go by that place with info so yeah I know about Rosie the Riveter and Dolores Huerta.

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Old 07-02-2007, 08:15 PM   #17
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I imagine someone was there to help you if you started to drown.
Iíll just say that I was not overly confident in the ability of my drunken uncle to save me or anyone else. I got to shore on my own and Iím still an expert at the dog paddle. My mother upon hearing this fired my uncle from his baby setting duties and enrolled me with the city pool to get properly trained in the art of swimming.

It wasn't entirely my uncle's fault. It was after all the way both he and my mother were taught to swim. That is one family tradition that will end with me.
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Old 07-02-2007, 08:40 PM   #18
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For every dollar women make 80 cents. That was what I was getting at. I have friends at the women center at school and I get swamped every time I go by that place with info so yeah I know about Rosie the Riveter and Dolores Huerta.
Heard of Rosie, but who's Dolores? I only noted that b/c you originally wrote 8 and 6. Private industry, hell..even govt, would love to be able to pay people those kind of wages. Frankly, have never had problem with the gap, so long as it was comparing apples and oranges (truck driver v waitress).
However, pay should be equalized across the board for the same type of labor w/in a company, at least at the hourly rate. Salaries might vary due to other issues (maternity leave, etc..).

Back O/T, I went to a mixed grade school system and a male only HS. Seems to me that both sexes learn better when seperated. Even then, some will always excel, while others lag behind. Besides, they'll get reintegrated back at the university level, unless they pick a single gender college. Doesn't seem to do their socializing skills any harm either.


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Old 07-02-2007, 08:51 PM   #19
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Back O/T, I went to a mixed grade school system and a male only HS. Seems to me that both sexes learn better when seperated. Even then, some will always excel, while others lag behind. Besides, they'll get reintegrated back at the university level, unless they pick a single gender college. Doesn't seem to do their socializing skills any harm either.
Where do you live by the way? I might be out of touch with the system, but to my knowledge there are no all boy or full girl schools in the USA and few in England. I would have been thrilled to go to an all girls school personally.
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Old 07-02-2007, 09:30 PM   #20
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Totenkpof: Dolores Huerta is the right hand woman of the United Farm Workers org that was started by Cesar Chavez. She has come to our campus already and there is talk that she may come again. Here in California, the United Farm Workers was a bg thing in the 60's with the Bracero Program and all. I think that was a typo with the 8 and the 6. Sometimes I think faster than I write and vice versa.

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Old 07-02-2007, 10:30 PM   #21
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OMG, **** having gender-segregated schools. I'd say the only redeeming quality of schools in America is they're the best place to meet (or just look at) hot girls your age. Without that I'd probably drop out.
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Old 07-02-2007, 10:57 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by True_Avery
Where do you live by the way? I might be out of touch with the system, but to my knowledge there are no all boy or full girl schools in the USA and few in England. I would have been thrilled to go to an all girls school personally.
I went to catholic school, though you'd not necessarily know that from sitting in religion class (especially in HS). Grade school was mixed, but there were several all girl high schools w/in a mile of us (2 of them also catholic and 2 private). I doubt you'd find a "segregated" public school in the US, at least none that I've ever heard of before. The schools are located in Pgh. PA. There was at least one mixed gender catholic hs as well.

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Old 07-03-2007, 02:53 AM   #23
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OMG, **** having gender-segregated schools. I'd say the only redeeming quality of schools in America is they're the best place to meet (or just look at) hot girls your age. Without that I'd probably drop out.
And, with that, you have proven my point. You have also proven that a gender segregated school would do you, and a lot of other people wonders.

Schools are not to blame for being sexist and causing guys to fail. Guys are quite capable of ruining their own life, and to emphasize this: "Without that I'd probably drop out".

It does seem that schools are turning into a fashion show by the year though. Maybe gender segregation and such is not what we need...

Mandatory uniforms for all schools anyone?
http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=180131

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Old 07-03-2007, 02:56 AM   #24
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And, with that, you have proven my point. You have also proven that a gender segregated school would do you, and a lot of other people wonders.
How does that do people wonders? Having dudes drop out instead of going to school at all?

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Mandatory uniforms for all schools anyone?
Ah hell no.
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Old 07-03-2007, 03:11 AM   #25
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How does that do people wonders? Having dudes drop out instead of going to school at all?
No, it would mean people would actually go to school to learn instead of a reason to stare at eachother.
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Old 07-03-2007, 03:13 AM   #26
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No, it would mean people would actually go to school to learn instead of a reason to stare at eachother.
A lot of people wouldn't go to school. Especially when you consider that the school system in America just sucks and doesn't teach you anything. The only reason some people go to school is because there are redeeming qualities... such as it being a place for hooking up, or showing off, or whatever. Take away those things and then people won't go period.
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Old 07-03-2007, 03:29 AM   #27
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A lot of people wouldn't go to school. Especially when you consider that the school system in America just sucks and doesn't teach you anything. The only reason some people go to school is because there are redeeming qualities... such as it being a place for hooking up, or showing off, or whatever. Take away those things and then people won't go period.
There is nothing, or very little wrong with the current education system at all besides the students of the "me!" generation. You are making an excuse in saying the system sucks, and is thus not worth it "because it teaches you nothing." No, you teach yourself nothing. The teachers teach you a lot, you just refuse to listen.

Oh, people would go to school because their parents would still make them and law would still make them. Maybe you would drop out, but then you prove my point of poor upraising and the fact there is nothing wrong with the schools but with the students and the parents who raised them. Some people go to school to learn and better themselves, some go to look at people. If the people that go for the sole fact they like to stare at a girl's breasts drop out... well, we will have an influx of people into dirty jobs and restraunts. Which could be good, because that means I don't have to trust them with something important since obviously they are not willing to do what it takes to become a working part of society.

And, if schools are now truly about "showing off" then I deeply... deeply fear for America when they actually grow up to control this country. I don't give a damn how good you look, because in 20-30 years that tight skin, amazing hair, and perfect body goes away when age steps in. Your mind lasts your entire life, your teenage body only lasts a little. If you, and everybody else would drop out when fashion is no longer a factor in education simply because you cannot "show off" then there is nothing wrong with the schools. The problem is brain dead kids being raised by brain dead parents in a completely lacking society controled by brain dead adults.
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Old 07-03-2007, 03:42 AM   #28
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Sorry but our schools suck. They don't teach you anything. Just look at how European schools do in comparison to ours. It's not the students that are the problem, it's our government that underfunds schools, sets a retarded curriculum, and discourages private competition.

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well, we will have an influx of people into dirty jobs and restraunts.
Actually no. If more people started dropping out, then more employers would start accepting drop-outs. Otherwise they wouldn't have enough employees. And you would be suprised how well drop-outs can do, especially when self-employed. This whole "oh if you don't go to school, you'll work at McDonalds all your life" line is pretty much crap. Don't mistake me for glorifying dropping out, however. I'm just saying, it's not as bad as a lot of people make it out to be.
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Old 07-03-2007, 04:48 AM   #29
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Actually, True, there are a lot of things wrong with education in this country (from the NEA being more concerned with $$ and politics than education to social promotion rather than skill based advancement). That said, there are many good schools in the country as well, and pockets of learning actually taking place in many substandard institutions. Part of the problem with education in this country is that the inmates often run the asylum. Discipline is difficult b/c the kids know they can get a lawyer to gum up the works, should, God forbid, anyone try to straighten them out. A lot of books are boring or factually incorrect. Students, unfortunately, need to be motivated to learn, and a lot of teacher's are often poor, but can't be gotten rid of b/c of issues like tenure/seniority. Top it off with often hostile parents who were poor students themselves, and it's a wonder many kids learn anything at all. I almost marvel that teachers in the public system can maintain the desire to stick it out in many areas. Good teachers can often make a difference, but it's an uphill struggle in a system that's largely abandonned them. This in no way exonerates students who won't make the effort to learn, nor their parents who won't get involved in their kids education either. But to place all the blame on the students is shortsighted.

TK, they might accept more dropouts, but the pay would be abysmally low in comparison to the wages received by those who didn't drop out. Look at the current disparity between even what HS and University graduates get over their lifetimes. That isn't absolute, btw, but a good rule of thumb. Some people who drop out of school are very bright (higher IQ), but most don't tend to be. There is more to success than a diploma/ged, but they are often necessary for most people. It sucks, but it's true. I used to wonder about the expectations of education when I'd get results in 3rd grade which said I was operating at levels expected from someone 1/2 way through their senior year of hs.


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Old 07-03-2007, 05:41 AM   #30
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Actually, True, there are a lot of things wrong with education in this country (from the NEA being more concerned with $$ and politics than education to social promotion rather than skill based advancement). That said, there are many good schools in the country as well, and pockets of learning actually taking place in many substandard institutions. Part of the problem with education in this country is that the inmates often run the asylum. Discipline is difficult b/c the kids know they can get a lawyer to gum up the works, should, God forbid, anyone try to straighten them out. A lot of books are boring or factually incorrect. Students, unfortunately, need to be motivated to learn, and a lot of teacher's are often poor, but can't be gotten rid of b/c of issues like tenure/seniority. Top it off with often hostile parents who were poor students themselves, and it's a wonder many kids learn anything at all. I almost marvel that teachers in the public system can maintain the desire to stick it out in many areas. Good teachers can often make a difference, but it's an uphill struggle in a system that's largely abandonned them. This in no way exonerates students who won't make the effort to learn, nor their parents who won't get involved in their kids education either. But to place all the blame on the students is shortsighted.
I agree, and after thinking that over I find I worded what I was trying put across badly.

Schools are indeed bad, but not as bad as I think people put that out to be. Yes, they suck, but that does not mean they teach you nothing at all. I learned a lot from my schools even though my school was lacking in a lot, I still got good grades and absorbed what was being taught over students who did nothing but talk in class. But, that may just be personal experience with my schools as I know there are schools out there that are simply terrible... like another high school down my street.

How society currently works nowadays probably has some blame for this. Schools have little money, and we all know that and that is why it makes a lot of them pretty terrible. But that is the governments fault, not the school systems. And the government, to be quiet honest, is all the people who are under that government. People scream and yell about the education system all the time, but since a majority vote does not seem to get money into schools, it just looks like everybody is a hypacrit not willing to pay the extra tax dollars or vote people in who actually care.

I agree, forcing all the blame onto the kids is short-sighted. Schools that get a lot of money do great. But, the -best- schools are uniform schools with parents that get actively involved with the school. If kids are willing to drop out so casually and see education as simply irrelevent to life (In which some ways it is), then that fault can be put on the upraising of the child. Upraising includes both parents and the society they grew up in.

If we fed more money into the system then some thing would happen. Teachers would actually compete for the jobs because it would pay well, bringing in higher quality teaching. All gear and books up to date. Classrooms that looks nice. Studies have shown that high money schools get better grade averages and less drop outs, but what does that still say about the kids that drop out?

Blame can be put on the schools, yes, but I still think far too much blame is put on the schools because the parents blaming the schools are not willingto step up to the plate and take some responsibility for how they raised their kid.

But, as has been said, dropping out does not end your life and yes many people do great even after they have dropped out. But just because some do better, does not mean you will do better. All these boys dropping out... not doing work... sure, the dropping out part can be ignored in a lot of situations... but what does that say about you as a person? I think far too few people view school as a job. School is a test for real life, and it is not like a job is suddenly heaven. The majority of jobs suck. School sucks a lot of the time. But what kind of habits and such have you given yourself by quitting your job of school, not doing the work in school, etc? Ya know, in school you can refuse to do work and goof off. You goof off at our job and refuse to do work... you get fired. As a teacher told me one day, "a lot of things in school arn't fair, but a lot of things in life arn't fair either. You can quit school, ignore the rules, and come late to school if you want to, but we punish you for being late to class not to anoy you, but because being late to your -job- after school means you get fired. It is about building habits, good habits." Throwing school off as not being worth it does not show much to an employer. You can be freaking brilliant, but when you sign on for a career one of the first things they will ask you is "why did you dump school?" Because, how can they trust you to do a job you might not like if you were not willing to do school just because it wasn't very bearable? Dropping out is not a bad thing in of itself, but it does not exactly reflect on your person very well.

All in all, the blame seems to fall evenly on everybody as I am still having some debates with myself on who could solidly be blames for this. I tried the parents and students thing, but it seems just as convienent as blaming the school.

But, mostly I'm throwing things out to see how it debates and such. So far my opinion on this has changed a few times over the cource of this thread.
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Old 07-03-2007, 12:01 PM   #31
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If kids are willing to drop out so casually and see education as simply irrelevent to life (In which some ways it is), then that fault can be put on the upraising of the child. Upraising includes both parents and the society they grew up in.
So true. While I was classed with the AP/IB kids, I still got to be around the college prep kids. Those were the two classifications. Anyway it shocked me when I would hear students say yeah I ditched four times this week and I am still getting an A. It made me wonder what was going on.

As to whether or not being required to wear uniforms is a critical factor in school success seems trivial. There have been cases where a low income school has surpassed expectations in state testing scores and in the classrooms. True parent involvment helps a bit but I think part of it too has to do with the faculty. Yeah there is always the problem of having those who have taught for so many years that they think they know everything but there are some who think that students aren't worth their time and it shows. If you don't set the bar above expectations, how do you expect students to set their own goals?

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Old 07-03-2007, 12:32 PM   #32
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Your teaching of history, I am told, is in particular need of rebuilding.



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Old 07-03-2007, 01:07 PM   #33
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Yeah, even in the accelerated classes. I took AP US History in hs and we never got much past the Depression era, and that class was divided up over two years. What we glibly call "contemporary" (post WW2) history was relegated to about a week or so of ad hoc discussions before finals week. Pretty much the same with European history, though that was only a one year course. Well, there's always college/uni to fill in the rest of those gaps with specialized courses. O'course now history classes are even more blinkered b/c special interests have turned them into PC drivel. Thank God I managed to miss that.

@True--well, a fair amount of money is thrown at education, but throwing $$ at the problem only guarantees corruption, not results. The system needs to be reformed, not rewarded, due to it's general incompetence. Afterall, the basic math and science that you teach at lower levels of school hasn't changed that much in centuries. While bells and whistles are nice, the basics aren't that expensive. Produce a competent student body with what you get first, then we'll talk about extras. The libs love to talk about more funding for education b/c it's always great to hide behind "do it for the children" where people can't see the real agenda, which is to pump more soft cash into the democrat party machine. I'm NOT saying the other side is saintly, but that's just the way it is.


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Old 07-03-2007, 01:48 PM   #34
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There is a difference between new experiences and setting someone up to fail.
You are making an accusation against every school administrator, principle and teacher in the US. Youíre not really saying that you believe there is this huge conspiracy being perpetrated against male students to purposely set young male children up to fail? Males still control most of the power in government how would they allow this to happen? Why would they do this?

What I believe is beyond our education system in need of overhauling is that the system is fairer now that it has ever been in its brief history. Females have caught up and passed males on a level playing field and now we males are crying foul instead of seeing it for what it is a challenge.

This really isnít a gender problem as last I checked parents came in both sexes. It is up to parents to care enough about their child to get involved in his/her education. If the child is failing then find out the reasons and work to correct the problem. Sometime we should look in the mirror before blaming the teacher.

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Old 07-03-2007, 02:21 PM   #35
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Here's a newsflash:
Schools are not here for your entertainment. They are not here for you to find someone to 'hook up with' and get laid. They are not here to be be your social outlet.

Schools are here to EDUCATE.

Buck it up and deal with it. You can either do the work and learn something or you can handicap yourself by sitting around wasting time coming up with ways to try to get out of the work and not learn. You think you'll be able to sit around doing nothing on a job? Think again. It's better for you to learn some good work ethics and knowledge now while you're in school rather than learn it the hard way when you have to support yourself on a minimum-wage paycheck.

Part of the problem is that we're trying to bring everyone to a mediocre level instead of accepting the fact that we're mostly average, but some people with incredibly low IQs aren't going to do well and some incredibly brilliant people are going to go a lot farther than average. Very rarely is the teacher the problem, though I've met some spectacularly awful ones who need to be kicked out of the system.

Part of the problem is over-bureaucratized systems that make teachers and allied professionals waste a ton of time and money on idiotic paperwork and useless programs instead of concentrating on using that time and money where it really belongs, which is educating children.

Part of the problem is also the fact that a lot of parents think it's the school's job to do everything, and they're too busy or too lazy to put some work into their own kids' education. They also don't accept the fact that little Johnny and Suzy aren't perfect, and aren't always going to do the work well. They expect their kids to get perfect grades without any work, and they are doing their kids no favors by not being active participants in their children's education.


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Old 07-03-2007, 02:24 PM   #36
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Your teaching of history, I am told, is in particular need of rebuilding.
I wouldn't know about that since I don't go to the history books but straight to the primary doc. That and I had good professors. Plus I am such a cynic with history that it makes conversation enlightening with mach.

I would say curriculum all around needs rebuilding.

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Old 07-03-2007, 03:27 PM   #37
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Here's a newsflash:
You think you'll be able to sit around doing nothing on a job? Think again.
Yeah, you've got to at least get a union job/tenure/primo executive position before you can get paid for nothin'.


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Old 07-03-2007, 05:18 PM   #38
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Okay here's the situation:

Boys develop fine motor skills later than girls, that affects one's ability to write. So in many cases when writing is now being introduced, boys are not physically ready for it. I know first hand about problems with fine motor skills cause for the longest time it took me 5 minutes to write one word in cursive, it was that difficult for me. Yes I have dysgraphia, but that just goes to so I'm a more extreme example but still. I got F's in handwriting, got good grades in other subjects but D's and F's in handwriting. It had nothing to do with lazyiness though, in most boys their fine motor skills eventually match girls, but in my case it's not something that practice helps much. It finally ended up where the school was forced to provide a word processor in my classroom and at home for my use for school work. Which they originally tried to block but ended up having to do so because my mother actually knew the law concerning people with disabilities.

Next there is the fact that girls actually have an advantage in a classroom where you sit at a desk doing worksheets all day. It's a lot harder on boys because they need the external stimulus, while video games do provide stimuli, they also need to have hands on things. Like actual science experiments too teach, so they actually experience something for themselves.

For instance in 5th grade my teacher had us come up with an experiment using 2 sheets of newspaper, staples, tape, and x amount of string. We had to build something so that an egg could survive a drop of approximately 15-20 feet. And we couldn't build a parachute. See something with educational value without worksheets, without just sitting at desks etc. I'm really glad I had that teacher, because if I had some other teachers that make you sit at a desk all day I would have pretty much given up on school thinking everything was boring. The books we had in 1st and 2nd grade were awful, so boring that I didn't want to read, my mom got me interested in Hardy Boys which were at a 4th grade reading level when I was in 2nd grade. I became an avid reader after that, the problem isn't laziness the problem is the method of teaching causes boredom especially in boys. While this affects girls too, they are better able to cope than boys.

As far as throwing money at the problem, that doesn't help anything when the quality of teachers is lousy. Many schools spend the money on some stupid building project or sometimes ends up going to the salary of adminstrators.

While poor parenting is partially to blame, it is not the sole cause for people doing poorly in school and it is definately not the cause for the disproportionate number of boys doing poorly in school compared to girls. What seems to be laziness is actually where they've completely given up because they are so frustrated with it. It has nothing to do with the "me" generation, if it did it would be the same between boys and girls.

So yes there is discrimination of boys in public schools, either deliberately or unintentionally.
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Old 07-03-2007, 07:18 PM   #39
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Quote:
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The school system is not singling out males. They are not mistreating them. They are simply doing exactly what they have been doing for years: Running a crappy education system to get kids through school. (snipped for brevity) But I went to the newest High School in the district. Brand New. Less than 5 years old. Best teachers, best books, best computers, best everything in the entire area. The guys still failed. Girls still failed. Boys still passed. Girls still passed. I have seen some really really really crappy schools in the area. Classes that are made of cardboard boxes stapled into walls. People still passed, and still failed in both genders.
You're right. A lot of children these days are spoiled and don't care about schoolwork, and there are a few in my high school that do such, though I go to a good school, so there are few of those people.

In my school, the school works it teachers to both genders' strengths. I'm in the accelarated group, which is made upof almost equal amount of girls and boys.

Quote:
The people who passed earned it. The people who failed earned it. And the people who failed did so of their own free will. The people who passed did so of their own free will.

Thats my opinion.
This I agree with. My great grandfather was raised up in a small village in India, and there was only one, single-building, school in the entire village. His father died of the plague when he was seven. The school had few facilities, no computers, no electricity, very few books, overcrowded number of students, not enough money for enough uniforms, and things like that.

Yet he worked hard, went to college, and ontop of that gota doctor's degree. It doesn't matter what school you go to in the end, but how hard you work.


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Old 07-03-2007, 09:25 PM   #40
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So you're saying boys are lazier than girls? Cause that's what it looks like you're saying. As a guy I take offense to that especially since due to my disabilities I've had to work 3 times harder than the average student to show my potential.


Seriously, if it were just laziness it would be both boys and girls failing at an even rate. It wouldn't be a disproportionate number of boys being put in special ed, compaired to girls. I've seen special ed classes and the schools tried to put me in one and thank goodness my mom threatened to take them to court if they tried cause I'd have been bored to tears, there was about 4 boys to every girl. 80% of the special ed class was boys, and you want to tell me that it's due to laziness!
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