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Old 07-03-2007, 09:28 AM   #1
Maxstate
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Thumbs up We take too many things for granted in OJP

First a little foreword;

The things I'm about to write below might seem to be very much like the ideas we have already discussed, have threads for, etc. etc. Before that kind of talk starts I'd like to say that it is my feeling that the ideas I'm about to mention are substantially different from the ideas that I and others have mentioned in other skill or ability threads. First of all, these ideas are not 'new' skills, they are simply rewrites of the skills we already have. Secondly, I felt that the previous thread was also starting to smell of typical kinds of politics and spam, so a new one, -in the case that you are not convinced of previous argument-, might be better as to get a fresh, clean slate, and as to let the newcomers AND veterans equally decide on what they like.

Okay.
Reloading, ammo pool, ammo regeneration.

Reloading guns will have a great effect on gameplay and balance, but might prove to be just that more realistic and submersive (gameplay wise) than being able to shoot 300 rounds consecutively, with no pause.

Ideas:

#1:
Ammo pool of 300 bullets with a reload skill that lets you slowly regenerate lost ammo up to 300 bullets, so you have two big "clips".

#2:
Ammo pool of maximum 300 bullets, player starts with 100 disregarding skill level and will have the chance to regenerate ammo to 300 once ingame.

#3:
Maximum ammo pool of 300 bullets, divided by 6 clips of 50 bullets. Regeneration is non-existant, player starts with 100 for level 1, 200 for level 2, 300 for level 3 and can buy additional ammo with a seperate skill. I mean, if one clip can hold 300 bullets, then another can as well right? rolleyes

#4:
Ammo is regenerated through shield points with a ratio of x:x over a period of time.

Gunning skills:
There are A LOT of things that have been added and that are not being used correctly or are being taken for granted as something you get for free. i hope that in the oncoming versions we might be able to correct some of these 'mistakes' if we can all agree on what to do with them. These are the things I've seen, and didn't like:

Shooting from the ground:
Should be either a seperate skill that can be bought, or should come with level 3 of a weapon.

Pistol stun:
Should be a level 3 power, considering this thing has infinite ammo and allows you to floor jedi by spending only a single point...

Secondary fires:
E-11:
Level 3 should have a burst fire secondary.

Thermals:
Primary fire : 4 seconds 'till explosion.
Secondary fire: 2 seconds 'till explosion.


Snapthrow:
We fixed blob's obvious imbalance issues and reinstated a 3-punch I-win button for almost the same price? What is this? Quake?
The grenades should not explode on impact, but should either have a 1 second timer or a 2 second timer with the benefit of exploding if it hits a player.

The Flamer:
Is a nifty tool that I do not want to see taken out of use. I've been big on getting it nerfed, and as far as that goes, it has. But we might have overdone it a little. I suggest we maybe tone down the amount of jetfuel it uses, so it doesn't drain as fast anymore but give it a limit on where it can be used. For example, the jetfuel bar should be at least at 2/8 for it to be used, below that, it won't work. I also suggest we give it a bit of a smaller range, as it is now the range of lightning it seems, both width and length.

The seeker:
Hopefully we'll take up Rusty's idea and give the pistol secondary to the seeker, albeit a more toned down version. The thing should be support and not a killing machine.

The sentry:
It still can't be killed by deflecting it's own shots back at it, I have a ticket for this. Other than that we should give gunners the ability to pick it up, but put a cooldown on this so it can't be abused.

Gun lethality:
Needs a boost. 2 shots to an unguarded, unshielded and partially/none-dodged person should be more than enough to kill them.

Ammo:
Seperately buyable ammo skills are needed.

Shield Bonus for unspent points:
Should be doubled after the gunner buys a skill that comes available after purchasing the Forcefield.

General skills and issues
Rockets, detpacks and thermals need a BIG damage increase. They are already very hard to land as it is and they should leave a jedi limp and busted if not instakill them when used correctly.

Jedi attacking a gunner and getting shot need to be forced into the deflection animation for at least a second or TWO before they can swing again, this is more than fair for a well-aiming gunner.

Falling damage STILL needs a boost. I can jump off the highest building in that matrix map and still have 46 HP.

Jedi skills
Dodging:
Jump-dodge:
Frequently happens when an explosive lands near your feet but it is quite random, I suggest that this be user-controlled when the user has Seeing level 2 and holds Force Jump before/during an explosive knockdown.

Auto-Push:
Level 3 seeing power, only works if aimed at the projectile.

Jump:
Less forward momentum and more height.

Kick:
Should be slowed down a bit(abused a lot) - I can take care of this.

Partial dodging:
We need to try and get rid of this, if you run out of DP you're dead, that's it. This is more of an idea to help gunners than jedi, because saberdmgscale works well for saber attacks.

Force Fall:
Needs to be a buyable skill, combined with the falling damage it should see more widespread use.

Force push/pull counter-animation:
Is being abused in saber duels as well as anti gunning battles. It needs to go, if someone has the power to psychokinetically fling your body away, putting your arm infront of your eyes is not going to stop them. If they lack that power, you should show some macho-ness and brace it like a man.

--

That's all I can think of now, I'll probably add more when I get back from work tonight!

Comments/etc.

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Old 07-04-2007, 02:53 PM   #2
Wytchking
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Quote:
Jump:
Less forward momentum and more height.
I have always felt that there should be two types of jump, one forward (momentum) and one up (height), up when standing still and forward when running forward.

Quote:
#3:
Maximum ammo pool of 300 bullets, divided by 6 clips of 50 bullets. Regeneration is non-existant, player starts with 100 for level 1, 200 for level 2, 300 for level 3 and can buy additional ammo with a seperate skill. I mean, if one clip can hold 300 bullets, then another can as well right? rolleyes
I personaly agree with this and feel like this is the most "realistic" if that word applies in Star Wars

Quote:
Pistol stun:
Should be a level 3 power, considering this thing has infinite ammo and allows you to floor jedi by spending only a single point...
I feel this should be given to the E-11 to tie in with A New Hope, and the pistol should do a burstfire of three shot's

Quote:
Kick:
Should be slowed down a bit(abused a lot) - I can take care of this.
I don't agree with this as kick is hard enough to land as it is (hitboxes?)
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Old 07-04-2007, 04:26 PM   #3
madcatmach2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wytchking
I have always felt that there should be two types of jump, one forward (momentum) and one up (height), up when standing still and forward when running forward.
see that just defies the laws of physics since horizontal motion and vertical motion are completely independent from each other so the way to jump the farthest is always to jump as high as possible giving you more time in are allowing you to travel forward more

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Old 07-04-2007, 06:24 PM   #4
Yango
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madcatmach2
see that just defies the laws of physics since horizontal motion and vertical motion are completely independent from each other so the way to jump the farthest is always to jump as high as possible giving you more time in are allowing you to travel forward more
Until you use force laws of physics doesn't apply that much.
Usually you would adjust the angle to get expected height and distance but I believe that in JA it doesn't work like that, the height is always the same. So, separating direction jumping from vertical jumping wouldn't be that bad. You remember those jedi's jumping up after choosing the side of force when you had to get on a big pillar by pulling those blocks in wall? You could use this animation.
It would be nice to make jump a bit jetpack-like cause it's the same in the end - it's putting additional force on you in air.
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Old 07-05-2007, 02:21 AM   #5
Lathain Valtiel
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Uh... wasn't jump dodge axed? I distinctly remember a dodge involving jumping up away from an explosive was removed.


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Old 07-05-2007, 02:56 PM   #6
razorace
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yeah, it was axed.


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Old 07-06-2007, 02:28 AM   #7
keshire
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Quote:
if someone has the power to psychokinetically fling your body away, putting your arm infront of your eyes is not going to stop them. If they lack that power, you should show some macho-ness and brace it like a man.
Anakin braced himself against a force push by Assaj in the cartoon. He was running at full sprint though. For all intents and purposes it seems they levitate the object their throwing and send it flying with a wave of energy. Which is why most things always move in a straight line when pushed/pulled. This is just my observation though.

Quote:
Reloading guns will have a great effect on gameplay and balance, but might prove to be just that more realistic and submersive (gameplay wise) than being able to shoot 300 rounds consecutively, with no pause.
Reloading can have little or no impact on gameplay. Depends on how far you want to go up the realism chain.
Clips or Battery? (Packed clips, or loss of remaining
Animated Reloads?

With either one your going to be introducing delays before they can fire again. Clips more so than a battery. Same with animated reloads.

Not sure if any thought was put towards that, but since I didn't see it....


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Old 07-06-2007, 06:35 AM   #8
Maxstate
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keshire
Anakin braced himself against a force push by Assaj in the cartoon. He was running at full sprint though. For all intents and purposes it seems they levitate the object their throwing and send it flying with a wave of energy. Which is why most things always move in a straight line when pushed/pulled. This is just my observation though.
True true, I was just trying to illustrate how dumb the current way of "defending" yourself is. The point I was trying to make is that, if these people have the power to lift massive rocks, they have the power to lift your body. Raising your arm infront of your eyes will not actually withstand their Force, regardless of what kind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by keshire
Reloading can have little or no impact on gameplay. Depends on how far you want to go up the realism chain.
Clips or Battery? (Packed clips, or loss of remaining
Animated Reloads?
There is no way that with our current gameplay reloading would have "little or no" impact. Gunners' main advantage is that with their gun skill maxed out they can fire almost a continous stream of rounds at the jedi keeping them at bay. I've shown to each and every one of my betatesters, and Hockney, Darthdie and Tanqexe that with proper aim a Jedi won't be able to come close without either having some luck or extremely skillful use of certain abilities.

It is our compiled opinion that the gunners' current pro is in direct connection with their con, from a Jedi perspective. I like how it is now, especially with a modified g_speed it's fun to just whack a Jedi with a few well aimed shots and cripple them slowly. But gunners have become SO good that they've forgotten all about the nerf that was implemented to counter such things; on level 3 guns not even running and shooting at the same time bothers their mishap and/or accuracy, which I'd like to see changed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by keshire
With either one your going to be introducing delays before they can fire again. Clips more so than a battery. Same with animated reloads.
This is a stunning conclusion about reloading.
The question here is whether OJP fits your problem. In comparison to MB, OJP gunners (and hybrids) are not limited to a single all-purpose weapon, so this actually re-affirms my idea of reloading being more of a tactical, realistic gameplay element. It will be a big annoyance of low-skill gunners, but as they progress they'll buy new weapons that they can use when their other one runs out. If a jedi stays on target for long enough and SURVIVES, they should get the kill. This is ofcourse with the pre-assumption that gunners will have 100% accurate aim, so take "OMG GUNNERS HARD2BEET" with a grain of salt

Quote:
Originally Posted by keshurrrr
Not sure if any thought was put towards that, but since I didn't see it....
Word.

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Old 07-06-2007, 06:58 AM   #9
keshire
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxstate
re-affirms my idea of reloading being more of a tactical, realistic gameplay element.
Very much so. As soon as someone is "seen" to be reloading their dead. Depending on the skill and speed of the person that is now attacking them.

It's not so much a problem as a gameplay element. Anytime a person is unable to defend themselves they die. In MB2 this gap is a blink of the eye. And with last man standing and 5 minute rounds this is acceptable.


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Old 07-06-2007, 03:10 PM   #10
razorace
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It's Keshire! Hi Keshire! How's it hangin?


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Old 07-09-2007, 01:05 AM   #11
keshire
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Quote:
Originally Posted by razorace
It's Keshire! Hi Keshire! How's it hangin?
Decent enough. A conversation on the MB2 forums reminded me to check out how things were going here.


Apathy Cannot Inspire.
Ambivalence cannot lead.
Loved me. Feared me.
Changed me. Killed me.
Anything would be something.
But nothing is worst of all.
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Old 07-13-2007, 09:32 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keshire
Very much so. As soon as someone is "seen" to be reloading their dead. Depending on the skill and speed of the person that is now attacking them.

It's not so much a problem as a gameplay element. Anytime a person is unable to defend themselves they die. In MB2 this gap is a blink of the eye. And with last man standing and 5 minute rounds this is acceptable.

This is very true, but the difference with OJP is that the reloading doesn't *have* to take as long as MB2's Reloading. It could be done via an animation of replacing the ammo clip of whatever gun you're using (Like in BattleFront 1/2), which is a little bit of a break between shooting, but not for a really long time, like in MB, which is also pretty noisy, to alert the enemy that you're reloading.



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