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Old 08-15-2007, 10:45 PM   #1
Achilles
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Rudy Giuliani on Immigration

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Hmmm....
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Old 08-16-2007, 12:16 AM   #2
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And that is why, short of another terror attack(which isn't all that unlikely), whoever the Democrats nominate will be a shoe-in at the general election.

Although I'm still hoping that Ron Paul can somehow pull off the nomination...





Wer mit Ungeheuern kämpft, mag zusehn, dass er nicht dabei zum Ungeheuer wird. Und wenn du lange in einen Abgrund blickst, blickt der Abgrund auch in dich hinein. -Friedrich Nietzsche, Jenseits von Gut und Böse
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Old 08-16-2007, 12:23 AM   #3
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^Ron Paul spammer maybe? Like I'll always say...Ron Paul: Internet Favorite, General Public Unknown and Unwanted.



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Old 08-16-2007, 12:32 AM   #4
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And that is why, short of another terror attack(which isn't all that unlikely), whoever the Democrats nominate will be a shoe-in at the general election.
Or a Bloomberg candiancy. If Bloomberg runs for election (and he will do so if both parties elect radicals) and seizes a pretty large state, like say, New York, and if the Democrats control the House of Reps, then Bloomberg can be pretty tempted to just make a sly deal on the side to send his electroal votes over to the Republican candinacy...for a price of course (price being that the Republicans have to be Bloomberg's puppets).


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Onion
"The Cambodian government has established many exciting-sounding 're-education camps' where both intellectuals and everyday citizens can be sent at any time," Day said. Well, we at Barnes & Noble have always supported re-education in America, and we intend to extend this policy to our new customers." For every hardcover book sold, Barnes & Noble will donate a dollar to the Cambodian government to help re-educate local children.
Full Article Here
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Old 08-16-2007, 12:37 AM   #5
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http://www.nysun.com/article/60575

flip flopping away, the bane of all/most politicians.


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Old 08-16-2007, 05:00 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by urluckyday
^Ron Paul spammer maybe?
Hardly. I'm just sick of Neoconservatives

I really don't see ANYONE in this race that I actually like.





Wer mit Ungeheuern kämpft, mag zusehn, dass er nicht dabei zum Ungeheuer wird. Und wenn du lange in einen Abgrund blickst, blickt der Abgrund auch in dich hinein. -Friedrich Nietzsche, Jenseits von Gut und Böse
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Old 08-16-2007, 05:08 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urluckyday
Like I'll always say...Ron Paul: Internet Favorite, General Public Unknown and Unwanted.
No unknown to me as he is my congressman, but he is unwanted to me for that same reason. I like the man and he seems to be a better gynecologist than congressman. Gold standard...enough said... He once voted against a bill to dredge a local harbor, saying that Dow Chemical should do it and pay for it. Even I know that only the Army Corps of Engineers can dredge a navigable waterway. It passed, but no thanks to our own congressman.

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Originally Posted by John Galt
And that is why, short of another terror attack(which isn't all that unlikely), whoever the Democrats nominate will be a shoe-in at the general election.
Securing the borders is my number one campaign issue, until we secure our borders we can not truly fight terrorism and are only giving it lip service. I’m all for legal immigration, but believe allowing illegal immigrates to stay is terrible unfair to those law abiding immigrates that did it the right way. I hate to break up families, but the illegal immigrates did that themselves when the broke the law by coming here illegally.

Last edited by mimartin; 08-16-2007 at 05:27 PM.
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Old 08-16-2007, 05:30 PM   #8
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That just proves in my opinion how crooked politicians really are.

Just trying to get votes with empty promises which are unrealistic as well.

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Old 08-16-2007, 05:59 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mimartin
I’m all for legal immigration, but believe allowing illegal immigrates to stay is terrible unfair to those law abiding immigrates that did it the right way. I hate to break up families, but the illegal immigrates did that themselves when the broke the law by coming here illegally.
Hmmm...good food for thought.

While I acknowledge that this sentiment is correct for many reasons, I can't help but feel that is similarly incorrect for others. No question that it is inequitable that some people obtained their residency legally while others did not. Is that because they are uniformly bad people? Is it a little hypocritical that we boast to be a melting pot, the land of the free but place restrictions on access to a country that is not natively ours in the first place?

Understanding that many of these people come here to do jobs that we don't want so that their families can have the basic necessities and sacrifice their own freedom to do so, would we feel better knowing that people died because our exclusionary policies?

To me, it seems that there are multiple facets to this problem and the solution is not as clear-cut as some of us would like. While we cannot in good consciousness ignore the legal aspects of the issue, we should not forgo our humanity by ignoring the moral aspects either.

Thanks for your post.
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Old 08-16-2007, 06:12 PM   #10
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Increase the quotas. Once we do so, we can increase the amount of legal immigration and decrease the amount of illegal immigration. After all, legal immigration is good, and illegal immigration is bad, so if we just make it easier to immigrate legally, then everything is fine, right?

[Yes, this is a stalking horse question to lead you into something else I want to argue with...but it is an idea that has been in my head. And I actually like this idea. Make it easier to immigrate.]


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Onion
"The Cambodian government has established many exciting-sounding 're-education camps' where both intellectuals and everyday citizens can be sent at any time," Day said. Well, we at Barnes & Noble have always supported re-education in America, and we intend to extend this policy to our new customers." For every hardcover book sold, Barnes & Noble will donate a dollar to the Cambodian government to help re-educate local children.
Full Article Here
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Old 08-17-2007, 03:26 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Hmmm...good food for thought.

While I acknowledge that this sentiment is correct for many reasons, I can't help but feel that is similarly incorrect for others. No question that it is inequitable that some people obtained their residency legally while others did not. Is that because they are uniformly bad people? Is it a little hypocritical that we boast to be a melting pot, the land of the free but place restrictions on access to a country that is not natively ours in the first place?

Understanding that many of these people come here to do jobs that we don't want so that their families can have the basic necessities and sacrifice their own freedom to do so, would we feel better knowing that people died because our exclusionary policies?

To me, it seems that there are multiple facets to this problem and the solution is not as clear-cut as some of us would like. While we cannot in good consciousness ignore the legal aspects of the issue, we should not forgo our humanity by ignoring the moral aspects either.

Thanks for your post.

Sorry to say, but this is hardly relevant and entirely moot. Most major countries are the result of mass migrations, invasions, etc.. and no longer are their inhabitants homogenously "indigenous". It is not immoral for a nation to try and control migration into its borders. Citizens take precedence and its resources are not limitless. In the case of illegal Mexican immigrants, it is quite hypocritical for the Mexican govenrment to get its knickers in a knot when it exercises tight control of it southern border, all the while encouraging its own citizens to leech off the benefits from the gringos up north, thus providing the Mex govt with it's second highest source of foreign revenue. Not providing illegal migrants with illicit revenue is neither immoral or even inhumane. Also, that old saw about their coming up here to do jobs Americans won't do is a lie. The statement should include the caveat.. at a price most Americans wouldn't debase themself for in the first place. Nor does it take into account that many illegals also work jobs that Americans traditionally have done (construction, carpet laying, meat plants, etc..), but are now priced out of the market by a much cheaper labor supply. Also, don't forget, many of these people aren't even trying to "melt in" anyway.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
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Old 08-19-2007, 08:48 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
No question that it is inequitable that some people obtained their residency legally while others did not. Is that because they are uniformly bad people?
No they are not uniformly bad people, if anything the ones I know personally are uniformly good, hard working people. I hope I did not give that impression of looking down on them for anything but committing a crime against my country. Some of the best most thoughtful people I know, their family came to this country illegally. One of my best friends grandfather tell us the story every Christmas of how he swam the Rio Grande. He’ll also tell you the happy moment of his life is when he stopped living in the shadows and he became a U.S. citizen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Is it a little hypocritical that we boast to be a melting pot, the land of the free but place restrictions on access to a country that is not natively ours in the first place?
It is just a little hard to keep accepting unskilled workers when we are shipping our manufacturing off shore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Understanding that many of these people come here to do jobs that we don't want so that their families can have the basic necessities and sacrifice their own freedom to do so, would we feel better knowing that people died because our exclusionary policies?
No, I would not feel well knowing that out exclusionary policies were causing the death of anyone. I would feel better knowing that our borders, ports and airport were secure preventing those that hate this country from entering and killing our citizens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
To me, it seems that there are multiple facets to this problem and the solution is not as clear-cut as some of us would like. While we cannot in good consciousness ignore the legal aspects of the issue, we should not forgo our humanity by ignoring the moral aspects either.
Agreed this is a multi faceted issue and the solution must be just as complex, but the priority since 9/11 should be to secure our borders for security reasons. Anyone entering this country must be documented and not made to live out of sight of society. I understand that even placing arm soldiers on the border will not prevent illegal people from entering this country illegally (Berlin Wall). However the U.S. government’s open invitation to terrorist must stop and that can only be done by securing our borders.

Then the people in Washington can decide what to do about the illegal immigrants. More then likely repeat history by giving them amnesty and then 20 years from now this county will be having the same debate about what to do with the next wave of illegal immigrants. Amnesty does noting to solve the problem only puts it off for the next generation to handle.

I was taught crime does not pay, but I guess that was just another old wise tale my grandmother told me.
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Old 08-19-2007, 09:27 PM   #13
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Personally I think that the entire illegal immigration issue is a symptom of a larger underlying problem: the need for meaningful welfare reform. There must be a way to get all those jobs that "Americans just won't do" done without illegal immigrants for unskilled labor, because we must have done it it a some point...





Wer mit Ungeheuern kämpft, mag zusehn, dass er nicht dabei zum Ungeheuer wird. Und wenn du lange in einen Abgrund blickst, blickt der Abgrund auch in dich hinein. -Friedrich Nietzsche, Jenseits von Gut und Böse
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Old 08-19-2007, 11:58 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mimartin
No they are not uniformly bad people, if anything the ones I know personally are uniformly good, hard working people.
This has been my experience as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mimartin
He’ll also tell you the happy moment of his life is when he stopped living in the shadows and he became a U.S. citizen.
No doubt. Most of the legal immigrants that I know echo this sentiment. Most of the illegal immigrants that I know similarly speak about having to exist in the shadows.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mimartin
It is just a little hard to keep accepting unskilled workers when we are shipping our manufacturing off shore.
I don't know. Living in AZ all my life, I tend to think in terms of crop pickers/farm workers, janitors, short-order cooks, dishwashers, landscapers, etc. Sure I've also worked with people in manufacturing jobs, but these were local small business, not national corporations.

Minimum wage is minimum wage and citizenship is citizenship (whether proof of that citizenship is faked is another topic). It's been my experience that the reason why immigrants have these jobs is that immigrants are willing to do them.

And still, the exclusionary tack seems hypocritical considering that we are a nation of immigrants that previously believed in setting an example for freedom.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mimartin
No, I would not feel well knowing that out exclusionary policies were causing the death of anyone. I would feel better knowing that our borders, ports and airport were secure preventing those that hate this country from entering and killing our citizens.
As would I. I think this highlights the fact that we are dealing with two problems, not one (immigration and border security).

Adopting draconian immigration policies might succeed in giving us a false sense of (border) security, but it's not a real solution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mimartin
Agreed this is a multi faceted issue and the solution must be just as complex, but the priority since 9/11 should be to secure our borders for security reasons. Anyone entering this country must be documented and not made to live out of sight of society. I understand that even placing arm soldiers on the border will not prevent illegal people from entering this country illegally (Berlin Wall). However the U.S. government’s open invitation to terrorist must stop and that can only be done by securing our borders.
Agreed. The problem is that lately the rhetoric has been "immigration/oh yeah...and border security). Personally, I don't see immigration reform (alone) as anything more than a diversionary tactic. In other word, our current course of action could be making the problem worse instead of better by muddying the waters so that nothing gets done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Galt
Personally I think that the entire illegal immigration issue is a symptom of a larger underlying problem: the need for meaningful welfare reform. There must be a way to get all those jobs that "Americans just won't do" done without illegal immigrants for unskilled labor, because we must have done it it a some point...
Colonial development = african slaves. Industrial boom = european immigrants. Railroad system = chinese immigrants. Civil war = irish immigrants. Interstate system = mexican immigrants. Not to mention use of the penal system for cheap labor during different parts of our history, etc, etc.
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Old 08-21-2007, 02:15 PM   #15
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New clip with more info. Enjoy.
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Old 08-21-2007, 10:33 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
New clip with more info. Enjoy.
Is it bad that I agree with both of his speeches? I don’t really believe the flip-flop is that bad as my views on the borders changed on 09/11/2001, although it sounds to me like he wants to pull a Chaney and get richer should we elect him President.
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