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Old 08-30-2007, 10:40 PM   #41
Web Rider
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcesious
I came to forums originally out of wanting to be more independent- skipping through about five forum sites until finally settling at this one, and eventually through that, i foudn the purpose that i would do is try to bring people to God, since almost everyone i know and coem in contact with is a Christian, and i wanted to bring others to Christ, and that is what i'm attempting to do now. I no longer coem on forums to discuss randomt higns to be indepenedent- i coem to them since they are the onyl way this moment for me to witness to others about the truth is see in God. (that, and to ask questions about games i play)
Not to be rude, but if it comes across as such, I'm honestly not going to apologize for it. But let me see if I can sum this up pretty simply, cleanly and clearly.

Kavar's Corner in particular on the KOTOR and Star Wars forums, is a debate forum. We are here to challenge each other's views, and be corrected or vindicated on them, and all shades in between. By extension, with the possible exception of the "talk about anything forum", none of these forms as far as I know are for proselytizing. If you don't know what that word is, look it up, it's what you're doing.

We are not here to find God. We are not here to find religion, and at least I personally, do not like you're continued, and often "well, if you don't believe, then you're stupid." approach to conversion. I ask you politely, as a member of this forum, to please stop. If you're not interested in debate in which your views may be challenged, then this probly isn't the forum for you. If you think we're stupid for not believing, you're more than welcome to you're opinion, but keep it to yourself.

Back on topic, I would like to take issue with TK's statement.
Quote:
It's not so much fear as it is weakness. Religion is a crutch. Anyone who used to be an atheist and became a believer does not have the mental willpower to exist on their own without the guidance of a god, and fear is one among other factors that are what lead to said person's taking up of a religion.
While I often agree that religion is as you put it, a "crutch" on which people rely, much like a drug, I don't think that this is really accurate. As you continue to say, extenuating circumstances, such as life+death experiances, can make people feel "small" and turn to religion(or drugs, or whatever). Since I personally think there is, at present, no more proof in favor of God than there is against God(or any omnipotent being), I wouldn't quickly lump all religion into this category. Buddhism for example is not a belief in a higher power, but a path to bettering yourself by a guy who supposedly "ascended". Other religions get similar reactions and yoiu can probly figure out which they are for yourself.

But I do generally agree that the average person, or the average atheist in question who turns to mainstream judeo-christian or other monolithic/monotheistic religions does so out of a desire to be praised to their good deeds, or their inability to take life as "all you get".


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Old 08-31-2007, 12:47 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Arcesious
The bible says to preach god's word, and i may be 15,
Somehow, I knew, even before you said it, that you were a recent convert in your mid-teens. I was just as overzealous as you when I was that age. It'll take a few years for you to mellow out and not drive others away with your zeal. Right now, your mission in life is self-defeating.

All right folks, let's stay on topic. Arcesious, this is not a thread on or for proselytizing--that's off-topic. People are going to make up their own minds, you can't force them to have or not have faith, nor is there room here for being judgmental about those decisions. Everyone else, discussing Arcesious' attempts at proselytizing and making judgments about that are likewise off-topic. Feel free to use the report post feature if you're having an issue with a post. --Jae


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Old 08-31-2007, 01:11 AM   #43
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From what I've read from C.S. Lewis and Dr. Collins, both of whom were atheists before becoming Christians, the question came down to meaning in life. If they really were nothing more than a bag of chemicals that 'dance to their genes', then ultimately life had no meaning. It just 'is', and they were nothing more than a momentary blip in the great cosmic nothingness, and life had no intrinsic value. C.S. Lewis decided that if the world was reduced to nothing but material reality, then life was nothing more than a vacuum where people spend time dodging emptiness.

Josh McDowell and Lee Strobel were a couple atheists who set out to debunk Christianity and instead found the arguments and evidence for Christianity so compelling that they had no choice but to believe.

These four have all told their stories in their various books, and there are many others who have moved from atheism to theism and Christianity, not out of fear or using religion as a crutch, but because it provided a level of meaning and purpose that a naturalistic worldview could never provide, or because the evidence provided for no other reasonable conclusions.


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Old 08-31-2007, 02:42 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
From what I've read from C.S. Lewis and Dr. Collins, both of whom were atheists before becoming Christians, the question came down to meaning in life. If they really were nothing more than a bag of chemicals that 'dance to their genes', then ultimately life had no meaning. It just 'is', and they were nothing more than a momentary blip in the great cosmic nothingness, and life had no intrinsic value. C.S. Lewis decided that if the world was reduced to nothing but material reality, then life was nothing more than a vacuum where people spend time dodging emptiness.
Well that seems to impart a rather morose spin on things, but essentially that sounds about right. If adopting a facade of higher purpose and abdicating their responsibility to find their own helped them, I suppose I should be ok with that, but deep down I can't ignore that they've inspired others to do the same. And that's just wrong in my book.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
Josh McDowell and Lee Strobel were a couple atheists who set out to debunk Christianity and instead found the arguments and evidence for Christianity so compelling that they had no choice but to believe.
It's a bummer that they haven't seen fit to share this evidence with others so that they can be similarly overwhelmed by the truth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
These four have all told their stories in their various books, and there are many others who have moved from atheism to theism and Christianity, not out of fear or using religion as a crutch, but because it provided a level of meaning and purpose that a naturalistic worldview could never provide, or because the evidence provided for no other reasonable conclusions.
That's a very interesting conclusion. On what basis do you presume to know the motivations of all the others that have "moved from atheism to theism and Christianity"?
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Old 08-31-2007, 02:55 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
That's a very interesting conclusion. On what basis do you presume to know the motivations of all the others that have "moved from atheism to theism and Christianity"?
I never said 'all' for precisely the reason that there is no way to know 'all' motivations. The stories I've read in books and online indicate that these 2 things tend to dominate (with quest for meaning being the more common of the two). It's the author's conclusions on how _they_ came to faith.


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Old 08-31-2007, 12:39 PM   #46
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Is it really that we need to have a meaning in life? Isn't it enough that we should take care of ourselves as species and ensure our forthcome and the continuance of life itself within this universe? I consider this a very honorable and interesting task.
Is that a good thing though? Somehow, trampling all over the universe and taking over everything doesn't sound...uh...fun...especially when said planets run out of resources and we have to do the exact same thing again. I don't really see why I need to take care of the human race (since I don't exactly like human nature), and I surely don't want to have some "humoncentric" view that the human race is awesome and HAVE TO BE PROTECTED, and saving the human race can get boring when you have to do it over, and over, and over...

So, nah.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Onion
"The Cambodian government has established many exciting-sounding 're-education camps' where both intellectuals and everyday citizens can be sent at any time," Day said. Well, we at Barnes & Noble have always supported re-education in America, and we intend to extend this policy to our new customers." For every hardcover book sold, Barnes & Noble will donate a dollar to the Cambodian government to help re-educate local children.
Full Article Here
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Old 08-31-2007, 03:56 PM   #47
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Okay I'll rephrase.

Life itself strives to spread itself to whereever possible. Every lifeform exists because of this, and to do so for their entire existence. Human beings included. The question HOW life spreads is not or less important. When a way of spreading fails, it may cause extinction of species, whole habitats may be destroyed. Who doesn't fit or cannot adapt is out. Including us humans. But it doesn't matter. Life's history shows us it's only a question of time until the gaps are filled again.

However, that implies that we can't stop extinction of species, nor the change of their habitats. What we can do is show responsibility for us and our environment in order to keep us going as long as possible.

So in case we keep doing the "wrong" thing again and again, we're out, period.


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Old 08-31-2007, 05:43 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Web Rider
While I often agree that religion is as you put it, a "crutch" on which people rely, much like a drug, I don't think that this is really accurate. As you continue to say, extenuating circumstances, such as life+death experiances, can make people feel "small" and turn to religion(or drugs, or whatever). Since I personally think there is, at present, no more proof in favor of God than there is against God(or any omnipotent being), I wouldn't quickly lump all religion into this category.

But I do generally agree that the average person, or the average atheist in question who turns to mainstream judeo-christian or other monolithic/monotheistic religions does so out of a desire to be praised to their good deeds, or their inability to take life as "all you get".
Well said as a person of faith I actually agree with your statement here Web Rider. I wouldn’t believe a true atheist would every come to believe in faith for “praise of their good deeds,” the rest does make sense to me. Personally I believe doing good deeds merely for praise or recognition is selfish and self-centered.

FWIW, I’m way north of 15 with 2 college degrees and I still had to look up the meaning of proselytizing.
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Old 08-31-2007, 08:46 PM   #49
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Life itself strives to spread itself to whereever possible. Every lifeform exists because of this, and to do so for their entire existence. Human beings included. The question HOW life spreads is not or less important. When a way of spreading fails, it may cause extinction of species, whole habitats may be destroyed. Who doesn't fit or cannot adapt is out. Including us humans. But it doesn't matter. Life's history shows us it's only a question of time until the gaps are filled again.
Ah, but unlike other lifeforms, we got a little thing known as "intellect". We know about how life grows and spread and everything. We know about evolution, and we know that life exist solely to go and spread.

And we have the power to NOT do such a thing, to turn away from our nature and defy it. To go and say, "You know what? I don't see the point of having the human race live endlessly just so that we can live endlessly, an endless pyramid scheme that really begs to be toppled". The goal of evolution is to produce the species that can exist in an enviroment and breed, but what do we do with that species? What can that species really do? You can argue that we shouldn't worry about that, and only worry about life, which may be true, but then you get back to that boredom issue.

I'm not really caring about the emptiness of life, what I really care about is how boring it would be to have to continue to breed and evolve and adapt to the enviroment forever. About as interesting as watching paint dry, once you know the cycle, once you know the tricks, once you are able to surivie. Then you must ask, "Alright, now what?"

In Galapogos, by Kurt Vonngeut, he makes the argument that bacterium is the most succesful species evolutionary, as they are simple, can reproduce quickly, and evovle easily. There are much more bacteria in the world than they are humans. But, we don't really honor bacterium, do we?


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Onion
"The Cambodian government has established many exciting-sounding 're-education camps' where both intellectuals and everyday citizens can be sent at any time," Day said. Well, we at Barnes & Noble have always supported re-education in America, and we intend to extend this policy to our new customers." For every hardcover book sold, Barnes & Noble will donate a dollar to the Cambodian government to help re-educate local children.
Full Article Here
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Old 09-01-2007, 10:44 AM   #50
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Posts that bifurcated to the topic of justification by faith or works have been split to the Justification by faith or works? thread. Please continue discussion of why atheists become people of faith here and the specific concepts of salvation/justification by faith and works in the new thread. Thanks.


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Old 09-01-2007, 03:05 PM   #51
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Hey LF Mod Squad, I think there was one post too much transfered to the "justification" thread. It is #3 in the other thread, by SilentScope001. Thank you.

(I will reply when I am in front of a PC, writing with my mobile phone atm :P)


Mod note: Fixed, I've moved that post back into this thread. ~M



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Old 09-03-2007, 08:27 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Ah, but unlike other lifeforms, we got a little thing known as "intellect".
Other lifeforms own this attribute as well.

Quote:
We know about how life grows and spread and everything. We know about evolution, and we know that life exist solely to go and spread.
Do we really know that it does exist to go and spread? I don't think so. I think we know: it does exist and one of its attributes is that it does spread. Why it exists is beyond my knowledge.

I assume it exists for the same reasons like everything else: because it's possible.

Quote:
And we have the power to NOT do such a thing, to turn away from our nature and defy it. To go and say, "You know what? I don't see the point of having the human race live endlessly just so that we can live endlessly, an endless pyramid scheme that really begs to be toppled".
Yes, everybody is able to say "I want to stop that! It's so stupid!", but I daresay that we'll have a tough time to eventually stop humans (each on their own) from breeding. If we really could do that, and intentionally stop ourselves from going on, then we're nothing but a evolutionary mistake. A species that does not (want to) create offspring at the end of the day contradicts the very definition of life.

Quote:
The goal of evolution is to produce the species that can exist in an enviroment and breed, but what do we do with that species? What can that species really do? You can argue that we shouldn't worry about that, and only worry about life, which may be true, but then you get back to that boredom issue.
Evolution (if ever proven correct) has no goal. In fact, species who found a habitat to breed and live in are the result of evolution (or that what some of us call evolution).

What can a species do? Hm. You know the answer: not really much, except, well, survive, spread life and help to spread life.

Besides that, many species (including us) have developed the ability do craaaazy stuff for their living. So, whenever I throw an eye onto nature I see no boredom. The ways life has found to survive are as manifold as they are bizarre, utmost complex and fragile altogether. Not to mention the places where it happens.

Quote:
I'm not really caring about the emptiness of life, what I really care about is how boring it would be to have to continue to breed and evolve and adapt to the enviroment forever. About as interesting as watching paint dry, once you know the cycle, once you know the tricks, once you are able to surivie. Then you must ask, "Alright, now what?"
Seriously, I doubt that. Boring would mean you could forever foresee what change happens next to the environment to adapt preemptively or something. I don't think that there ever was someone thinking "Pse. Human history nowadays. All that breeding and evolving and stuff. Becomes more boring by the minute."

You cannot totally know the cycle, all the tricks or how to survive forever as long as there is something unknown out there. And regarding the fact that we still have a lot of unknown things here on earth I doubt that we're about to get rid of the "universal unknown" any time soon.

My answer to "Now what?" is clearly "Just turn around."

Quote:
In Galapogos, by Kurt Vonngeut, he makes the argument that bacterium is the most succesful species evolutionary, as they are simple, can reproduce quickly, and evovle easily. There are much more bacteria in the world than they are humans. But, we don't really honor bacterium, do we?
Seeing that we have some of the most amazing environments for life on earth only can exist because of bacterias, or just that the human organism could not live without the symbioses with bacterias, it's pretty dumb not to honour them, isn't it?



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Old 09-03-2007, 04:42 PM   #53
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Alright, gotcha. Thanks for your information.

When I said we have "intellect", I mean we are the only species (that we know of) that is able to study other species and learn about evolution and be able to ponder about it. Sure, it is unlikely we are able to stop the cycle of reproduction, and most humans won't want to anyway, but the fact that we could have the thought of deciding not to do such a thing (even though we will easily dismiss it) does sound like something unique.

I guess I only look at the broader trends rather than the challenges that we have to face in order to live day-to-day...because it looks to me that whatever challenge we'll face, we're likely to beat it (IMHO), which you disagree with, stating that we do not know of the challenges and still find it unknown. (In the end, you find this thing interesting, um, I don't. I'll just chalk it up to values...)

Sort of similar to how I view MMORPGs versus how other people view MMORPGs. I find MMORPGs boring even so they are more challenges, more unknowns, and more quests being added on every minute, due to the fact that there is no real end to strive for and that eventually, you might prevail. Other people however do see it, becuase of the fact that there are more challenges, more unknowns, more quests, and there is a chance you might fail due to PvP or your fellow players beat you to the punch. But it's just a tangent to flesh out my world view. (Might also explain my embracing of religion: The possiblity of an "endgame", so I won't get bored.)

But to each their own viewpoint, which is pretty good. And we do agree on the most basic point: "Life is life." The more you know...

Quote:
Seeing that we have some of the most amazing environments for life on earth only can exist because of bacterias, or just that the human organism could not live without the symbioses with bacterias, it's pretty dumb not to honour them, isn't it?


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Onion
"The Cambodian government has established many exciting-sounding 're-education camps' where both intellectuals and everyday citizens can be sent at any time," Day said. Well, we at Barnes & Noble have always supported re-education in America, and we intend to extend this policy to our new customers." For every hardcover book sold, Barnes & Noble will donate a dollar to the Cambodian government to help re-educate local children.
Full Article Here
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Old 09-04-2007, 09:51 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Sure, it is unlikely we are able to stop the cycle of reproduction, and most humans won't want to anyway, but the fact that we could have the thought of deciding not to do such a thing (even though we will easily dismiss it) does sound like something unique.
Yeah, being able to think like a bunch of human Lemmings sounds somewhat unique. XD

Quote:
because it looks to me that whatever challenge we'll face, we're likely to beat it (IMHO), which you disagree with, stating that we do not know of the challenges and still find it unknown
But does that mean I think we're not gonna beat our challenges eventually? It's just that I don't see how they come bundled with boredom.

Quote:
(In the end, you find this thing interesting, um, I don't. I'll just chalk it up to values...)
I don't know. You're not from the curious kind, are you? Heck, I can even get excited about a new LEGO block and its possibilities.

Quote:
Sort of similar to how I view MMORPGs versus how other people view MMORPGs. I find MMORPGs boring even so they are more challenges, more unknowns, and more quests being added on every minute, due to the fact that there is no real end to strive for and that eventually, you might prevail. Other people however do see it, becuase of the fact that there are more challenges, more unknowns, more quests, and there is a chance you might fail due to PvP or your fellow players beat you to the punch.
MMOOPPDGGDSROFS are entertainment. No matter how complex they are, they don't offer any *real* challenges. From a certain point of view it's all pre-chewed crap. Every game, regardless if real life or computer, is like this.

Quote:
(Might also explain my embracing of religion: The possiblity of an "endgame", so I won't get bored.)
Seriously, the endgame, hence the name, comes at the end. I mean, I'm not really bored today just because of the possibility that when I die I might or might not collapse to a micro black hole.



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Old 09-12-2007, 08:05 AM   #55
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When asked why he became a Catholic, Graham Greene referred back to a point in his life when he began to "doubt my doubt" about the resurrection. I think it depends on the person.

@TK-8252: In my experience, being a Christian is anything but a crutch. It's a crucifix to be carried up your very own Golgotha.



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Old 09-29-2007, 10:51 PM   #56
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I think atheists become people of faith because they simply cannot go throughout life the way that they were, and had to lean on the only One that could help them get over that so to speak "hill" in life.

***I KNOW THAT THIS WAS ALREADY SAID, BUT THIS IS MY OPINION TOO***

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Old 09-30-2007, 11:12 PM   #57
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Well, I converted to get a girl It worked, too. We've been married for 17 years, now.

Actually, I chose to move from agnosticism to Christianity because it was the best way to explain those things that science cannot. I was in college, majoring in microbiology at the time, and I just could not buy the bill of goods they were trying to sell me. These so-called experts on life's origins were presenting "theories" and "scientific laws" that necessitated more faith than did belief in a Creator God. Fortunately, God provided someone to push me toward making a decision one way or the other. I shudder to think what would have happened had I chosen atheism.


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Show me a man who is forty and not a conservative, and I will show you a man with no brain.

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Old 09-30-2007, 11:57 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbo fett 66
Actually, I chose to move from agnosticism to Christianity because it was the best way to explain those things that science cannot.
Could you please expand on this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbo fett 66
I was in college, majoring in microbiology at the time, and I just could not buy the bill of goods they were trying to sell me. These so-called experts on life's origins were presenting "theories" and "scientific laws" that necessitated more faith than did belief in a Creator God.
Without knowing which "theories" and "laws" you're referring to, I'd rather proceed without guessing, however I would like to know why you opted to apply a rigorous expectation to one set of explanations, but not another.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbo fett 66
Fortunately, God provided someone to push me toward making a decision one way or the other. I shudder to think what would have happened had I chosen atheism.
Really? Why?
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Old 10-01-2007, 04:18 AM   #59
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I have one theory: they see atheists parading about a hatred for religion and feel that in the face of such hypocrisies of being moral and ethical they are better off standing for something, religion.
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Old 10-01-2007, 12:45 PM   #60
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I have one theory: they see atheists parading about a hatred for religion and feel that in the face of such hypocrisies of being moral and ethical they are better off standing for something, religion.
Why not just opt to stand for morality and ethical behavior? Seems that making the leap to religion would be a huge, unnecessary step in the wrong direction. I suspect that fear is the true motivator. Fear of being wrong, fear of not being accepted by others, etc. Or in jimbo's case: to get the chicks.
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Old 10-01-2007, 03:49 PM   #61
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......to get the chicks.
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Old 10-01-2007, 11:01 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by jimbo fett 66
Actually, I chose to move from agnosticism to Christianity because it was the best way to explain those things that science cannot.
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Originally Posted by Achilles
Could you please expand on this?
The big thing was ultimate cause. All scientific explanations come down to taking the eternal existence of matter and energy on faith, just as Christianity takes the eternal existence of God on faith. I saw the infinitesimal probability of atoms somehow progressively coalescing into molecules, complex organic molecules, protein chains, and multi-chain proteins, then reproducing themselves because lightning struck in the exact right spot in the primordial soup (in the presence of a reducing atmosphere) to be less believable than a God who created ex nihilo.
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Fortunately, God provided someone to push me toward making a decision one way or the other. I shudder to think what would have happened had I chosen atheism.
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Really? Why?
At the time I met Jae, I was engaging in some self-destructive behaviors. She led me to a faith that helped me see the folly of the path I was headed down. Getting married to her also made me realize that I could not continue acting in that manner because my decisions affected more than just me.
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Or in jimbo's case: to get the chicks.


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Old 10-01-2007, 11:45 PM   #63
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The big thing was ultimate cause. All scientific explanations come down to taking the eternal existence of matter and energy on faith, just as Christianity takes the eternal existence of God on faith.
Personally, I don't equate "not having an answer yet" with taking a conclusion "on faith".

What we still have is a situation where we are applying a rigorous expectation to one model but not another. You're more than welcome to do so, however I just hope that no one has convinced themselves that this is rational thinking.

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Originally Posted by jimbo fett 66
I saw the infinitesimal probability of atoms somehow progressively coalescing into molecules, complex organic molecules, protein chains, and multi-chain proteins, then reproducing themselves because lightning struck in the exact right spot in the primordial soup (in the presence of a reducing atmosphere) to be less believable than a God who created ex nihilo.
So because you personally couldn't think of an answer, that automatically meant that there couldn't possibly be one, except god (an alternative for which we have no evidence and the odds for existence are orders of magnitude more infinitesimal)? Am I summarizing the argument correctly here or did I miss something?

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Originally Posted by jimbo fett 66
At the time I met Jae, I was engaging in some self-destructive behaviors. She led me to a faith that helped me see the folly of the path I was headed down. Getting married to her also made me realize that I could not continue acting in that manner because my decisions affected more than just me.
Kudos to you for making it through. Unfortunately not everyone has the ability to examine their lives and the strength to make life-altering changes (even when they are the good kind).

What your response doesn't tell me though is why it is the thought of being an atheist makes you shudder. I could understand the reaction if your options were your place in life now vs. serial killer or something, but in this context it really does seem out of place.

Take care.
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Old 10-02-2007, 05:30 AM   #64
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Perhaps. One motive to turn to religion however might be to spite the unethical atheist.
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Old 10-02-2007, 05:43 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by jimbo fett 66
At the time I met Jae, I was engaging in some self-destructive behaviors. She led me to a faith that helped me see the folly of the path I was headed down. Getting married to her also made me realize that I could not continue acting in that manner because my decisions affected more than just me.
So, in the end, all it needed wasn't some religion but someone to take care of you, to be there for you, and that what you do affects others? Someone you'd really care about? Hm.

Sounds like a normal post-pubertal development to me.

Almost like .. exactly what I have been through. Yap. Except for the marrying part - I already realised how my decisions would affect others when I made my mama cry.


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Old 10-02-2007, 11:31 AM   #66
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Perhaps. One motive to turn to religion however might be to spite the unethical atheist.
Because doing something out of spite is such a highly ethical behavior?



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Old 10-02-2007, 11:46 AM   #67
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Because doing something out of spite is such a highly ethical behavior?
Took the words right out of my mouth.
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Old 10-02-2007, 02:49 PM   #68
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Quick!! Put them back in, ET. :P


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Old 10-02-2007, 09:26 PM   #69
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Perhaps they are not thinking about being ethical, rather they see atheism as it had been portrayed to them as evil and seek shelter with those who are by default good, religion.
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Old 10-02-2007, 09:47 PM   #70
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Perhaps. One motive to turn to religion however might be to spite the unethical atheist.
Why would we want to waste time and energy on spite when we could be busy doing things like missions/helping run the homeless shelter in our church/helping at-risk kids with schoolwork and so forth? Of all the atheists/agnostics I've talked to about their conversion to faith (in this case Christianity), their reasons generally fell into 2 camps--1. They were on a self-destructive path empty of meaning, and Christ gave them the meaning in life they were looking for. 2. Something happened in their lives that allowed them to experience Christ's love, and they wanted a closer relationship with the divine.


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Old 10-02-2007, 10:15 PM   #71
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2. Something happened in their lives that allowed them to experience Christ's love, and they wanted a closer relationship with the divine.
Hmmm...how do they know that its wasn't the Flying Spaghetti Monster's love and they chose the wrong path? Luckily the FSM isn't a vengeful or jealous god, so he'll probably let them off the hook (...noodly appendage?) for their mistake.
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Old 10-02-2007, 10:20 PM   #72
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Aww, I'm so glad Flying Spaghetti Monster has a noodly...heart of some kind buried there in the sauce and meatballs. More protein for me when I have him for dinner tomorrow night.


From MST3K's spoof of "Hercules Unchained"--heard as Roman medic soldiers carry off an unconscious Greek Hercules on a 1950's Army green canvas stretcher: "Hi, we're IX-I-I. Did somebody dial IX-I-I?"

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Old 10-02-2007, 10:22 PM   #73
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Enjoy your meal.

You didn't answer my question though. We can use invisible pink unicorns or pagan gods if you would prefer. I think the question will still work.
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Old 10-02-2007, 10:35 PM   #74
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The question was just 'why do atheists become people of faith?' and I was sharing my friends' experiences. I don't know how they decided that Flying Spaghetti monster was not divine but God was, since we never spoke about pasta unless they were asking me for my lasagna recipe (which is quite good, but does not approach the Divine). That may be a more appropriate question for the theism/atheism thread, however, or possibly its own thread. I will say that something that is created, cooked up, and comes in a Chef Boy-ar-dee can is more like my idea of hell on earth rather than the Divine Creator of the Universe.


From MST3K's spoof of "Hercules Unchained"--heard as Roman medic soldiers carry off an unconscious Greek Hercules on a 1950's Army green canvas stretcher: "Hi, we're IX-I-I. Did somebody dial IX-I-I?"

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Old 10-02-2007, 10:45 PM   #75
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The question was just 'why do atheists become people of faith?' and I was sharing my friends' experiences. I don't know how they decided that Flying Spaghetti monster was not divine but God was, since we never spoke about pasta unless they were asking me for my lasagna recipe (which is quite good, but does not approach the Divine).
But you said, quite definitively, that it was jesus' love. Surely you have good cause to speak so definitively. Or perhaps you could simply rephrase your statement.

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That may be a more appropriate question for the theism/atheism thread, however, or possibly its own thread.
But you posted your definitive statement about christianity here *confused*.

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I will say that something that is created, cooked up, and comes in a Chef Boy-ar-dee can is more like my idea of hell on earth rather than the Divine Creator of the Universe.
The Flying Spaghetti Monster is infinite. He existed before time, space, and processed meals from a can.
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Old 10-02-2007, 11:08 PM   #76
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But you said, quite definitively, that it was jesus' love. Surely you have good cause to speak so definitively. Or perhaps you could simply rephrase your statement.

But you posted your definitive statement about christianity here *confused*.
I said this:
Quote:
Of all the atheists/agnostics I've talked to about their conversion to faith (in this case Christianity), their reasons generally fell into 2 camps....
(emphasis mine). Where did I speak definitively where it was not specified as their reasons?

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The Flying Spaghetti Monster is infinite. He existed before time, space, and processed meals from a can.
Any god who can be squashed into a can and processed at high heat for consumption by 8 year olds doesn't qualify as existing before time and space.


From MST3K's spoof of "Hercules Unchained"--heard as Roman medic soldiers carry off an unconscious Greek Hercules on a 1950's Army green canvas stretcher: "Hi, we're IX-I-I. Did somebody dial IX-I-I?"

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Old 10-02-2007, 11:21 PM   #77
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I said this: (emphasis mine). Where did I speak definitively where it was not specified as their reasons?
Fair enough. Next time you see "them", please let them know I have questions.

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Any god who can be squashed into a can and processed at high heat for consumption by 8 year olds doesn't qualify as existing before time and space.
He is divine pasta. He doesn't go into cans like mortal pasta. Apparently, you aren't familiar with The Gospel. Besides, you can't prove that he didn't exist before time and space.
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Old 10-02-2007, 11:22 PM   #78
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I agree, but shouldn't this go in the Atheism/ Theism thread?

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Old 10-03-2007, 05:03 AM   #79
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Another way of looking at it is to see the way theists are and the way atheists are and choose one side or the other because of the way their stance is portrayed.
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Old 10-03-2007, 09:26 AM   #80
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Another way of looking at it is to see the way theists are and the way atheists are and choose one side or the other because of the way their stance is portrayed.
Faith, or lack thereof, is an extremely personal decision--I don't think people should be making a decision of that importance based on how a few individuals behave. There are good theists and atheists everywhere, and there are bad theists and atheists everywhere. If we expect perfect behavior out of either group, we are going to be sorely disappointed. Humans cannot be perfect, and if you base your decision for atheism/theism on how the worst people in that group behave, no group will ever meet your standards.


From MST3K's spoof of "Hercules Unchained"--heard as Roman medic soldiers carry off an unconscious Greek Hercules on a 1950's Army green canvas stretcher: "Hi, we're IX-I-I. Did somebody dial IX-I-I?"

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