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Old 10-17-2007, 01:43 AM   #81
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You are right, but I don't think that Luke actually killed them...

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Old 10-17-2007, 05:15 AM   #82
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So? Again, why does it matter HOW you kill someone? Imagine a lightsaber can be as painful as any DS power...
And Luke afterwards kills a lot of people. They might not have been evil, suppose they were somehow pressured into Jabba's service!
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Old 10-17-2007, 12:58 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect

Evil = morally bad.
Frankly speaking isnt "good" just merely a point of view?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Deralia
then luke skywalker is evil when hes forcechoking two gamorreans?!
very interesting point of view
Aren't telekenetical attacks core force powers? Because luke himself has his own variant of sith lightning, rather its called "emerald lightning or electric judgment" Does that make him evil?

Mace windu exhibits a force crush on grievious, does that make him evil? No


Does the sith potray themselves as evil? No, but do the people potray the sith as evil? Yes
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Old 10-17-2007, 01:36 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephira
Frankly speaking isnt "good" just merely a point of view?
If the "good" is Bacon yes...
If the "good" is murder, Betrayal, creating mistrust then no..
Unless your a Sith of course, then it is your point of view..... (Walks away scratching head)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephira
Because luke himself has his own variant of sith lightning, rather its called "emerald lightning or electric judgment" Does that make him evil?
Although it looks like force lightning, it has the effects of force shock, and Jacen explicitly says it doesn't cause death, but as you imply, the emotions involved in using this power are anger and aggression.


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Old 10-19-2007, 06:14 PM   #85
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I find the Sith Great but at one point no Both Jedi and Sith are good and bad....


Sith---they care for eachother(meaning to stay alive in a way)but they kill whoever is not strong.


Jedi---care for all things, but innocent people die while they wait and meditate!


The Way Of The Sith Is Not One Who Is Strong But One Who Is Correct, Darth Revan, Lord Of War!!!
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Old 10-20-2007, 02:46 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by adamqd
If the "good" is Bacon yes...
If the "good" is murder, Betrayal, creating mistrust then no..
Unless your a Sith of course, then it is your point of view..... (Walks away scratching head)
I think you fail miserably at what im trying to get at.

Good IS a point of view in reality, i can say "this guys rhis this guys that" and then kill him, i can take that as a good deed why? Simply because it is merely a point of view. Some people view smoking as good, some view murder as good.

Why? Point of view

Next time try to be more open minded if not then shut up.

Edit: Sephira, please refrain from telling people to "shut up" that is flame-baiting and is as much a no-no as flaming around here. Best to deal with the subject at hand and not the other poster. -RH

Quote:
Originally Posted by adamqd
Although it looks like force lightning, it has the effects of force shock, and Jacen explicitly says it doesn't cause death, but as you imply, the emotions involved in using this power are anger and aggression.
Jacens a fallible character, his knowledge of the force is less than lukes and sidious. Just because he says it is doesnt mean it is. If it doesnt cause death then why was luke killing vongs with emerald lightning despite the fact he isnt using emotions?

Last edited by RedHawke; 10-20-2007 at 12:28 PM.
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Old 10-20-2007, 12:03 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephira
I think you fail miserably at what im trying to get at.

Good IS a point of view in reality, i can say "this guys rhis this guys that" and then kill him, i can take that as a good deed why? Simply because it is merely a point of view. Some people view smoking as good, some view murder as good.

Why? Point of view

Next time try to be more open minded if not then shut up.
{Snip} I was having a laugh, what did you think I meant by it?!
Lighten up a bit!

Edit: Removed flaming part of post, please use the report a post feature next time instead of taking the flame bait from another poster. You can report a post by clicking the little yellow dot () below the persons Avatar section. Thanks. -RH



Last edited by RedHawke; 10-20-2007 at 12:27 PM.
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Old 10-20-2007, 12:21 PM   #88
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He's got a point. Jacen isn't exactly a paragon of the Light Side. *Cough*LegacyoftheForce*cough*

{Snip} Removing this part as the issue is being dealt with. -RH

Killing doesn't necessarily lead to the Dark Side. Is it any better to kill someone with the Force directly rather than using the Force to augment your physical abilities so you can slice them in half with a lightsaber? I would say not.
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Old 10-20-2007, 02:12 PM   #89
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Killing is the Jedi and the sith's business, whether they protect something or seek to oppress it, the process is the same... kill the opposition, to a degree its how the user manipulates the force that has further repercussions, abuse of one's power.


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Old 10-20-2007, 02:21 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adamqd
Killing is the Jedi and the sith's business, whether they protect something or seek to oppress it, the process is the same... kill the opposition, to a degree its how the user manipulates the force that has further repercussions, abuse of one's power.

I agree 100% with you!!!!


The Way Of The Sith Is Not One Who Is Strong But One Who Is Correct, Darth Revan, Lord Of War!!!
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Old 10-21-2007, 11:28 AM   #91
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Deleted off-topic posts. The issue has been handled. Sephira and adamqd, please take any other issues to PMs or contact one of us moderators. Back on topic please, everyone. Thanks.


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Old 10-21-2007, 03:33 PM   #92
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This discussion seems moot, since it's basically a very ancient discussion of whether "good" is a universal "truth" or relative to each case...

If you're interested in that, please refer to the following terms:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_absolutism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_relativism
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/absolutism (2.)
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/relativism


A person who belives that "good" as well as "evil" and what is an example of either is relative is a person who belives in moral relativism, or just plain relativism.

If a person holds, however, that that there are ANY (as in any at all) moral principles that apply regardless social structure, traditions, or taboo, then the person believes in absolutism (moral absolutism).

Considering these terms can be enlightening, and I certainly would not attempt to dissuade anyone from continuing the discussion, but I would still advice people that they should not expect anyone to change their opinions as a result of the discussion, since I doubt a resolution will be reached... After all, philosophers and theologians have struggled with this discussion for a long time, so to me it looks like an undead thread. YMMV.


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Old 11-06-2007, 06:23 PM   #93
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You kidding right? Of course the Sith are evil. Murder, torture, on innocents, that's evil in my book.
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Old 11-06-2007, 10:13 PM   #94
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Murder/torture of innoscents: Then Christians are evil for the crusades/inquisitions/Salem witch trials.

Jedi are also guilty of such things. In fact perhaps the Jedi are more responsible for it than they will admit. Their strict code and inaction led to murders. "Evil prevails when good men do nothing"
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Old 11-06-2007, 10:27 PM   #95
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*snip* But you're right, the Jedi should act, such as the Mandalorian Wars. But Sith, they take gratification from the acts they do, unlike say a soldier, Jedi, nay even a religious terrorist or some such who do what they do as a matter of course.

Last edited by Rogue Nine; 11-06-2007 at 11:47 PM. Reason: snip
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Old 11-06-2007, 11:32 PM   #96
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*snipped 9/11 prattle*

Last edited by Rogue Nine; 11-06-2007 at 11:48 PM. Reason: snippity snip
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Old 11-06-2007, 11:45 PM   #97
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This is not the place for that sort of discussion, so please, take it elsewhere.




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Old 11-06-2007, 11:57 PM   #98
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Sorry, I thought it was relevent. In a discussion of evil and evil deeds, is it not important to include an example that can be related to? I suppose I could have used the tactics used by the Colonials during the American Revolution being considered "evil" by the british empire. Only problem with that is unless people study history, it's easy to forget that one man's terrorist is another man's revolutionary.
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Old 11-07-2007, 12:15 AM   #99
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Use whatever example you want, just keep it relevant to the topic at hand. Not once in your post did you mention Star Wars.

Anyway, back on topic, end of discussion, thanks.




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Old 11-07-2007, 12:38 AM   #100
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(OT: Sorry Rogue Nine, I'll be more careful to explain HOW it relates in the future)

At any rate There are countless examples from the SW Universe. Heck even in TSL the examples are everywhere. The Jedi hiding on Katarr. Which led to the destruction of that planet. As it was stated that Darth Nihilus was mere hunger, he was more like a beast. Which is the more evil, the rancor, or the one who leads the rancor to a bunch of children.
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Old 11-07-2007, 07:44 AM   #101
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I would say the latter, depending on the intent. Animals like Rancors are not really capeable of good or evil, it takes a human touch. Anyway, you are arguing that the Jedi's inaction is evil? Revan and Malek are very much what the Jedi feared by acting. It's an age old arguement, be slaughtered by the Mandalorians or risk falling to the dark side to prevent it from happening.
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Old 11-07-2007, 10:44 AM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommycat
At any rate There are countless examples from the SW Universe. Heck even in TSL the examples are everywhere. The Jedi hiding on Katarr. Which led to the destruction of that planet. As it was stated that Darth Nihilus was mere hunger, he was more like a beast. Which is the more evil, the rancor, or the one who leads the rancor to a bunch of children.
That's like saying it is a religious group's fault that they congregated and were attacked by terrorists.

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Old 11-08-2007, 05:29 AM   #103
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That's like saying it is a religious group's fault that they congregated and were attacked by terrorists.
actually probably closer to people hiding in a crowd of civilians who end up causing civilians to get hurt in the crossfire. If that religious group had as its goal the extermination of all who follow another religious code, then hides in a crowd of people, see how the comparison works. IF however the Jedi were to make an attempt at a completely peaceful resolution that didn't equate to "convert or die" then I could see how they were better than the Sith, BUT they don't. They hunt down Sith and kill them. It would be akin to if the Christians were to go out and hunt down every muslim out there and tell them they had to throw off their "evil" religion and embrace the peaceful Christian religion or be forced to die. Jedi are intolerant, judgemental, arrogant, and violent.

No, I'm not attacking Christian, or Muslim beliefs in this. Nor am I trying to say Christianity is good and muslims are evil.
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Old 11-08-2007, 07:10 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Tommycat
Jedi are intolerant, judgemental, arrogant, and violent.
That's very much a description of the Sith as well. What's worse they seek to cause harm to the galaxy rather than at least look like they defend it from evil.
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Old 11-08-2007, 07:47 AM   #105
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That's very much a description of the Sith as well. What's worse they seek to cause harm to the galaxy rather than at least look like they defend it from evil.
Point being that labeling Sith evil is simply a matter of perspective. And the sith don't want to destroy the galaxy. They don't want to harm the galaxy. They seek to be the strongest. As do the Jedi.

"From my point of view the Jedi are evil"

Now, as for my own views, I see the jedi as being evil through apathy AND through action. I see the Sith being evil only through action. Neither is truly free of evil, but neither are they truly evil. They are both good to an extent. And they are both evil to an extent. Denying true love is the greatest of evils in my eyes. If you have ever met your true love, you would know this. Denying emotion from someone. Telling them that they should not feel passion. Passion and love have inspired some of the greatest stories of all time. Again, try to see from the opposite side. It is infinately easier to argue that the jedi, whom Lucas has made to be heroes, are good, but step out and see how the the Sith are good. It may even help you in your own life to keep from being too judgemental.

Think of it this way. Robin hood. A common thief who badgers the helpless only because they have earned themselves some money. A gang leader. A violent criminal. He would be evil in some people's view. A bank robber does the same thing.

Last edited by Tommycat; 11-08-2007 at 08:00 AM.
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Old 11-08-2007, 08:19 AM   #106
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Sure, I would never be a Jedi myself and much of that has to do with their code. But tell me something, what good have the Sith as a whole done? What acts that follow the Sith way has not been evil or committed with the intent to cause harm?
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Old 11-08-2007, 12:19 PM   #107
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Old 11-09-2007, 01:20 PM   #108
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^ That's actually an easy answer...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommycat
Point being that labeling Sith evil is simply a matter of perspective. And the sith don't want to destroy the galaxy. They don't want to harm the galaxy. They seek to be the strongest. As do the Jedi.

"From my point of view the Jedi are evil"

Now, as for my own views, I see the jedi as being evil through apathy AND through action. I see the Sith being evil only through action. Neither is truly free of evil, but neither are they truly evil. They are both good to an extent. And they are both evil to an extent. Denying true love is the greatest of evils in my eyes. If you have ever met your true love, you would know this. Denying emotion from someone. Telling them that they should not feel passion. Passion and love have inspired some of the greatest stories of all time. Again, try to see from the opposite side. It is infinately easier to argue that the jedi, whom Lucas has made to be heroes, are good, but step out and see how the the Sith are good. It may even help you in your own life to keep from being too judgemental.

Think of it this way. Robin hood. A common thief who badgers the helpless only because they have earned themselves some money. A gang leader. A violent criminal. He would be evil in some people's view. A bank robber does the same thing.
I agree with what is said. Take Revan for instance... a Sith Lord, while he did try to take over the Galaxy, it was because the Republic had become corrupt, the only true difference in their views is that the Sith slaughter countless innocents in order to be the strongest... and the Jedi kill only when neccessary... even their greatest enemies they will not kill, they would rather make them see the error of their ways and try to help them.
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Old 11-10-2007, 11:59 AM   #109
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Sure, I would never be a Jedi myself and much of that has to do with their code. But tell me something, what good have the Sith as a whole done? What acts that follow the Sith way has not been evil or committed with the intent to cause harm?
Kreia's training of the Jedi Exile to confront her on Malachor was either to free the people of the SWU from the force, or to stop the echo, depending on which parts of what she says you take literal. If you really accept her proposition that the force is a tyrant, or that the echoes could make any victory over the Jedi Pyrrhic, then what she did was to the good, and for good motives.

I'd argue that this makes her unique in having both good intentions and a good effect on the whole. Exile does draw out and kill all the Sith Lords, no matter whether you play LS or DS. Also, the Jedi order is reformed to get rid of a lot of their over - regulation and micro - managing for a time.
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Old 11-10-2007, 04:08 PM   #110
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Yes, Kreia is very much an exception to the rule of Sith deriving pleasure from committing acts we would deem as evil. Doing what might be seen as the wrong thing for alturistic reasons. By the same token some of the acts you commit that gain influence with her are very much considered evil. Killing that guy in the Enclave for example, or letting him be killed. Telling the Exchange to kill a sick man rather than heal him. Convincing someone his wife's dead. I'm quite sure that no regid moral code is needed to judge such acts.
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Old 11-10-2007, 06:29 PM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jvstice
Kreia's training of the Jedi Exile to confront her on Malachor was either to free the people of the SWU from the force, or to stop the echo, depending on which parts of what she says you take literal.
If you free the people of the force, everyone would die. That to me, would be mass genocide.

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Old 11-11-2007, 11:03 PM   #112
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Not necessarily true Rev7. If you free the galaxy of the Force, you are left with people who like the Vong are free of the entrapments of the will of the Force. The force could no longer be used to throw people around. Nobody could use the Force to crush people, choke people, electrocute people, give people an unfair advantage in gambling.
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Old 11-12-2007, 12:46 AM   #113
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Didn't Kreia said that the Force binded everything (kinda like fate?) and people's lives revolved around it? Then destroying the Force will destabilize the balance the Force created IMO.


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Old 11-12-2007, 01:35 AM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeDoe 2.0
Didn't Kreia said that the Force binded everything (kinda like fate?) and people's lives revolved around it? Then destroying the Force will destabilize the balance the Force created IMO.
OR correct the imbalance created by it....
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Old 11-12-2007, 01:38 AM   #115
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That is exactly true JoeDoe! IF Kreia destroyed the force then all of the galaxies inhabitants would be like the Jedi on the Star Forge that Malak captured and didn't "let them become one with the force". "For all purposes and intentions they are dead".

About the Vong part, we don't exactly know if they even existed in the Old Republic era. They were located in an entirely different galaxy, and might not even know what the force is. So if they came into, what we call known space, there would be nothing if the force was destroyed.

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Old 11-12-2007, 01:57 AM   #116
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My point would be that it is possible to exist without the Force. Those that live without the Force would feel nothing. Those that feel the Force may feel an emptiness. Those strong with the Force would die. But in the end the Force would cease to be, and those that survived would soon forget the existence of the Force.
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Old 11-12-2007, 04:11 AM   #117
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Surely without the force everything would cease to be... Didn't Qui-gon state that the force surrounds and binds the universe together, and that it was in every living thing regardless of force sensitivity?

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Force


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Old 11-12-2007, 04:23 AM   #118
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More Jedi Lies!!!

Just kidding. Well seeing as how one was able to turn away from the Force and survive, It is feasable that those who have the ability to turn away from it or do not feel it strongly would not be harmed.
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