lfnetwork.com mark read register faq members calendar

Thread: Court rejects alleged CIA kidnap victim
Thread Tools Display Modes
Post a new thread. Add a reply to this thread. Indicate all threads in this forum as read. Subscribe to this forum. RSS feed: this forum RSS feed: all forums
Old 10-09-2007, 01:04 PM   #1
Achilles
Dapper Chimp
 
Achilles's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 8,204
Helpful! Veteran Modder Forum Veteran 
Court rejects alleged CIA kidnap victim

Link
Quote:
WASHINGTON - The Supreme Court on Tuesday terminated a lawsuit from a man who claims he was abducted and tortured by the CIA, effectively endorsing Bush administration arguments that state secrets would be revealed if the case were allowed to proceed.

Khaled el-Masri, 44, alleged that he was kidnapped by CIA agents in Europe and held in an Afghan prison for four months in a case of mistaken identity.
Hmmm, I thought he was held for 5 months. Also, I recall that he was forced to sign a waiver stating that he would not sue the U.S. government before he was released.
Achilles is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-09-2007, 01:41 PM   #2
Web Rider
Senior Member
 
Web Rider's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: here
Posts: 1,768
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Link
Hmmm, I thought he was held for 5 months. Also, I recall that he was forced to sign a waiver stating that he would not sue the U.S. government before he was released.
but legal documents signed under coercion don't count anyway, US law says so.

I vaguely remember this case when news first got word of it. It's not a surprising verdict though.


"So if you go to Washington, it's buildings clean and nice. Bring a pack of matches...and we'll burn the White House twice!"

"Nobody's talking about extermination. No one ever does. They just do it." - Magneto

"Don't solicit for your sister, that's not nice, unless you get a good percentage of her price."
Web Rider is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-09-2007, 02:17 PM   #3
Achilles
Dapper Chimp
 
Achilles's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 8,204
Helpful! Veteran Modder Forum Veteran 
Anyone else concerned that the CIA is abducting German citizens and holding them in secret prisons in the middle east?
Achilles is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-09-2007, 02:25 PM   #4
SilentScope001
May The Force Serve You.
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,236
Anyone concerned that El-Masri may be a liar?

Unlikely, but hey, it's possible in this day and age. Governments aren't all that saintly, but then again, they aren't all devils either.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Onion
"The Cambodian government has established many exciting-sounding 're-education camps' where both intellectuals and everyday citizens can be sent at any time," Day said. Well, we at Barnes & Noble have always supported re-education in America, and we intend to extend this policy to our new customers." For every hardcover book sold, Barnes & Noble will donate a dollar to the Cambodian government to help re-educate local children.
Full Article Here
SilentScope001 is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-09-2007, 02:31 PM   #5
mimartin
TOR ate my KotOR
 
mimartin's Avatar
 
Status: Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 6,052
Current Game: TOR/FO:NV
Imperialist Meatbags Guild Officer The Walking Carpets Guild Officer Alderaan News Holopics contributor 
I found this interesting
Quote:
Originally Posted by MARK SHERMAN
The administration has not publicly acknowledged that el-Masri was detained
So we are not saying we ever had him, but
Quote:
and lower courts dismissed his suit after the administration asserted that state secrets would be revealed if the lawsuit was not blocked
we are admitting that state secrets will be revealed if this is allowed to continue.

I understand the need for state secrets, I also demand my government have checks and balances. I could not agree more with Manfred Gnijdic the attorney for Khaled el-Masri when he was quoted as saying “It will shatter all trust in the American justice system.”

We take a German a citizen (correct me if I’m wrong, but Germany is one of the US allies) from a foreign land and hold him without any due process. Then we release him and tell him he is not due any compensation for our mistakenly imprisoning him (notice I didn’t complicate the issue by saying anything about torture). We could have also settled the suit by just paying him the $75,000 and issuing a public apology for our mistake. An avoidable mistake that may not have ever happened if we allowed these people any type of due process in the first place (how would we have reacted if Germany had done this to one of our citizen?)

I thought we were supposed to be the good guy in the white hats.

One of George Lucas cheesy lines keeps going through my head.
Quote:
Padmé - What if the democracy we thought we were serving no longer exists, and the Republic has become the very evil we have been fighting to destroy?
mimartin is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-09-2007, 03:12 PM   #6
Web Rider
Senior Member
 
Web Rider's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: here
Posts: 1,768
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Anyone else concerned that the CIA is abducting German citizens and holding them in secret prisons in the middle east?
I am concerned with ANY government doing this to ANY citizen, be them from that government's nation or another.

However, there is a point at which you gotta cut your losses, unless there is some smoking gun to support that this is no more than a one out a million accident....

Also, we're quite aware most CIA type organizations do this, the US CIA is simply more under the microscope. We're quite unsure how to best deal with it.


"So if you go to Washington, it's buildings clean and nice. Bring a pack of matches...and we'll burn the White House twice!"

"Nobody's talking about extermination. No one ever does. They just do it." - Magneto

"Don't solicit for your sister, that's not nice, unless you get a good percentage of her price."
Web Rider is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-09-2007, 03:29 PM   #7
mimartin
TOR ate my KotOR
 
mimartin's Avatar
 
Status: Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 6,052
Current Game: TOR/FO:NV
Imperialist Meatbags Guild Officer The Walking Carpets Guild Officer Alderaan News Holopics contributor 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Web Rider
However, there is a point at which you gotta cut your losses, unless there is some smoking gun to support that this is no more than a one out a million accident....
But isn’t one out of million too many if you are that one?
mimartin is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-09-2007, 03:44 PM   #8
Achilles
Dapper Chimp
 
Achilles's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 8,204
Helpful! Veteran Modder Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mimartin
We take a German a citizen (correct me if I’m wrong, but Germany is one of the US allies) from a foreign land and hold him without any due process. Then we release him and tell him he is not due any compensation for our mistakenly imprisoning him (notice I didn’t complicate the issue by saying anything about torture). We could have also settled the suit by just paying him the $75,000 and issuing a public apology for our mistake. An avoidable mistake that may not have ever happened if we allowed these people any type of due process in the first place (how would we have reacted if Germany had done this to one of our citizen?)
FWIW, the name of the guy on their list was Khaled al-Masri. What a difference a vowel makes. Also FWIW, his contention was that if it had been a simple matter of mistaken identity (al vs el), then that could have been cleared up in a few minutes. The fact that his mosque had been under investigation leads him to believe that the CIA didn't care that they had the wrong guy because he still might have been useful to them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Web Rider
However, there is a point at which you gotta cut your losses, unless there is some smoking gun to support that this is no more than a one out a million accident....
"One in a million" as far as abducting the wrong guy or "one in a million" as far as abducting someone that was later found to be innocent and released? As far as the former, I can't say. As far as the latter, I think the current renditions count is only in the thousands (maybe. Trying to give you the benefit of the doubt), but it has happened at least half a dozen times (so far as the documented cases are concerned).
Achilles is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-09-2007, 03:45 PM   #9
Web Rider
Senior Member
 
Web Rider's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: here
Posts: 1,768
Quote:
Originally Posted by mimartin
But isn’t one out of million too many if you are that one?
context is everything. If say, we're fighting this War, and the worst thing I did was say Bush was dumb, well, yes. But say we're fighting this war and theres a general description of guy, who looks similar to me, and I get picked up isntead of him, well, then not really.

yeah, i'd be upset, but less so than if I was mistaken for arabic.

Quote:
"One in a million" as far as abducting the wrong guy or "one in a million" as far as abducting someone that was later found to be innocent and released?
both. But them getting released is the ideal end to it all.


"So if you go to Washington, it's buildings clean and nice. Bring a pack of matches...and we'll burn the White House twice!"

"Nobody's talking about extermination. No one ever does. They just do it." - Magneto

"Don't solicit for your sister, that's not nice, unless you get a good percentage of her price."
Web Rider is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-09-2007, 04:06 PM   #10
Corinthian
Banned
 
Corinthian's Avatar
 
Status: Banned
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,165
Silentscope has a point. He may be lying. It does happen, you know.
Corinthian is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-09-2007, 04:15 PM   #11
mimartin
TOR ate my KotOR
 
mimartin's Avatar
 
Status: Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 6,052
Current Game: TOR/FO:NV
Imperialist Meatbags Guild Officer The Walking Carpets Guild Officer Alderaan News Holopics contributor 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinthian
Silentscope has a point. He may be lying. It does happen, you know.
Sure he could be lying, but that does not explain this statement from the article.
Quote:
German Chancellor Angela Merkel has said that U.S. officials acknowledged that el-Masri's detention was a mistake.
The article also gives an example where the U.S. government has used this privilege before, but was lying about the need for its use.

If you see smoke there usually is a fire, even if you don’t see the flames.
mimartin is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-09-2007, 04:43 PM   #12
Achilles
Dapper Chimp
 
Achilles's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 8,204
Helpful! Veteran Modder Forum Veteran 
I guess I'm a little confused. Is there some question as to whether or not renditions take place?

http://www.aclu.org/safefree/extraor...s20051206.html
http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/torture/renditions.htm
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...-2005Mar8.html
and of course, everyone's favorite: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition

Here's a YouTube clip for anyone that is interested in watching.
Achilles is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-09-2007, 11:17 PM   #13
RobQel-Droma
Blah
 
RobQel-Droma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Up yours. X0
Posts: 2,216
Contest winner - Fan Fiction 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Anyone else concerned that the CIA is abducting German citizens and holding them in secret prisons in the middle east?
Suddenly, we go from one case put forth here, to we're doing this all over the place to innocent people?

Not really, to answer your question. I feel sorry for the guy, and I do wonder why he was necessary to hold him for so long and not compensate him - I know I'd be pissed. I'm not sure what was going on there. Maybe that frustration is where all his claims are coming from....

But you make it sound like this is our usual policy....
RobQel-Droma is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-09-2007, 11:23 PM   #14
Achilles
Dapper Chimp
 
Achilles's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 8,204
Helpful! Veteran Modder Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
But you make it sound like this is our usual policy....
Could you expand on what you mean by "this"? I have several posts in this thread that may or may not address what you are bringing up, so "this" is a little too vague for me to determine context. Thanks in advance.
Achilles is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-10-2007, 12:02 AM   #15
mimartin
TOR ate my KotOR
 
mimartin's Avatar
 
Status: Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 6,052
Current Game: TOR/FO:NV
Imperialist Meatbags Guild Officer The Walking Carpets Guild Officer Alderaan News Holopics contributor 
It seems this isn’t an isolated incident and it is not just happening to people of Arabic decent. We are equal opportunity at detaining the innocent.
Christian Science Monitor
Murat Kurnaz
Being released in a timely matter is the ideal end to this all. Having months or even years of your life taken away is not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Here's a YouTube clip for anyone that is interested in watching.
Thanks for the link. That was truly disturbing, but something everyone needs to see and hear.
mimartin is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-10-2007, 12:07 AM   #16
John Galt
Junior Member
 
John Galt's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Galt's Gulch
Posts: 474
this. disgusts. me.





Wer mit Ungeheuern kämpft, mag zusehn, dass er nicht dabei zum Ungeheuer wird. Und wenn du lange in einen Abgrund blickst, blickt der Abgrund auch in dich hinein. -Friedrich Nietzsche, Jenseits von Gut und Böse
John Galt is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-10-2007, 12:23 AM   #17
Totenkopf
English spoken in What
 
Totenkopf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: What?
Posts: 4,787
Imperialist Meatbags Guild Member The Walking Carpets Guild Member Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Could you expand on what you mean by "this"? I have several posts in this thread that may or may not address what you are bringing up, so "this" is a little too vague for me to determine context. Thanks in advance.
I'd say the context is staggeringly self evident. Rob's basically asking if you're contending that it's US policy to scoop people up somewhat indiscriminately, "torture" them, dicscover they're seemingly/actually innocent and then pressuring them to keep quiet after releasing them. Or....was this more the exception than the rule? Afterall, we all know how governments are LOATHE to admit to any wrong doing...accidental or otherwise.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
Totenkopf is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-10-2007, 01:10 AM   #18
RobQel-Droma
Blah
 
RobQel-Droma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Up yours. X0
Posts: 2,216
Contest winner - Fan Fiction 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Could you expand on what you mean by "this"? I have several posts in this thread that may or may not address what you are bringing up, so "this" is a little too vague for me to determine context. Thanks in advance.
Well, not to be rude, but I did only quote one certain part of your post, so I would think it would be rather clear....

Quote:
Originally Posted by mimartin
It seems this isn’t an isolated incident and it is not just happening to people of Arabic decent. We are equal opportunity at detaining the innocent.
Christian Science Monitor
Yes, that is one other incident. Probably shouldn't have happened, or should have ended soon too. But the US seems to be in kind of a tight spot, since apparently there could be some problems sending them back to China.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mimartin
Murat Kurnaz
Being released in a timely matter is the ideal end to this all. Having months or even years of your life taken away is not.
Dude, that happened in 1982...

....not to mention that the guy seemed to have also spouted torture stories too....

But I agree with the last part.
RobQel-Droma is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-10-2007, 01:18 AM   #19
Jae Onasi
Antiquis temporibus, nati tibi similes in rupibus ventosissimis exponebantur ad necem
 
Jae Onasi's Avatar
 
Status: Super Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 10,916
Current Game: Guild Wars 2, VtMB, TOR
Alderaan News Holopics contributor Helpful! LucasCast staff Veteran Fan Fic Author 
Don't make me come in here with my mod tools.....


From MST3K's spoof of "Hercules Unchained"--heard as Roman medic soldiers carry off an unconscious Greek Hercules on a 1950's Army green canvas stretcher: "Hi, we're IX-I-I. Did somebody dial IX-I-I?"

Read The Adventures of Jolee Bindo and see the amazing Peep Surgery
Story WIP: The Dragonfighters
My blog: Confessions of a Geeky Mom--Latest post: Security Alerts!
Love Star Trek AND gaming? Check out Lotus Fleet.

Jae Onasi is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-10-2007, 01:18 AM   #20
Achilles
Dapper Chimp
 
Achilles's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 8,204
Helpful! Veteran Modder Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Galt
this. disgusts. me.
But wait, there's more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Military Commissions Act of 2006
“(5) LAWFUL ENEMY COMBATANT.—The term ‘lawful enemy combatant’ means an individual determined by or under the authority of the President or Secretary of Defense (whether on individualized or collective basis) to be:
(i) a member of the regular forces of a State party engaged in hostilities against the United States or its co-belligerents;
(ii) a member of a militia, volunteer corps, or organized resistance movement belonging to a State party engaged in such hostilities, which are under responsible command, wear a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance, carry their arms openly, and abide by the law of war; or
(iii) a member of a regular armed forces who professes allegiance to a government engaged in such hostilities, but not recognized by the United States.
So the President and the Secretary of Defense have the authority to arbitrarily deem someone a "lawful enemy combatant"? I don't see anything here that specifies that this is only applicable to non-citizens (*cough*JosePadilla*cough*).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Military Commissions Act of 2006
“(7) UNLAWFUL ENEMY COMBATANT.—The term ‘unlawful enemy combatant’ means an individual determined by or under the authority of the President or the Secretary of Defense—

“(A) to be part of or affiliated with a force or organization—including but not limited to al Qaeda, the Taliban, any international terrorist organization, or associated forces—engaged in hostilities against the United States or its co-belligerents in violation of the law of war;
“(B) to have committed a hostile act in aid of such a force or organization so engaged; or
“(C) to have supported hostilities in aid of such a force or organization so engaged.
So again, completely up to the President and the Secretary of Defense.

Criteria seem a little vague. Without due process, how would one contest their being "part of or affiliated with" one of these groups? Seems that either the President or the Secretary of State could simply decide that they are and that would be the end of the matter.

That last one is a little tricky too; "too have supported hostilities in the aid of such a force or organization so engaged"? Support how? If an Army medic provides medical care to a captured al Qaeda bad guy in accordance with the Geneva conventions, could either the President or the Secretary of State deem him an unlawful enemy combatant? Remember, nothing here stating this doesn't apply to U.S. citizens.

So basically, the President or the Secretary of State may decide that you are an unlawful enemy combatant (thereby suspending your habeas corpus rights), have you renditioned to Guantanamo Bay where your only recourse is to wait for a military commission to review your case (where you are not afforded the right to face your accusers, see evidence presented against you, furnish witnesses to establish your innocence, etc).

Yay for us.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
Well, not to be rude, but I did only quote one certain part of your post, so I would think it would be rather clear....
I'm afraid that doesn't answer my question. I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt before directing you to post #12 and asking which part of it you wish to contest.
Achilles is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-10-2007, 04:26 AM   #21
Rogue Warrior
Banned
 
Status: Banned
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Geelong Australia
Posts: 207
Guantanamo detainee David Hicks is still awaiting trial for training with Al Qaeda after he was snapped up in 2001. Similar case. My question is how long would the sentence be if the people that are being arrested and imprisoned are guilty? What happened to measures being in place to ensure law enforcement agencies do not get it wrong?
Rogue Warrior is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-10-2007, 05:03 AM   #22
Achilles
Dapper Chimp
 
Achilles's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 8,204
Helpful! Veteran Modder Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogue Warrior
My question is how long would the sentence be if the people that are being arrested and imprisoned are guilty?
Great question which raises others. I suspect that since we're speaking about prisoners of war and military crimes, we'd be dealing with the UCMJ (which I am not terribly familiar with).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogue Warrior
What happened to measures being in place to ensure law enforcement agencies do not get it wrong?
As in "where did they go"? Never existed. Habeas corpus does not extend to foreigners. No due process. No bill of rights guaranteeing a speedy trial, jury of peers, etc, etc. Allegedly the third Geneva Convention extends them some basic rights to trial, which it seems the Military Commissions Act was designed to help facilitate. However there are some flaws with that portion of the MCA as well.
Achilles is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-10-2007, 06:31 AM   #23
Rogue Warrior
Banned
 
Status: Banned
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Geelong Australia
Posts: 207
I might be thinking civilian law as opposed to military. Even so if it is the CIA what would it fall under? Some spooky netherworld straight out of Splinter Cell perhaps?

Universal code of military justice.
Rogue Warrior is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-10-2007, 08:43 AM   #24
mimartin
TOR ate my KotOR
 
mimartin's Avatar
 
Status: Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 6,052
Current Game: TOR/FO:NV
Imperialist Meatbags Guild Officer The Walking Carpets Guild Officer Alderaan News Holopics contributor 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
Dude, that happened in 1982.

....not to mention that the guy seemed to have also spouted torture stories too....

But I agree with the last part.
Dude, Murat Kurnaz was born in 1982.

Mr. Kurnaz was arrested in late 2001 and was not released until 2006.
mimartin is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Post a new thread. Add a reply to this thread. Indicate all threads in this forum as read. Subscribe to this forum. RSS feed: this forum RSS feed: all forums
Go Back   LucasForums > Network > Knights of the Old Republic > Community > Kavar's Corner > Court rejects alleged CIA kidnap victim

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:14 PM.

LFNetwork, LLC ©2002-2011 - All rights reserved.
Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.