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Old 10-19-2007, 07:38 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tk102
I think you missed my implication of "therefore not a sin" part.
Sorry tk, I did miss that.

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Old 10-19-2007, 07:43 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Rev7
BTW-- Neopolian- the famous french leader general/ leader/emperor/dictator figure.
I'll be polite, it's Napoleon.

Wouldn't even simulated murder have to be murder of people who exist? Like if I played a game where I went around killing people in the town of Wichita? ex: if I were killing people in The Sims, they're digital representations of real people.

Whereas the people in Kotor, or Oblivion are not representations of real beings. You can't murder something that never lived.


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Old 10-19-2007, 08:05 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Rev7
My question to all christians who view this thread, why do we play video games that are like that, if we know it to be sin?
What tk said...and even without that comparison, that is your interpretation of Christianity, not that of all Christians (certainly not mine!).

Those are just games. I don't consider myself a god in real life when I play a video game (...although when I think about it, I could save a lot of taxes lol ). As for me I don't think "God" would care about such petty things as video games (and Church attendance per example): what matters is what you do in real life to make life better and help each other IMHO.
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Old 10-19-2007, 08:43 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev7
My question to all christians who view this thread, why do we play video games that are like that, if we know it to be sin?
Whether I think murder in real life is a sin or not (which I do), I don't think it is in a video game. Why? Well, because it's a video game - it's not real. I highly doubt God really cares about how many aliens we slice or how many credits we steal when we're playing KotOR.


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Old 10-19-2007, 11:01 PM   #45
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I'll be polite, it's Napoleon.
Sorry, I mispelled his name.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Sparrow
Whether I think murder in real life is a sin or not (which I do), I don't think it is in a video game. Why? Well, because it's a video game - it's not real. I highly doubt God really cares about how many aliens we slice or how many credits we steal when we're playing KotOR.
Video games are considered virtual, yes, and I also wish what you said is 100% true, but we don't know for sure if it is or not. My hypothesis on this topic may be way off, or right on the target, but again, I don't know for sure. Me I personally I sure hope it is not, but as I said before, I don't know. I guess you could say I am somewhat taking precautions.

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Old 10-19-2007, 11:55 PM   #46
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Curious, but if playing a game is bad in your opinion, how do you feel about litereature? Do you enjoy reading stories where people are being killed? Do you refuse to buy a book where people are murdered (or subjected to other indignities) b/c you might be enabling someone else's "near occasion of sin/sinfullness" (by buying their books and essentially encouraging them to create more of same)?

I come down on the side of those that say it's no big deal. The only caveat would be people who have self destructive personality traits. If you have "issues" with self control and violent behavior, perhaps those kind of games are the thing you should avoid (much like an alcoholic shouldn't drink booze). Otherwise, don't see problems with playing games, etc..


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Old 10-20-2007, 12:35 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Totenkopf
Curious, but if playing a game is bad in your opinion, how do you feel about litereature? Do you enjoy reading stories where people are being killed? Do you refuse to buy a book where people are murdered (or subjected to other indignities) b/c you might be enabling someone else's "near occasion of sin/sinfullness" (by buying their books and essentially encouraging them to create more of same)?

I come down on the side of those that say it's no big deal. The only caveat would be people who have self destructive personality traits. If you have "issues" with self control and violent behavior, perhaps those kind of games are the thing you should avoid (much like an alcoholic shouldn't drink booze). Otherwise, don't see problems with playing games, etc..
Well I have read one of Tom Clancey's books, and it was pretty good; other than that i have read some of Frank Peretti's books (the Oath was great). Other, other than that I generally read a lot at school, and I am tired at the end of the day and don't read many books. I cannot stop someone from sinning Totenkopf, everybody sins, and we can only somewhat cut down on it.I, in most cases, only am able to counsel the person. What it all comes down to is the person making the choice. Also I don't read books chuck full of gore, violence, sex ; ect. BTW-- I am not quite sure what to think quite yet on the killing in video games. I only think that playing a video games when you play as a god is not right, and one reason that I think this because I don't play any sort of game along those lines. Secondly, I feel that it is not right to do so. By no means am I saying that you, or anybody else, should believe in what I believe.

The thing that I can't see is why am I being "targeted" for something I believe in. I cannot stress this enough, EVERYBODY HAS OPINIONS. Sometimes these opinions cannot be validated, it may be something that you have faith in, or something that is not explainable, and it would be nearly impossible to validate something like that. I just don't understand why I am being "targeted" (this is in most cases on this thread, not all) for where I put my faith. I know that I may not be the greatest at explaining my reasoning, but I still try to. I am new to this kind of thing. Please forgive me if you feel that I am being kinda short, but I am really curious why I seem to be getting this kind of negative response from those on this thread and several others.
I would love to get an answer to that question if at all possible. Thanks
( this was not directed at Totenkopf 's question.)

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Old 10-20-2007, 01:24 AM   #48
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I don't think anybody has "targeted" you, especially not me. I'm a Christian as well and have been for years, it's just that I don't think the kind of video games you play is going to have much of an influence in where you spend the afterlife.

Now like Totenkopf said, there are some games that certain people shouldn't play because of any mental/personality "disorders" that person may have. Sometimes, it just depends on the kind of personality someone has - people with an overly-violent nature shouldn't play really violent games, or people with "weak" stomachs shouldn't play really gory games. In and of themselves, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong in doing those things, though.


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Old 10-20-2007, 03:26 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev7
The thing that I can't see is why am I being "targeted" for something I believe in.
because you are the only one who has professed to believe that video-game killing is the same as real-life killing. We are all quite curious to know why you think this. yes, you are more than welcome to say: "it's my opinion and that's the end of it." But you seem interested in discussion so we're all curious.

Is it the fact that they're people? Does that make killing Kahjit in Oblivion OK because they're not human? Is it because they're imitations of sentient creatures? Does that then make it OK to kill all the monsters and stuff? Or is it a be-all end-all, all killing, real or digital, is bad. And if so, what is you're reasoning for believing this?


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Old 10-20-2007, 04:08 AM   #50
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I wonder where do you all know from what god likes and dislikes, and that he condemns killings in real life but does not care about killings or violence in a "real life simulation"?


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Old 10-20-2007, 04:50 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev7
Well I have read one of Tom Clancey's books, and it was pretty good; other than that i have read some of Frank Peretti's books (the Oath was great). Other, other than that I generally read a lot at school, and I am tired at the end of the day and don't read many books...

Also I don't read books chuck full of gore, violence, sex
If your views do extend to literature then you are severely limiting your education and development as a person. I hope that you don't refuse to read Hamlet on the grounds that it involves murder. You're missing out on what is arguably the greatest work in the English Language if you do.


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Old 10-20-2007, 05:18 AM   #52
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See, we're 'targeting' you, because your views make no sense. They're not supported in the Bible, you've made no real arguments in favor of them, instead essentially saying "This is how I feel." then declaring it a sin. People get irritated when you declare that things they enjoy doing are sins. Did you know that? I doubt it.
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Old 10-20-2007, 09:02 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev7
I don't read books chuck full of gore, violence, sex ; ect.
I suppose that scratches the bible off your list? Some pretty bloody/sexual scenes in there from the parts I've bothered to read.

Unless you'd like to stick to Winnie the Pooh-Bear for the rest of your life, that's going to severely limit the amount of reading you can do. All great literature involves violence to some extent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev7
BTW-- I am not quite sure what to think quite yet on the killing in video games.
There goes KotOR too? Your call, I hope you enjoy games made for <10-year old children.

I'm curious as to the extent of your abstinence from media violence... In addition to games do you want to stop watching movies/TV shows that involve killing people too?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev7
I only think that playing a video games when you play as a god is not right, and one reason that I think this because I don't play any sort of game along those lines. Secondly, I feel that it is not right to do so.
Oh dear. I'd been hoping you were making progress in avoiding 'it's right because it's right' arguments.

Really, all you've got to do is say why rather than restate your opinion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev7
By no means am I saying that you, or anybody else, should believe in what I believe.
You have informed us of that fact no less than three or more times. It's fairly irrelevant in any case. Just because someone doesn't force me to eat coconuts doesn't mean I can't dislike them. The same applies to opinions.

I personally do not see where you draw the line for what level of deification constitutes being sinful. D&D is a good example of this - would you draw the line for what's sinful to the gods of the gods/greater gods/minor gods, demi-gods/half-gods/very powerful immortals...? It's not as if there's a black and white line for "this is a totally supreme infinite being and this is not" in all fantasy genres.


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Old 10-20-2007, 09:09 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinthian
People get irritated when you declare that things they enjoy doing are sins.
To the opposite, people who declare things sins get irritated when those who "sin" say they don't.


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Old 10-20-2007, 09:27 AM   #55
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Everybody sins. But you're right there, too. It's one thing to declare stuff that is clearly a sin, either by your conscience or the Bible itself. I don't think anyone would say that murder is not sinful. This kind of thing, on the other hand, is basically this guy passing judgment on his own merit.
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Old 10-20-2007, 09:51 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Totenkopf
Curious, but if playing a game is bad in your opinion, how do you feel about litereature? Do you enjoy reading stories where people are being killed? Do you refuse to buy a book where people are murdered (or subjected to other indignities) b/c you might be enabling someone else's "near occasion of sin/sinfullness" (by buying their books and essentially encouraging them to create more of same)?

I come down on the side of those that say it's no big deal. The only caveat would be people who have self destructive personality traits. If you have "issues" with self control and violent behavior, perhaps those kind of games are the thing you should avoid (much like an alcoholic shouldn't drink booze). Otherwise, don't see problems with playing games, etc..
If reading books with murder was a sin...then reading the Bible is a sin, because there is murder in the Bible. Ex: Cain kills Abel=MURDER

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Old 10-20-2007, 02:43 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Pavlos
If your views do extend to literature then you are severely limiting your education and development as a person. I hope that you don't refuse to read Hamlet on the grounds that it involves murder. You're missing out on what is arguably the greatest work in the English Language if you do.
If you all must know, I am only in the eighth grade.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
I suppose that scratches the bible off your list? Some pretty bloody/sexual scenes in there from the parts I've bothered to read.

Unless you'd like to stick to Winnie the Pooh-Bear for the rest of your life, that's going to severely limit the amount of reading you can do. All great literature involves violence to some extent.
Key word in what I said, "chuck full of....", and the bible isn't like that. Yes there are SOME scenes like that, but the Bible GENERALLY tells you how to live your life, and the story of Jesus Christ.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinthian
See, we're 'targeting' you, because your views make no sense. They're not supported in the Bible, you've made no real arguments in favor of them, instead essentially saying "This is how I feel." then declaring it a sin. People get irritated when you declare that things they enjoy doing are sins. Did you know that? I doubt it.
I have know that, but being on the forums, I know that even better. I have NOT "declared" anything a sin. I have only stated a hypothesis. Hypothesis' can be right, hypothesis' can be wrong.
Look at this quote Corinthian...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Since your case about sinful deified video game characters appears to have been drawn entirely from the bible's word we can discount the latter.
I have stated some of the Bible's word Corinthian. This is also why I feel "targeted", whatever I say that has some sort of backing, is immediately tossed aside like it is garbage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev7
By no means am I saying that you, or anybody else, should believe in what I believe.
I only say this because everybody seems to think that I am "declaring" things sin; ect.

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Old 10-20-2007, 03:26 PM   #58
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Hey everyone let's try to keep our eyes on the prize, that is, keeping focus on the topic rather than any individual.

Okay let me see if I can revive the argument from Rev7's side. Video games exercise the imagination. If we partake in activities in a video game that would otherwise be consider sinful in real life, we are at least indulging the fantasy of committing sin. I remember one Bible passage (Matthew 5:28) "But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." Catholic boys like myself years ago would go to confession and confess "impure thoughts". In a sense, using your imagination to indulge in the pleasure of a sinful act, is itself sinful.

(Personally, I prefer not to thought-police myself too much and see a game as only a game. Acts of goodness towards real people far outweigh acts of evil towards imaginary people, IMO.)
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Old 10-20-2007, 08:42 PM   #59
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And another way to help resurrect Rev7's point:

Most people don't even play god games or other sort of games. I don't mean to imply that they got a life or not, but not playing "Game of the Century" does not mean you are actually missing anything truly important. Maybe they don't lay because they see it as immoral (like Rev7) or they don't just like it.

But, you can spend your free time doing something else...like writing, studying, sports, etc. And one has to realize the main point of games: To HAVE FUN. If Rev7 doesn't have fun playing God Games, then he shouldn't play God Games. Simple.

And just because Rev7 condemn one gerne of games does not lock Rev7 out from the rest of the gaming world, which can let you still have fun. There are "god games" out there that don't have to play as God but rather as Supreme Leader (Virtual Villagers) or Mayor (SimCity). Realize that the causal gaming market exist. I enjoyed Zuma more than I ever enjoyed Halo. Plus, there are games that promote religion itself, and they are good, altough it isn't that popular.


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Old 10-21-2007, 09:06 AM   #60
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Aren't we a few continents off-topic here?

As a Catholic, my first thought upon seeing this thread was: what the Track 29?

Video games aren't real. And since you don't worship yourself in god-games, I hardly see the issue. If you find digitalised apotheosis spilling over into real life, then start worrying.

To take another example: If, in Age of Mythology, I advance my civilisation by 'worship' of, say, Bes, does this mean I am a worshipper of Houron in reality? Of course not.

Its just the same as that playing Dark Side in KotOR II does not make me evil, nor (unfortunate though this sometimes seems) grant me Force Lightning.

Can we put this one to bed now?



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Old 10-21-2007, 03:17 PM   #61
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Wasn't this thread about God in video games? Well if your religious then yes it's wrong because your not supposed to make God into any kind of form, my preacher told me that.However if your not religious then it really doesn't matter.


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Old 10-21-2007, 03:50 PM   #62
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Splitting into a new thread: God, man, and the nature of sin


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