lfnetwork.com mark read register faq members calendar

Thread: God, man, and the nature of sin
Thread Tools Display Modes
Post a new thread. Sorry, this thread is closed. Indicate all threads in this forum as read. Subscribe to this forum. RSS feed: this forum RSS feed: all forums
Old 10-22-2007, 05:57 PM   #81
Achilles
Dapper Chimp
 
Achilles's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 8,204
Helpful! Veteran Modder Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tk102
In addition, the belief that God unifies all things helps to reinforce feelings of empathy. When I'm at work or when I'm driving, for example, and I feel angry towards someone, I can overcome those negative emotions by remembering that this person is not someone so different from me. That person and I share the same core being after all. And then suddenly being angry doesn't seem so important.
Ooo...this one caught my attention.

If we know that empathy is possible and clearly exists, how is it beneficial to attribute that empathy (or any other emotion you would like to use here) to an external source?

I understand that people do this. I guess I just don't understand why they do it (aside from the obvious "enculturation").

Thanks!
Achilles is offline   you may:
Old 10-22-2007, 05:58 PM   #82
Corinthian
Banned
 
Corinthian's Avatar
 
Status: Banned
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,165
Actually, we do have Free Will. We have a choice regarding that sin. We can choose to continue to hold onto that sin, or we can choose to give it to Jesus.

Alright, want to debate the semantics of knowledge ownership? What about national secrets? Would you say that the Government owns the schematics to our ICBM arsenals? Because they do. Knowledge can be owned, and that particular piece of knowledge was owned by God.
Corinthian is offline   you may:
Old 10-22-2007, 06:00 PM   #83
tk102
Well past expiration date
 
tk102's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 5,766
Current Game: Dragon Age: Origins
Forum Veteran Helpful! Notable contributor 
Corinthian do you ever get the feeling that the Christian God sounds like a passive-aggressive parent? "Sure Billy you can go out do whatever you want. When you get home, if you don't admit to everything you did wrong and aren't really sorry for it, I'm going to give you a beating for all of eternity and disown you." Does this Godness=goodness to you? Wouldn't a loving God be a little more understanding -- I mean after all if he put us here wasn't he darned sure everyone would sin? What's the point of casting people into hell? It's kind of an elitist amusement. Is there any reassurance in heaven that God's not going to judge you again for something?

But anyway, one thing that always confused me sin is the idea of God's omniscience. If God knows everything and knows what we're going to do, he surely also knows who's going to hell for sinning and who's not right? So why would sin make God angry? And why then condemn some and reward others? It's neither a reward nor a punishment if the outcome is predetermined. Kind of arbitrary on God's part don't you think?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
If we know that empathy is possible and clearly exists, how is it beneficial to attribute that empathy (or any other emotion you would like to use here) to an external source?
I'm not ascribing anything to an external source. There is nothing external.


tk102 is offline   you may:
Old 10-22-2007, 06:06 PM   #84
Achilles
Dapper Chimp
 
Achilles's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 8,204
Helpful! Veteran Modder Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinthian
Actually, we do have Free Will. We have a choice regarding that sin. We can choose to continue to hold onto that sin, or we can choose to give it to Jesus.

Alright, want to debate the semantics of knowledge ownership? What about national secrets? Would you say that the Government owns the schematics to our ICBM arsenals? Because they do. Knowledge can be owned, and that particular piece of knowledge was owned by God.
How does one own something intangible? An idea or thought, once shared, cannot be taken back. It is certainly possible to create an artificial system by which rights are assigned to individuals, but that isn't the same thing.

In the case of your example, the "knowledge" isn't "owned". It is kept secret and/or potential "knowers" are deceived, but again this is an artificial, intentional process. So are you suggesting that god is deceitful? How worth does "free will" have if the "willer" is prevented from having all the information at hand when making a decision? What does god have to fear that he can't be open and honest with his followers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tk102
I'm not ascribing anything to an external source. There is nothing external.
I guess I need some help understanding the statement that I previously quoted.

Please and thank you
Achilles is offline   you may:
Old 10-22-2007, 06:29 PM   #85
tk102
Well past expiration date
 
tk102's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 5,766
Current Game: Dragon Age: Origins
Forum Veteran Helpful! Notable contributor 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
I guess I need some help understanding the statement that I previously quoted.
The short answer is Me = You = God = All. Nothing external. Empathy is just understanding this.


tk102 is offline   you may:
Old 10-22-2007, 06:40 PM   #86
Corinthian
Banned
 
Corinthian's Avatar
 
Status: Banned
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,165
Good grief, can't I use a metaphor without someone picking it apart?

God IS pretty understanding. Sacrificing your own son so that your creation might be saved counts as being pretty understanding in my books.

It's not like God doesn't give us plenty of chances. We've got, for the most part, sixty to a hundred years to confess our sins to God and accept Jesus into our heart. That's a pretty sizable chunk of time from a terrestrial point of view. It's not like God gives us one chance and if we let that slip through our fingers he doesn't give us another one. On the contrary, God gives us hundreds of chances. Maybe more.

As for whether God knows our inevitable destination, that's called Predestination. I personally believe in it. God's omniscience, I believe, is because he's not bound by the same rules as we are, since he is a being not of the fourth dimension. Maybe even not of the dimensions. I don't really try to understand that, I'll leave that to the Theologian-Scientists.

Since God is not bound by time as we are, in fact, he created it, I believe he can look at time. He knows what's going to happen before it does, because time is essentially meaningless to him. Don't ask me to explain how you can be without time, please. I'd really rather not try to warp my own mind, Lovecraft style.

Yes, in a sense, it's already made up. But it's easier to think of it in terms of very deep knowledge of each of us. Have you ever guessed what a friend was going to do before he did it? Or vice versa? You might say it's the same way with God. He knows us so deeply that he knows what we'll choose before we choose it. However, despite that, we still have a choice.

After you enter Heaven, judgment is over. As your mind, body, and soul will be cleansed completely, you will no longer sin, as you will no longer desire to sin. Get it?
Corinthian is offline   you may:
Old 10-22-2007, 07:05 PM   #87
Rev7
I'm a Mage
 
Rev7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,208
Current Game: CoD 5 WaW; Skate 2
Helpful! 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinthian
God IS pretty understanding. Sacrificing your own son so that your creation might be saved counts as being pretty understanding in my books.
*********
It's not like God doesn't give us plenty of chances. We've got, for the most part, sixty to a hundred years to confess our sins to God and accept Jesus into our heart. That's a pretty sizable chunk of time from a terrestrial point of view. It's not like God gives us one chance and if we let that slip through our fingers he doesn't give us another one. On the contrary, God gives us hundreds of chances. Maybe more.

***********

After you enter Heaven, judgment is over. As your mind, body, and soul will be cleansed completely, you will no longer sin, as you will no longer desire to sin. Get it?
I totally agree! Once you enter heavan, you are perfect ! God and Jesus do give us many, many chances (for those who actually see it).

I was thinking about the first part, and the first thing that came to my mind was that we (us humans) could be considered dogs (in this analogy of course) and Jesus and God are the dog's Masters. The Masters are kind, loving, and they provide for us, but when we as dogs, say pee on the carpet, or chew up a pillow, or something we shouldn't do, we ,as dogs, get corrected for the certain things that we shouldn't do. We are trained to cut down on those things, by the Masters. This, I think, applies to this subject perfectly.

Rev7 is offline   you may:
Old 10-22-2007, 07:08 PM   #88
tk102
Well past expiration date
 
tk102's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 5,766
Current Game: Dragon Age: Origins
Forum Veteran Helpful! Notable contributor 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinthian
Don't ask me to explain how you can be without time, please. I'd really rather not try to warp my own mind, Lovecraft style.
Regarding predestination/free will etc... we actually had a nice thread about that awhile back when we all warped our minds pretty good.

How literal were you when you said that sin makes God angry? Because it seems He shouldn't be angry if He predestined everyone. Or maybe just angry at Himself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinthian
As your mind, body, and soul will be cleansed completely, you will no longer sin, as you will no longer desire to sin.
Do you think you will still have identity? That is, that your being will distinct from the being of God? I think you will say yes to that.

What exactly makes one incorporeal soul distinct from another? Is it their volition?

You said you will no longer sin -- did you mean you will lose free will when you enter heaven or just the ability to sin? If it the former, it seems that as you said earlier, God is stripping you of something that people want. If it is the latter, doesn't that suggest (as Ray Jones was saying) that God could do this now while we're on earth and still leave us with free will?


tk102 is offline   you may:
Old 10-22-2007, 07:10 PM   #89
Achilles
Dapper Chimp
 
Achilles's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 8,204
Helpful! Veteran Modder Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tk102
The short answer is Me = You = God = All. Nothing external. Empathy is just understanding this.
It seems to me that the equation still works without a reference to god. So why include it?

Also, there are some obvious problems with trying to reference god without making it something external, but for the sake of our conversation, I think we can leave those alone for right now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinthian
God IS pretty understanding. Sacrificing your own son so that your creation might be saved counts as being pretty understanding in my books.
If god wanted to forgive, when why couldn't he just forgive? If something somewhere requires that his son must be sacrificed, then it would seem that god is forced to operate under rules that he himself did not create. That presents a problem for the argument of omnipotence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinthian
It's not like God doesn't give us plenty of chances. We've got, for the most part, sixty to a hundred years to confess our sins to God and accept Jesus into our heart. That's a pretty sizable chunk of time from a terrestrial point of view. It's not like God gives us one chance and if we let that slip through our fingers he doesn't give us another one. On the contrary, God gives us hundreds of chances. Maybe more.
Well, if god is omniscient and omnibenevolent, then wouldn't it stand to reason that he would know before we did which sins we would commit? But he can't interfere because of free will, correct? Which brings us back to the problem of there being rules that god can't violate, which puts his omnipotence in something of a catch 22.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinthian
As for whether God knows our inevitable destination, that's called Predestination. I personally believe in it. God's omniscience, I believe, is because he's not bound by the same rules as we are, since he is a being not of the fourth dimension. Maybe even not of the dimensions. I don't really try to understand that, I'll leave that to the Theologian-Scientists.
If you aren't sure of the argument then why have you accepted the conclusion? It would seem that if you aren't certain, then you have to at least consider the possibility that the conclusion you have accepted is incorrect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinthian
Since God is not bound by time as we are, in fact, he created it, I believe he can look at time. He knows what's going to happen before it does, because time is essentially meaningless to him. Don't ask me to explain how you can be without time, please. I'd really rather not try to warp my own mind, Lovecraft style.
If all things are predetermined, then there is no free will. Without free will, then god's capacity to allow you to sin argues against his omnibenevolence and his omnipotence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinthian
Yes, in a sense, it's already made up. But it's easier to think of it in terms of very deep knowledge of each of us. Have you ever guessed what a friend was going to do before he did it? Or vice versa? You might say it's the same way with God. He knows us so deeply that he knows what we'll choose before we choose it. However, despite that, we still have a choice.
I don't think these examples are comparable. If I know someone very well, then it doesn't take a great deal of power to be able to accurately guess what they are going to do. If I have a buddy that shows up late to everything, then I'm not going to be shocked and amazed when I accurately predict that he's not going to meet me at the bar precisely at 8pm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinthian
After you enter Heaven, judgment is over. As your mind, body, and soul will be cleansed completely, you will no longer sin, as you will no longer desire to sin. Get it?
I understand that's the argument. I'm still stuck on how we can possibly know this is true.

Last edited by Achilles; 10-22-2007 at 07:25 PM. Reason: Response for Corinthian
Achilles is offline   you may:
Old 10-22-2007, 07:15 PM   #90
tk102
Well past expiration date
 
tk102's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 5,766
Current Game: Dragon Age: Origins
Forum Veteran Helpful! Notable contributor 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
It seems to me that the equation still works without a reference to god. So why include it?
That's fine. I prefer the term Brahman anyway since "God" has many unintentional Judeo-Christian connotations.


tk102 is offline   you may:
Old 10-22-2007, 07:19 PM   #91
Totenkopf
English spoken in What
 
Totenkopf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: What?
Posts: 4,787
Imperialist Meatbags Guild Member The Walking Carpets Guild Member Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tk102
Corinthian do you ever get the feeling that the Christian God sounds like a passive-aggressive parent? "Sure Billy you can go out do whatever you want. When you get home, if you don't admit to everything you did wrong and aren't really sorry for it, I'm going to give you a beating for all of eternity and disown you." Does this Godness=goodness to you? Wouldn't a loving God be a little more understanding -- I mean after all if he put us here wasn't he darned sure everyone would sin? What's the point of casting people into hell? It's kind of an elitist amusement. Is there any reassurance in heaven that God's not going to judge you again for something?

But anyway, one thing that always confused me sin is the idea of God's omniscience. If God knows everything and knows what we're going to do, he surely also knows who's going to hell for sinning and who's not right? So why would sin make God angry? And why then condemn some and reward others? It's neither a reward nor a punishment if the outcome is predetermined. Kind of arbitrary on God's part don't you think?
More importantly, why would God create something that He knew in advance He would basically discard in the trash bin? If you create something flawed, it would seem somewhat petulant to then get angry when it "messed up" and consign it to "eternal punishment", especially when you consider that eternity is a whole helluva lot longer than the mere time people are given on earth to get it right. This would also seem to fly in the face of the concepts of a just and loving and merciful being.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
Totenkopf is offline   you may:
Old 10-22-2007, 07:25 PM   #92
Corinthian
Banned
 
Corinthian's Avatar
 
Status: Banned
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,165
God gets angry when we sin, yes. But logically, haven't you ever gotten angry over something you were certain would happen? For example, when you get a new puppy, it's pretty much guaranteed the dog is going to not be housebroken, but that doesn't mean you're not going to be irritated when he takes a crap on the couch.

He didn't discard us in the trash bin, you'll notice. So that whole thing is rendered pointless.

TK, when I said that...well, why do we sin? Because we want to. Even a Christian is drawn to sin because of the desires of his flesh, or, to be more crude, your penis talking. It's not that we won't have free will, we won't sin because we will no longer have the desire to indulge in sinful acts.
Corinthian is offline   you may:
Old 10-22-2007, 07:31 PM   #93
Achilles
Dapper Chimp
 
Achilles's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 8,204
Helpful! Veteran Modder Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tk102
That's fine. I prefer the term Brahman anyway since "God" has many unintentional Judeo-Christian connotations.
Depending on how we use the term, then either the question still applies or including the term is redundant.

Maybe if I rephrase the question this way: What do we gain by adding concept to things such as "empathy" that do not appear to be necessary?

If empathy works via you=me=us (aka ubuntu or whatever) then how do we benefit by including god, Brahman, cosmic consciousness, buddha, etc? What do we gain?
Achilles is offline   you may:
Old 10-22-2007, 08:04 PM   #94
tk102
Well past expiration date
 
tk102's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 5,766
Current Game: Dragon Age: Origins
Forum Veteran Helpful! Notable contributor 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Depending on how we use the term, then either the question still applies or including the term is redundant
It can be considered redundant certainly but that's kind of the point. There is never a need more than one equals sign in an equation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Maybe if I rephrase the question this way: What do we gain by adding concept to things such as "empathy" that do not appear to be necessary?
It's hard to know exactly what you're asking. For someone like myself that believes "That thou art", the epistemology of empathy is derived from that knowledge. Empathy results from it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
If empathy works via you=me=us (aka ubuntu or whatever) then how do we benefit by including god, Brahman, cosmic consciousness, buddha, etc? What do we gain?
What do we gain... what do I gain perhaps you mean to ask, because it's never my intent to proselytize, only question things. I'll discuss the matters privately with you if you prefer as the gains for me are personal.


tk102 is offline   you may:
Old 10-22-2007, 09:48 PM   #95
Totenkopf
English spoken in What
 
Totenkopf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: What?
Posts: 4,787
Imperialist Meatbags Guild Member The Walking Carpets Guild Member Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinthian
God gets angry when we sin, yes. But logically, haven't you ever gotten angry over something you were certain would happen? For example, when you get a new puppy, it's pretty much guaranteed the dog is going to not be housebroken, but that doesn't mean you're not going to be irritated when he takes a crap on the couch.

He didn't discard us in the trash bin, you'll notice. So that whole thing is rendered pointless.
It's not a question of God becoming angry or disappointed when His creations fall short of the mark. My point, especially as regards predestination, is that if God creates a person that He knows will end up in hell, so to speak, then why create someone He'll only "throw in the trash bin" (they wouldn't have made the flawed decisions that they did had they NOT been created in the first place)? So the question is not, as you put it, rendered pointless.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
Totenkopf is offline   you may:
Old 10-22-2007, 11:08 PM   #96
Corinthian
Banned
 
Corinthian's Avatar
 
Status: Banned
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,165
Quote:
Yes, in a sense, it's already made up. But it's easier to think of it in terms of very deep knowledge of each of us. Have you ever guessed what a friend was going to do before he did it? Or vice versa? You might say it's the same way with God. He knows us so deeply that he knows what we'll choose before we choose it. However, despite that, we still have a choice.
Please don't make me repeat myself.
Corinthian is offline   you may:
Old 10-22-2007, 11:14 PM   #97
RobQel-Droma
Blah
 
RobQel-Droma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Up yours. X0
Posts: 2,216
Contest winner - Fan Fiction 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Jones
That doesn't answer the question. Why? It makes no sense. There is no point in punishing a child for what its parents did.
That would be assuming that the child has done nothing. We all have sinned. (besides, I don't recall God punishing people for their ancestry....)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Jones
Why?
You'd rather to carry the sins of humanity yourself?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Jones
Why didn't he just make a 'law' that takes 'sin' out of the equation once for all. When his ways are mysterious and he can do thing we can't comprehend, why doesn't he do something not imaginable and makes sin go away just like *poof*.
I understand where you're coming from on this, many people have argued this way. However, as Corinthian said, if he wanted automatons, he would have made them. Wouldn't you want to have a choice about it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Jones
Yes, yes, of course! But who said something about "strip out our free will and thought and make us robots"? I didn't. This was about "bye bye sin".
Well, naturally, if you take away sin, you also remove the capacity to sin, so there would be (in principle) a stripping of choice from us.
RobQel-Droma is offline   you may:
Old 10-22-2007, 11:38 PM   #98
Achilles
Dapper Chimp
 
Achilles's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 8,204
Helpful! Veteran Modder Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
That would be assuming that the child has done nothing. We all have sinned. (besides, I don't recall God punishing people for their ancestry....)
Erm...original sin? We are born with sin because Adam ate from the apple. The pain of childbirth is the penance that women pay for Eve. Sounds like punishment for ancestry to me. If none of us are born without sin (i.e. The Fall), then it certainly would seem that there's some form of inheritance happening there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
You'd rather to carry the sins of humanity yourself?
Well, since there is no such thing as sin...

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
I understand where you're coming from on this, many people have argued this way. However, as Corinthian said, if he wanted automatons, he would have made them. Wouldn't you want to have a choice about it?
Free will implies that god isn't omniscient. I'm afraid it can't be both ways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
Well, naturally, if you take away sin, you also remove the capacity to sin, so there would be (in principle) a stripping of choice from us.
I'm not sure I follow. Since sin is a concept born of the human imagination, I'm not sure how it could possibly influence our capacity to make decisions. It seems that whether we decide to accept the concept of sin would in and of itself be a choice, don't you think
Achilles is offline   you may:
Old 10-22-2007, 11:43 PM   #99
Totenkopf
English spoken in What
 
Totenkopf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: What?
Posts: 4,787
Imperialist Meatbags Guild Member The Walking Carpets Guild Member Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinthian
Please don't make me repeat myself.
If this was aimed at my post, it still fails to address the question. Feel free to repeat yourself if you feel you must (though I fear it will fall wide of the mark).

Quote:
Free will implies that god isn't omniscient.
Nonsequitor. It does raise other questions, though. But, it demonstrates that such a G/god isn't a micromanager.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
Totenkopf is offline   you may:
Old 10-23-2007, 12:04 AM   #100
Rev7
I'm a Mage
 
Rev7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,208
Current Game: CoD 5 WaW; Skate 2
Helpful! 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Well, since there is no such thing as sin...
Sorry but I beg to differ. Focus on 1b...for the atheists out there......

Quote:
Originally Posted by www.merriam-webster.com
1sin
Pronunciation: \ˈsin\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English sinne, from Old English synn; akin to Old High German sunta sin and probably to Latin sont-, sons guilty, est is more at is
Date: before 12th century
1 a: an offense against religious or moral law b: an action that is or is felt to be highly reprehensible <it's a sin to waste food> c: an often serious shortcoming : fault
2 a: transgression of the law of God b: a vitiated state of human nature in which the self is estranged from God
synonyms see offense

Rev7 is offline   you may:
Old 10-23-2007, 12:46 AM   #101
Achilles
Dapper Chimp
 
Achilles's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 8,204
Helpful! Veteran Modder Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev7
Sorry but I beg to differ. Focus on 1b...for the atheists out there......
1b and 1c are both turns of phrase. If we're going to discuss the religious concept of "sin", let's just stick to that.

Every other definition (those that relate to the context in which the word was being used) is evidence that sin is a human invention. No argument that some acts are immoral, however if there is no god, then one could not say that said acts would offend him/her/it/them.
Achilles is offline   you may:
Old 10-23-2007, 01:11 AM   #102
Rev7
I'm a Mage
 
Rev7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,208
Current Game: CoD 5 WaW; Skate 2
Helpful! 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Every other definition (those that relate to the context in which the word was being used) is evidence that sin is a human invention.
In a certain perspective sin was created by man(and woman). God, IMO, gave Adam and Eve a choice whether or not to eat the apple of the tree of knowledge, so in a certain perspective God created sin. I think that that just depends on the way you look at it. Definitions sometimes just don't make sense, and in this reply and the one before this, I thought that specific definition was an alternitive way to look at the word sin.

Rev7 is offline   you may:
Old 10-23-2007, 02:09 AM   #103
Sabretooth
鬼龍院皐月
 
Sabretooth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 9,364
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev7
In a certain perspective sin was created by man(and woman). God, IMO, gave Adam and Eve a choice whether or not to eat the apple of the tree of knowledge, so in a certain perspective God created sin. I think that that just depends on the way you look at it. Definitions sometimes just don't make sense, and in this reply and the one before this, I thought that specific definition was an alternitive way to look at the word sin.
See, that's why religion irritates me. It doesn't have hard, tangible facts and definitions like science does.


Sabretooth is offline   you may:
Old 10-23-2007, 04:50 AM   #104
Ray Jones
[armleglegarmhead]
 
Ray Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: digital
Posts: 8,255
10 year veteran! LF Jester Helpful! Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinthian
God IS pretty understanding. Sacrificing your own son so that your creation might be saved counts as being pretty understanding in my books.
-- "Hey, son, you know, I have to put you through some pain, because, you know, I am so understanding, and those people out there did something horrible, and you gonna pay for that, that okay with you?"

Seriously, on the planet where *I* come from, we (at least seek to) punish those who did the crime.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
You'd rather to carry the sins of humanity yourself?
Huh? Everybody is responsible for what he does, why burden it to one single person? It just makes no sense. It's not loving and caring, to let those get away who originally did bad things and let someone else suffer for this. It's unjust. And it's pointless to hold people responsible for long gone things done. I'm not saying forget past things, as we should not do that, to learn from that and not make a mistake twice.

Quote:
I understand where you're coming from on this, many people have argued this way. However, as Corinthian said, if he wanted automatons, he would have made them. Wouldn't you want to have a choice about it?
No, you don't understand. Because if you did, you'd not talk about "automatons". Corinthian has yet to make plausible that removing sin from existence means we'd have to be "automatons". Also he has not but once made a statement to my question how we have a choice to sin or not if it is determined that "all humans have sinned" from the begin with, even new born babies.

Where is that choice you are talking about?

At what point in *her* live had my daughter the choice to whether "stay clean" or to "become a sinner". If we can chose freely, then when is that?

Quote:
Well, naturally, if you take away sin, you also remove the capacity to sin, so there would be (in principle) a stripping of choice from us.
No. Not the capacity to sin is to be taken from us (with sin itself remaining), sin itself has to be removed. The concept of sin, the idea of sin, Satan, NO SIN AT ALL.


Ray Jones is offline   you may:
Old 10-23-2007, 05:51 AM   #105
True_Avery
Banned
 
Status: Banned
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 2,002
Anybody considered the thought that right and wrong, good and evil, sin and just are relative terms used to describe the opinions and actions of others that we may or may not agree with, and that law and punishment is simply in place for people that society as a whole has deemed "bad" by a largely accepted set of modern day morals that most of it's people don't even pay attention to?

I honestly hope to see the day when people take responsibility for their own actions and the actons of others instead of blaming it on two naked people who decided to eat an apple six-ten thousand years ago. You cannot remove sin from a society, from humanity because sin has no true definition. You would end up removing humanity, and if you wanted to take it a step further, all life from he universe. Because, you know, rocks cannot sin.

Sigh. I don't even know why I try.
True_Avery is offline   you may:
Old 10-23-2007, 06:15 AM   #106
Ray Jones
[armleglegarmhead]
 
Ray Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: digital
Posts: 8,255
10 year veteran! LF Jester Helpful! Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
Anybody considered the thought that right and wrong, good and evil, sin and just are relative terms used to describe the opinions and actions of others that we may or may not agree with, and that law and punishment is simply in place for people that society as a whole has deemed "bad" by a largely accepted set of modern day morals that most of it's people don't even pay attention to?
Why, yes, of course, I did.

Quote:
I honestly hope to see the day when people take responsibility for their own actions and the actons of others instead of blaming it on two naked people who decided to eat an apple six-ten thousand years ago.
Bravo!!

Quote:
You cannot remove sin from a society, from humanity because sin has no true definition. You would end up removing humanity, and if you wanted to take it a step further, all life from he universe.
I think an omnipotent god would find another way.

Quote:
Because, you know, rocks cannot sin.
I'm not sure if the god of rocks would see that in a different light.

Quote:
Sigh. I don't even know why I try.
Because you know you want to...


Ray Jones is offline   you may:
Old 10-23-2007, 06:31 AM   #107
Corinthian
Banned
 
Corinthian's Avatar
 
Status: Banned
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,165
No, Avery. I believe Moral Relativity is a load of bunk.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Jones
-- "Hey, son, you know, I have to put you through some pain, because, you know, I am so understanding, and those people out there did something horrible, and you gonna pay for that, that okay with you?"
Jesus wasn't an unwilling participant in the plan. He agreed to it. And considering they are the Trinity, Three as One, it was likely as agonizing for the Father as it was Jesus.
Quote:
Seriously, on the planet where *I* come from, we (at least seek to) punish those who did the crime.
Yes, that is usually how it works. But since God is merciful, he doesn't want us all to go to Hell. Or are you complaining that you still have to pay the price for Adam and Eve? Then here's two words, guaranteed not to make you feel better. Too bad.

Quote:
Huh? Everybody is responsible for what he does, why burden it to one single person? It just makes no sense. It's not loving and caring, to let those get away who originally did bad things and let someone else suffer for this. It's unjust. And it's pointless to hold people responsible for long gone things done. I'm not saying forget past things, as we should not do that, to learn from that and not make a mistake twice.
Everyone does bad things, firstly. So you wouldn't get off the hook anyway. Besides, original sin has more to do with Eve bringing sin into the world. Before sin, the world was perfect. Then when Adam and Eve sinned, that perfection got thrown out of whack.

And, why shouldn't you pay for the sins of your forebears? The concept is practically hardwired into your consciousness. "My dad doesn't like your dad."

Besides, how do you propose that Adam and Eve are punished for their sin while their descendants are free of it? Warp them to another planet after they gave birth to Seth? Oh, wait. Seth was born after Cain murdered Abel, so that wouldn't work...
Quote:
No, you don't understand. Because if you did, you'd not talk about "automatons". Corinthian has yet to make plausible that removing sin from existence means we'd have to be "automatons". Also he has not but once made a statement to my question how we have a choice to sin or not if it is determined that "all humans have sinned" from the begin with, even new born babies.
To choose Christ or Sin is the most important choice a man will ever make. It pretty much decides every significant choice from then, until your death. You still have choices, but none of them are at all significant. Yes, you would still have a marginal amount of choice, but you wouldn't have real free will. You'd be an Asimov Robot. Good old Three Rules.
Quote:
Where is that choice you are talking about?

At what point in *her* live had my daughter the choice to whether "stay clean" or to "become a sinner". If we can chose freely, then when is that?
The Choice comes during your life. You're always a sinner. We haven't had the choice to start from a clean slate since Eve. The choice is in whether you hold onto that sin, or you let God handle it. I believe I've said this several times already.
Quote:
No. Not the capacity to sin is to be taken from us (with sin itself remaining), sin itself has to be removed. The concept of sin, the idea of sin, Satan, NO SIN AT ALL.
Why should God do that? Why should we have our crimes washed away before we serve our punishment? Besides, Sin is an integral part of our free will: Without sin, we no longer have the capacity to choose something over God. We can choose insignificant things, like which pants to wear and what movie to see, but what's Free Will when the only choices you're able to make are meaningless ones?

And who are you to tell God what to do with his power, anyway?
Corinthian is offline   you may:
Old 10-23-2007, 07:48 AM   #108
Sabretooth
鬼龍院皐月
 
Sabretooth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 9,364
Quote:
Without sin, we no longer have the capacity to choose something over God.
Considering that choosing anything over God is going to send you to eternity's worth burning Alcatraz, I hardly think that capacity even matters, in the end. Imagine this: A king establishes democracy in his kingdom, but states only the king can be leader and decide the law.

Quote:
We can choose insignificant things, like which pants to wear and what movie to see, but what's Free Will when the only choices you're able to make are meaningless ones?
Ah, so I have a rather "meaningful" choice of not sinning and sinning if I have Free Will. Now, I choose not sinning, I'm happy, God's happy - everyone's cool. I "choose" to sin, I get sent to Hell. So, I'm walking on a road and someone gives me this choice: Hi man, you can go to your place, if you want. But I offer you a choice of killing me and not killing me. He does not explain further. I choose the other option. He falls, bleeding and says "Oh man, too bad. You'll have to go to jail now, sorry." What use is this free will if one option is going to screw you up real bad, and you know it.

Quote:
And who are you to tell God what to do with his power, anyway?
A sensible thinking, democracy-believing, anti-monarchy individual. God's "kingdom" can go to hell, I want a democracy. (semi-serious statement, don't think over it)


Sabretooth is offline   you may:
Old 10-23-2007, 08:16 AM   #109
Ray Jones
[armleglegarmhead]
 
Ray Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: digital
Posts: 8,255
10 year veteran! LF Jester Helpful! Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinthian
Jesus wasn't an unwilling participant in the plan. He agreed to it. And considering they are the Trinity, Three as One, it was likely as agonizing for the Father as it was Jesus.
Fairy tales next door please.

Quote:
Yes, that is usually how it works. But since God is merciful, he doesn't want us all to go to Hell.
No all of us. Those who are full of sin. Like Satan.

Quote:
Or are you complaining that you still have to pay the price for Adam and Eve? Then here's two words, guaranteed not to make you feel better. Too bad.
Complaining? Naaaaah. I don't complain. Disagreement yes, complain, no. Or do you want plead guilty and take responsibility regarding cruel and death bringing historic events like the ... crusades???

Quote:
And, why shouldn't you pay for the sins of your forebears? The concept is practically hardwired into your consciousness. "My dad doesn't like your dad."
Because it's crap like that which causes wars and fights, and thus more unnecessary sin. Why should I care about your dad doesn't liking my dad? Our dads might be sinful idiots, and we could be BFFs free of sin.

Quote:
The Choice comes during your life. You're always a sinner.
Huh? During life? How can I choose not to be a sinner when I am always a sinner? poppycock. Also, when the choice comes during lief, how come that even unborn babies are considered sinners?

Quote:
We haven't had the choice to start from a clean slate since Eve.
Aha? Nonsense. Eve is dead since forever now, how does that relate to me?

Quote:
The choice is in whether you hold onto that sin, or you let God handle it. I believe I've said this several times already.
Since I have not done that sin, I hard can hold onto it.

Quote:
Why should God do that?
Because sin displeases him, and it brings death and suffering. Would you stop death and suffering if you could? I bet as a good Christian you would, eh? Is god not a good Christian.

Quote:
Why should we have our crimes washed away before we serve our punishment?
Without sin, no crimes to wash away...

Quote:
Besides, Sin is an integral part of our free will: Without sin, we no longer have the capacity to choose something over God.
What's so bad about it? Also, without sin, choosing something over god would be no sin anymore.

Quote:
We can choose insignificant things, like which pants to wear and what movie to see, but what's Free Will when the only choices you're able to make are meaningless ones?
So the only important choice, and the only proper reason for free will to exist is to choose god? How..colourful.

Quote:
And who are you to tell God what to do with his power, anyway?
Name's Ray Jones. I'm the new one. I worked upstairs at the sales dept. before. I've always dreamed of working at the Brazilian wax test range and now I'm finally here. Thank you.



Last edited by Ray Jones; 10-23-2007 at 03:43 PM. Reason: no alarm - no fun ;~~
Ray Jones is offline   you may:
Old 10-23-2007, 09:04 AM   #110
Corinthian
Banned
 
Corinthian's Avatar
 
Status: Banned
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,165
Hey, fine. You want to be flippant about your soul, that's fine by me. I personally don't really care. I think we've about explored every corner of this. Besides, I'm tired of trying to explain the basics of the Christian faith and half the Bible to someone who doesn't even try to understand.

~~~

Last edited by tk102; 10-23-2007 at 01:22 PM. Reason: Godwin's law tangent = off topic
Corinthian is offline   you may:
Old 10-23-2007, 09:32 AM   #111
Ray Jones
[armleglegarmhead]
 
Ray Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: digital
Posts: 8,255
10 year veteran! LF Jester Helpful! Forum Veteran 
Well, I don't want you to explain Christian faith to me, and I got my own view on things already, thank you. As for being flippant with my soul, you got your deal with god, I got mine: I must not sneak secretly into her shower room I can come in openly at any given time - for that I had to swear I will never stop being curious and always be as sexey as I am .. and I have to tell her everything 'bout Plan E.

See, basically I wanted to explore the hows and whys of what's behind that Christian faith you propose so eager. With my doubting and questioning I wanted to gain knowledge not faith.


Ray Jones is offline   you may:
Old 10-23-2007, 02:16 PM   #112
tk102
Well past expiration date
 
tk102's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 5,766
Current Game: Dragon Age: Origins
Forum Veteran Helpful! Notable contributor 
Sabretooth, you are Warned for ad hominem remarks even after I was kind enough to nudge.

Godwin's Law is not on topic.

Thread re-opened for now...
tk102 is offline   you may:
Old 10-24-2007, 12:43 PM   #113
Jae Onasi
Antiquis temporibus, nati tibi similes in rupibus ventosissimis exponebantur ad necem
 
Jae Onasi's Avatar
 
Status: Super Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 10,912
Current Game: Guild Wars 2, VtMB, TOR
Alderaan News Holopics contributor Helpful! LucasCast staff Veteran Fan Fic Author 
OK, I'm going to make a few assumptions before starting this whole discussion and answer some of the questions here.
1. There is a God. If there is no God, then sin/good/evil become irrelevant in this particular discussion.
2. I'm looking at it through the Christian paradigm, because that's what I'm most familiar with.
3. With those 2 above in mind, we then move to the nature of God--omniscient (all-knowing), omnipotent (all-powerful), and holy/all-good.
4. Christ was the physical embodiment of God, and came to serve as the substitute of payment for our sin.
5. God created us because He wanted to have a relationship with us (the only human equivalent I can think of is deciding to have children because you have love to share with children and want to have a family, and that's probably an incomplete approximation).
6. This is my opinion.

What is sin? The antithesis of good, and more importantly, our choice to willfully do that which we know is wrong. If you've ever intentionally done something to hurt someone, you've sinned. If you whacked your brother/sister/cousin on the head in anger or said something hurtful to someone, you've sinned. In that respect, we've all sinned--I don't think any one of us can say we've _never_ done something hurtful to someone else. Our capacity/ability to sin is something we've 'inherited' from our forebears, but our choice to commit sin is still very much our own, and thus we are all individually responsible for those sins that we ourselves commit. This is why very young children are not condemned to hell despite having 'inherited' the capacity to sin. They have to be mentally mature enough to have the understanding that what they're doing is wrong in order to be held accountable. So, I don't believe babies or the mentally disabled are sent to hell. This is also the reason why the fruit (legend says it's an apple, the Bible doesn't specify) itself wasn't important--it was Adam and Eve's willful disobedience of God's requirement not to eat the fruit that was the problem. Learning what was good and evil meant they (and us) were now responsible for doing what was good and not doing what was evil.

In terms of God and sin, sin is doing what God has asked us not to do, or not doing something God does want us to do. God's not sitting up in heaven waiting for us to do something wrong so that He can zap us into hell. He wants to have a relationship with us. You cannot force someone to have a relationship with you. They have to choose to have that relationship with you. You cannot force someone to love you, they have to choose that. God has extended His love to us, but He cannot force us to love Him, otherwise it's not really love, it's at best forced worship and at worst a falsehood. That is the nature of free will--the choice to love/have a relationship with Him or not. I chose that relationship initially as a way to avoid the ultimate consequences of sin--being 11 at the time, it was pretty black-and-white thinking. Some people do choose that for the 'get out of hell free' card. I continue in that relationship because I choose to express love back to Him. The fact that following rules like 'don't kill' and 'don't steal' are also generally beneficial to my life is an added plus.

The lust thing--there's a big difference between appreciating someone's attractiveness and obsessing about a sex act with that person. The verse mentioned previously referenced in particular lusting after a neighbor's wife. Acting on that lust would involve harming the relationship between that husband and wife, aside from the paternity issues should she have gotten pregnant from someone acting on their lust.

Can God take away sin? Yes. Does He? No. Why? Taking away sin takes away our choice to do that which is good or evil. God doesn't want automatons and Stepford wives saying "Oh, yes, we love you God" in emotionless droning. He wants people to actually mean what they say and choose Him because they want to, not because they have to. I can't force my kids to love me, nor would I want to force them, because if I did, I know the love wouldn't be genuine. Part of love is the choice to give that love or not. If you take away the choice, you've taken away an integral part of love and rendered it worthless. God longs to have a relationship with all of us, but we each have to make the choice whether or not to have that relationship with Him, too.

What's the deal with Christ dying on the cross for us?
Christ is the physical embodiment of God, and He chose to do that for our benefit. Christ had the power to walk away from the crucifixion had He chosen to do so. He could have fled Jerusalem, He could have prevented Judas from identifying him to those who came to arrest him, and He could have gotten down from the cross if He wanted to. He opted to give Himself as a sacrifice--offering His spiritual purity as payment for our spiritual imperfection. The Bible tells us He did that because He loved all of us. I would give my life if it meant my children could escape death. Why would God not want to do the same for all of us?

Theologians have studied these concepts extensively and written countless books on these subjects. It's hard to do that any kind of justice in a short post.


From MST3K's spoof of "Hercules Unchained"--heard as Roman medic soldiers carry off an unconscious Greek Hercules on a 1950's Army green canvas stretcher: "Hi, we're IX-I-I. Did somebody dial IX-I-I?"

Read The Adventures of Jolee Bindo and see the amazing Peep Surgery
Story WIP: The Dragonfighters
My blog: Confessions of a Geeky Mom--Latest post: Security Alerts!
Love Star Trek AND gaming? Check out Lotus Fleet.

Jae Onasi is offline   you may:
Old 10-24-2007, 05:48 PM   #114
True_Avery
Banned
 
Status: Banned
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 2,002
Interesting.

I like your definition of Sin, but I can only see that really applying to human beings. Humans, as we assume we are the most intelligent being on this planet, also assume greatly that we are all important through being made, or through evolution, or survival. That God(s) truly looks down upon us, with the rest of the world created directly for us. So, I ask... Why humans?

If you believe in both evolution and are spiritual, then consider the fact we are not all that evolved compared to most animals. Humans, or at least humans as we know them, have been evolving for over 10,000 years, about the end of the last Ice Age, and our "species" has been around for a good 200,000. Why love something so new, so selectively? Sharks have been nearly unchanged 100s of millions of years.

The cockroach is one of the most evolved creatures on the face of this planet. Taking a line from the TV show Heroes, cockroaches are far more evolved than us, have lived far longer than us, and will be around for millions of years after humans are gone. If the cockroach is the near pinnacle of evolution, couldn't you say that God(s) would be a cockroach? Don't we have a long way until we can claim to have the form and selective love from "our" God(s) when we are so incredibly new to a planet we show no respect for?

Survival of the Fittest, afterall, is by no means a merciful part of nature. Human beings try this on eachother now and then, but it usually ends in failure. The Nazi's, the Spartans, Religious cleansing. We try, but we really have no idea what we are doing.

If you believe that all other animals aren't mentally stunted by God, then you will can choose to see that many animals show incredible signs of intelligence and social patterns similar to humans.

Bonobo Chimp:
"Bonobos are capable of passing the mirror-recognition test for self-awareness. They communicate through primarily vocal means, although the meanings of their vocalizations are not currently known; however, humans do understand their facial expressions[7] and some of their natural hand gestures, such as their invitation to play. Two Bonobos at the Great Ape Trust, Kanzi and Panbanisha, have been taught a vocabulary of over 3,000 words which they can type using a special keyboard of lexigrams (geometric symbols), and they can respond to spoken sentences. Some, such as bioethicist Peter Singer, argue that these results qualify them for the "rights to survival and life," rights that humans theoretically accord to all persons."
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonobo

They are almost as smart as us, plus they have a better social structure than we do. They are a female run society, they almost never fight or go to war with each other or other tribes, and they constantly engage in social sex with each other as a pastime, the majority of the time being homosexual. If any intelligent animal is more deserving of having a kind face upon them, it would probably be the Bonobo.

But, on the other side, I can see why God(s) would pay attention to us. We are the babies of the planet. The new kids who don't know what they are doing and still have a long, long way until we have the stable social abilities of many other animals. We need a kind hand on our shoulder to help us get through the hard times if we don't destroy ourselves in the meantime.

Although, if you believe, like many of the religious people I know of, that animals are below us than everything I just said went out the window. Oh well.

Christ, in religious lore, gave him life to save us all. I am rather confused on how murdering the son or embodiment of God saves any of us. Doesn't that just prove that we may be beyond the capability to "save"? He may have "died for us", but we still killed him. Did he save us from the devil? Did everybody before christ go directly to hell? Please explain more, as the more I think on it the more I feel like an ant with a magnifying glass aiming at me.

And whats with Hell? Where does God have the right to send some people to a gated community and throw others into eternal torment for some sins they did because God either made them born that way, or let them do some stupid stuff in the 70 or so years they existed. 70 years isn't even the blink of an eye to eternity and I failed to see how sending people to feel pain for all time solves ANYTHING. I do understand that many people, even the religious, do not believe in a hell. But if God is going to choose who is naughty and who is nice, then I am not sure I like this God. Sounds more like a demented Santa with a complex. If you can, please explain more of this.

Lust is a interesting topic. We may disregard it completely, but how do we know that isn't a bad thing? The common chimpanzee, which regularly treats its females terrible and more than often "rapes" them, keeps females away from each other and has tight social groups and a tight rope on sexuality, constantly having wars with other chimps and fighting CONSTANTLY over who gets what... much like humans, actually. The Bonobo on the other hand, which has a much free'er social branch with the female leading the group instead, has recreational homosexual sex and relations... they are one of the most peaceful animals on this green earth. So, how bad can lust be when giving into it completely ends up with what the Bonobos have? All I can currently see is humans acting like the common chimp which is not a peaceful existence at all. We have ruled homosexuality as "unnatural" when it obviously is not, though many will disagree, and our men have a god complex and more often than not rule over the female of our species. We fight over money, food, and power and hide love and sex like it is a completely terrible thing. I think nature has some of the point I am trying to make backed up.

If fact, I might just make a thread on that topic...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae
It was Adam and Eve's willful disobedience of God's requirement not to eat the fruit that was the problem.
And that was a bad thing? You speak of robots, who simply say "We love you God." Before Adam and Eve discovered Sin and disobedience they were those robots. Living day by day, loving God and what God did for them. Then, one day, they took the Apple against Gods will. God became angry that he didn't have completely obedient servants anymore. If he became angry over those two and cursed all of humanity, what in the world makes you think for a second that he cares about you at all? It sounds more like a parent finding out their son is gay and throwing him out of the house for not being what they wanted him to be. He didn't even give them a second chance! If he said screw them, what makes you think that we simply are not all going straight to hell? Or, is that why Christ died for us? Did it really take him 8 thousand years to stop sending souls straight to hell?

Many may point at Adam and Eve and blame our problems on them, but if Adam and Eve were in front of me right now I would be one of the few to hug them and thank them endlessly for taking that apple. Because they took the apple, they became free from Gods servitude. Because Eve was cursed with pains of childbirth, humanity is not as big as it could be if women could pop out babies like nothing had ever happened. Because they did that, Cain killed his brother and brought death into our world... Death, which was not part of the human world before then. He gave us the gift of survival of the fittest, of the ability to kill for our own needs and the needs of our family.

Woman is cursed to submit to her husband... pfft. It may possibly be a misunderstood passage, but that most of all ticks me off for the fact that it brought forth so much oppression by the ignorant. You know, chimps oppress their woman and look where they are.

I am confused on many of these topics, so if someone could clear them up for me I would gladly read what you have to say.
True_Avery is offline   you may:
Old 10-24-2007, 06:36 PM   #115
Ray Jones
[armleglegarmhead]
 
Ray Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: digital
Posts: 8,255
10 year veteran! LF Jester Helpful! Forum Veteran 
Okay Jae, that all sounds good too me. Although I am still not convinced why an omnipotent god would not find a way to remove sin from existence without that he would take the choice for a relationship with him.


Ray Jones is offline   you may:
Old 10-24-2007, 10:38 PM   #116
Jae Onasi
Antiquis temporibus, nati tibi similes in rupibus ventosissimis exponebantur ad necem
 
Jae Onasi's Avatar
 
Status: Super Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 10,912
Current Game: Guild Wars 2, VtMB, TOR
Alderaan News Holopics contributor Helpful! LucasCast staff Veteran Fan Fic Author 
Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
Interesting.

I like your definition of Sin, but I can only see that really applying to human beings. Humans, as we assume we are the most intelligent being on this planet, also assume greatly that we are all important through being made, or through evolution, or survival. That God(s) truly looks down upon us, with the rest of the world created directly for us. So, I ask... Why humans?
I don't know 'why humans'. I know animals don't have the same capacity for sin because they don't truly know the difference between right/wrong--sure, some of them can be 'naughty' now and then, but so can 3 year olds, and we don't hold them accountable. The Bible implies animals end up in heaven, but otherwise it's not been addressed other than man's (generic humankind) authority over the animal world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
If you believe in both evolution and are spiritual, then consider the fact we are not all that evolved compared to most animals.
I think God at the very least guided evolution, so I don't consider that an issue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
Why love something so new, so selectively? Sharks have been nearly unchanged 100s of millions of years.
Simply because He made us that way.


Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
If the cockroach is the near pinnacle of evolution, couldn't you say that God(s) would be a cockroach?
I don't consider cockroaches to be the pinnacle of evolution. Far from it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
Don't we have a long way until we can claim to have the form and selective love from "our" God(s) when we are so incredibly new to a planet we show no respect for?
The Bible is designed to elaborate on God's relationship with humans. Since God declared His creation 'good', I'm assuming He cared about all of it, not just us, but we're the ones who have the capacity to have the relationship with Him rather than animals, hence the focus on us as humans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
Survival of the Fittest, afterall, is by no means a merciful part of nature. Human beings try this on eachother now and then, but it usually ends in failure. The Nazi's, the Spartans, Religious cleansing. We try, but we really have no idea what we are doing.
Well, I agree we do a fine job of royally screwing things up sometimes, but I'm not 100% sure where you're going with this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
If you believe that all other animals aren't mentally stunted by God, then you will can choose to see that many animals show incredible signs of intelligence and social patterns similar to humans.
They were made the way they were. I don't view them as 'mentally stunted'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
Bonobo Chimp:
They are almost as smart as us, plus they have a better social structure than we do. They are a female run society, they almost never fight or go to war with each other or other tribes, and they constantly engage in social sex with each other as a pastime, the majority of the time being homosexual. If any intelligent animal is more deserving of having a kind face upon them, it would probably be the Bonobo.
How did you come to the conclusion that this is 'better' than humanity (except war)? Maybe it's 'better' for that chimp, but unprotected promiscuity at least in humanity causes a number of health issues and unwanted pregnancies. What's good for a chimp may not be what's good for us humans and vice-versa.

Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
Although, if you believe, like many of the religious people I know of, that animals are below us than everything I just said went out the window. Oh well.
God created the entire universe, and none of it is unimportant. We may have authority over animals, but we're supposed to be their caretakers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
Christ, in religious lore, gave him life to save us all. I am rather confused on how murdering the son or embodiment of God saves any of us.
Actually, Christ chose to allow that to happen to Him. There has to be punishment for ultimate evil. We do the same here on earth--evil is not allowed to go unpunished (at least theoretically). Something pure had to be the sacrifice to serve as the substitution for the bad/evil we do during life. I suppose He could have chosen toenail clippings as a sacrifice, but that's not very much of a sacrifice, is it? Giving up one's life is the ultimate sacrifice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
Doesn't that just prove that we may be beyond the capability to "save"? He may have "died for us", but we still killed him.
He didn't have to die for us. He chose to do that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
Did he save us from the devil?
He saved us from our own individual sinfulness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
Did everybody before christ go directly to hell?
No. We look back to Christ for salvation, people prior to Christ looked forward to His salvation. Those who've never heard of Jesus can still see God in His very amazing universe, and acknowledging the Creator serves as their salvation, but that's a long discussion in itself.

Please explain more, as the more I think on it the more I feel like an ant with a magnifying glass aiming at me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
And whats with Hell? Where does God have the right to send some people to a gated community and throw others into eternal torment for some sins they did because God either made them born that way, or let them do some stupid stuff in the 70 or so years they existed. 70 years isn't even the blink of an eye to eternity and I failed to see how sending people to feel pain for all time solves ANYTHING. I do understand that many people, even the religious, do not believe in a hell. But if God is going to choose who is naughty and who is nice, then I am not sure I like this God. Sounds more like a demented Santa with a complex. If you can, please explain more of this.
Let me ask this--would you allow a sadistic serial killer to go unpunished? Most likely not, because there are consequences for evil behavior. Should God be disallowed from passing judgment on evil because He's God? We all sin, we all do bad, we all are imperfect. I think what God is asking is if we're going to acknowledge and have a relationship in love with Him, or if we're going to utterly reject a relationship with Him. If we reject Him completely, He's going to respect that, and He's going to remove His presence from those who don't want Him. Now imagine a place completely devoid of God's love and goodness, a place of utter evil and hatred. That's hell right there. However, it will be by that person's own choosing. They will have chosen to completely reject God, and they will experience the results of that decision. God won't be punishing them so much as He will be respecting their decision to live entirely without His presence, and removing Himself from that person.

Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
Lust is a interesting topic. We may disregard it completely, but how do we know that isn't a bad thing?
Obsessing about having an intimate relationship with someone who's already involved in another relationship, or who maybe doesn't want a relationship with the luster, is a problem. Thinking about doing a sin leads to actually doing that sin with some frequency. You have to think about doing a sin before you actually commit it, which is why we're told to maintain pure thoughts as well as actions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
The common chimpanzee, which regularly treats its females terrible and more than often "rapes" them, keeps females away from each other and has tight social groups and a tight rope on sexuality, constantly having wars with other chimps and fighting CONSTANTLY over who gets what... much like humans, actually. The Bonobo on the other hand, which has a much free'er social branch with the female leading the group instead, has recreational homosexual sex and relations... they are one of the most peaceful animals on this green earth. So, how bad can lust be when giving into it completely ends up with what the Bonobos have? All I can currently see is humans acting like the common chimp which is not a peaceful existence at all. We have ruled homosexuality as "unnatural" when it obviously is not, though many will disagree, and our men have a god complex and more often than not rule over the female of our species. We fight over money, food, and power and hide love and sex like it is a completely terrible thing. I think nature has some of the point I am trying to make backed up.
We are not chimps, so this doesn't apply, as I noted earlier. I have a friend who has been a male prostitute and was so promiscuous I could never keep up with who was visiting him what night. I'm very happy to hide his sexual proclivities from my kids right now--they're too young to be exposed to his 'appetites'. I appreciate honesty in sexual discussion but not abject raunchy obscene (grandma's dirty jokes notwithstanding), and there is a big difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
And that was a bad thing? You speak of robots, who simply say "We love you God." Before Adam and Eve discovered Sin and disobedience they were those robots. Living day by day, loving God and what God did for them. Then, one day, they took the Apple against Gods will. God became angry that he didn't have completely obedient servants anymore.
They had the choice to obey God or not--they weren't robots.

Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
If he became angry over those two and cursed all of humanity, what in the world makes you think for a second that he cares about you at all? It sounds more like a parent finding out their son is gay and throwing him out of the house for not being what they wanted him to be. He didn't even give them a second chance! If he said screw them, what makes you think that we simply are not all going straight to hell? Or, is that why Christ died for us? Did it really take him 8 thousand years to stop sending souls straight to hell?
God is loving. God is also just. Sin can't go on without consequences, just like we can't allow a serial killer to go on killing unchecked. He acknowledges that humans are going to do stupid hurtful things. He also provided a way out for everyone of us. As I noted before, salvation hasn't been limited to just those who came after Christ.
Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
Many may point at Adam and Eve and blame our problems on them, but if Adam and Eve were in front of me right now I would be one of the few to hug them and thank them endlessly for taking that apple. Because they took the apple, they became free from Gods servitude. Because Eve was cursed with pains of childbirth, humanity is not as big as it could be if women could pop out babies like nothing had ever happened. Because they did that, Cain killed his brother and brought death into our world... Death, which was not part of the human world before then. He gave us the gift of survival of the fittest, of the ability to kill for our own needs and the needs of our family.
Well, having gone through childbirth, I can tell you I'm so not thankful for labor pains. Labor sucks. Given that we had perfection prior to sin's entry into the world, we lost out, not gained. We went from perfection to imperfection. You don't need 'survival of the fittest' when you already have perfection. However, what's done is done. We live in a world where sin is reality and all we can do is deal with the now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
Woman is cursed to submit to her husband... pfft. It may possibly be a misunderstood passage, but that most of all ticks me off for the fact that it brought forth so much oppression by the ignorant. You know, chimps oppress their woman and look where they are.
Living in trees and eating bananas and ants?
Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
I am confused on many of these topics, so if someone could clear them up for me I would gladly read what you have to say.
I don't know that I can clear it up for you. C. S. Lewis is far more articulate on the subject--Mere Christianity and The Problem of Pain are great at explaining some of these issues.


@Ray--I wasn't 100% sure what you were meaning with your post--thought about 3 different interpretations of it, so if you could clarify for me, that'd be cool.


From MST3K's spoof of "Hercules Unchained"--heard as Roman medic soldiers carry off an unconscious Greek Hercules on a 1950's Army green canvas stretcher: "Hi, we're IX-I-I. Did somebody dial IX-I-I?"

Read The Adventures of Jolee Bindo and see the amazing Peep Surgery
Story WIP: The Dragonfighters
My blog: Confessions of a Geeky Mom--Latest post: Security Alerts!
Love Star Trek AND gaming? Check out Lotus Fleet.

Jae Onasi is offline   you may:
Old 10-24-2007, 11:24 PM   #117
True_Avery
Banned
 
Status: Banned
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 2,002
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
I don't know 'why humans'. I know animals don't have the same capacity for sin because they don't truly know the difference between right/wrong--sure, some of them can be 'naughty' now and then, but so can 3 year olds, and we don't hold them accountable. The Bible implies animals end up in heaven, but otherwise it's not been addressed other than man's (generic humankind) authority over the animal world.
Simply because He made us that way.
Hmm, interesting.

But why is a human's capability to think any more advanced than another animals? What makes us special? There are other animals capable of many of the things our minds are capable of. It sounds selfish to say that we are gods children when you in fact have never met god, do not know gods true motives, and get this information from a very old book. I am not trying to be a b**** here, but just stating the obvious.

Saying that humans are the guardians of the world is basically saying that we rule over it, which is the words of ignorant humans thousands of years ago that assumed that they were on a flat planet in the center of the universe. Evolution works on survival, and I think a bug that can live for weeks without a head is a little more ahead than us.

Our intelligent minds help us survive, but it is killing everything around us.

Quote:
I don't consider cockroaches to be the pinnacle of evolution. Far from it.
The Bible is designed to elaborate on God's relationship with humans. Since God declared His creation 'good', I'm assuming He cared about all of it, not just us, but we're the ones who have the capacity to have the relationship with Him rather than animals, hence the focus on us as humans.
Hmmm

Animals are capable of feeling compassion and love though. Humans just absorb more information.

I'd think that something that has survived for hundreds of millions of years longer than us has the right to say that is it more evolved than us. Intelligent mind is not the highest point in evolution. It is something that is being tried, and in a few million years may be proven to be ineffective and thrown out of the gene pool.


Quote:
How did you come to the conclusion that this is 'better' than humanity (except war)? Maybe it's 'better' for that chimp, but unprotected promiscuity at least in humanity causes a number of health issues and unwanted pregnancies. What's good for a chimp may not be what's good for us humans and vice-versa.
http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=183210

Quote:
God created the entire universe, and none of it is unimportant. We may have authority over animals, but we're supposed to be their caretakers.
We are doing a terrible job so far. Absolutely apalling job. I can see God forgiving us for a lot, but we are ALL murderers and we all destroy this planet willingly and fully aware of what we are doing. I think that is deserving of a nice stay in hell if anything.

Quote:
Actually, Christ chose to allow that to happen to Him. There has to be punishment for ultimate evil. We do the same here on earth--evil is not allowed to go unpunished (at least theoretically). Something pure had to be the sacrifice to serve as the substitution for the bad/evil we do during life. I suppose He could have chosen toenail clippings as a sacrifice, but that's not very much of a sacrifice, is it? Giving up one's life is the ultimate sacrifice.
But why him? Couldn't any old person do that? God came down, died, then went back up. Acomplishing nothing but a new religion into place that would cause further drama and death along the road. He brought morals that were already common sense to the human race, and even after that people still sinned.

Quote:
He didn't have to die for us. He chose to do that.
I'm still not clear on why.

Quote:
He saved us from our own individual sinfulness.
What do you mean by saved?

Quote:
No. We look back to Christ for salvation, people prior to Christ looked forward to His salvation. Those who've never heard of Jesus can still see God in His very amazing universe, and acknowledging the Creator serves as their salvation, but that's a long discussion in itself.
"Never heard od Jesus" sounds like a punch to nearly all other religions to me. It seems selfish to say that your belief system is the only true one in the universe, when it is quoite possible our feeble human minds cannot comphrehend what a god would actually think, if a god can even think as thinking is an animal behavior, electronic signals in the brains that travel from place to place.

Quote:
Let me ask this--would you allow a sadistic serial killer to go unpunished? Most likely not, because there are consequences for evil behavior. Should God be disallowed from passing judgment on evil because He's God? We all sin, we all do bad, we all are imperfect. I think what God is asking is if we're going to acknowledge and have a relationship in love with Him, or if we're going to utterly reject a relationship with Him. If we reject Him completely, He's going to respect that, and He's going to remove His presence from those who don't want Him. Now imagine a place completely devoid of God's love and goodness, a place of utter evil and hatred. That's hell right there. However, it will be by that person's own choosing. They will have chosen to completely reject God, and they will experience the results of that decision. God won't be punishing them so much as He will be respecting their decision to live entirely without His presence, and removing Himself from that person.
As far as I am concerned, we live in both heaven and hell at this very moment. I am still not quite sure what you mean by hell. A place devoit of God? You know, if my son or daughter were to say they didn't want to be around me anymore I probably wouldn't say "screw it, go ahead and do what you want to" and then punish them for eternity when they come back later after doing something stupid. That is playing my children like a game, not as a parent.

Eternal damnation doesn't sound like "He will be respecting their decision." It sounds more like a cop out in saying that people who do "bad" thing will eventually be punished. A scare tactic for people to do "good", and even if hell existed that simply proves that god does not love all. I can respect someones wishes by shooting them in the head if they don't like being around me but that doesn't make for good equality.

I could start an arguement about good and evil relativity, but it seems a moot point right now.

Quote:
Obsessing about having an intimate relationship with someone who's already involved in another relationship, or who maybe doesn't want a relationship with the luster, is a problem. Thinking about doing a sin leads to actually doing that sin with some frequency. You have to think about doing a sin before you actually commit it, which is why we're told to maintain pure thoughts as well as actions.
Fair enough.

Quote:
We are not chimps, so this doesn't apply, as I noted earlier. I have a friend who has been a male prostitute and was so promiscuous I could never keep up with who was visiting him what night. I'm very happy to hide his sexual proclivities from my kids right now--they're too young to be exposed to his 'appetites'. I appreciate honesty in sexual discussion but not abject raunchy obscene (grandma's dirty jokes notwithstanding), and there is a big difference.
http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=183210
And technically, we are simply hairless chimps. But thats an evolutionary debate topic.

Quote:
They had the choice to obey God or not--they weren't robots.
He created them, told them what to do, and then watched over them. When they disobeyed him, he cursed all of humanity. Sounds like an "evil" monarchy to me.

Quote:
God is loving. God is also just. Sin can't go on without consequences, just like we can't allow a serial killer to go on killing unchecked. He acknowledges that humans are going to do stupid hurtful things. He also provided a way out for everyone of us. As I noted before, salvation hasn't been limited to just those who came after Christ.
I'm still confused on the Christ part. If he was giving salvation this entire time, why come down in the first place to simply die and go back up?

Quote:
Well, having gone through childbirth, I can tell you I'm so not thankful for labor pains. Labor sucks. Given that we had perfection prior to sin's entry into the world, we lost out, not gained. We went from perfection to imperfection. You don't need 'survival of the fittest' when you already have perfection. However, what's done is done. We live in a world where sin is reality and all we can do is deal with the now.
Perfection is a relative term. What is perfection to one is imperfect to another. In my opinion, Adam and Eve were imperfect before eating the apple. Then they became humans, they became animals, and they became part of nature. You wouldn't exist if they hadn't of eaten the apple. I think nature, as of now, is in its own way perfect. All the math, all the physics, all the evolution and selection. It is a system of near perfection that strives for perfection, and creating someone who already had everything, I think, would be cheating the system god set up in the first place. Why set up all those rules if he could just make perfection and be done with it. Is this some kind of game to him? It sure sounds like something I'd do in The Sims.

Quote:
Living in trees and eating bananas and ants?
Civil war, death, destruction, slavery, rape, murder, etc . They are more like humans than you assume. We arn't alone in this world of intelligence, and saying we are is slapping gods work in the face. By saying that you alone are important, you disregard all of what God has done to put -yourself- in the spotlight, screaming "I want you to love me more!". The little kid who wants mommy and daddy to pay attention to it while the little kid's better siblings run around doing what must be done to continue the circle of life.

I'm sorry, but thats all I can see out of that.

Quote:
I don't know that I can clear it up for you. C. S. Lewis is far more articulate on the subject--Mere Christianity and The Problem of Pain are great at explaining some of these issues
I'll look them up.

Edit: Some of my comments may have come off as hateful. Know that I am merely throwing topics out for debate and not to anger anyone.

Last edited by True_Avery; 10-24-2007 at 11:36 PM.
True_Avery is offline   you may:
Old 10-25-2007, 08:53 AM   #118
Ray Jones
[armleglegarmhead]
 
Ray Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: digital
Posts: 8,255
10 year veteran! LF Jester Helpful! Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
@Ray--I wasn't 100% sure what you were meaning with your post--thought about 3 different interpretations of it, so if you could clarify for me, that'd be cool.
Yeah, right, as if I would, at least today, be able to abstract my posts in a way so they do not gush out into the ocean of thousand meanings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray
Although I am still not convinced why an omnipotent god would not find a way to remove sin from existence without that he would take the choice for a relationship with him.
If I got it right, then you (and also others) said that god could remove sin from existence, but would not do it because he wants us humans to (more or less) actively choose between him and sin, and without sin there would be nothing to choose between anymore. (Regardless of when and how, or whatever this means to free will or not.)

I say, if god is really omnipotent, and omni-this, and omni-that, the must be able to find a way to have both: to remove sin from the universe and keep the choice for having a relationship with him or not, even more, he must already know of a method to achieve this. It is also totally irrelevant if this does sound illogical and makes no sense at all to the common human being because "how can someone choose between two things if one is nonexistent".


Ray Jones is offline   you may:
Old 10-25-2007, 09:37 AM   #119
Jae Onasi
Antiquis temporibus, nati tibi similes in rupibus ventosissimis exponebantur ad necem
 
Jae Onasi's Avatar
 
Status: Super Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 10,912
Current Game: Guild Wars 2, VtMB, TOR
Alderaan News Holopics contributor Helpful! LucasCast staff Veteran Fan Fic Author 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Jones
Yeah, right, as if I would, at least today, be able to abstract my posts in a way so they do not gush out into the ocean of thousand meanings.


How do you keep the choice to reject God when taking away sin? That's what sin really boils down to--that rejection. The types of sin are outworkings of that rejection.


From MST3K's spoof of "Hercules Unchained"--heard as Roman medic soldiers carry off an unconscious Greek Hercules on a 1950's Army green canvas stretcher: "Hi, we're IX-I-I. Did somebody dial IX-I-I?"

Read The Adventures of Jolee Bindo and see the amazing Peep Surgery
Story WIP: The Dragonfighters
My blog: Confessions of a Geeky Mom--Latest post: Security Alerts!
Love Star Trek AND gaming? Check out Lotus Fleet.

Jae Onasi is offline   you may:
Old 10-25-2007, 09:56 AM   #120
Ray Jones
[armleglegarmhead]
 
Ray Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: digital
Posts: 8,255
10 year veteran! LF Jester Helpful! Forum Veteran 
By striking sin out of the universe, how can "rejection" of god be sin? How can something be something that does not exist?


Ray Jones is offline   you may:
Post a new thread. Sorry, this thread is closed. Indicate all threads in this forum as read. Subscribe to this forum. RSS feed: this forum RSS feed: all forums
Go Back   LucasForums > Network > Knights of the Old Republic > Community > Kavar's Corner > God, man, and the nature of sin

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:24 PM.

LFNetwork, LLC ©2002-2011 - All rights reserved.
Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.