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Old 10-23-2007, 12:17 PM   #1
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How far is too far when it come to school safety?

Zero-Tolerance on guns includes childs artwork?
Is a drawing of a stick figure person shooting another stick figure person enough to get a seven-year-old suspended from school? Should it be? What if it is labeled? Have we as a society gone too far or is this what is necessary to keep our children safe?

If they had this rule when I was in elementary school I may have never been in class.
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Old 10-23-2007, 12:53 PM   #2
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I believe in a "Trial By Fire" upbringing, I think Kids should learn from there own mistakes, and not be shielded from real life, But, there IS way too much violence and crime available too them, and the media doesn't help by glorifying such things. Elementary school is somewhere that should try to maintain a certain amount of innocence for kids, so yes, I think it is right to discourage "young" children from drawing or reinacting violent acts.


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Old 10-23-2007, 02:46 PM   #3
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Zero tolerance policies were always a bad idea. They were created by people who wanted to replace human interaction with bureaucracy and paperwork. All instances of guns, be them fake, drawn, or real, should be taken on an individual basis. Students should not be flatly treated like criminals in the making.


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Old 10-23-2007, 03:56 PM   #4
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Wow. I've seen some pretty crazy crap in my time. That may trump my old school's policy of 'contact with a closed fist = suspension.' Maybe. I'm not sure.
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Old 10-23-2007, 05:42 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Web Rider
Zero tolerance policies were always a bad idea.
I have zero tolerance for zero tolerance too.


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Old 10-23-2007, 07:01 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Web Rider
Zero tolerance policies were always a bad idea. They were created by people who wanted to replace human interaction with bureaucracy and paperwork. All instances of guns, be them fake, drawn, or real, should be taken on an individual basis. Students should not be flatly treated like criminals in the making.
QFE

I think this undermines public perception of the second amendment by villifying firearms from a very early age.

I personally have never seen or heard of anything this extreme in my area. My friends and I shopped for hunting rifles in the library one time, and there are still up-to-date issues of hunting magazines, complete with articles on firearms, available for students in the library, and there have been in every Eastern Kentucky high school library I've ever visited. Granted, a friend of mine who carries around issues of magazines featuring military and law enforcement weapons, complete with pictures of (very nice) AR15's on the cover, he gets some strange looks.





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Old 10-23-2007, 07:53 PM   #7
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Sadly, this isn't the first time I've heard of something in the school system that's so addle brained. I've heard of other stories of kids getting in trouble for artwork or being disciplined for playing war/cowboys & injuns/cops & robbers during recess. The current crop of policy makers are a bunch of ninnies.

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Originally Posted by tk102
I have zero tolerance for zero tolerance too.
Amen.


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Old 10-23-2007, 09:14 PM   #8
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Yes sadly in my area this kind of thing is far too common. I went back to visit my old elementary school recently and discovered that cops and robbers was banned as well as dodgeball, touch football and a buch of other harmless things.I never liked that school anyway.
As for that drawing people killing things my high school now has that rule but its so loosely enforced cause even the teachers think its stupid. But really though should we remove pictures from history textbooks because they "glorify" people with guns and skip all wars in history class for the same reason?

Bottom line: The Constitution of the U.S. give us the right to bear arms, so why should we not have the right to draw them? Just cause a kid draws weapons does not mean s/he will grow up to be a murderer.

Zero tolerance for zero tolerance...heh me too

Heres a little somthin for all those morons making those laws. Look Im in high school and look what animations I chose: Oooh Im such a bad person!



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Old 10-23-2007, 09:54 PM   #9
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There was a time when a child would be beaten, set against other children, taught to kill and hunt, and set out into the wild for week, months, years at a time to prove themselves. They grew up to do the same, only the fittest and 'best' surviving to pass on their genes to the next generation. They would be taught what was necessary to live in their society, and those who survived were all seen as equals... even women and slaves to a degree, for they also had their own trials of life and death.

Ya know... I sometimes wonder if the Spartans would have died to literally save democracy in Greece, all the way to this very day if they had known we humans would have turned out to be the pathetic excuse for people and parents we are today.

I'm sure coddling your children like Barbie dolls, hiding them from the "bad" so they don't become "bad" people will make them grow up to be "perfect" little angels. The plain -fact-, and yes I will say -fact- again, is that the world is not "nice" and eventually it catches up to everybody. You hide people from responsibility by ignoring your own responsibility as a society to your youth simply breeds people into thinking that the world is there to serve them. You serve your world, your society, and your people.

Porn, Guns, Violence, Video Games, Sex, Death... You can only hide a person from these things for so long. Some parents may disagree, but they are under the odd delusions that their 16 year old boy/girl is too perfect to have ever browsed around for porn in his/her entire life. Yeah, I'm sure the 18+ button on the sites is really going to stop him/her in the least. I'm sure, with current day media, that taking drawings of guns away from kids is going to make them forget what guns are as we fight a war across the ocean. Many kids may not like it, may not agree with it, but that doesn't top the fact that it is all everywhere.

But those teachings seemed to have died a long... long time ago. Well, at least in most first world societies

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Want to protect your youth? Make society and humanity better. In the mean time, hiding them from what society and humanity is currently just doesn't seem right. It is breeding people in a world of lies and delusions of "innocence".
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Old 10-23-2007, 10:12 PM   #10
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You get that little tidbit of history from 300? Bah! Sparta wasn't a democracy. In case you didn't notice, Leonidas was a King. The Spartans were a monarchical state, not a democratic one.

And, uh, what's with the Hitler quotes? He's not exactly a great example to point out American decay, considering how morally decrepit he was.
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Old 10-23-2007, 10:17 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinthian
You get that little tidbit of history from 300? Bah! Sparta wasn't a democracy. In case you didn't notice, Leonidas was a King. The Spartans were a monarchical state, not a democratic one.
No, I got it from history channel specials on Spartans to disprove many things that the movie had put in place. Bush is our president and he has a council of elders that helps him decide what to do. Honestly, it doesn't sound all that different. We just have a freedom label on it.

Leonidas didn't make all decisions, he didn't have complete power. He had to take advise from his councils, from his people, and from the Gods before he decided to do anything. Persia was the true monarchy in that time.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinthian
And, uh, what's with the Hitler quotes? He's not exactly a great example to point out American decay, considering how morally decrepit he was.
Maybe. He may have been morally "wrong" in some people's eyes but he took over Germany and started the largest war in history and nearly won. You don't get to that point without knowing a great deal about how society and people work. Just because someone is morally "wrong" does not make them stupid, it just makes them morally "wrong."
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Old 10-23-2007, 10:30 PM   #12
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You want to can the quotes around 'wrong'? I don't think anyone is going to get offended if you say that slaughtering six million Jews and millions of others is morally 'wrong'.

No King has ever had real, true absolute power. But would you consider England to have become a Democratic government following the Magna Carta? The correct answer is No, England was NOT a Democracy after John of England signed it. Leonidas didn't give his life for Democracy, and the Spartans weren't great believers in freedom. They had a massive number of slaves.
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Old 10-23-2007, 10:30 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by tk102
I have zero tolerance for zero tolerance too.
I quite realize the irony of applying an absolute statement when saying aboslutes are bad.

In any case, I've yet to see a positive outcome come out of "zero tolerance". Far as I know, the number of events averted ranks low to nill.


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Old 10-23-2007, 10:33 PM   #14
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Hey, since the removal of dynamite gags from cartoons, haven't you noticed your children have stopped playing with explosives?
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Old 10-23-2007, 10:34 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Corinthian
Hey, since the removal of dynamite gags from cartoons, haven't you noticed your children have stopped playing with explosives?
So that's why all my TnT hasn't been messed with in the past few years.

I dunno, kids who play with dynamite seem to learn real fast.

better question: how many people have random sticks of dynamite lying around?


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Old 10-23-2007, 10:37 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinthian
You want to can the quotes around 'wrong'? I don't think anyone is going to get offended if you say that slaughtering six million Jews and millions of others is morally 'wrong'.
I don't believe in actual right and wrong. Killing six million jews was short sighted, ignorant, and probably thinking too small. Mostly an idiotic attempt at survival of the fittest. It was morally wrong to some, but morally right to others. But this probably is not the place to debate that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinthian
No King has ever had real, true absolute power. But would you consider England to have become a Democratic government following the Magna Carta? The correct answer is No, England was NOT a Democracy after John of England signed it. Leonidas didn't give his life for Democracy, and the Spartans weren't great believers in freedom. They had a massive number of slaves.
The slaves and women, however, were treated as citizens because they all did what they could for the nation as a whole. I could bring up the things I heard in the documentary made by people smarter than both of us combined, but, again, this is probably not the place to debate this topic.
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Old 10-23-2007, 10:45 PM   #17
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~snipped~

Bah. The History channel is notoriously inaccurate. Take their moronic ones on Medieval Warfare. Ever see them talk about the combat? The weight of the swords? They're idiots. Twenty pound swords? I know more about medieval combat than these idiots.

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Old 10-23-2007, 10:48 PM   #18
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snipped response to flame

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinthian
Bah. The History channel is notoriously inaccurate. Take their moronic ones on Medieval Warfare. Ever see them talk about the combat? The weight of the swords? They're idiots. Twenty pound swords? I know more about medieval combat than these idiots.
I'm not even going to bother explaining to you how incorrect that statement was.

I'm done debating with you. Moving on...

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Old 10-24-2007, 03:12 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tk102
I have zero tolerance for zero tolerance too.
QFE

Spartans and Gun Control with Schools... a weird combination of topic.
On the side note, we all grow up with cartoons about rabbits running around with TnTs and bombs and guns... and we don't become terrorists either (ignoring the few weridos)

We play war with lasertags and water pistols, and how many of us have been in a real firefight? (occupational hazard not withstanding)

People should just wake up and get a life.
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Old 10-24-2007, 09:20 PM   #20
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Sparta is not a democracy. To say so would be stupid. I'd rather that it would be called aristocracy, as the Greeks called themselves. The best form of government, after all. Avoids the tryannical elements of a king while at the same time, avoid the rule by the ignorant mob. Yeah, Sparta is run by a King, but there were elders as well, and I think they had much power as well, making it an aristocracy.

Oh, what? Topic? Oh yeah!

I actually am in support of this policy. A young kid drawing a violent picture is...well...scary. Writing or drawing anything violent is an indictation that something is wrong with that kid, when combined with other signs, of course. So, I can sympathize with why they did what they did. I may not like it, but it's not the "terrible" thing. The only thing that I am worried about is the censorship of art, but if we can just have an age limit for when it is okay to act out your violent fanasties on paper without fear of suddenly acting on those fanasties in real life, then so be it.

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Old 10-24-2007, 10:00 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Sparta is not a democracy. To say so would be stupid. I'd rather that it would be called aristocracy, as the Greeks called themselves. The best form of government, after all. Avoids the tryannical elements of a king while at the same time, avoid the rule by the ignorant mob. Yeah, Sparta is run by a King, but there were elders as well, and I think they had much power as well, making it an aristocracy.
Fair enough. I'll go buy the documentary at the store and re-learn what I've forgotten and maybe come back with a thread later.

Sorry for my comment that accidentally took this thread off topic. I will not mention this again in here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
I actually am in support of this policy. A young kid drawing a violent picture is...well...scary. Writing or drawing anything violent is an indictation that something is wrong with that kid, when combined with other signs, of course. So, I can sympathize with why they did what they did. I may not like it, but it's not the "terrible" thing. The only thing that I am worried about is the censorship of art, but if we can just have an age limit for when it is okay to act out your violent fanasties on paper without fear of suddenly acting on those fanasties in real life, then so be it.
True, but wouldn't supressing those feelings in a child, supressing that need to act out come back to possibly hurt themselves and others? Violence is indeed not a funny thing for a child to be obsessed with, but outright hiding them from it does not seem to be an answer.

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Old 10-24-2007, 11:03 PM   #22
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Basically, here's True_Avery's post in a nutshell: "Oops, I'm wrong, but to save face, I'm going to act like I was right all along."

Don't worry about me being on your ignore list, Avery. I have yet to see you make a post of any real value.
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Old 10-24-2007, 11:31 PM   #23
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Old 10-24-2007, 11:32 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinthian
Basically, here's True_Avery's post in a nutshell: "Oops, I'm wrong, but to save face, I'm going to act like I was right all along."

Don't worry about me being on your ignore list, Avery. I have yet to see you make a post of any real value.
That's far enough, Corinthian. You've earned a warning for flaming.

Everyone needs to settle down. It's a thread with some posts in it. In a global society we are absolutely going to have lots of differing opinions and that's OK. Any further flaming by anyone and the thread will get closed.


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Old 10-25-2007, 12:06 AM   #25
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As a seven-year-old, I had a fascination with guns. While I have no problem with the concept of zero-tolerance of weapons in our schools I believe taking the rule this far removes an important element from the education system “common sense.”

I did find the fact that he labeled the picture a bit disturbing, but not being a Psychologist and not seeing the picture in question does not allow me to make an informed decision. He said it is a water gun, most 7 year-olds I know are not the greatest liars, but again without seeing him I cannot pass any judgment. Perhaps having a professional talk to him would be of more help than suspending him.

I drew soldiers shooting each other as a child; I drew sharks ripping people apart. I was honest in my original post, I would have never been allowed in school if they had the rule when I was that age. I wouldn’t say I was then or am now a violent person, I’d just say I had an active imagination and liked to draw. I also liked westerns, war movies and Jaws, so I drew what I saw.

How are we supposed to teach our children the importance of common sense when the adults in their life refuse to show any?
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Old 10-25-2007, 12:16 AM   #26
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How are we supposed to teach our children the importance of common sense when the adults in their life refuse to show any?
QFE

I did the same thing when I was younger. I drew dinosaurs a lot because I loved them and a lot of other silly stuff back then. I drew people with swords and shield, stick people with block guns, sharks eating people, dinosaur scenes with a half eaten Dino, etc. I think I grew up fine, but that in of itself is a debatable topic.

More often than not, the people I've seen that were sheilded from all of this all their lives grow up with a unique ignorance of the world around them.
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Old 10-25-2007, 06:50 AM   #27
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I think we should teach our children that violence is wrong, not that it's non-existent. Children play all kind of stuff related to things that hurt people, like accidents, hunt, cowboys and native Americans, whatever. It's their way to cope with what they see and hear in real life, and we cannot forbid that, because we've learned on our long way to what we are today. However, if we want our children to have to deal with less violence, it might be a good idea to change something on what they see every day.


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Old 10-25-2007, 01:32 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Jones
I think we should teach our children that violence is wrong, not that it's non-existent.
Very true. If we stick our heads in the sand about it, they'll have no knowledge on how to deal with violence.


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Old 10-26-2007, 12:00 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
Very true. If we stick our heads in the sand about it, they'll have no knowledge on how to deal with violence.
I support this message.

Ignorance is not bliss, especially if your kid gets "awakened from his dogmatic slumber" by a mugger, or some classmates, for that matter.





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Old 10-26-2007, 12:38 AM   #30
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An oppressive and extreme response of people who are threatened by honest communication. When you teach people that communication is not a way to solve problems they have with others, that only leaves violence in their repetoire when they get older. Punishing people for writing or drawing, unless it is inciting people to violence creates a very real danger of having the opposite than intended effect in the long term.

That is why zero tolerance is a dumb idea in addition to being an unconstitutional limitation on freedom of expression.
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Old 10-26-2007, 01:55 AM   #31
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Wow. I'm glad that's all behind me and I was allowed to draw whatever the hell I wanted.

I grew up in the middle of the DragonBall craze and we were mimicking the characters on the playground. Granted, the comics were banned due to the violence it contained and today, I somewhat agree with the measure. Teachers used to warn us against "playing Dragonball" but nobody gave a damn and they eventually stopped caring.

Besides, me and a bunch of guys did check out porn on the class computer once. Never got caught.

Ah growing up in the ghetto...the kind of people you spend time with

I also would like to note that this post is written from a federal prison where I spend some time for being a mass murderer...yeah...not really.


I guess the "sissying" up of men shows itself quite clearly even on the teenagers these days. With my habit of playing soccer with strangers, I've encountered my share of teens who couldn't take a little push and whined for fouls after I slightly touched them. Yeah...kinda sad really.


http://www.marioramos.ca/ -A friend of mine and an aspiring filmmaker.
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