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Old 10-30-2007, 11:03 PM   #41
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Yeah, because their first partnership, which birthed the original KotoR was a catastrophe...Root for Obsidian as they brutally tear apart future installments in series. TSL and NWN2 are both massive disappointments compared to their fathers. And you can say that it's because they were rushed out the door, but the fact is, Avellone is too ambitious and has twice so far bitten off more than he can choke down. Bioware is far more experienced.
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Old 10-30-2007, 11:08 PM   #42
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I think "massive disappointments" is a bit too harsh for both games...


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Old 10-30-2007, 11:11 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinthian
TSL and NWN2 are both massive disappointments compared to their fathers. And you can say that it's because they were rushed out the door, but the fact is, Avellone is too ambitious and has twice so far bitten off more than he can choke down. Bioware is far more experienced.
You've touched on the critical point. It's not like Obsidian is a bad developer team, quite the contrary, they've got a lot of potential. It's just all about the way Chris Avellone runs the group. And the simplest way to demonstrate that is by looking on his achievements (the companies letdowns games).


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Old 10-30-2007, 11:13 PM   #44
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I personally think that they need to make a KOTOR 3 sometime down the line just to finish the story up. Its not fair to all the people out there who have played KOTOR 1/2 on the console or on a PC thats not capable of playing games online very well to have to play an MMO just to finish the story. If Lucasarts does make an MMO it needs to be a seperate game and they need to make KOTOR 3 for everybody so that noone is left out. KOTOR was never meant to be an online game.
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Old 10-30-2007, 11:17 PM   #45
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As others have said I would like a KOTOR III by Obsidian but if it comes out that this KIII just by Bioware I'd be like meh it's ok( you know still freaken YAHHOO! but I'm rooting for Feargus and Chris). If it turns out that this is K3 but an mmo I'll be like cool I'll try it, even if it says KOTOR they could put it in the War with Exar Kun or something further in the past or in the distant future so it doesn't touch KOTOR and TSL's story. I remember downloading Galaxies for a 10 or 14 day trial, I played it the first two days and was like this is cool and then the last eight or twelve days I didn't touch it, I was a wookie jedi that was pretty sAweet. This could even be an Idiana Jones thing or heck ya maybe EVEN a MONKEY ISLAND thing, now that would be rad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinthian
Yeah, because their first partnership, which birthed the original KotoR was a catastrophe...Root for Obsidian as they brutally tear apart future installments in series. TSL and NWN2 are both massive disappointments compared to their fathers. And you can say that it's because they were rushed out the door, but the fact is, Avellone is too ambitious and has twice so far bitten off more than he can choke down. Bioware is far more experienced.

TSL story was deeper, Obsidian doesn't baby feed people the story, you have to read between the lines and get to the heart of the matter; not for the whole game but parts and I like their style Avellone is a good writer and I believe that I read in an article from the web( somebody correct me if I'm wrong) but Chris didn't work that much on the NWN2 storyline some other guy was at the head of it, Avellone, I'm sure participated but he wasn't in the drivers seat, I think. I enjoyed NWN2 storyline it was ambitious and worked out well(I only had a problem with the graphics, I had everything on low and it was choppy, my sky was a bunch of lines or orange eesh, now I've upgraded my card from a 128 to a 512 so it works amazingly).

From what I get about the NWN2 expansion reviews, the story is kick ars, one review said they're back to their planescape Torment ways. I've never played that game but people say it's great. It seems to me maybe they just had a few bumps but their finding the wind in their sails so to speak.



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Old 10-31-2007, 12:09 AM   #46
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i'm so excited bout this, the only reason i hope it's not mmorg is taht i ain't got the money nor the connection for it, if it is then i doubt that will end chances of a kotor3, there is to much of a broad timeline to use up. though it would probably delay the release of the next chapter in the series. will it ruin kotor? i doubt it has star wars galaxies stopped anyone play any of the other star wars game available?

i do hope we hear more bout it soon
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Old 10-31-2007, 12:35 AM   #47
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TSL might have had a GREAT plot, if it were finished. As it was, you could tell it was rushed out the door by how quickly and poorly the game wrapped up. The fates of the characters were dealt with in a massive infodump by the major villain! I'm sure that, had they finished the game within the deadline LucasArts gave them, it would have been great, but Avellone couldn't pull through. LucasArts wouldn't wait for Obsidian to finish on TSL, it's unlikely they would for III. Bioware's games are consistently solid, they wrap up the plotlines, and I've never seen a Bioware game have so many flaws that a mod needs to practically rebuild the game.
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Old 10-31-2007, 12:41 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zaykodroid
“BioWare’s mission is to deliver the best story and character-driven games in the world, delivering powerful emotional experiences to our fans.” [/B]
Yep, that sounds like KotOR alright. I, too hope that this won't be an MMO.

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Now, how about a new Monkey Island with a realistic dueling system where you can yell out your own insults?
No offence, but I really wouldn't want to see that made by Bioware.


Now, let us all hope for God's sake that LucasArts does not terrorize Bioware into a Christmas 2008 release.


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Old 10-31-2007, 01:41 AM   #49
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So I guess whatever it is will be announced officially after Mass Effect comes out?





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Old 10-31-2007, 01:53 AM   #50
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Char Ell's 1up interview is dating from November 2006, it mentions the Bioware MMO being announced in March of the same year, with development which started in December 2005. Leemu Taos' screenshot dates of March 2007. It mentions how Bioware, at that moment, was not making KotOR 3.

Why the hell do people panic then? How is this an indication of Bioware's MMORPG being some follow-up of TSL?

Bioware's MMORPG has been in development for many years now, if it is indeed a KotOR game, it won't be the end of the trilogy, simply an MMO set in the global KotOR universe. Hey, it could be about the Mandalorian Wars.

Then, this press release could indicate an entirely new partnership. On one side, it could really indicate that KotOR 3 is going to be made. On the other, it could be anything.

Finally, if this is indeed an entirely new partnership, it's truly good news. It means Bioware is able to do it's own things, not what EA necessarily wants.


I'll add another thing before I end this post. The interview mentions how in Bioware MMO, the character doesn't save the universe, using Sauron and a hypothetical LOTR game as an exemple. The player cannot defeat Sauron, but does have its own personal story that's exciting. This MMORPG obviously cannot be the end to the KotOR story.


I'll take a wait and see approach instead of random panicking. Worst case scenario, it's an MMORPG that concludes the KotOR trilogy (IMO, impossible to make). Best case, it's KotOR 3 as an SPRPG. Middle ground, a KotOR MMO not having anything to do with KotOR 3.

Going crazy over a really vague press release is quite stupid.


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Old 10-31-2007, 02:11 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Char Ell's 1up interview is dating from November 2006, it mentions the Bioware MMO being announced in March of the same year, with development which started in December 2005. Leemu Taos' screenshot dates of March 2007. It mentions how Bioware, at that moment, was not making KotOR 3.

Why the hell do people panic then? How is this an indication of Bioware's MMORPG being some follow-up of TSL?

Bioware's MMORPG has been in development for many years now, if it is indeed a KotOR game, it won't be the end of the trilogy, simply an MMO set in the global KotOR universe. Hey, it could be about the Mandalorian Wars.

Then, this press release could indicate an entirely new partnership. On one side, it could really indicate that KotOR 3 is going to be made. On the other, it could be anything.

Finally, if this is indeed an entirely new partnership, it's truly good news. It means Bioware is able to do it's own things, not what EA necessarily wants.


I'll add another thing before I end this post. The interview mentions how in Bioware MMO, the character doesn't save the universe, using Sauron and a hypothetical LOTR game as an exemple. The player cannot defeat Sauron, but does have its own personal story that's exciting. This MMORPG obviously cannot be the end to the KotOR story.


I'll take a wait and see approach instead of random panicking. Worst case scenario, it's an MMORPG that concludes the KotOR trilogy (IMO, impossible to make). Best case, it's KotOR 3 as an SPRPG. Middle ground, a KotOR MMO not having anything to do with KotOR 3.

Going crazy over a really vague press release is quite stupid.
A Canadian peace-keeper.......who knew :P For the record, I agree whole heartedly with your post.


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Old 10-31-2007, 02:27 AM   #52
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One thing that is funny to me now is when people say they won't pay a monthly fee to play a game... Frankly I was one of them. Then a friend of mine put it this way, "So you watch only the local chanels on your TV wiith the air signal alone? Just because there is a monthly fee doesn't mean you should avoid it. The difference is that in an online game there is more content than in the single player game." granted at the time he was convincing me to join him on SWG(way back when it was good, and we have since both quit that game). All I can say is give it an HONEST try. Don't go in with preconceptions and a chip on your shoulder. If you expect it to be a waste of money, that is what you will see.

Besides, it's going to be Loom Online

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Old 10-31-2007, 05:20 AM   #53
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Avellone
Lets all worship Avellone!

Much of TSL was made by him. It was also stabbed in the skull and lobotomized by him and Obsidian. They had a time frame to work in, they failed to work in that time frame, and the story ended up being butchered up and put together poorly into an overall disappointing game with AMAZING potential.

Avellone wrote Torment. Yeah, thats great and all but that does not put him in a good place for writing a KOTOR sequel. Why? Because KOTOR is an action/story driven game with dialog at the wheel. Normally that would be perfect for him, but then you have to look at Torment. The game has hours, and hours, and hours, and HOURS, AND HOURS of text to explain the story, characters, etc. He is what I like to call a book writer... not a game story writer. A book writer has near unlimited space to write out the story he is set to make, so he can spend all the time he wants and all the paper he wants explaining what is going on. Then there are the game writers, who have limited time and space to put story in while a clock counts down over them to release. They are required to take the story, shrink it down, and still make it work fantastically. Avellone and Obsidian could not take that apparently, and that is why it turned into the mess that mods are still trying to pick up to this day.

I am not saying that Avellone is a bad writer, or that he makes terrible games. He makes amazing stories, but he and the other writers at Obsidian seemed to think they had unlimited time working on this story as the timer ticked second by second. I bet if Avellone still could, he would be writing dialog and story for TSL and KOTOR to this very day... the gaming industry does not work like that. He and the other writers were required to fit the story into a space in a limited amount of time under pressure. He failed to do so, and failed to tell the story he wanted, resulting in gapping plot holes and unanswered questions. And they didn't even do a good job of it! They still left the HK factory dialog in the game, they put incomplete planets into the game that were poorly put together, and the ended the game on Malachor in what can only be described as cluster-f*** of nothingness.

They didn't even do the dialog right. The influence system? The thing is a freaking incomplete piece of junk. Any game where I can invite a char onto my ship and through clever conversation unlock 80% of their story and dialog in one go shouldn't be worth my time or energy, but sadly it is. It fails horribly in compare to other RPGs... especially its parent.

Yes... its parent. The first Knights Of The Old Republic. You know, I notice a lot of you screaming about now that Oblivion and Avellone are out... that Kotor can no longer be Kotor. I'm sorry, but what parallel dimension do you live in where TSL came first and the original second? Kotor is LA and Bioware's child that hit the market and spawned a cult following, got amazing reviews, and has been labeled by many as one of the better RPGs of our time.

And why did Kotor 1 do so great? Because of Bioware. You can yell at me all you want, but the numbers do not lie. Kotor 1 did a LOT better than TSL... because TSL is a poorly written mess. Kotor came along and rocked a lot of people, some in a good way some in a bad. But it got great numbers because it was done right. It had plot holes, it had unanswered questions, and it made you wonder what happened next. How is that different from TSL? It is different because Bioware did it right. They used their time and resources to put together a near full story and left what was left over for questions and fan opinion, seeing as Kotor is truly seen through the eyes of the player. It left it open for fan fiction, for wonder and imagination. TSL left many at the end wondering "Is that all?", some happy about it but as far as I can tell many others confused and irritated that so much potential was wasted by a group of people that shouldn't have done the sequel in the first place.

EA and LA are probably going to hit each other a few times, yes. But EA now owns a lot of the video game market, and is much larger than LA. If both of them know what is good for them, EA will realize that there is untapped potential that Bioware and LA can still do for a nice profit, and LA will realize that the world does not revolve around them... same goes for EA. It is in fact possible for people to get along you know. Want to argue? I seem to remember many of you saying that hell would freeze over before LA would ever be able to work with Bioware again.

Guess what? Hell just froze over.

Now, while you sit there freezing, try and consider that the industry is not as predictable as we all think it is, and that our opinion is just that: opinion. I would bet a large sum of money that pretty much everything I said above is about to be proven wrong because I do not know how the industry works either. Money can do odd things to rivalry's and friendships, and a common goal can make the most bitter of enemies see fit to jump into something together. EA and LA might stab each other in the eyes and never talk again.

I think I have made my reasons clear on why I do not think LA and Obsidian play nice together. LA and Bioware made something that was fantastic, then LA and Bioware walked away and LA found Obsidian, who made... something. For good or bad, they made something and apparently LA realized that Bioware did a better job taking care of its child than Obsidian did. If I were in their place, I would have run back to Bioware as well. They have a long history of great storytelling, and LA has a long history of good ideas and ownership rights... but terrible storytelling. LA tested the waters, Avellone and Obsidian failed, so LA said bye bye. Simple as that.

But, as I have said in previous posts, WHY DOES ANY OF THAT MATTER ANYWAY?!

Disregard my opinions on TSL, disregard what I say about Avellone, and disregard what I said about Obsidian. If you are going to pay attention to anything I say then pay attention to this:

Prove to me 100% that KOTOR III is going to be made by them or that the KOTOR MMO is being made. You all seem so sure that this is going to happen, but you base this all under rumors and word of mouth. Its like watching a cult standing in a field waiting for the Aliens to come take them home. Will the Aliens ever come? Who the hell knows. Yes, there is evidence to show that a Star Wars game is about to be birthed in the coming time. Do we know that it is going to be KOTOR or a KOTOR MMO? No, we do not and if you disagree put all your 100% proven and authenticated facts in front of me right now to prove me otherwise.

Am I trying to call you all stupid? No. What I am saying is to not get your hopes up. When that MMO is announced, half of you will be screaming in agony and the other in glee. It is going to be either KOTOR or a vast amount of other possible games. Because of this completely overdone hype that you all have put yourselves in... well, you have destined yourselves to be disappointed no matter what. You go to a movie expecting perfection you will be sorely disappointed every time. You get a game expecting 10/10 completely, then you will always be able to find something wrong with it.

Do I care if an MMO or Kotor III ever get made? No, I could honestly care less. Why? Because I loved Kotor. Because, despite its shortcomings, I loved TSL. They were both great games, and both ended in mystery. A lot of you seem soooooooooooo sure that an MMO or SPRPG will wrap the story up nicely. You have just set yourself up to be disappointed. Even if a Kotor game is made, the main char will most likely be someone new on a new journey to discover what has happened to Exile and Revan. Why? Because this story has no happy ending or bad ending. Revan and Exile are your characters. They are you, and your opinions and actions reflected into the game. Gender, Light and Dark Side, companions... do you really think they can bring Revan or Exile back, or finish up the story without p***ing off a lot of people? Please, explain to me a way to finish this story up and I will apologize for everything I have said.

On the contrary, Bioware seems set on continuing to say that they are not making Kotor III. Maybe they are lying, maybe they are not. They have an MMO in the works, and even if it is Kotor I have my doubts about how close it will be to the Revan/Exile stories. It could be set in the Mandalorian wars, could be set in the newly birthed Jedi Order, could be set years and years into the future. Revan and Exile could just be passing comments from characters, small topics of a time long gone. I just think so many of you are on a Kotor high right now that you don't realize that in a single news article all your hopes and dreams for this series could grow or die completely.

Anyway, thats my feelings on the matter. Flame away.
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Old 10-31-2007, 09:12 AM   #54
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as they say in French-Canadien les awesommes !!

Its luck I aint having kids, because if I ever did theyd be called Bioware1,2,3 etc

Bioware pwnz all deities/presidents/fast food colonels and clowns

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Old 10-31-2007, 09:13 AM   #55
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Damn, Avery. This must be the largest post ever made on the Unknown Regions evar.

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I just think so many of you are on a Kotor high right now that you don't realize that in a single news article all your hopes and dreams for this series could grow or die completely.
While I agree, in a way, it should be noted that anything involving LucasArts and Bioware is worth being talked and hyped about considerably, to the point that swords are drawn when the ultimate product is a disappointment. It's just the way life works, man.


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Old 10-31-2007, 09:18 AM   #56
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Damn, Avery. This must be the largest post ever made on the Unknown Regions evar.


While I agree, in a way, it should be noted that anything involving LucasArts and Bioware is worth being talked and hyped about considerably, to the point that swords are drawn when the ultimate product is a disappointment. It's just the way life works, man.
Exactly, let's think back to the last game LA and BioWare released...My point exactly



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Old 10-31-2007, 10:54 AM   #57
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I'll hope for a SP game, but who knows what this will turn out to be.

But the thought of having to kill gizkas a thousand times over isn't very appealing to me. Nor having a galaxy where everyone is either a Jedi or a Sith.

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Old 10-31-2007, 12:31 PM   #58
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I'm a member at Bioware.com and 1000+ members have joined since yesterday... I think KotOR is in demand lol


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Old 10-31-2007, 12:43 PM   #59
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The more I think of it the more it smells like KotOR 3 though, cause an MMO would be just stupid, like Prime said, having a Galaxy full of Jedi and Sith is very un-cool, and even if you throw in other classes and such, well, just look at Galaxies...I rest my case.

Fact is: BioWare makes RPGs, if it's not the '09 MMO I don't see what else it could be other than K3...Demand is huge and the popularity of Mass Effect even before its release proves that BioWare has what it takes to make epic 360 games...Which would follow the trend of the other KotOR games (First on cr*pBox then on PC)
Which is probably what'll happen to Mass Effect and K3 as well (if it's being made that is)



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Old 10-31-2007, 01:55 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Corinthian
Yeah, because their first partnership, which birthed the original KotoR was a catastrophe...Root for Obsidian as they brutally tear apart future installments in series. TSL and NWN2 are both massive disappointments compared to their fathers.
That's an opinion, not a fact. You're entitled to yours, but so is everyone else, at and a LOT of people here disagree with you...

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Originally Posted by Corinthian
And you can say that it's because they were rushed out the door, but the fact is, Avellone is too ambitious and has twice so far bitten off more than he can choke down. Bioware is far more experienced.
Well, duh! That's a bit of an easy assault to make, given that TSL was Obsidian's first game. That's like saying nobody could ever write better Star Wars plots than George Lucas because he has more experience...

Besides, if we look at the people involved rather than the age of the company, the argument doesn't make much sense to me, since Avellone and most of the guys at Obsidian have far more experience than you could wave a stick at, just not as Obsidian. And if Obsidian are that inept and inexperienced, then what does it say about Bioware that they convinced LA to hire them to do TSL?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinthian
TSL might have had a GREAT plot, if it were finished. As it was, you could tell it was rushed out the door by how quickly and poorly the game wrapped up. The fates of the characters were dealt with in a massive infodump by the major villain! I'm sure that, had they finished the game within the deadline LucasArts gave them, it would have been great, but Avellone couldn't pull through. LucasArts wouldn't wait for Obsidian to finish on TSL, it's unlikely they would for III.
http://www.gamespy.com/articles/588/588057p1.html
...since we're on the subject of experience in the business.

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Bioware's games are consistently solid, they wrap up the plotlines, and I've never seen a Bioware game have so many flaws that a mod needs to practically rebuild the game.
That's not a fair comparison. Bioware was already a well-established company by the time they did KotOR, and they were big enough that LA couldn't push them around. Since TSL was Obsidian's first game, they did not enjoy the same advantage.

Besides, you seem to forget that LA cut two months from the deadline on TSL about halfway through development. That Obsidian was able to deliver a playable game under those conditions AND in less than year is a marvel of an achievement. But I dare say LA could not have cut the deadline if the developer's name had been Bioware, and IMHO it's unfair not to take that into consideration.


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Old 10-31-2007, 02:09 PM   #61
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Lets also not forget that two months were wasted writing a story for the game that didn't fit with the first one, simply because LA wouldn't allow them to play K1. Avellone said the writing team had no idea who Revan was!, until after their first draft was rejected and they were told to play K1.

I have played K1, K2, NWN, and NWN2 and in my opinion the sequals far suppassed the orginals in story and content.

Also I really hope if it is K3, BioWare lets Aavellone come in and finish his plot.

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Old 10-31-2007, 02:11 PM   #62
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This Thread isn't called Bioware vs Obsidian dudes, theres a possibility of more KotOR, lets not drag it down the pan. We all know the pro's and con's of both previous games and don't need to be reminded every day!

I'm just exited that Lucasarts is making games, and as a fan of Bioware that doubles the fun for me


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Old 10-31-2007, 03:20 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
Much of TSL was made by him. It was also stabbed in the skull and lobotomized by him and Obsidian. They had a time frame to work in, they failed to work in that time frame, and the story ended up being butchered up and put together poorly into an overall disappointing game with AMAZING potential.
Sure.... if you completely forget that LA cut two months from that schedule...

Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
Avellone wrote Torment. Yeah, thats great and all but that does not put him in a good place for writing a KOTOR sequel. Why? Because KOTOR is an action/story driven game with dialog at the wheel. Normally that would be perfect for him, but then you have to look at Torment. The game has hours, and hours, and hours, and HOURS, AND HOURS of text to explain the story, characters, etc. He is what I like to call a book writer... not a game story writer. A book writer has near unlimited space to write out the story he is set to make, so he can spend all the time he wants and all the paper he wants explaining what is going on. Then there are the game writers, who have limited time and space to put story in while a clock counts down over them to release. They are required to take the story, shrink it down, and still make it work fantastically. Avellone and Obsidian could not take that apparently, and that is why it turned into the mess that mods are still trying to pick up to this day.
In that case, here's to hoping that NO "action/stroy driven game" will EVER be written again... Much as I like KotOR (the original), it's highly derivative of the original movie trilogy, whereas TSL at least tried to be original. YMMV.

And frankly, I don't understand how anybody can honestly criticize the guy who did such classic CRPGs as Fallout 2 and Torment. If that's what constitutes "not game story writing", then please - let us have all the "not game story writing" that we can...

Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
I am not saying that Avellone is a bad writer, or that he makes terrible games. He makes amazing stories, but he and the other writers at Obsidian seemed to think they had unlimited time working on this story as the timer ticked second by second. I bet if Avellone still could, he would be writing dialog and story for TSL and KOTOR to this very day... the gaming industry does not work like that. He and the other writers were required to fit the story into a space in a limited amount of time under pressure. He failed to do so, and failed to tell the story he wanted, resulting in gapping plot holes and unanswered questions. And they didn't even do a good job of it! They still left the HK factory dialog in the game, they put incomplete planets into the game that were poorly put together, and the ended the game on Malachor in what can only be described as cluster-f*** of nothingness.
Check your facts - LA cut two months from that schedule. Given that the production time was a year, I would humbly assume that just might be of relevance.

Besides, you're wrong - that Obsidian could write what TSL became in less than a year is a small miracle. There are companies out there who would kill to "fail" the way you suggest Obsidian did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
Yes... its parent. The first Knights Of The Old Republic. You know, I notice a lot of you screaming about now that Oblivion and Avellone are out... that Kotor can no longer be Kotor. I'm sorry, but what parallel dimension do you live in where TSL came first and the original second? Kotor is LA and Bioware's child that hit the market and spawned a cult following, got amazing reviews, and has been labeled by many as one of the better RPGs of our time.
[insert sigh here] Sure... Of course Bioware can do K3. Who says they can't? The problem is that we know they won't, because they have repeatedly said that they will not and are not working on K3. What parallel dimension do you live in, where they have not said so?

Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
And why did Kotor 1 do so great? Because of Bioware. You can yell at me all you want, but the numbers do not lie.
Sure they can. Statistics lie every day.

But you're right, of course - none of KotOR's success has ANYTHING to do with a rich background established by the comic books that the game was named after... perish the thought!

Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
Kotor 1 did a LOT better than TSL... because TSL is a poorly written mess.
Totally subjective. KotOR is better IMPLEMENTED (because Bioware, unlike Obsidian, were actually allowed to finish the game), but TSL had the better plot IMHO.

Now, you have a right to your opinion, but to state that TSL is poorly written as a matter of fact is just untrue, because it comes down to personal taste.

Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
Kotor came along and rocked a lot of people, some in a good way some in a bad. But it got great numbers because it was done right. It had plot holes, it had unanswered questions, and it made you wonder what happened next. How is that different from TSL? It is different because Bioware did it right. They used their time and resources to put together a near full story and left what was left over for questions and fan opinion, seeing as Kotor is truly seen through the eyes of the player. It left it open for fan fiction, for wonder and imagination. TSL left many at the end wondering "Is that all?", some happy about it but as far as I can tell many others confused and irritated that so much potential was wasted by a group of people that shouldn't have done the sequel in the first place.
1. TSL isn't left open for fan fiction?!?

2. TSL, unlike KotOR, was intentionally written for the purpose of a subsequent sequel. It's open-ended by design, not by omission or neglect. So your position is founded on a completely flawed assumption.

Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
EA and LA are probably going to hit each other a few times, yes. But EA now owns a lot of the video game market, and is much larger than LA. If both of them know what is good for them, EA will realize that there is untapped potential that Bioware and LA can still do for a nice profit, and LA will realize that the world does not revolve around them... same goes for EA.
LA will realise the world does not revolve around them? Sure... If they can see the sky for all the flying pigs...

And Satan just called - Hell DID freeze over!

Seriously, there is no way I can imagine that this agreement between LA and Bioware came about AFTER Bioware was bought by EA. I can ONLY imagine it if the deal was struck (and signed) before EA bought Bioware and then kept secret. Now, you're not going to hear either side admit to this - at least for a long time - because it will benefit neither. But no matter how you look at it, this deal will now mean that LA's deal with Bioware will make money for EA, which means it cuts into LA's profits. And there is no way LA is okay with that IMHO, because no matter how well the game(s) do(es), LA will always be thinking, "gee, we could have made even more money," because that's what business is like. It's not personal, it's just business.

Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
Now, while you sit there freezing, try and consider that the industry is not as predictable as we all think it is, and that our opinion is just that: opinion.
We finally agree on something...

Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
I think I have made my reasons clear on why I do not think LA and Obsidian play nice together. LA and Bioware made something that was fantastic, then LA and Bioware walked away and LA found Obsidian, who made... something. For good or bad, they made something and apparently LA realized that Bioware did a better job taking care of its child than Obsidian did. If I were in their place, I would have run back to Bioware as well. They have a long history of great storytelling, and LA has a long history of good ideas and ownership rights... but terrible storytelling. LA tested the waters, Avellone and Obsidian failed, so LA said bye bye. Simple as that.
You know, I tend to agree with that... Because the only alternative for LA is to acknowledge that they butchered TSL themselves, and so that it could happen with any game where they pushed the deadline.

Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
Prove to me 100% that KOTOR III is going to be made by them or that the KOTOR MMO is being made. You all seem so sure that this is going to happen, but you base this all under rumors and word of mouth. Its like watching a cult standing in a field waiting for the Aliens to come take them home. Will the Aliens ever come? Who the hell knows. Yes, there is evidence to show that a Star Wars game is about to be birthed in the coming time. Do we know that it is going to be KOTOR or a KOTOR MMO? No, we do not and if you disagree put all your 100% proven and authenticated facts in front of me right now to prove me otherwise.
Sophistry. If there was proof, discussion and speculation would be moot and so not take place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
Am I trying to call you all stupid? No. What I am saying is to not get your hopes up. When that MMO is announced, half of you will be screaming in agony and the other in glee. It is going to be either KOTOR or a vast amount of other possible games. Because of this completely overdone hype that you all have put yourselves in... well, you have destined yourselves to be disappointed no matter what. You go to a movie expecting perfection you will be sorely disappointed every time. You get a game expecting 10/10 completely, then you will always be able to find something wrong with it.
Au contraire. If it now turns out not to be KotOR in any way, then I'll actually be overjoyed. I'm "screaming in agony" exactly because I'm not getting my hopes up but preparing for the worst. To quote Garak, "I alway hope for the best. Experience - unfortunately - has taught me to expect the worst."

Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
Do I care if an MMO or Kotor III ever get made? No, I could honestly care less. Why? Because I loved Kotor. Because, despite its shortcomings, I loved TSL. They were both great games, and both ended in mystery. A lot of you seem soooooooooooo sure that an MMO or SPRPG will wrap the story up nicely. You have just set yourself up to be disappointed. Even if a Kotor game is made, the main char will most likely be someone new on a new journey to discover what has happened to Exile and Revan. Why? Because this story has no happy ending or bad ending. Revan and Exile are your characters. They are you, and your opinions and actions reflected into the game. Gender, Light and Dark Side, companions... do you really think they can bring Revan or Exile back, or finish up the story without p***ing off a lot of people? Please, explain to me a way to finish this story up and I will apologize for everything I have said.
I think so, and I have long since explained why and how. But it does depend on your perspective, of course. If you think that Revan and/or exile are gods than will defeat any enemy and overcome any obstacle ever, then you'll naturally be disappointed in any event, because that is never true of ANY character in ANY plot. If TSL made any mistake, then it was in how it failed to deflate the exaggerated view some people have of Revan and even adding to it IMHO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
On the contrary, Bioware seems set on continuing to say that they are not making Kotor III. Maybe they are lying, maybe they are not. They have an MMO in the works, and even if it is Kotor I have my doubts about how close it will be to the Revan/Exile stories. It could be set in the Mandalorian wars, could be set in the newly birthed Jedi Order, could be set years and years into the future. Revan and Exile could just be passing comments from characters, small topics of a time long gone. I just think so many of you are on a Kotor high right now that you don't realize that in a single news article all your hopes and dreams for this series could grow or die completely.
Being on a "KotOR high" seems unlikely given how much time has passed since the last installment. People are not on a high - they're just annoyed that they've been waiting for years and there STILL is no KotOR3 on the horizon or even news of it. If LA had said that KotOR games were dead, then it would be easier, because then we could at least mourn their demise and reminisce about the games and how great they were. As it is we're all in Limbo and stuck there...


"It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built" - Kreia

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Old 10-31-2007, 03:52 PM   #64
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I don't have any real perference when it comes to the games, I enjoy many aspects of KOTOR 1 and many of KOTOR 2. There are some innovations with the influence system that could have improved K1. The more animated clothing used in the game, and I'd like to see what The Force Unleashed can bring to the KOTOR series.

ON the assumption that this new game will indeed be a new KOTOR game, I simply want the best, I don't really care who it takes to produce that. I want something that feels like I'm not simply playing a mod for TSL or K1. There's a thousand speculation topics on what should/will be in a K3 if it's ever made, so I won't go there.

I just don't want K3 to turn out like Revenge of the Sith. Poorly acted and feeling like I missed something.


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Old 10-31-2007, 04:27 PM   #65
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Until they announce what the game is I’m going to assume it is Lego Star Wars KOTOR or BattleFront KOTOR. No matter I’m not getting my hopes up either way. I’ll hope for KOTOR III, but my hopes are not high.

Prime nailed my thoughts of a MMORPG in his usual straight to the point way, so enough said there.

What is with the TSL bashing, makes me want to cry. True_Avery I am shocked. I said it once and I’ll say it again, KOTOR better game the first play through, TSL better for multiple play throughs. Both are my favorite games, at least until November 20, I hope.
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Old 10-31-2007, 06:07 PM   #66
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I wouldn't be upset to see both get made, but I'm going to reserve judgement for now on exactly what is going on.
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Old 10-31-2007, 06:54 PM   #67
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At this point I wouldn't care if Bioware or Obsidian makes KotOR 3, as long as it means that KotOR 3 is a reality. Both companies have their pros and cons, and both KotORs 1 & 2 were great.


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Old 10-31-2007, 07:54 PM   #68
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Don't get me wrong, I love Avellone. He gave me some of my favorite games. But he failed on TSL. LucasArts screwed up, too, but Obsidian is not entirely innocent. NWN 2 also had the rushed ending of TSL.

Also, they made the actual Sith Lords really lame. Sion falls in love with the Exile? Nihilus never even speaks a recognizable language? Kreia was okay, but she really was mostly just the typical Total Nihilist you see in every other fantasy or Sci-Fi. "Blow up the Force". What the hell?
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Old 10-31-2007, 08:56 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinthian
Also, they made the actual Sith Lords really lame. Sion falls in love with the Exile? Nihilus never even speaks a recognizable language? Kreia was okay, but she really was mostly just the typical Total Nihilist you see in every other fantasy or Sci-Fi. "Blow up the Force". What the hell?
Nihilus is mysterious and deadly. He is evil incarnate, and that is why he cannot be known in any way. Besides, we already know that Avellone had bigger plans for him. In short, he is strange, yes, but there is a reason for it, a reason why he must be like this.

As for Kreia's cause, it is thought-provoking and original in the context of Star Wars - she is the Star Wars version of Captain Ahab and is - like Ahab - at war with god (=will of the Force). It's complex, sure, but at least it doesn't carbon-copy the gazillion other superficial Star Wars plots we've seen.

As for Sion, I actually agree with you - the lame Sion/exile love thing is silly in the extreme and a major reason why I cannot accept the exile as female. For the male exile, the plot is fine, but for the (canon) female exile, the "love the sith"-plot is tacked on and badly written, while the relationship with Atris seems comparatively forced. Therefore it always felt to me like the authors intended the exile to be male.


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Old 10-31-2007, 09:05 PM   #70
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Unfortunately, it's pretty much canon that Exile is female, so if anyone ever writes a tie-in novel, it's going to contain that horrendous nightmare of a love interest. Fortunately, we can probably dodge it in most other mediums.

Nihilus had no character. His whole thing was just Kreia, except with a Vader Mask and less interesting. Much less interesting.

No, she doesn't carbon copy anyone from Star Wars, because Star Wars usually takes the Megalomaniac approach instead of the Nihilist approach.
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Old 10-31-2007, 11:51 PM   #71
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While I would rather have K3-which is still possible-an mmo set in the time of the Mandalorian Wars could be quite interesting, especially with BioWare at the helm. hmmm... imagine yourself and hundreds of other players fighting in battles maybe even alongside such characters as: Canderous Ordo, Carth Onasi, Arren Kae, and REVAN and THE EXILE!!!
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Old 11-01-2007, 12:19 AM   #72
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The game is going to be a single player game and it is going to be KOTOR III.........this is my dream.


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Old 11-01-2007, 01:02 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Nihilus is mysterious and deadly. He is evil incarnate, and that is why he cannot be known in any way. Besides, we already know that Avellone had bigger plans for him. In short, he is strange, yes, but there is a reason for it, a reason why he must be like this.
Yeah, I'd really love to see Nihilus or his legacy in the next KotOR, that guy had a lot going for him. The entire game I was hoping there was going to be a huge revelation about that guy and I got giddy when I finally beat him and bang - he's evaporated. Story over, let's go to Kreia now.


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Old 11-01-2007, 08:01 AM   #74
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Looks like we finally have a Bioware vs Obsidian thread.

I hope this cooperation between Bioware and Lucasarts will result in a sinlge RPG. Not a MMORPG. If the single RPG happens to be Kotor 3, good. Though I think that Obsidian might be able to continue TSL better story-wise.
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Old 11-01-2007, 11:03 AM   #75
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For all of the faithful Avellone worshippers (I'm one, too ) there could be a silver lining even if this means that Bioware is making KotOR 3.

Bioware will have to continue the story where Avellone left off, as the TSL storyline is now canon after all. Given the close relationship between Bioware and Obsidian, he might even be called in as a storyline consultant.

Maybe.


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Old 11-01-2007, 11:10 AM   #76
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Lego Star Wars KOTOR
I'd love to see this!

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Old 11-01-2007, 11:19 AM   #77
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I'd love to see this!
Ask Watson to loan you his copy.*


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Old 11-01-2007, 12:21 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Nihilus is mysterious and deadly. He is evil incarnate, and that is why he cannot be known in any way. Besides, we already know that Avellone had bigger plans for him. In short, he is strange, yes, but there is a reason for it, a reason why he must be like this.
I beg to differ. 1-dimensional would also be an accurate description, I feel.

You couldn't have found a better way to reply here DI? This is a definite flame-bait attempt. See that this doesn't happen again, mkay? -RH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
As for Kreia's cause, it is thought-provoking and original in the context of Star Wars - she is the Star Wars version of Captain Ahab and is - like Ahab - at war with god (=will of the Force). It's complex, sure, but at least it doesn't carbon-copy the gazillion other superficial Star Wars plots we've seen.
Quite. However, she also copies the "whiny teacher" model, is about the closest relative to Sidious in terms of character, and isn't so much novel as counter-rational, impossible to please, lies, cheats, and moves the goalposts all the time.

Seriously, though, she isn't some wondrously novel character. Her vaunted talk about hating the Force seems to me to be an excuse for the emo/anarchist who never grew up. She got wound up because she was a crap teacher, flounced out of the Jedi Order in a huff, then got annoyed when her ridiculously stupid new apprentices who derive power from, to quote Canderous, something equivalent to "driving a spike through your head", and flounced off again to go around with a guy/gal she apparently disliked for his/her 'stupidity' by her judgement, called them a failure and ran away, then when he beat two successive 'apprentices' turned volte-face and said "actually, it was all a test", then decides that her insane plan is something she both wants and sees mustn't happen...There's a mess of plot ideas and threads that in the end, rather than creating a cohesive moevement through the game, instead gives the impression of a car crash involving multiple story lines.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
As for Sion, I actually agree with you - the lame Sion/exile love thing is silly in the extreme and a major reason why I cannot accept the exile as female. For the male exile, the plot is fine, but for the (canon) female exile, the "love the sith"-plot is tacked on and badly written, while the relationship with Atris seems comparatively forced. Therefore it always felt to me like the authors intended the exile to be male.
I third this motion. The relationship with Atris as a female Exile seems, well...stupid:-

"We were very good friends. And that is why I've been pining for ten years over my best friend doing something that I find wrong, and have cut myself off from the rest of the Order, hated her and fallen to the Dark Side over it because...err...I wear my heart on my sleeve, despite that being as dangerous in a Jedi as [etc etc]?" - Huh?


As for the whole Sion love thing - what? They met maybe four times, and each time he tried to kill her! Fishy-fishy, to quote the whimpering locker on Manaan.

Now onto the topic: Some people seem to think this is a disaster. Come on. It's not like it's - oh, I don't know - Lionhead studios - are definitely making KotOR III.

Even if Bioware is, they're still damn good developers, and the original storyline is hardly the bad fanfic that some make it out to be. For that matter, neither is TSL's the meisterwork of social commentary on a par with Vile Bodies, nor a Shakespearean linguistic masterpiece (despite the dialogue which at times reads like it was put together by someoen from about 1593), nor is it an epic on the scale of Tolkien. It's a fairly good game, but it's hardly going to set the world alight.

Bioware + LA = something fairly good. Even an MMO by them would at least be guaranteed to involve some fairly cool concepts. Who knows at this juncture? Wait, see, then start screaming and slitting your wrists.

If it is either Obsidian or Bioware that make KotOR III, I'll be OK with it. It's not like I get a vote on the subject anyhow...

...If it's a new PC, however, there will be blood.



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Old 11-01-2007, 01:24 PM   #79
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Maybe it's not KotoR at all. Maybe LA wants Bioware to make an Indiana Jones game, or maybe something completely different. To be honest, KotoR should have been the first, last, and only game in the series. They wrapped everything up at the end. Malak was toast, the Star Forge was gone, Revan was redeemed. Then LucasArts tried to milk it and we get this bizarre plotline about Revan leaving the Republic to go fight 'The True Sith'.

We've got a total of something like 25000 years of history that hasn't even been touched upon, not counting the Rakata Occupations and everything before the founding of the Republic. And instead of building up, everything is set in three time periods: Original Trilogy Era, Prequel Trilogy Era, and KotoR. They're just now doing "Between OT and PT." Geez.
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Old 11-01-2007, 01:56 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Darth InSidious

Seriously, though, she isn't some wondrously novel character. Her vaunted talk about hating the Force seems to me to be an excuse for the emo/anarchist who never grew up. She got wound up because she was a crap teacher, flounced out of the Jedi Order in a huff, then got annoyed when her ridiculously stupid new apprentices who derive power from, to quote Canderous, something equivalent to "driving a spike through your head", and flounced off again to go around with a guy/gal she apparently disliked for his/her 'stupidity' by her judgement, called them a failure and ran away, then when he beat two successive 'apprentices' turned volte-face and said "actually, it was all a test", then decides that her insane plan is something she both wants and sees mustn't happen...There's a mess of plot ideas and threads that in the end, rather than creating a cohesive moevement through the game, instead gives the impression of a car crash involving multiple story lines.

You should portray more characters. =)
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