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Old 11-01-2007, 01:16 PM   #81
Jvstice
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corinthian: Yeah. I'd love to see the fall of Ajunta Pall in a Bioware game.
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Old 11-01-2007, 01:23 PM   #82
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hmmm, a game based around the Exile of the Dark Jedi into Sith space, and there subsequent rise as Dark Lords of the Sith... cool


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Old 11-01-2007, 06:22 PM   #83
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You know the word interactive in the press release kinda speaks volumes though...Unless that's what they want us to think!

Get Mulder and Scully here on the double!!!



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Old 11-01-2007, 09:04 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Post #61 and #64
That's my J-Phile.

Anyhow, I'm starting to think that BioWare's "new next gen game" which must be the LA game, since there "Massively Multiplayer Online" game was announced ages ago, isn’t a KotOR III MMORPG. Why?

-BioWare has said they’re not making any more KotOR games...
-They wouldn’t make two MMORPG’s at the same time or consecutively, would they?
-Remember Avellone’s fairly recent interview? It went from "We aren't developing it right now and I don't think anyone else is, either" to in the interview: " I can't talk about it." Hmm....
-LA has made non-Star Wars games before. There’s a possibility this game has nothing to do with KotOR or Star Wars, which I hope is the case.

Given the above, suddenly there’s a good chance BioWare won’t be making a SP or MPO version of KotOR III. If that’s the case, **** yes! Avellone’s the man. He’s pretty much already done his K3 plot. LA would be foolish not to let him unveil his awesomeness.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Don’t be surprised if your plot isn’t far off from Avellone’s vision of K3, Jediphile. Hell, I bet you’ve even got the planets right.


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Old 11-01-2007, 09:10 PM   #85
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At this point I feel confident that this BioWare/LucasArts partnership will yield an MMORPG based on a LucasArts IP.


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Old 11-01-2007, 09:12 PM   #86
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If you're going to be that general, that could even be a grim fandago mmo.
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Old 11-01-2007, 09:16 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Negative Sun
You know the word interactive in the press release kinda speaks volumes though...Unless that's what they want us to think!

Get Mulder and Scully here on the double!!!
You do realize that even Pong could be considered 'interactive', right?

Push a button, and you interact with the enviroment, being able to manipulate a ping-pong ball to fly in the other direction.

"Interactivity" is just a buzz word.

Quote:
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Don’t be surprised if your plot isn’t far off from Avellone’s vision of K3, Jediphile. Hell, I bet you’ve even got the planets right.
Er. Maybe that may be true, but I think Avellone MUST have a different plotline. Why? Because to keep it unique, that's all. What's the point of the "plot twist" if everyone knows about it happening before the game's even announced? Besides, nobody predicted Kreia when speculating on K2.


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Originally Posted by The Onion
"The Cambodian government has established many exciting-sounding 're-education camps' where both intellectuals and everyday citizens can be sent at any time," Day said. Well, we at Barnes & Noble have always supported re-education in America, and we intend to extend this policy to our new customers." For every hardcover book sold, Barnes & Noble will donate a dollar to the Cambodian government to help re-educate local children.
Full Article Here
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Old 11-01-2007, 09:24 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
You do realize that even Pong could be considered 'interactive', right?

Push a button, and you interact with the enviroment, being able to manipulate a ping-pong ball to fly in the other direction.

"Interactivity" is just a buzz word.
We also don't live in 1980 anymore...Interactive doesn't have the same impacts as it used to, whereas it used to be a novelty merely to interact with a computer, now that computer has become such a part of society that the interaction is done via computer, with another person...
Slight nuance but worth mentioning



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Old 11-01-2007, 09:31 PM   #89
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We also don't live in 1980 anymore...Interactive doesn't have the same impacts as it used to, whereas it used to be a novelty merely to interact with a computer, now that computer has become such a part of society that the interaction is done via computer, with another person...
Thing is, I've seen games where you interact with the enviroment, even today. There was that "Red Faction" game where you can interact with the enviroment by blowing stuff up and then going through those hazards. They even use the exact same buzzword of "interactivty" in its ad campagin, and I think it was around 2000 when that game was released. Maybe, by interactivty, it means that whatever you do in the game world could end up affecting the future of the game world, leading to different endings, so you are interacting with the game.

Interactive is just too broad for me to just pigeon-hole it in just one method.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Onion
"The Cambodian government has established many exciting-sounding 're-education camps' where both intellectuals and everyday citizens can be sent at any time," Day said. Well, we at Barnes & Noble have always supported re-education in America, and we intend to extend this policy to our new customers." For every hardcover book sold, Barnes & Noble will donate a dollar to the Cambodian government to help re-educate local children.
Full Article Here
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Old 11-01-2007, 10:09 PM   #90
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Hmmm good point that...



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Old 11-01-2007, 11:56 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jvstice
If you're going to be that general, that could even be a grim fandago mmo.
Uh, sure, it could be but you honestly don't expect it to be, right?

What if I said that I feel confident that it will be a MMORPG based in the Star Wars universe at some point in the timeline prior to 1,000 BBY? That is what I expect it to be but am not 100% confident in that. BioWare and LucasArts could surprise us with something else I guess but I don't see this project turning out to be an original IP or anything other than an MMORPG.


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Old 11-02-2007, 12:11 AM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Char Ell
BioWare and LucasArts could surprise us with something else I guess but I don't see this project turning out to be an original IP or anything other than an MMORPG.

There's nothing indicating an original IP, but I don't see your reasoning for this being an MMORPG. Although I'm not closed to the idea, I feel that it's only one of the possibilities, with none of the others having more or less chances of being true.

The success of World of Warcraft certainly has pushed the industry to produce more MMORPGs, but that doesn't mean that every RPG made in the future has this specter of the MMO lying over its head. True, MMOs, when successful, can bring in huge amounts of revenue. When they are successful.


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Old 11-02-2007, 12:55 AM   #93
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LIAYD, keeping me honest.

My reasons for believing that the BioWare/LucasArts project is an MMORPG are as follows:
1) Why go to the effort of creating a joint domain, lucasartsbioware.com, for a single player RPG? Wouldn't it make more sense just to go with the standard developer/publisher relationship if that is all it's going to be?

2) Why would BioWare go back to developing a SPRPG for a licensed IP when they've been doing just fine with making games for their own IP? After all, BioWare did turn down the opportunity to develop a KotOR sequel. Plus BioWare had plenty of funding from their parent company, VG Holdings, so there aren't any apparent financial reasons for BioWare to go back to making SPRPG's for licenses.

3) BioWare is making their first foray into an MMORPG and being able to use a high profile licensed IP like Star Wars for the game would help immensely with garnering attention ergo a successful launch. Look at what BioWare did with their first handheld title. A licensed IP (Sonic). This is a strategy BioWare has already employed with SPRPG's for PC and the strategy has been proven to be a successful one for them. Use licensed IP's to help get started in a new genre/platform and then as the development experience is gained and reputation is established for that genre/platform the company can move forward with developing titles using original IP.


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Old 11-02-2007, 01:19 AM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Char Ell
LIAYD, keeping me honest.

My reasons for believing that the BioWare/LucasArts project is an MMORPG are as follows:
1) Why go to the effort of creating a joint domain, lucasartsbioware.com, for a single player RPG? Wouldn't it make more sense just to go with the standard developer/publisher relationship if that is all it's going to be?

2) Why would BioWare go back to developing a SPRPG for a licensed IP when they've been doing just fine with making games for their own IP? After all, BioWare did turn down the opportunity to develop a KotOR sequel. Plus BioWare had plenty of funding from their parent company, VG Holdings, so there aren't any apparent financial reasons for BioWare to go back to making SPRPG's for licenses.

3) BioWare is making their first foray into an MMORPG and being able to use a high profile licensed IP like Star Wars for the game would help immensely with garnering attention ergo a successful launch. Look at what BioWare did with their first handheld title. A licensed IP (Sonic). This is a strategy BioWare has already employed with SPRPG's for PC and the strategy has been proven to be a successful one for them. Use licensed IP's to help get started in a new genre/platform and then as the development experience is gained and reputation is established for that genre/platform the company can move forward with developing titles using original IP.

1- Knowing that it's co-developed, it might have been a good idea to make such a domain to solidify the partnership.

2- There's always a possibility that LucasArts might have come up with a good offer for them. Maybe not monetary, but a conjunction of factors might have changed their minds about making a sequel to the two KotORs. What factors? Could be anything from an interesting monetary offer to better freedom then what might have been offered for making KotOR 2. The truth is, I don't exactly know, but I'm just mentioning possibilities.

3- That is only assuming their MMO is indeed a Star Wars game and that this partnership is exactly about that. It would be kind of weird to try to spearhead the market with two different MMOs. I get the feeling however that this partnership is something relatively new. I could certainly be wrong though.


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Old 11-02-2007, 01:38 AM   #95
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No. I don't think a grim fandago mmo is realistic. I do think you may be a little overly quick to pigeonhole them.

It could be a matter of hoping for the best and making plans for the possibility just in case. As to the joint domain, why couldn't it be possible that they are setting up a foundation to build on if their partnership with a Kotor 3 project goes well. Then they would already have in place the infrastructure to market other Pre - Darth Bane rpg's either from the KOTOR time frame or not. I wouldn't want to bet on this possibility at this point either, but it doesn't seem any less likely to me.

Not being on the inside of the game industry, all we know is that they are laying groundwork for a potentially long term partnership. I don't know that you can say more than that at this point with just the information we know now.
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Old 11-02-2007, 02:16 AM   #96
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First, I want to state for the record that I'm not saying I know exactly what the BioWare/LucasArts project will be. I am stating my opinions on what I think it will be based off what I've read and researched on BioWare and LucasArts over the past year or so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
- That is only assuming their MMO is indeed a Star Wars game and that this partnership is exactly about that. It would be kind of weird to try to spearhead the market with two different MMOs. I get the feeling however that this partnership is something relatively new. I could certainly be wrong though.
Well, the lucasartsbioware.com domain was registered on Oct. 11, the same day that EA announced they were purchasing BioWare and Pandemic Studios. That says to me that the details of how the joint BioWare/LucasArts project would be handled had been worked out during the acquisition process. I think it's likely this deal between LA and BioWare was reached some time ago and there was a lot of behind-the-scenes activity to work out how the joint BioWare/LA project was going to be handled with EA entering the picture.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jvstice
As to the joint domain, why couldn't it be possible that they are setting up a foundation to build on if their partnership with a Kotor 3 project goes well. Then they would already have in place the infrastructure to market other Pre - Darth Bane rpg's either from the KOTOR time frame or not.
I try never to say never but the only reason I see for such a partnership to exist is if the game is an MMORPG. BioWare knows it will have EA as its publisher going forward. BioWare didn't need LucasArts. The only reason for BioWare and LucasArts to partner up is to work on a LucasArts-owned IP and it doesn't make sense to me for this joint partnership to exist for a SPRPG. BioWare has been there, done that, and moved on in the SPRPG world. I see no compelling reason for them to go back to licensed IP's in that genre.


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Old 11-02-2007, 02:58 AM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Char Ell
BioWare has been there, done that, and moved on in the SPRPG world. I see no compelling reason for them to go back to licensed IP's in that genre.
It'd be a safe bet for easy money.


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Old 11-02-2007, 02:59 AM   #98
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But E.A. may see things differently than the people formerly calling the shots at Bioware before their acquisition. Not saying that I know it is the case, just that it's possible and that we don't know.
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Old 11-02-2007, 04:03 AM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Sure.... if you completely forget that LA cut two months from that schedule...

Check your facts - LA cut two months from that schedule. Given that the production time was a year, I would humbly assume that just might be of relevance.
I had forgotten about that, and you have indeed proven pretty much everything I said as false thought.

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Originally Posted by Jediphile
[insert sigh here] Sure... Of course Bioware can do K3. Who says they can't? The problem is that we know they won't, because they have repeatedly said that they will not and are not working on K3. What parallel dimension do you live in, where they have not said so?
I was speaking in term if Bioware was in fact making the game. I completely agree and personally think that a KOTOR game is very unlikely, but still possible. As I have asked, please present me proof that it is being made and anything before hand is pointless debate.

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Originally Posted by Jediphile
Sure they can. Statistics lie every day.

But you're right, of course - none of KotOR's success has ANYTHING to do with a rich background established by the comic books that the game was named after... perish the thought!
And I see great comic books made into terrible movies everyday. Your point?

It takes a good director, a good team to turn something that is great into something equally great. It takes an ignorant or average team to turn a great story pretty sour. As you have said, the team was cut time and had its beginning planning process destroyed by LA due to the original script having nothing to do with KOTOR. And I shall change my opinion and place more blame on LA for TSL over Obsidian, but if I was Obsidian I wouldn't of taken the job in the first place after being treated like that. If a marriage starts with zero information followed by barking orders, I would get divorced immediately... and if I was in Obsidian's shoes, I would have quit or threatened to quit for being treated like trash. I would have held out for a better shot, or let LA pick on another company. Who knows maybe LA would have been better with another company, but probably not. Better release something complete and smooth with a good company than release something that is uneven and full of holes for a company that treats you like dirt.

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Originally Posted by Jediphile
Totally subjective. KotOR is better IMPLEMENTED (because Bioware, unlike Obsidian, were actually allowed to finish the game), but TSL had the better plot IMHO.
I agree on the implementation, but we differ on story opinions and I am glad of it. Makes you better for kicking down my poorly written arguement, and I mean that in no way to be offensive.

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Originally Posted by Jediphile
Now, you have a right to your opinion, but to state that TSL is poorly written as a matter of fact is just untrue, because it comes down to personal taste.
Agreed, and I was wrong to state it as fact. What I feel I was trying to state that the story was uneven, incomplete, and full of plot holes. But, as you have said, most of that blame can be placed on LA.

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Originally Posted by Jediphile
1. TSL isn't left open for fan fiction?!?
Everything is left over for fanfiction or porn
Again, I overstepped my thoughts. But, I believe there is a line between fiction to take off a polished game and fiction to fill in massive gaps in a plot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
2. TSL, unlike KotOR, was intentionally written for the purpose of a subsequent sequel. It's open-ended by design, not by omission or neglect. So your position is founded on a completely flawed assumption.
Fair enough. I would argue, but you facts on LA and the time constraints make anything I would say fall in upon itself.

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Originally Posted by Jediphile
LA will realise the world does not revolve around them? Sure... If they can see the sky for all the flying pigs...
Agreed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Seriously, there is no way I can imagine that this agreement between LA and Bioware came about AFTER Bioware was bought by EA. I can ONLY imagine it if the deal was struck (and signed) before EA bought Bioware and then kept secret. Now, you're not going to hear either side admit to this - at least for a long time - because it will benefit neither. But no matter how you look at it, this deal will now mean that LA's deal with Bioware will make money for EA, which means it cuts into LA's profits. And there is no way LA is okay with that IMHO, because no matter how well the game(s) do(es), LA will always be thinking, "gee, we could have made even more money," because that's what business is like. It's not personal, it's just business.
Those thoughts crossed my mind more than once, and I would not be suprised in the least if you were proven right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
We finally agree on something...
The point of the first half of my post was mainly just to rant, so I wasn't expecting a single person to agree with me. In fact, I had the feeling I was very off in a few areas but instead of looking it up I left it for someone like you to rip it apart and tell me what about the arguement was wrong.

In all honesty, I should have ranted, deleted the first half of my post, and just kept the second half but, oh well. You did a fine job showing me my errors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
You know, I tend to agree with that... Because the only alternative for LA is to acknowledge that they butchered TSL themselves, and so that it could happen with any game where they pushed the deadline.
I couldn't agree more now.

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Originally Posted by Jediphile
Sophistry. If there was proof, discussion and speculation would be moot and so not take place.
Very true, it does ruin the point doesn't it. Just seems silly to flip out and make 4 threads for every rumor that pops up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Au contraire. If it now turns out not to be KotOR in any way, then I'll actually be overjoyed. I'm "screaming in agony" exactly because I'm not getting my hopes up but preparing for the worst. To quote Garak, "I alway hope for the best. Experience - unfortunately - has taught me to expect the worst."
True, and aftering looking through this I can understand why.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
I think so, and I have long since explained why and how. But it does depend on your perspective, of course. If you think that Revan and/or exile are gods than will defeat any enemy and overcome any obstacle ever, then you'll naturally be disappointed in any event, because that is never true of ANY character in ANY plot. If TSL made any mistake, then it was in how it failed to deflate the exaggerated view some people have of Revan and even adding to it IMHO.
Indeed, many of the dialog on Revan made him/her out to be some Anakin copy. Pretty much stuck a knife in Revan's fanbase and let more of the crazed fans ooz in. And yes, any story that simply has you as a God isn't all that deep, thats why Kotor is unique from Star Wars: The good guy does not always win in them if you choose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Being on a "KotOR high" seems unlikely given how much time has passed since the last installment. People are not on a high - they're just annoyed that they've been waiting for years and there STILL is no KotOR3 on the horizon or even news of it. If LA had said that KotOR games were dead, then it would be easier, because then we could at least mourn their demise and reminisce about the games and how great they were. As it is we're all in Limbo and stuck there...
Yes, that would indeed be a better was of putting it. The majority of the blame for the mass of useless posts can be placed onto the more crazed part of the community, but as you said... discussion is discussion.

Quote:
Unfortunately, it's pretty much canon that Exile is female, so if anyone ever writes a tie-in novel, it's going to contain that horrendous nightmare of a love interest. Fortunately, we can probably dodge it in most other mediums.
Besides, we cannot seem to have a KOTOR thread without at least one debate with two or more people debating on what gender exile/revan was. Those, above all else, are erking me the most. The gender's were placed as "canon" because they needed a gender to write in the Star Wars books and wiki articles. Get over it, accept it, and move on with your Star Wars lives.
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Old 11-02-2007, 04:31 AM   #100
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It may be a star wars MMORPG that bioware is going to make, but who ever said it will be a Knights of the Old Republic MMORPG? It could be a Clones Wars MMORPG or a future Yuuzhang Vong MMORPG, or even in the Older Republic at the time with Exar Kun(before kotor 1)

Personally I don't care, just as long as there is an star wars MMORPG alternative to Star Wars Galaxies
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Old 11-02-2007, 10:50 AM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Char Ell
Well, the lucasartsbioware.com domain was registered on Oct. 11, the same day that EA announced they were purchasing BioWare and Pandemic Studios. That says to me that the details of how the joint BioWare/LucasArts project would be handled had been worked out during the acquisition process. I think it's likely this deal between LA and BioWare was reached some time ago and there was a lot of behind-the-scenes activity to work out how the joint BioWare/LA project was going to be handled with EA entering the picture.

The only hiccup, I think, is how EA mentioned that the MMORPG was one of the reasons they wanted to buy Bioware. The problem is, they wouldn't own the IP, since even if jointly developed, Lucasarts probably would retain control of it. I would find it strange that EA would be so excited about that.


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Originally Posted by Linky Triforce
a future Yuuzhang Vong MMORPG
That is of course impossible. Yuuzhan Vong suck. I know that opinion is not truth and I constantly say so, but unfortunately, this is cold hard fact.


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Old 11-02-2007, 12:35 PM   #102
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Actually I'd think Legacy era would be more realistic than Yuuzan Vong invasion era.
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Old 11-02-2007, 01:25 PM   #103
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agreed, a lot of good stories and characters were written despite the ridiculous Vong, but the Legacy era, Especially the 130 bby onwards stuff, is a Good thing...On a side note..KotOR era rules all!!


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Old 11-02-2007, 04:30 PM   #104
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I too agree about that. I read some stuff about Legacy and although some things made me cringe a little, I also think that as far as post-Star Wars movies EU goes, it's the second best that's been made.

The best was anything related to Thrawn


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Old 11-02-2007, 06:57 PM   #105
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Unfortunately there's not too much about the Legacy Era out yet, it would involve coming up with a lot of stuff...And I also don't like it much as it makes anything that happens before that kinda obsolete (like Dark Empire did *cringes* even though I like Boba not being dead and all, the whole Luke going DS then LS again story was stupid, as was Palpy's resurrection!)



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Old 11-02-2007, 09:52 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tk102
It'd be a safe bet for easy money.
I agree that it would be easy money. However have we ever known BioWare to take a project just because it was easy money? I'm not aware of any such examples. If it was easy money they wanted then why did they turn down KotOR 2? I think because they wanted to be able to have full freedom to create their own stories and not have to share revenues with licensors.

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Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
The only hiccup, I think, is how EA mentioned that the MMORPG was one of the reasons they wanted to buy Bioware. The problem is, they wouldn't own the IP, since even if jointly developed, Lucasarts probably would retain control of it. I would find it strange that EA would be so excited about that.
Yes, that does seem kind of strange but according to the BioWare and Pandemic Studios profiles posted on EA's investor website the BioWare MMORPG is not an owned IP so it stands to reason that it's licensed and EA was of course fully aware of that when they made the decision to purchase the two game developers.


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Old 11-02-2007, 10:23 PM   #107
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I agree with pretty much all of Char Ell's points. I can't see a company like BioWare taking a project for easy money. BioWare turning down TSL is one great example of this as well as the fact that they've made this partnership. For something as traditional as a SPRPG I don't think it would be necessary.

Plus, who knows, maybe that primotech article wasn't just a rumor?


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Old 11-03-2007, 01:47 AM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Char Ell
Yes, that does seem kind of strange but according to the BioWare and Pandemic Studios profiles posted on EA's investor website the BioWare MMORPG is not an owned IP so it stands to reason that it's licensed and EA was of course fully aware of that when they made the decision to purchase the two game developers.
I guess my gun ran out of ammo. Although the doubt in my mind probably stems from my wishes of a KotOR 3 SPRPG being made... the evidence seems mostly against it.

I'm a big WoW fan and have been playing for quite some time. The problem is not having time or money for two MMORPGs and it would tear me apart to have to choose.

Then, although my hopes and reasonings are for an MMORPG that would not take the place of KotOR3, there's always that lingering fear in my mind. I simply wouldn't enjoy a sequel that changes things so radically from a gameplay perspective. I guess I'm just rambling on now.


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Old 11-03-2007, 06:16 AM   #109
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lukeiamyourdad: I don't see that creating an MMORPG eliminates them later releasing a single player campaign game sequel to the series already in existence. I think that there will come a point where Blizzard will make a WC4, once WoW has played out all it can, and don't see any reason why if the talk of a KOTOR MMO is for real, it would mean any more than a loooong delay, rather than LA saying it would never happen.

LA did say that they intended to focus on 3 - 4 games a year, did they not? Frustrating as it will be if they insist on this MMO playing itself out first (if it exists), I don't think they're mutually exclusive. On the plus sides LA is bigger than Blizzard and since it seems they're contracting out their MMO, it would leave them free to find another developer, like obsidian for K3. So I don't think that they would only be able to have 1 major thing on their plate, and have to have everything else fall by the wayside the way blizzard has.

I mean they could be looking at a KOTOR MMO to do their advertising for a KOTOR 3 normal game, rather than replacing it.
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Old 11-03-2007, 10:30 AM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Moeller
Plus, who knows, maybe that primotech article wasn't just a rumor?
It does make one wonder, doesn't it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
I guess my gun ran out of ammo. Although the doubt in my mind probably stems from my wishes of a KotOR 3 SPRPG being made... the evidence seems mostly against it.
Well, I'm not real confident it's a KotOR MMORPG and I too would prefer a KotOR 3 SPRPG. It does appear that a KotOR MMORPG is the strongest possibility but of course that is far from certain. At this point I feel strongly that BioWare's MMORPG will be based in the SW universe.

One thought that keeps nagging at me though is the two SW TV series that are in the works. I consider it a given that LucasArts will come out with games in support of these TV shows. What if this "ground-breaking interactive entertainment product" turns out to be an MMORPG that ties into one of the TV shows somehow? That seems quite ground-breaking to me. IMO the 3D animated one would work best since it's set during the Clone Wars time period and last I heard GL wants to launch that series next fall. In-game events could be set up around events that occur in the TV show but in a MMORPG environment it would be more interactive, like there is a battle on some planet in the TV show and the MMORPG has quests that tie into that and your character would be involved in the same battle being depicted on the TV show but have a parallel storyline. Crazy enough idea, eh? But the possibility that this joint BioWare-LucasArts project could have something to do with one of the TV shows is one that I can't logically eliminate so it's still out there for me.

1UP has posted an article titled The Evidence for BioWare's Star Wars MMO.

One interesting thing I just learned was that Microsoft had offered to buy BioWare at some point prior to March of this year. I totally missed that interesting tidbit of info. If I would have known that then I wouldn't have been so surprised by the deal with EA.
Quote:
That said, Kim admitted that Microsoft tried to buy the studio: "Well, I tried, but& not everybody wants to be bought, Elevation owns BioWare," Kim said.
Source: 1UP.com


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Old 11-03-2007, 12:31 PM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Char Ell
1UP has posted an article titled The Evidence for BioWare's Star Wars MMO.
Well, let's consider it...

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1up
Obviously, BioWare has already shown LucasArts they have a deep respect for Star Wars and ability to create compelling new characters and stories within that universe -- hello, Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic.
This argument, of course, COMPLETELY ignores a fairly significant point that have long, long since been mentioned on these (and other) boards, which is that a major problem with Galaxies is not that it's badly written, but that everybody insists on playing Jedi in any Star Wars MMORPG. Getting Bioware to write a new MMORPG is not going to magically make that problem disappear, because it's related to the game type.

KotOR works in no small part because it's a single-player experience. I mean, does anyone here think it would have been a good idea to do KotOR as a MMORPG, where every single active player turns out to be an amnesic former Sith Lord looking for either redemption or revenge [insert player choice here]?!?

Let's face it - the strength of that writing is founded squarely on the single-player approach, and there is no way you can do the same in an MMORPG, because you cannot dictate the player's entire past and in such detail as is done in KotOR. There IS something to be said for non-interactive entertainment, and KotOR uses it for maximum effect - you don't get to decide whether you're Revan or not, and you don't get to define your background or how the story unfolds - you just get to decide how you feel about it.

So to take the strength of writing in KotOR and use that as a basis for saying that Bioware would do a better Star Wars MMORPG than Sony...

Well, let's just say I don't find the argument particularly compelling or convincing...

There is no way that the "jedi-problem" can be overcome. If jedi exist in the MMORPG, then people will play them over any and all other characters. It's just that simple.

So I think there is only one way that a Star Wars MMORPG can ever work, and that's to take away the jedi or at least prevent any possibility of players playing them. The obvious choice for that would be to set the action during the age of the Empire in the original trilogy or just before it.

Hmmm... Is it just me or does that seem to fit with LA's upcoming live-action tv-series?

EDIT: Oh, silly me. 1up could be absolutely correct, of course, that this is about a Lucasarts IP. That does not need to mean that it's Star Wars, though. Now, I'd agree that they are unlikely to revive ancient IPs such as Monkey Island or Zak McCracken (unfortunately...), but there IS a fairly huge other LA-IP that's been on the horizon for a long time and which is coming out in may 2008


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Old 11-03-2007, 12:37 PM   #112
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I'd agree that sounds like some sort of Star Wars MMO. But I agree with Jediphile that makes a specifically KOTOR MMO seem less likely.
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Old 11-03-2007, 02:51 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
This argument, of course, COMPLETELY ignores a fairly significant point that have long, long since been mentioned on these (and other) boards, which is that a major problem with Galaxies is not that it's badly written, but that everybody insists on playing Jedi in any Star Wars MMORPG. Getting Bioware to write a new MMORPG is not going to magically make that problem disappear, because it's related to the game type.
I mentioned this problem several times regarding to a KotOR 3 MMORPG. In this sense, you are 100% correct. However, if the game was set in the Mandalorian Wars or before, there is nothing that stops the number of Jedi from being really high. Galaxies could not possibly have so many Jedi without killing the setting. The KotOR universe on the other hand, can.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
KotOR works in no small part because it's a single-player experience. I mean, does anyone here think it would have been a good idea to do KotOR as a MMORPG, where every single active player turns out to be an amnesic former Sith Lord looking for either redemption or revenge [insert player choice here]?!?
Twisted logic. In MMOs, you do not start as former super-powerful beings. You're just an above average adventurer. The background story is adapted and up to every single player to choose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Let's face it - the strength of that writing is founded squarely on the single-player approach, and there is no way you can do the same in an MMORPG, because you cannot dictate the player's entire past and in such detail as is done in KotOR. There IS something to be said for non-interactive entertainment, and KotOR uses it for maximum effect - you don't get to decide whether you're Revan or not, and you don't get to define your background or how the story unfolds - you just get to decide how you feel about it.
Of course you can't do the same. That's because they're not the same. You cannot apply SPRPG logic to an MMORPG.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
So to take the strength of writing in KotOR and use that as a basis for saying that Bioware would do a better Star Wars MMORPG than Sony...

Well, let's just say I don't find the argument particularly compelling or convincing...
Yes, writing can be stronger then SOE's, the morons did recycle HK-47 remember? Not very original.

Bioware can also use better gameplay mechanics adapted from the post-WoW world, meaning more content, polish and lesser grinding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
There is no way that the "jedi-problem" can be overcome. If jedi exist in the MMORPG, then people will play them over any and all other characters. It's just that simple.

So I think there is only one way that a Star Wars MMORPG can ever work, and that's to take away the jedi or at least prevent any possibility of players playing them. The obvious choice for that would be to set the action during the age of the Empire in the original trilogy or just before it.
Bull. Make everyone a Jedi or Force user and put them into a timeline that where that would make sense. The problem has been solved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Hmmm... Is it just me or does that seem to fit with LA's upcoming live-action tv-series?

EDIT: Oh, silly me. 1up could be absolutely correct, of course, that this is about a Lucasarts IP. That does not need to mean that it's Star Wars, though. Now, I'd agree that they are unlikely to revive ancient IPs such as Monkey Island or Zak McCracken (unfortunately...), but there IS a fairly huge other LA-IP that's been on the horizon for a long time and which is coming out in may 2008
Really, an Indiana Jones RPG? But an MMO is unlikely?


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Old 11-03-2007, 05:31 PM   #114
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I'm not playing a KOTOR MMO unfortunately - I have a girlfriend.



... lol

MMORPGs are not for me. I'll wait for KOTOR III thanks.

Please don't use that type of derogetory term when stating your opinion. It has no place on these forums, thank you. LT

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Old 11-03-2007, 05:51 PM   #115
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Somebody hadn't followed the beginning of SWG. Perhaps if they had played before the NGE they would know that it was possible to give everyone the option to become a jedi. Quite a few people in the SWG community refuse to play as Jedi. I was one of them. I played as a smuggler. I had no desire to be a jedi. Part of the failing was that in the era(between ANH and ESB) there were supposed to be severely limited numbers of jedi. Seeing 50% of the population playing jedi was very outlandish for there supposedly being so few jedi that Luke would be the almost last hope for the jedi(wait there is another)... HOWEVER in the Old republic, it is possible to allow more people to be jedi(though I hope they make it as difficult to achieve as the original SWG(pre-CU)).
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Old 11-03-2007, 06:02 PM   #116
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If it is an MMO and If it were the case that everyone wanted to be Jedi or Sith, it would make more sense for it to happen around 2000-1000 BBY, as at that point there were armies of Jedi and Sith at War with each other...
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/New_Sith_Wars


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Old 11-03-2007, 06:19 PM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
I mentioned this problem several times regarding to a KotOR 3 MMORPG. In this sense, you are 100% correct. However, if the game was set in the Mandalorian Wars or before, there is nothing that stops the number of Jedi from being really high. Galaxies could not possibly have so many Jedi without killing the setting. The KotOR universe on the other hand, can.
Except...

1. The setting is fixed. You cannot be a jedi fighting in the war without being exiled by the jedi order, nor can you play a major character, since the leaders are Revan and Malak.

2. All players will still be only jedi, and so that problem persists.

3. The plot itself is fixed and cannot deviate from the historic events as established by the KotOR games or comic books, making for a setting where nothing any player does can alter or evolve the setting (= boring). This means no room for plot development or growth of character. You can grow the stats and nothing more (also = boring).

4. Your character can have no future, since we already know virtually any and all jedi and sith are dead within a decade or so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Twisted logic. In MMOs, you do not start as former super-powerful beings. You're just an above average adventurer. The background story is adapted and up to every single player to choose.
Which is precisely why the alleged strength of KotOR as written by Bioware that 1up points to cannot take place in an MMORPG, since you cannot have such backgrounds for the playable characters. Actually more like really simple logic. Perhaps even very simple conclusions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Of course you can't do the same. That's because they're not the same. You cannot apply SPRPG logic to an MMORPG.
My point exactly. That's why 1up's take on the situation is questionable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Yes, writing can be stronger then SOE's, the morons did recycle HK-47 remember? Not very original.
It might be stronger, but as you say yourself, you cannot apply SPRPG to an MMORPG. Consequently, the plot cannot be as deep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Bioware can also use better gameplay mechanics adapted from the post-WoW world, meaning more content, polish and lesser grinding.
Which all means nothing to me. KotOR games are good for the depth of the plots. They are like interactive novels, where you can affect bits and pieces, but not the larger picture. This means less freedom to play, but also potential for stronger plots with deeper and more complex characters. You cannot have that in an MMORPG, where total freedom to explore is essential.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Bull. Make everyone a Jedi or Force user and put them into a timeline that where that would make sense. The problem has been solved.
Actually, "killed" would be the appropriate term. You're basically "solving" the problem by "removing" all non-jedi from the setting...

Since that has a certain "master race"-sort of quality to it, you'll forgive me if I do not find the idea particularly compelling or palatable... In fact, I might use the same term you did in reference to that suggestion

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Really, an Indiana Jones RPG? But an MMO is unlikely?
Perhaps. But it's still better than a KotOR MMORPG.


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Old 11-03-2007, 06:36 PM   #118
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Don't cast MMO players as fat girlfriendless guys living in their mom's basement. I know more MMO players with good jobs a wife and kids than I do who fit the stereotype. In fact I know more console gamers who fit that stereotype(and no, I'm not saying console gamers fit the stereotype, just pointing out that stereotyping is a bad idea).

If it is an MMO, they can spend more time on the development of your character. They can spend more time on developing your connection to the Force. They don't have to slap months/years of training into a cutscene. They can go more in depth into a story that doesn't have to fit on a single dvd. They can have a great deal of content stored on their servers, that just flat out wouldn't fit on a DVD.

Of course so far here are the facts.
Bioware is developing their own MMO.
It is their first venture into this.
Lucasarts and Bioware have entered into an agreement to develop an interactive experience.
Lucasarts largest IP is Star Wars, but it is not their ONLY IP
Bioware's MMO is NOT an owned IP.
MMO's in general make more money per year than SP games.
Bioware has stated explicitly that they are NOT making KotOR 3.

Things we do not know, but are rumored to be true:
Whether the IP for Bioware's MMO is owned by Lucasarts.
Whether that IP is Star Wars
Whether the setting is in the Old Republic.

Edit: The thing that bugs me is the statement:
You can't change a persistent world in an MMO.
False. It just appears to you that it is not possible. However different factions can control planets. For instance: In the Koonda battle, you change the faction in power. You should be able to reverse that, if the two main characters on opposing sides are not killed. If you cause them to flee, you affect power on that planet. Mercenaries control it one day, a group of adventurers come by and liberate Koonda. Koonda is now free again. You can get several added quests for either Mercs or Adare. Jedi related quests could open up for Adare, Sith related could open up for Mercs. Heck you could open up some special jedi quests for when the Mercs are in power. Say liberate Koonda quests. These could be undone by Sith types who want the Jedi out when Adare is in power. This is just ONE idea. Of course we could use this type of example for any number of places affected by the first or second KotOR games. The only difference is whether it is permanent or reversable.

Last edited by RedHawke; 11-04-2007 at 05:34 PM. Reason: Combining double post...
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Old 11-03-2007, 09:24 PM   #119
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Note: You shouldn't doublepost. It's not allowed here. I suggest you simply edit your last post instead. That's what I do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommycat
Don't cast MMO players as fat girlfriendless guys living in their mom's basement. I know more MMO players with good jobs a wife and kids than I do who fit the stereotype. In fact I know more console gamers who fit that stereotype(and no, I'm not saying console gamers fit the stereotype, just pointing out that stereotyping is a bad idea).
Not sure who you're addressing here, but just in case it's me, let me put it this way.

Yes, stereotyping is bad. Then again, I don't believe I've in any painted any MMO player like that. If people like MMOs, then fine. But I don't. And given how frequently I have to read people talking how crap TSL is, how much Nihilus sucks, and how much Obsidian ruined KotOR - all statements that I happen to feel quite different about - I don't feel particularly compelled to be shy with my own opinion on the matter. I can respect that people have a different opinion, but it does come at the price that people respect mine. Suffice it to say that I don't always feel it's the case, in which case I'm not going to bother explaining why I don't like MMORPGs. If people are not polite, then why bother? It's not as if my argument will change anyone's opinion... Indeed, bitter experience has taught me that blatant flamebait is often the only reward for that.

If people like MMOs and consolegames, fair enough. But I don't, and I'm not going to apologize for it either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommycat
If it is an MMO, they can spend more time on the development of your character. They can spend more time on developing your connection to the Force. They don't have to slap months/years of training into a cutscene. They can go more in depth into a story that doesn't have to fit on a single dvd. They can have a great deal of content stored on their servers, that just flat out wouldn't fit on a DVD.
If you're playing a pure stats-building exercise, sure. Frankly I can't be bothered, though. If I want that, then I play tabletop RPGs, which are still far more interesting, because that at least has a GM dedicated to the specific characters of our game rather than the "one size fit all"-programming of an MMORPG. Basically an MMORPG has no choice but to have a plot and execution that is complete open and simple, so that it can allow for any and all characters. But doing that also means you cannot do certain things, because the developer can assume or dictate nothing about the player's character. I'm still waiting for the time when we have neural networds acting as GMs in MMORPGs. Now, when that happens, then I'll likely be playing, because it'll be a unique experience focusing exclusively on my character every time. That cannot happen now, though.

SPRPGs are more like interactive novels. That allows for drama and depth of characters in addition to the fights. In MMORPGs you tend to have only the latter. For example, in an MMORPG, the exile would rock as a character, because he has unique powers. How are you going to convey the burden of being a hole in the force and the personal loss without the cutscenes, lengthy dialogues, etc.? Diablo II was oozing with atmosphere, yet it was still just hack 'n slash. And I hate it when a swarm of insects drop a suit of fullplate armor upon death...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommycat
The thing that bugs me is the statement:
You can't change a persistent world in an MMO.
False. It just appears to you that it is not possible. However different factions can control planets. For instance: In the Koonda battle, you change the faction in power. You should be able to reverse that, if the two main characters on opposing sides are not killed. If you cause them to flee, you affect power on that planet. Mercenaries control it one day, a group of adventurers come by and liberate Koonda. Koonda is now free again. You can get several added quests for either Mercs or Adare. Jedi related quests could open up for Adare, Sith related could open up for Mercs. Heck you could open up some special jedi quests for when the Mercs are in power. Say liberate Koonda quests. These could be undone by Sith types who want the Jedi out when Adare is in power. This is just ONE idea. Of course we could use this type of example for any number of places affected by the first or second KotOR games. The only difference is whether it is permanent or reversable.
So, if I understand you correctly:

1. This area is constantly contested (= no persistent change, since the enemy could take over tomorrow)

2. Daily battles (how long before that becomes old hat? Sounds fairly boring to me...)

3. Constant escalation (mercenaries, then settlers, then jedi, then sith, then... Sure makes me wonder how big the jedi order and the sith armies would have to be keep that up in the long run, and just for one fairly minor planet too. Talk about suspense of disbelief... or even jumping the shark...)


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Last edited by Jediphile; 11-03-2007 at 09:43 PM.
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Old 11-03-2007, 10:32 PM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Note: You shouldn't doublepost. It's not allowed here. I suggest you simply edit your last post instead. That's what I do.
Meh it was a response to posts that came after I started mine, and I was a bit lazy, My bad.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Not sure who you're addressing here, but just in case it's me, let me put it this way.

Yes, stereotyping is bad. Then again, I don't believe I've in any painted any MMO player like that. If people like MMOs, then fine. But I don't. And given how frequently I have to read people talking how crap TSL is, how much Nihilus sucks, and how much Obsidian ruined KotOR - all statements that I happen to feel quite different about - I don't feel particularly compelled to be shy with my own opinion on the matter. I can respect that people have a different opinion, but it does come at the price that people respect mine. Suffice it to say that I don't always feel it's the case, in which case I'm not going to bother explaining why I don't like MMORPGs. If people are not polite, then why bother? It's not as if my argument will change anyone's opinion... Indeed, bitter experience has taught me that blatant flamebait is often the only reward for that.

If people like MMOs and consolegames, fair enough. But I don't, and I'm not going to apologize for it either.
Actually this was not directed at you, it was directed at the comment from Henz, that he doesn't do MMO's because he has a girlfriend. But it was also general enough that we should respect eachother's preferences PERIOD. Without the attacks and stereotypes. If he had said it and instead said that he doesn't play MMO's because he isn't a retard it would be just as insulting. I just prefer not to have people using a stereotype to make their point. YOU on the other hand provide REASONS you would rather not have an MMO that stem from personal preference and logical background, so that comment was not directed at you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
If you're playing a pure stats-building exercise, sure. Frankly I can't be bothered, though. If I want that, then I play tabletop RPGs, which are still far more interesting, because that at least has a GM dedicated to the specific characters of our game rather than the "one size fit all"-programming of an MMORPG. SPRPGs are more like interactive novels. That allows for drama and depth of characters in addition to the fights. In MMORPGs you tend to have only the latter. For example, in an MMORPG, the exile would rock as a character, because he has unique powers. How are you going to convey the burden of being a hole in the force and the personal loss without the cutscenes, lengthy dialogues, etc.? Diablo II was oozing with atmosphere, yet it was still just hack 'n slash. And I hate it when a swarm of insects drop a suit of fullplate armor upon death...
I have to disagree(you knew I would though, haha). An MMO could very well have no stat building at all, but in fact could be finding pieces of a larger puzzle. The fate of Revan for instance. You may find clues to his where-abouts through the entire galaxy. It could be in attempting to discover the path the exile took as she(canonically the Exile is a female.... Yeah I hate that too... Revan would have made more sense as a woman than the Exile) left Machor V. You make choices that lead you more light/dark. You can even learn new techniques from random Jedi/Sith. Heck you could even have it to where you can make Force "Recipes" as I like to think of them(though I won't go into too much detail on it unless you want to know). Loot tables can be fixed so that the right animal drops the right item. If you kill a bug, it could drop, "Insect Exoskeleton" which may be used by a crafter to make "Insect Exoskeleton Armor" so the issue of what creature drops what is merely a tweak to the loot table. Of course any armor that a Cannok drops, I would have to wonder about it's effectiveness haha.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
So, if I understand you correctly:
Good luck, I hardly understand myself at times... I can tend to ramble on some times.. I mean Jolee might have told ME to shut up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
1. This area is constantly contested (= no persistent change, since the enemy could take over tomorrow)
Yes, and no. It could be semi-persistent. It may be that you help the Mercs take control of Khoonda, but then if you have a change of heart you can free the people you enslaved before(or like Vader, enslave the people you freed). Of course they could also make it so that after the area has been secured the former leader would go into hiding(week or more until that person shows up again and begins recruiting for the Free Khoonda Alliance). Nothing says you would have to have it constantly open for regime change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
2. Daily battles (how long before that becomes old hat? Sounds fairly boring to me...)
Nah It could be a server event. Monthly/bimonthly/semiannual event that changes the landscape for a while. You're over simplifying it. Keep in mind that in an MMO it doesn't have to be free it right now. It could be perform some tasks for people to earn the trust of the Free Khoonda Alliance, then when the time is right join the battle to free Khoonda.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
3. Constant escalation (mercenaries, then settlers, then jedi, then sith, then... Sure makes me wonder how big the jedi order and the sith armies would have to be keep that up in the long run, and just for one fairly minor planet too. Talk about suspense of disbelief... or even jumping the shark...)
Again a Massive oversimplification, and taking the battle of Khoonda way too far. For instance: There's a Jedi enclave there. This means the Jedi are there(well were before somebody felt it would be a good place to leave an arsenal of exploding weapons). When the people are free, and jedi are welcome, you get people who react favorably to jedi and light side force users. When the Mercs and Sith are in power, you get people who fear Jorce users. Though to be honest I thought they placed too much emphasis on Dantooine in the two games to begin with. BUT it was used as an example. It could be done as a Galactic campaign. Turn the planets to Sith rule and the Sith control the galaxy. Free the planets and the sith lose power. I could very easily have used the Talia/Vaklu Czerka/Ithorians Cerka/Wookies Czerka/Sandpeople though those would be only small examples(well maybe not Onderon). Escalations occur through the galaxy. Small planets turning to the will of the Sith... then larger ones, then next thing you know planet cities... But at any rate, we're talking about a game that we have no idea about, and I'm brainstorming ideas. It's easy for me to come up with them, but whether Bioware implements them is out of my control(that is if bioware is even working on the game we're thinking of, Heck they may even be making KotORIII as a SP game and not KotOR the MMO in conjunction with LA and the MMO is Chickenrun).
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