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Old 11-05-2007, 01:57 AM   #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Besides, my question remains...

Why should this MMORPG be set in the KotOR era, when it will both alienate a portion of the fanbase while also not fitting with the on-going plot of the previous games?
Better make that question more main - Why should there be MMORPG in the Star Wars universe? I cannot think of a time period of the Star Wars history that will be suitable for a MMORPG game. It's just that they cannot make a good MMORPG for Star Wars, otherwise if they do, it will probably be non-canon.

Imagine you're playing KotOR MMO... You're facing... Revan, for example, and you battle... And in the same time some n00b is whispering you: "hey i sell blaster pistol 500 creds" or something...

Edit: If LA/Bio will try to suprise us with a MMORPG from Star Wars KotOR era, they will probably "invent" new factions because as I read from previous posts, not many Jedi/Sith are left in Post-TSL era. They will make a new faction like they did "Zann Consortium" in SW: EAW: FOC.

Last edited by teodesetkata; 11-05-2007 at 02:17 AM.
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Old 11-05-2007, 03:11 AM   #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Nor have I ever said so. But it's not like I'm the only person in existence who like the KotOR games but don't want to play the KotOR MMORPG, so doing that WILL mean alienating a certain part of the KotOR community. Not all, no, and frankly I'm not sure how many, but I've scarcely been the only one here voicing that position.
Yeah, but I doubt LA is going to read your post and say "Looks like we have made some people angry... we should stop now." Yes, they will alienate you. Thats what game production is all about: Aiming for a particular audience and not caring much about the rest since they know it would be foolhearty to try and win them over. It is also about making a game that will in turn make them the most money from their target audience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Indeed, I might equally spin it the other way and ask why you suggest that doing KotOR MMORPG won't alienate anyone and will be accepted by all when there is clear indications that is not the case.
Maybe one day humanity will create a game that will make all people happy...

You cannot make everybody happy. You just happen to fit in with the group of people that do not like the idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Why should this MMORPG be set in the KotOR era, when it will both alienate a portion of the fanbase while also not fitting with the on-going plot of the previous games?
Again, you cannot please everyone. Sure, set it in the future. You are alienating another group of people. Set it further in the past... yet again alienating. I hate to say it, but this is not about you. At all. All I am getting from your posts is that you want it your way, or you will abandon all hope and possibly throw a fit. Please, correct me if I am reading your posts wrong.

Do you know the plot after TSL? Do you know everything that happens far and in-between? No, and you cannot pretend you do. There is plenty of room for possible plot. You simply deny that one can exist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
TSL needs a spiritual sequel. It has an open ending begging for closure. Star Wars MMORPG, on the other hand, has no need of KotOR whatsoever, since this new game is a blank canvas. Just go anywhere from 100 to, say, 3000 years after TSL, and the deves can do pretty much whatever they want. Why is that not an option?
There is nobody saying that a sequel wont be made. It is unlikely, but it is possible. I doubt the actual sequel will ever be made partly because it is Obsidian's story, and only they know where the story was supposed to go. Any sequel released by anybody else will be by a different group with different veiws, as I see it highly unlikely that LA will ask help from Obsidian ever again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
In short, doing the MMORPG as part of the KotOR series will mean the KotOR games are dead to me, whereas doing the MMORPG in another time period means that I can at least still be considered a potential customer.

Now, which is better for LA in the long run?
So, it will be dead to you. Do you honestly, -honestly- think you not getting the game will cause any major problems for the MMO? Do you really think you are that important? An MMO can bring in millions a month, and you would be $15 of those millions. Sure, it would be disapointing to see some people leave the Kotor fanbase but at the same time a lot of new people would join and many existing fans would most likely still play the game, also adding the new sales of Kotor 1 and TSL for people catching up to the storyline.

So, which is better? Hmmm... I'm going to have to go with losing you as a customer to pull in a larger fan-base and create a cash-cow. Again, this is not about you. They make an MMO in another time block, LA will lose and gain fans. That is how the gaming industry works.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
LA would be foolish to disregard the awesome plot potential KotOR3 has as a SPRPG. The plot, the characters, the dialogue choices... can you have all that awesome stuff that made K1 & K2 awesome in a MMORPG? From what I've heard, you can't, so just why exactly would someone want to fix something that ain't broke?
Because making an MMO has potential for much, much more money? Yes, it will be an entirely different game. So was World of Warcraft to the Warcraft games. Now Blizzard pulls in over 135 million a month in fees. They lost some fans from the original Warcraft games, but gained over 9 million players. I'd say thats a pretty good trade-off.

Yes, a SPRPG would be nice, but TSL's writers and holders of the storyline are in Obsidian. As I said, any sequel made by anybody else would be of different veiws and opinion on where the story should go. Not a bad thing if Bioware were to get ahold of it, but I doubt LA will go running back to Obsidian anytime soon for Kotor 3. It is possible, though. And nobody says that a Kotor 3 is never going to be made.

This, again, is assuming that this MMO is Star Wars and Kotor related.

And who knows. Maybe the MMO will bomb and they will decide to go along with a Kotor 3 SPRPG when the riots begin to grow in number.
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Old 11-05-2007, 03:18 AM   #163
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True Star Wars fans will not only care about the MMO's gameplay, but they care about the storyline, too. That's why I think SPRPG will be better.
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Old 11-05-2007, 03:25 AM   #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teodesetkata
True Star Wars fans will not only care about the MMO's gameplay, but they care about the storyline, too. That's why I think SPRPG will be better.
True Star Wars fans should be used to LA giving them poorly written dialog and sloppy stories (AKA Episode 1, 2, and 3, and most of the Star Wars Universe).
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Old 11-05-2007, 03:52 AM   #165
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Lets face it, LA may have learned from the failure of SWG. And with solid gameplay and an engaging story, KotOR the MMO could destroy the financial intake SWG has. Of course that depends on IF that is what they are working on. Keep in mind that SWG STILL brings in more than KotOR even with the deminished subs. Of course that all depends on whether the rumors are true. Which, as I don't work for either Bioware Austin, nor LucasArts, I have no way of judging the validity of the rumors. It could very easily be Pirates of the Caribean the MMO, and KotOR 3 the SPRPG.
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Old 11-05-2007, 04:24 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by True_Avery
True Star Wars fans should be used to LA giving them poorly written dialog and sloppy stories (AKA Episode 1, 2, and 3, and most of the Star Wars Universe).
I don't think SW EP 1, 2, 3 were sloppy. I think they were all right. For me the best story was that from SW KotOR 1, and I hope that BioWare will make SW KotOR 3 like SW KotOR 1.
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Old 11-05-2007, 05:33 AM   #167
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I am an active member of the Bioware forums, and developers have been talking about their cool Bioware MMORPG for nearly a year.

1. It would be implausible if their MMORPG were actually based on a LA based IP- simply because they were enthusiastic about it for so long as something they have developed which in fact dealt with a lot of the problems with the traditional game play in MMORPGs. It was this MMORPG that got EA interested in them in the first place.
2. Given that they mention in the press release that this new property will be jointly written and developed by both LA and BW-it seems even more unlikely that this is their original IP based MMORPG.
3. It would be strange if Bioware developed two MMORPGs at the same time.

I am feel confident that this new jointly developed game is not an MMORPG. It needn't be KOTOR mind you, but it is definitely not an MMORPG IMO.
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Old 11-05-2007, 05:40 AM   #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teodesetkata
True Star Wars fans will not only care about the MMO's gameplay, but they care about the storyline, too. That's why I think SPRPG will be better.
Yes! Only the 144,000 shall be saved!

Isn't this all rather irrelevant?

We. Do. Not. Know. Yet.

Might as well sit back and get on with something else.



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Old 11-05-2007, 05:43 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by True_Avery
Because making an MMO has potential for much, much more money? Yes, it will be an entirely different game. So was World of Warcraft to the Warcraft games. Now Blizzard pulls in over 135 million a month in fees. They lost some fans from the original Warcraft games, but gained over 9 million players. I'd say thats a pretty good trade-off.

.
That is all well and good but why does everyone assume that this announcement means a KOTOR MMORPG?

There are advantages and disadvantages to having a KOTOR MMORPG, and thought I am squarely in the SRPG camp, I can understand *why* LA may want to create an MMORPG - especially using a really juicy franchise.

The fact however is, that the MMORPG currently being created by Bioware, for quite some time in my neighboring town of Austin is something Bioware has hinted at being their own property- plus something that attracted the attention of EA. While making an MMORPG may make great business sense, it would not make business sense for Bioware to make two. It also seems bizzare to suddenly claim that the property they have been speaking of with so much love and pride suddenly becomes "co-written" by someone else.

Look at the current releases: Mass Effect comes out in November, Dragon Age is considered a 2008 release, which leaves them with only one known title in development- Sonic. Apart from that they have the "unnamed" MMORPG which they have been talking about for quite some time.

Is it reasonable to presume that Bioware will make yet another MMORPG for LA? IMO- NO! Is it reasonable to assume Bioware will make another title- console, PC, or whatever for LA? Yes.

It is entirely possible that the MMORPG for LA may well be made by someone else and Bioware has been hired to work on another title.
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Old 11-05-2007, 12:15 PM   #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
Yeah, but I doubt LA is going to read your post and say "Looks like we have made some people angry... we should stop now." Yes, they will alienate you. Thats what game production is all about: Aiming for a particular audience and not caring much about the rest since they know it would be foolhearty to try and win them over. It is also about making a game that will in turn make them the most money from their target audience.
I remember this argument. It's exactly the same argument that the powers that be at Paramount made when they declared it "necessary" to "reinvigorate" the Star Trek franchise by going back in time and doing the Enterprise show, even if it alienated the fanbase, because they needed attract a new audience. Result? The show was cancelled and the franchise crashed and burned...

Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
Maybe one day humanity will create a game that will make all people happy...

You cannot make everybody happy. You just happen to fit in with the group of people that do not like the idea.
So you shouldn't even try because you can't succeed? That's like saying I should respect nobody's opinions here, since somebody is likely to be offended in any event, and so I might just as well not bother to try in the first place...

Well, have it your way, but I disagree, and I will bother to try and not offend anyone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
Again, you cannot please everyone. Sure, set it in the future. You are alienating another group of people. Set it further in the past... yet again alienating. I hate to say it, but this is not about you. At all. All I am getting from your posts is that you want it your way, or you will abandon all hope and possibly throw a fit. Please, correct me if I am reading your posts wrong.
Actually, I'm far more likely to throw a fit over people on the internet who make what I consider arrogant presumptions about what I do or do not think...

Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
Do you know the plot after TSL? Do you know everything that happens far and in-between? No, and you cannot pretend you do. There is plenty of room for possible plot. You simply deny that one can exist.
Nonsense. I have long, long since posted my own speculation for a K3 plot. If I denied that a plot could exist, that would scarcely be the case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
So, it will be dead to you. Do you honestly, -honestly- think you not getting the game will cause any major problems for the MMO? Do you really think you are that important?
Me? Absolutely not. But..

1. I'm not the only one voicing this position.

2. Do you honestly - honestly - think that you liking the idea of the MMORPG will make LA do it, even if lots of fans say they hate the idea?

No, I'm not that important, but then neither are you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
So, which is better? Hmmm... I'm going to have to go with losing you as a customer to pull in a larger fan-base and create a cash-cow. Again, this is not about you. They make an MMO in another time block, LA will lose and gain fans. That is how the gaming industry works.
That's just what Paramount argued for the Enterprise tv-show... Alienating the hardcore fanbase is usually a recipe for disaster, because they are the meat and potatoes of your industry that keeps you alive. Dreaming about tapping into the cashcow market of WoW or its ilk is no doubt tempting to LA, I understand that, but if they step all over their own fanbase in their lust to cash in on that market, then they could easily be putting a noose around their own necks...

Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
Because making an MMO has potential for much, much more money? Yes, it will be an entirely different game. So was World of Warcraft to the Warcraft games. Now Blizzard pulls in over 135 million a month in fees. They lost some fans from the original Warcraft games, but gained over 9 million players. I'd say thats a pretty good trade-off.
No, it's not. Because K3 is a pure excuse to print money - lots and lots of us will buy it. We will be very skeptical about the MMORPG that has the gall to replace it, however, and so the game has to struggle to create its own entirely new fanbase.

As you say, it's a different game. Why then won't you acknowledge that this also says something about the fanbase? The people who like the KotOR games are SPRPG-players. If they were not, they would not have played the games. You're not going to get the fans of EVE Online or WoW to suddenly jump ship simply because you release a MMORPG that says both "Star Wars" and KotOR on it, because it's going to be a non-factor to them. If it's good, then the MMORPG-crowd will play it, but they'll do so whether it says KotOR on the box or not. The reverse is not the case, however - the fanbase of the KotOR games is not going to play it automatically just because it says KotOR on the box, because - as you say - it's a different game, and we'll all know that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
And who knows. Maybe the MMO will bomb and they will decide to go along with a Kotor 3 SPRPG when the riots begin to grow in number.
Unlikely, because the fanbase will then be so alienated and disappointed that KotOR is, essentially, dead. After all, LA refused to reward us for our loyalty to the SPRPGs, so why should we buy any of their products? Loyalty goes both ways. It's a pact. If LA won't honor it, then why should I or anyone else?

I agree completely with The Architect (yeah, I know, what a surprise...): "why exactly would someone want to fix something that ain't broke?"


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Old 11-05-2007, 12:39 PM   #171
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Exactly! It's just one big Force-Wielding Family, with a great big hug and a kiss from me to you...
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Old 11-05-2007, 02:36 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by Jediphile
I remember this argument. It's exactly the same argument that the powers that be at Paramount made when they declared it "necessary" to "reinvigorate" the Star Trek franchise by going back in time and doing the Enterprise show, even if it alienated the fanbase, because they needed attract a new audience. Result? The show was cancelled and the franchise crashed and burned...
For the most part I have agreed with you posts in this thread. However if you want to assign blame for Enterprise crashing and burning. Then look no further to the creators Rick Berman & Brannon Braga. If Paramount had brought in someone like Manny Coto (4th season executive producer) from the beginning. Then I am sure the series would have gone all seven years.

/offtopic


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Old 11-05-2007, 02:58 PM   #173
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Right. Time to throw in my two cents before throwing myself on my (rather huge amount of) homework:

Imo, there's nothing wrong with a Single player RPG. Kotor 1 and 2 worked out that way. Baldurs Gate worked out that way. Etc.

But I'm not against an MMORPG either. Why? Here I go:

1. Galaxies is the fine example of lack of creative vision and strenght. The original Jedi system was incredibly harsh (unknown prequisites, I believe 3 jobs?) had to be obtained and maxed.
n00bs, or...less...experienced and willing players complained. So then you could choose a Jedi from the start, and Random15yearoldidiot1995 walks around flourishing his lightsaber, whilst other players had completed the previous, FAR more intense questline. This is THE worst motivation to keep playing.
2. By doing so, the balance in the game shifted. Let's face it: Jedi should be powerfull. But if 99% of the population of the game is Jedi, there's no challenge and balance.

Right. Not some Ztalkerian suggestion for the possible new MMO:
1. In Kotor, non-Jedi enemies could be a tough opponent for any Jedi. Keep this intact, and even add some...'special' stuff for the non-Jedi classes to keep the advantage over Jedi. Because eventually, a lv 20 Jedi will be stronger then a lv 20 Bounty Hunter.
Give this bounty hunter the...for the hell of it..."Mandalorian Jedi Killer Technique" skill/power, obtained from a Mandalorian NPC who fought against the Jedi. The bounty hunter now receives a +? bonus against Jedi. Now give him a Cortosis blade to spar, and there we go.
2. Give interesting...extra's to non-Jedi characters.
There are so many possibilities. For example: Bounty hunters can fly and buy every ship they want. They can take contracts from the Sith Empire AND the Republic. Give them some cool skills like 'Scoundrel's Luck,' 'Solo shoots first' etc to make them interesting.
3. Restrict Jedi characters. They can only fly the ships of the Jedi Order. They can't enter Sith space, add some Yasilimiri's for powerfull non-Jedi players to get, etc.
4. Make it an...sarcrifice to befome a Jedi. Your previous skills will be undone. As Jedi you start with a clean sheet. That way, Jedi won't be the Jedi class atop of their previous. Also, armor restrictions for Jedi. AND..the bounty on Jedi should be alive. Any non-Jedi player can attack a Jedi. If killed he receives a...'proof'' whatsoever for killing the Jedi, which he/she can deliver for money. If the Jedi however, kills them instead, he is set back in experience, and his name will be known to the authorities until he pays it off. No more Republic mission for him/her then.
5. Class-planets. Mykkr for the rogues (Jedi can't feel the force there, so no over-powered Jedi can come there and slay them). Give the Bounty hunters Nar Shaddaa, etc.

Just some random thoughts...cheers

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Old 11-05-2007, 03:07 PM   #174
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Jediphile you need to get over this whole alienating thing. You make it sound like LucasArts would be punishing fans by making an MMO. When a company makes a game they don't do it to alienate one fanbase, they do it to attract a fanbase. If you don't like the game or the type of game then just don't play it. Same with your Star Trek example. If you don't like it then just don't watch it, don't act like they're forcing it upon you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
2. Do you honestly - honestly - think that you liking the idea of the MMORPG will make LA do it, even if lots of fans say they hate the idea?
And stop directing questions back at us like this. Avery never implied that she thought her opinion influenced what kind of game LucasArts will make, but this is the message you have been implying.


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Old 11-05-2007, 03:28 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by The Architect
LA would be foolish to disregard the awesome plot potential KotOR3 has as a SPRPG. The plot, the characters, the dialogue choices... can you have all that awesome stuff that made K1 & K2 awesome in a MMORPG? From what I've heard, you can't, so just why exactly would someone want to fix something that ain't broke?
Perhaps because MMORPGs are the latest bandwagon to jump on? Blizzard pulled a stunning fairy tale with World of Warcraft, and even though people like me where furious because it ruined the Warcraft story.. what are we compared to 9 million paying customers?

I bet LA is very considerate in its decisions. And if they decide that a Kotor MMORPG might have a larger audience..they'll go for it.
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Old 11-05-2007, 04:46 PM   #176
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Jediphile you need to get over this whole alienating thing.
Why? If this is how I see the situation, then why can't I say so? I'm not disrespecting anyone's position, I'm simply stating mine. Why must I stop doing that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Moeller
You make it sound like LucasArts would be punishing fans by making an MMO. When a company makes a game they don't do it to alienate one fanbase, they do it to attract a fanbase. If you don't like the game or the type of game then just don't play it.
Nor will I, but you'll forgive me I don't feel like just sitting quietly and watch another franchise do what Trek did by doing what I consider a dubious strategic move that will axe the fanbase. That's what I'm seeing, so that's what I'm saying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Moeller
Same with your Star Trek example. If you don't like it then just don't watch it, don't act like they're forcing it upon you.
Nor is anyone forcing you read my posts. If you don't like them...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Moeller
And stop directing questions back at us like this. Avery never implied that she thought her opinion influenced what kind of game LucasArts will make, but this is the message you have been implying.
Oh please. My position is constantly questioned, so I argue in favor of it, yet when I do that and ask others to do the same that they do to me, then that's suddenly wrong? I don't understand why I constantly need to justify my position for it to remain relevant, while I cannot do the same in return. This is a forum for discussion. That's what we're doing.

It sounds more to me like you want me to shut up and stop posting because you don't like what I'm posting... But I do apologize if my arguments are making people see some perspectives they would rather not. I'm not going to stop, though.


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Old 11-05-2007, 05:21 PM   #177
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I've been on this forum for close to a year now, and all I've heard about is how Obsidian will be the only company that could possibly continue KotOR, and how bioware is the past, and K1 was cliche and TSL was a masterpiece, and I'm going round Avellones for a booty call, Blah Blah... this thread is the closest thing to good news for kotOR I've heard in a while, let me savor this moment before the disgruntled MMO haters and TSLites brainwash me into thinking that this possible project will fail

Go Bioware!!


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Old 11-05-2007, 06:20 PM   #178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adamqd
I've been on this forum for close to a year now, and all I've heard about is how Obsidian will be the only company that could possibly continue KotOR, and how bioware is the past, and K1 was cliche and TSL was a masterpiece, and I'm going round Avellones for a booty call, Blah Blah... this thread is the closest thing to good news for kotOR I've heard in a while, let me savor this moment before the disgruntled MMO haters and TSLites brainwash me into thinking that this possible project will fail

Go Bioware!!
Though I'm not keen on MMO's, I personally wouldn't mind a KotOR one if it steered clear from a possible K3 and took a different direction (Sith War, Mandalorian War, etc...), what I would mind is monthly fees, I already pay for the game and my broadband, I refuse to pay for any game every month just to be allowed to play it (and don't give me the "but they need money to run the servers blah blah" BS, I'm sure LA could keep the servers alive without monthly fees and still make a profit, hell I'm sure Blizzard could do it too now that they're going into expansion packs, but I'm trailing off here...)



Quote:
Originally Posted by Ztalker
Right. Not some Ztalkerian suggestion for the possible new MMO...
I like a lot of those ideas actually, well done...Here's hoping common sense is as widespread as you might hope.

Jedi are restricted IRL(well...you know ) though, they would have to answer to the Jedi order, do what they're told, not shag, etc etc...
You could apply the same penalties to the Sith, answer to your master, don't go around parading in Jedi territories etc etc...



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Last edited by tk102; 11-05-2007 at 06:40 PM. Reason: Reducing size of the quote block, guess I'm just feeling nitpicky today. :P
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Old 11-05-2007, 08:15 PM   #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by importedbeer
That is all well and good but why does everyone assume that this announcement means a KOTOR MMORPG?
Welcome importedbeer! How nice of you to come over and hobnob a bit with some of us LF peeps. Not everyone assumes the LucasArts/BioWare project is a KotOR MMORPG. I personally feel that it's going to be a MMORPG based in the SW universe and will be sorely disappointed if the game's timeline is set after 1,000 BBY. Of course it will be even better if it turns out to be SPRPG KotOR 3 but I'm not real hopeful of that outcome.
Quote:
Originally Posted by importedbeer
The fact however is, that the MMORPG currently being created by Bioware, for quite some time in my neighboring town of Austin is something Bioware has hinted at being their own property- plus something that attracted the attention of EA.
What have you read that makes you think BioWare's MMORPG is their own IP? That flies in the face of the BioWare and Pandemic Studios profile that EA published on their investor website right about the time they made the announcement of the BioWare/Pandemic acquisition. The row for the BioWare MMORPG doesn't have a check mark in the owned IP column, like Mass Effect and Dragon Age do, thus leading one to conclude the BioWare MMORPG is using a licensed IP for their MMOG.
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Originally Posted by importedbeer
Is it reasonable to presume that Bioware will make yet another MMORPG for LA? IMO- NO! Is it reasonable to assume Bioware will make another title- console, PC, or whatever for LA? Yes.
I have to disagree. BioWare turned down the opportunity to make KotOR II, why would they go back to making more console/PC SPRPG titles for licensed IP from LucasArts when they've been doing just fine on their own and are well-established in the SPRPG genre? However if one considers the game development strategy BioWare has employed one will note that BioWare uses licensed IP when starting development for a new platform or genre. They did it with SPRPG (NWN and KotOR) and they did it again for the handheld platform (Sonic). If past behavior is any indication then it's quite reasonable to expect their MMORPG to use a licensed IP, even if one ignores the aforementioned BioWare studio profile posted on EA's investor website.


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Old 11-05-2007, 08:16 PM   #180
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I hope they don't screw it up......




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Old 11-05-2007, 08:41 PM   #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Char Ell
Welcome importedbeer! How nice of you to come over and hobnob a bit with some of us LF peeps. Not everyone assumes the LucasArts/BioWare project is a KotOR MMORPG. I personally feel that it's going to be a MMORPG based in the SW universe and will be sorely disappointed if the game's timeline is set after 1,000 BBY. Of course it will be even better if it turns out to be SPRPG KotOR 3 but I'm not real hopeful of that outcome.
Well, now that I think about that... The MMO is probably the most 'safe' route to avoid the Kotor 3 with hopes of earning much money. Bioware has stated that they aren't making a Kotor 3... But do that means it should be an MMO and not a spin-off? I surely wouldn't mind a Single Game KotOR: [Insert name here] + [Without number, because, of course it's a spin-off]

I think we aren't considering this option.


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Old 11-05-2007, 09:30 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by Jediphile
I remember this argument. It's exactly the same argument that the powers that be at Paramount made when they declared it "necessary" to "reinvigorate" the Star Trek franchise by going back in time and doing the Enterprise show, even if it alienated the fanbase, because they needed attract a new audience. Result? The show was cancelled and thefranchise crashed and burned...

Sloppy comparison. Even had too much Star Trek and it was a time when they couldn't take it anymore. Then the show kinda sucked, which doesn't help. They're going back in time with the new Trek movie, who knows what's that going to do? KotOR doesn't need a change and still is strong, so going into a different direction won't seem like a very desperate measure.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Actually, I'm far more likely to throw a fit over people on the internet who make what I consider arrogant presumptions about what I do or do not think...

Except that, you do sound that way and I say this in the most polite manner. When you post about your opinion, people are going to assume certain things from what you wrote. That's natural and something we all have to deal with.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Me? Absolutely not. But..

1. I'm not the only one voicing this position.

2. Do you honestly - honestly - think that you liking the idea of the MMORPG will make LA do it, even if lots of fans say they hate the idea?

No, I'm not that important, but then neither are you.

1. There's about 1000 members of the KKK in the world (I think). Does it mean that every white guy in the world hates n*****?

2. Actually, a recent poll on Gamespot.com showed that there was good interest in a KotOR MMORPG. Hardly a survey of the gaming population, but it means that the base is there. Even Penny-Arcade made a comic and blogpost about how exciting it could be.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
That's just what Paramount argued for the Enterprise tv-show... Alienating the hardcore fanbase is usually a recipe for disaster, because they are the meat and potatoes of your industry that keeps you alive. Dreaming about tapping into the cashcow market of WoW or its ilk is no doubt tempting to LA, I understand that, but if they step all over their own fanbase in their lust to cash in on that market, then they could easily be putting a noose around their own necks...
Except that dumbly following the fanbase can also be counter-productive. The Warcraft universe easily got through because World of Warcraft was a very good game. The example of Star Trek is very sloppy again. Enterprise can hardly be considered a good show, while the result of the change in the Warcraft franchise was very good. How is that not possible with KotOR?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
No, it's not. Because K3 is a pure excuse to print money - lots and lots of us will buy it. We will be very skeptical about the MMORPG that has the gall to replace it, however, and so the game has to struggle to create its own entirely new fanbase.


As you say, it's a different game. Why then won't you acknowledge that this also says something about the fanbase? The people who like the KotOR games are SPRPG-players. If they were not, they would not have played the games. You're not going to get the fans of EVE Online or WoW to suddenly jump ship simply because you release a MMORPG that says both "Star Wars" and KotOR on it, because it's going to be a non-factor to them. If it's good, then the MMORPG-crowd will play it, but they'll do so whether it says KotOR on the box or not. The reverse is not the case, however - the fanbase of the KotOR games is not going to play it automatically just because it says KotOR on the box, because - as you say - it's a different game, and we'll all know that.


Unlikely, because the fanbase will then be so alienated and disappointed that KotOR is, essentially, dead. After all, LA refused to reward us for our loyalty to the SPRPGs, so why should we buy any of their products? Loyalty goes both ways. It's a pact. If LA won't honor it, then why should I or anyone else?

Seriously, stop acting as if you were the representative of the entire KotOR fanbase. Your personal opinion, is exactly that your personal opinion. I consider myself a KotOR fan and in no way do I have the same take on this as you. The only reason Moeller told you to stop focusing on "alienation" is exactly that. You have no proof of it and don't speak for every single one of us.



Now, some of the points you keep bringing makes it seem like you never read the thread and post in the dark. Many people here, including myself, think that any KotOR MMO should steer clear of K3, for various reasons. In other words, we keep the hope that a K3 SPRPG will be made. Others, have a more economic take on this: why have two games when it will up production cost and not necessarily bring in more money? Which is why they believe only one game will come out. So people arguing somewhat in favor of a KotOR MMORPG do not have the exact same opinion on how it should be done.

My personal take on it is that both can be done without too much problem or increased production costs. Remember that the KotOR universe is relatively vast and plenty of areas can be covered in an MMORPG without touching K3.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Char Ell
What have you read that makes you think BioWare's MMORPG is their own IP? That flies in the face of the BioWare and Pandemic Studios profile that EA published on their investor website right about the time they made the announcement of the BioWare/Pandemic acquisition. The row for the BioWare MMORPG doesn't have a check mark in the owned IP column, like Mass Effect and Dragon Age do, thus leading one to conclude the BioWare MMORPG is using a licensed IP for their MMOG.
Still, I'm sure you agree, it is weird for EA to be excited about that. It does cast some reasonable doubt.


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Old 11-05-2007, 09:46 PM   #183
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Right. Time to throw in my two cents before throwing myself on my (rather huge amount of) homework:

Imo, there's nothing wrong with a Single player RPG. Kotor 1 and 2 worked out that way. Baldurs Gate worked out that way. Etc.

But I'm not against an MMORPG either. Why? Here I go:

1. Galaxies is the fine example of lack of creative vision and strenght. The original Jedi system was incredibly harsh (unknown prequisites, I believe 3 jobs?) had to be obtained and maxed.
n00bs, or...less...experienced and willing players complained. So then you could choose a Jedi from the start, and Random15yearoldidiot1995 walks around flourishing his lightsaber, whilst other players had completed the previous, FAR more intense questline. This is THE worst motivation to keep playing.
2. By doing so, the balance in the game shifted. Let's face it: Jedi should be powerfull. But if 99% of the population of the game is Jedi, there's no challenge and balance.

Right. Not some Ztalkerian suggestion for the possible new MMO:
1. In Kotor, non-Jedi enemies could be a tough opponent for any Jedi. Keep this intact, and even add some...'special' stuff for the non-Jedi classes to keep the advantage over Jedi. Because eventually, a lv 20 Jedi will be stronger then a lv 20 Bounty Hunter.
Give this bounty hunter the...for the hell of it..."Mandalorian Jedi Killer Technique" skill/power, obtained from a Mandalorian NPC who fought against the Jedi. The bounty hunter now receives a +? bonus against Jedi. Now give him a Cortosis blade to spar, and there we go.
2. Give interesting...extra's to non-Jedi characters.
There are so many possibilities. For example: Bounty hunters can fly and buy every ship they want. They can take contracts from the Sith Empire AND the Republic. Give them some cool skills like 'Scoundrel's Luck,' 'Solo shoots first' etc to make them interesting.
3. Restrict Jedi characters. They can only fly the ships of the Jedi Order. They can't enter Sith space, add some Yasilimiri's for powerfull non-Jedi players to get, etc.
4. Make it an...sarcrifice to befome a Jedi. Your previous skills will be undone. As Jedi you start with a clean sheet. That way, Jedi won't be the Jedi class atop of their previous. Also, armor restrictions for Jedi. AND..the bounty on Jedi should be alive. Any non-Jedi player can attack a Jedi. If killed he receives a...'proof'' whatsoever for killing the Jedi, which he/she can deliver for money. If the Jedi however, kills them instead, he is set back in experience, and his name will be known to the authorities until he pays it off. No more Republic mission for him/her then.
5. Class-planets. Mykkr for the rogues (Jedi can't feel the force there, so no over-powered Jedi can come there and slay them). Give the Bounty hunters Nar Shaddaa, etc.

Just some random thoughts...cheers
I like most of the ideas. Only thing I would suggest is that they give Scoundrel/Smuggler the ability to purchase any ship. Give them the blockade buster ability(sneak past Republic/Sith forces). They should make some planets off limits to those without proper clearance(Republic landing rights cannot be used on Sith controlled worlds, and vice versa). You should need to seek out a smuggler to get you there. If one is unavailable, have an NPC that will take you there for 25% of your total cash(credits/Bantha beads/whatever they end up using as currency). That way you can still get there, but its expensive enough that you would rather have a player take you there.
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Old 11-05-2007, 09:53 PM   #184
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/sigh.

Listen, the best reason I can come up with against a KOTOR MMO is the fact that once it comes out, it won't really meet everyone's expectations.

Look at TSL. Supposed to be awesome right? And we still got some diehard fans who do think TSL is awesome, like me. But that doesn't mean that many people who really wanted a TSL was severly disappointed by it...when it actually did come out. Influence looked good on paper, and everyone was ranting on how great the system would be and how great training other people would be...until it was actually put into pratice. That's the thing. Ideas sound awesome, but once you make them concerte, you get to see its faults.

Basically, KOTOR MMO is going to make people angry. No matter what. Not only will you get these diehard people who hate KOTOR MMO no matter what, but you'll get the people who actually WILL like the concept of KOTOR MMO, but will hate it when they actually enter into the world, either because Bioware happens to be moronic when making said MMO, or because of basic design flaws that is inherent in any MMO game.

Be careful of what you wish for.


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Old 11-05-2007, 09:59 PM   #185
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If LA wants to do a Star Wars MMORPG, then why don't they just make it completely separate from KotOR3, so it doesn't piss off those of us who want K3 to be a SPRPG and it doesn't piss off those who want a Star Wars MMORPG?

It's not as if the production cost would outweigh the return. I mean seriously, look around. I guarantee you that a significant chunk of the KotOR3 buyers will be fans of the previous KotOR games.

Is it just a coincidence that many of us fans here and those on the other KotOR based forums speak about K3 topics as if they expect and hope it to be a SPRPG? I think not. LA would be foolish to leave us in the dark.

Okay sure, we don't represent the majority, but you can't help but think given the overwhelming favouritism of a SPRPG K3 over a MMORPG K3 on the Internet, it suggests that it wouldn't be so different off-Internet wise.

If it costs more, so what? You have to remember that pleasing as many customers as possible is the most important thing in business. Just ignoring and disregarding some customers for the sake of others is stupid, since you just don't know how profitable to your organisation they may be.

LA made the same mistake with TSL. They didn't think ahead. They thought "Oh yeah, we'll rush this game out for Christmas and make more money".

They would've made more if TSL came out in Feb for both the Xbox and PC, since there would've been people who heard about the games cut content kaffufle and boycotted it, waiting to buy it later on when it's cheaper and download TSLRP.


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Old 11-05-2007, 10:17 PM   #186
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Quote:
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Listen, the best reason I can come up with against a KOTOR MMO is the fact that once it comes out, it won't really meet everyone's expectations.
What's your point? You're basically saying that the franchise should stop here because no matter what happens people will be disappointed? How is that specific to an MMO? People might hate K3 SPRPG for various reasons too. Whatever happens, you're going to piss off someone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
Okay sure, we don't represent the majority, but you can't help but think given the overwhelming favouritism of a SPRPG K3 over a MMORPG K3 on the Internet, it suggests that it wouldn't be so different off-Internet wise.
Except that the internet is hardly representative of the majority. Remember, casual gamers are much more numerous then hardcore gamers. I know that 1.3 million copies of K1 was sold for the XBox, can you honestly say that 1.3 million person went on the internet to post about one of their games? Absolutely not.

Unfortunately, we, hardcore gamers, are not representative of rest of the world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
You have to remember that pleasing as many customers as possible is the most important thing in business.

Keywords: as possible.

I'll leave it at that.


Don't get me wrong though, I believe that doing both is financially viable and would prefer it if it was that way and on this we fully agree.

I think there is a market for both. Segments of those markets overlap, but I think the people who would play the MMO would also play the SP game.
Hey, at this point, they might indeed be thinking ahead. First let the MMO come out, let it garner some success and then decide to conclude the Revan trilogy. If the MMO is about the Mandalorian wars, people who did not play the original SPRPGs might decide to do so just to know what happens next. Then, conclude with K3 at a later date. Of course, this is just speculation on my part.


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Old 11-05-2007, 10:23 PM   #187
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Those of you claiming that KotOR 3 will be a cash cow versus the MMO, please keep in mind that SWG makes more money than KotOR I and II. AND it continues to do so 4 years later. It still made more money when the subs were down to their lowest point, simply because you pay on a monthly basis. Personally I hate the monthly fees as well, but you cannot deny that it makes them money on a steady basis.

Talking about Enterprise as an example of turning your back on the fans is a poor example. A better one would be Metallica. I used to be a Metallica fan, and I cannot stand how they dumped their original fan base. Financially though, I have to admit that it made them MORE fans and cash than they had before. They had made a wise decision to cut loose the ones who made them big, and in the end it made a huge profit over the relatively lackluster sales they had before. Metallica concerts sold out every show they played. CD sales exploded. Merch flew off the shelves. Original fans of them whine and cry about how Metallica "Sold out" but in a business sense, selling out is a good thing. Metallica will never get another dime from me. But they make it up with the thousands they get from their new fans.
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Old 11-05-2007, 10:27 PM   #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Except that the internet is hardly representative of the majority. Remember, casual gamers are much more numerous then hardcore gamers. I know that 1.3 million copies of K1 was sold for the XBox, can you honestly say that 1.3 million person went on the internet to post about one of their games? Absolutely not.

Unfortunately, we, hardcore gamers, are not representative of rest of the world.
Actually, I'm neither a casual or hardcore gamer. I almost never play games. I just happen to be a big fan of the KotOR games. But still, doesn't mean I alone represent the rest of the casual/infrequent gamers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Keywords: as possible.

I'll leave it at that.
As possible = make both, technically.

I'll leave it at that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Don't get me wrong though, I believe that doing both is financially viable and would prefer it if it was that way and on this we fully agree. Though I won't cry if it isn't.
Nor will I. However it will be really disappointing if no KotOR3 SPRPG is ever made.


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Old 11-05-2007, 10:42 PM   #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Basically, KOTOR MMO is going to make people angry. No matter what. Not only will you get these diehard people who hate KOTOR MMO no matter what, but you'll get the people who actually WILL like the concept of KOTOR MMO, but will hate it when they actually enter into the world, either because Bioware happens to be moronic when making said MMO, or because of basic design flaws that is inherent in any MMO game.

Be careful of what you wish for.
The problem with your logic is that you can replace the words KOTOR and Bioware with Warcraft and Blizzard.

Of course we all know how horribly Blizzard's first venture into an MMO failed because they didn't listen to all of the fans of Warcraft who screamed about not wanting a Warcraft MMO.

No, I'm not saying that the KotOR MMO will be as successful or better than Blizzard's WoW, but I am saying that you are making a pretty hefty leap to say it will fail(even though we don't know if that's what it is).
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Old 11-05-2007, 11:04 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Still, I'm sure you agree, it is weird for EA to be excited about that. It does cast some reasonable doubt.
Yes, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me why EA execs seemed very excited about BioWare's MMORPG if it's a licensed property but that doesn't make me doubt that it is. There could be a number of reasons why the EA execs were excited, from the new technologies that BioWare is developing for use in its MMOG to just plain being excited at the prospects of EA having a AAA MMORPG in its portfolio. But unless one thinks someone from EA deliberately decided to leave the BioWare MMORPG check box for owned IP unchecked so as to mislead readers of the document then there is no reason to doubt the BioWare MMORPG IP is not BioWare/EA-owned and therefore licensed. Of course whether or not BioWare's MMORPG is using a LucasArts IP is highly debatable but I believe that it is.


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Old 11-05-2007, 11:05 PM   #191
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Quote:
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Talking about Enterprise as an example of turning your back on the fans is a poor example. A better one would be Metallica. I used to be a Metallica fan, and I cannot stand how they dumped their original fan base. Financially though, I have to admit that it made them MORE fans and cash than they had before. They had made a wise decision to cut loose the ones who made them big, and in the end it made a huge profit over the relatively lackluster sales they had before. Metallica concerts sold out every show they played. CD sales exploded. Merch flew off the shelves. Original fans of them whine and cry about how Metallica "Sold out" but in a business sense, selling out is a good thing. Metallica will never get another dime from me. But they make it up with the thousands they get from their new fans.

I think that is indeed the best example yet. First time fans jumped ship, but Metallica kept some and made new ones too. Enterprise never managed to do that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
Actually, I'm neither a casual or hardcore gamer. I almost never play games. I just happen to be a big fan of the KotOR games. But still, doesn't mean I alone represent the rest of the casual/infrequent gamers.
I'm sorry then, I mistook your intention.

Still, I think we'll never have a good ensemble view of the market, from our little standpoint and that's what I wanted to mention.



Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
As possible = make both, technically.

I'll leave it at that.
Well, my point was that it's entire possible that it's not financially viable for LA to invest into two games. Not exactly knowing how much they're willing to spend for such a venture, I can't say I'm 100% sure of anything. I'm just saying that if they can't please everyone, so be it.

From what little I know though, making both would be commercially viable because of reasons I've already mentioned.

Blizzard actually sold another copy of Warcraft 3 and Frozen Throne thanks to WoW. I'm not representative of anything, but I had only played the WC3 demo before WoW and after that, I wanted to know the lore. To make a better, I'll mention one of Relic's strategies when making their expansion, Dark Crusade, a standalone game. Well, first off, you needed the original and the 1st x-pac to play with all the races in MP, but another was how they decided to use DC to attract people into playing the original and the first x-pac, Winter Assault. They thought:"Hey, if people like DC, they might want to play Dawn of War and Winter Assault,for the SP campaign." By the way, the SP campaigns in both games are pretty good.


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Old 11-06-2007, 07:51 AM   #192
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Quote:
Negative Sun wrote:
Jedi are restricted IRL(well...you know ) though, they would have to answer to the Jedi order, do what they're told, not shag, etc etc...
You could apply the same penalties to the Sith, answer to your master, don't go around parading in Jedi territories etc etc...
Another excellent example. Making Jedi answer to the Jedi order makes them restricted. it means they can't go on a killing spree without getting exiled etc. Maybe it's possible...that if a Jedi would do something...strange, he should be given punishment? Maybe removal of previliges?
Combine this with an...rank system for Jedi. There are X quests for the Jedi. Those quest will be activated by (for example) a Sith player/Bounty Hunter/Rogue doing something wrong. The Jedi players can then accept the Job and arrest/kill/do nothing. Like in the RPG prequels, it will determine your allignment and respone from the council.
If you simple kill the guy, you will be...punished by the council. Stripped of the Force? Break your lightsaber? Temporary Exile +temporary removal from Force Powers? Beiing 'forced' to retake the 'noob' Jedi training quest?

These might seem harsh, but are just the way of the Jedi. Why not profit of their harsh training methods and way of thinking?

Your option of 'not shagging' is a good one as well. Jedi aren't allowed such attachments. Making that Twilek give you that neck massage might prove to be a stupid mistake...in matters of of both punishment by the NPC council and STD's.

If only we were alowed to make the rules for this game...dang...

@ Tommycat: Excellent idea. It would make the smuggler/rogue a really exciting class to play. Taking a mission from the Republic...sneak behind the lines using your Bockade Buster or underworld contacts...make your way through all those Sith players without getting noticed...(Yelling "Where can I find NPC XYZ to kill?" might earn you a few blaster 'n saber cuts to live with)...

Anyways...made up some more...idea's by looking at other MMO's, this time regarding character customising:
-Being able to create every single aspect of your character is very appealing. The nose, the mouth etc. This works together with the individual 'omg I rock!' feeling when defeating an enemy.
1. Be able to create your own blasters and vibroswords. You should be able to buy a standard kit, then be able to customise it on workbenches. Just accuire the parts from other players or NPC traders, and go. Just add that Scope of +3 vs walking carpets...you know you want to...
2. Be able to dye/details every aspect of your armor. There should be several layers for your armor, and visible. Kotor already has this. But be able to SHOW it. Also, you should be capable of adding small details on it. Maybe several quests give you ribbons or small stuff? Be able to hang it on your belt. Add some Wookie scalps to your shoulder.
3. Scars. After a fight you'll be randomly scarred. You can choose to remove them at the hospital, or bear them. This might not fit the coninuity, but will improve your bonding with your character. "See this scar? This one's from a Krayt Dragon!" While you removed the emberassing blaster wound from that 14 year old Rogue player.

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Old 11-06-2007, 11:57 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by Char Ell
Welcome importedbeer! How nice of you to come over and hobnob a bit with some of us LF peeps. I personally feel that it's going to be a MMORPG based in the SW universe and will be sorely disappointed if the game's timeline is set after 1,000 BBY. Of course it will be even better if it turns out to be SPRPG KotOR 3 but I'm not real hopeful of that outcome.
Thanks for the welcome. Yes, I agree that it *could* be a Starwars based MMORPG. My arguments were based off the assumption that it would be a KOTOR based MMORPG and if I have made typos or mistakes alluding to the implausibility of it being a Starwars based IP, I apologize.


Quote:
What have you read that makes you think BioWare's MMORPG is their own IP? .
Oh it is entirely possible I am wrong. I base it more on the feel of what they say based on over a dozen threads on their secret MMORPG...because they have gone through such lengths to dismiss that they will make a KOTOR based game, and keep talking about their "original" premise. It is possible that they are actually talking about an original premise within a Starwars related universe-and going around our arguments that way- but they are usually not that sneaky

I am a terrible judge of mood and nuance though, so my opinions are usually way off base, but in the forums I did get a strong sense that it was an original IP or atleast an IP that was new to its fans- which neither KOTOR or Starwars is. I also thought it relatively less likely that EA would base its acquisition on the base of an IP owned by someone else.


Quote:
If past behavior is any indication then it's quite reasonable to expect their MMORPG to use a licensed IP, even if one ignores the aforementioned BioWare studio profile posted on EA's investor website.
You make a valid point. Again my reasoning for this is a bit complex, so please bear with me

Bioware is still trying to keep its PC base happy because they have a humongous roster of existing fans who can be leveraged if they go the MMORPG route. Unlike many others, one of the most important facts about Bioware is that they can count on bringing in new people into the MMORPG genre, instead of solely stealing from other IPs.

Now imagine I am a developer. Sure MMORPGs are a huge, attractive market. I want to launch one. On one hand- an existing IP is a surer bet, and I totally agree that this could be an existing IP.

However an existing IP based on KOTOR- far riskier given their existing fan base. There is polarity in this concept- some people will embrace it- some people will hate it (atleast until there is an official ending to the KOTOR story), and given that Bioware is still investing in its PC base with games like Dragon Age, it doesn't not seem like a good strategic sense to get them riled.

Taking the universe beyond the traditional confines of a SRPG is not as much of the issue as much as the fact that Obsidian- unknowingly- has created a rather sticky situation with their cliffhanger Kotor 2 ending. If Bioware wants to leverage its base to boost their MMORPG as well as maintain them for future releases, they will know from their forums and feedback that touching KOTOR and potentially even the universe is more polarizing than taking another healthy IP- perhaps even a Lucas based IP and running with that instead. Again, just my opinion.
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Old 11-06-2007, 12:46 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by importedbeer
Thanks for the welcome. Yes, I agree that it *could* be a Starwars based MMORPG. My arguments were based off the assumption that it would be a KOTOR based MMORPG and if I have made typos or mistakes alluding to the implausibility of it being a Starwars based IP, I apologize.




Oh it is entirely possible I am wrong. I base it more on the feel of what they say based on over a dozen threads on their secret MMORPG...because they have gone through such lengths to dismiss that they will make a KOTOR based game, and keep talking about their "original" premise. It is possible that they are actually talking about an original premise within a Starwars related universe-and going around our arguments that way- but they are usually not that sneaky

I am a terrible judge of mood and nuance though, so my opinions are usually way off base, but in the forums I did get a strong sense that it was an original IP or atleast an IP that was new to its fans- which neither KOTOR or Starwars is. I also thought it relatively less likely that EA would base its acquisition on the base of an IP owned by someone else.




You make a valid point. Again my reasoning for this is a bit complex, so please bear with me

Bioware is still trying to keep its PC base happy because they have a humongous roster of existing fans who can be leveraged if they go the MMORPG route. Unlike many others, one of the most important facts about Bioware is that they can count on bringing in new people into the MMORPG genre, instead of solely stealing from other IPs.

Now imagine I am a developer. Sure MMORPGs are a huge, attractive market. I want to launch one. On one hand- an existing IP is a surer bet, and I totally agree that this could be an existing IP.

However an existing IP based on KOTOR- far riskier given their existing fan base. There is polarity in this concept- some people will embrace it- some people will hate it (atleast until there is an official ending to the KOTOR story), and given that Bioware is still investing in its PC base with games like Dragon Age, it doesn't not seem like a good strategic sense to get them riled.

Taking the universe beyond the traditional confines of a SRPG is not as much of the issue as much as the fact that Obsidian- unknowingly- has created a rather sticky situation with their cliffhanger Kotor 2 ending. If Bioware wants to leverage its base to boost their MMORPG as well as maintain them for future releases, they will know from their forums and feedback that touching KOTOR and potentially even the universe is more polarizing than taking another healthy IP- perhaps even a Lucas based IP and running with that instead. Again, just my opinion.
why do u all reckon it's lucas arts makin a mmo?? it isnt it's bioware and la have nothing to do with it, that mmo has been gettin made since 2005 and is due out 2009. on bioware the day they announced there teamin up with la they put the next gen project on the drop menu. so there u go.
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Old 11-06-2007, 01:27 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Sloppy comparison. Even had too much Star Trek and it was a time when they couldn't take it anymore. Then the show kinda sucked, which doesn't help. They're going back in time with the new Trek movie, who knows what's that going to do? KotOR doesn't need a change and still is strong, so going into a different direction won't seem like a very desperate measure.
If KotOR does not need a change, then who do we need a KotOR MMO?

Besides, I doubt Blizzard saw it as a desperate measure when they decided to do WoW.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Except that, you do sound that way and I say this in the most polite manner. When you post about your opinion, people are going to assume certain things from what you wrote. That's natural and something we all have to deal with.
Well, you'll excuse me if I wish to remove my humble self from the discussion, since I don't think I'm relevant in that context. We're not talking about me, and nor should we be. As you seem to suggest, I don't matter at all on the larger scale of things, so there is little reason to discuss me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
1. There's about 1000 members of the KKK in the world (I think). Does it mean that every white guy in the world hates n*****?
To use your own words, "sloppy comparison". Not only does the observation have no bearing on the discussion, but it's also a bad example due to the racist overtones. Besides, as I've already pointed out, I don't claim to be representative of everyone who ever played KotOR. Indeed, I said just that in what you reply to here, so it seems - at best - very odd simply ignore it and then proceed as if I'd claimed that all Kotorians are exactly the same and/or that I'm a representive of them. I've said neither. In fact, I just said that the latter is definitely not the case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
2. Actually, a recent poll on Gamespot.com showed that there was good interest in a KotOR MMORPG. Hardly a survey of the gaming population, but it means that the base is there. Even Penny-Arcade made a comic and blogpost about how exciting it could be.
Polls are notoriously shady, since they depend entirely on what precisely was asked, in what context, and - highly relevant in this case - who was asked. I'd add when to that list, except it's probably less relevant in the case of a game. Heck, you could even say that I have an "interest" in it, since I'm discussion. Wouldn't be doing that if I were not interested, would I? Because obviously "interest" does not equal being positive towards something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Except that dumbly following the fanbase can also be counter-productive. The Warcraft universe easily got through because World of Warcraft was a very good game. The example of Star Trek is very sloppy again. Enterprise can hardly be considered a good show, while the result of the change in the Warcraft franchise was very good. How is that not possible with KotOR?
Sure it's possible, but - as has been said before - these are very different games. The original Warcraft games were RTS and WoW an MMO. This means that the overall plot was more significant than the individual characters, yet still with the main focus on strategy and action. KotOR games are SPRPGs, however, which means they are completely plot-driven with focus on the depth of its characters. To be successful games, the characters must spark something among the players, so that we have an emotional investment in them. How many official characters from the Warcraft do we see fanfiction about, for example? You can't simply ignore that difference as if it did not exist. It's essential to KotOR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Seriously, stop acting as if you were the representative of the entire KotOR fanbase. Your personal opinion, is exactly that your personal opinion. I consider myself a KotOR fan and in no way do I have the same take on this as you. The only reason Moeller told you to stop focusing on "alienation" is exactly that. You have no proof of it and don't speak for every single one of us.
...

Okay. Fine. I seem to recall already having said so repeatedly, but since that is apparently not good enough, let me just state this for the record. I'll even put a link in my sig in the hope that I will not have to repeat it again for the sake of the discussion:

DISCLAIMER:

1. I am not nor do I claim to be in any way a representive of the KotOR net community or any other. While some people might agree with me, I do know know who or how numerous they are, nor will I make attempts to find out.

2. I have no and nor do claim to have any more knowledge beyond that which any other poster on this or any other public forum would reasonably have access to. I have no particular insights into KotOR or any other Star Wars related subject, and my conclusions and conjecture is entirely my own.

3. I do not claim in any way to be more intelligent than anyone else posting on this or any other public forum. If I appear to be, then that shall be the conclusion of the reader alone. If my arguments appear to be senseless and inane, that too shall be the conclusion of the reader and not mine.

4. My opinion does not, nor do I claim that it should, have more weight than anyone else's, nor matter in any way to anyone on this forum, another forum, or at Lucasarts or any other company beyond what what value such a party may themselves choose to apply to anything I say. In that case, I deny any association with such value myself.

5. I do not claim to be right about any opinion or speculation that I voice, nor do I claim that I'm in any way perfect to any degree where I might be considered above making mistakes.

6. Any speculation or conjecture I make is - to my knowledge - entirely my own, unless stated otherwise. In keeping with point 2 above (q.v.), any speculation on my part on what will or will not be the consequence of any decision or action on the part of Lucasarts or anyone else is entirely based on personal experience and suppositions on my part alone.

Now, have I now sufficiently removed myself from being a topic for discussion or did I forget anything in the above? Or, in other words, can we please discuss the topic now instead of me?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Now, some of the points you keep bringing makes it seem like you never read the thread and post in the dark.
Right...

I shall simply note and respect your opinion rather than reply.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Many people here, including myself, think that any KotOR MMO should steer clear of K3, for various reasons. In other words, we keep the hope that a K3 SPRPG will be made. Others, have a more economic take on this: why have two games when it will up production cost and not necessarily bring in more money? Which is why they believe only one game will come out. So people arguing somewhat in favor of a KotOR MMORPG do not have the exact same opinion on how it should be done.
I would somewhat consider myself in the latter group for the simple reason that the numbers seem to me to be the only factor that LA will make its decisions on. I base this conclusion on LA's track record in the pa$t

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
My personal take on it is that both can be done without too much problem or increased production costs. Remember that the KotOR universe is relatively vast and plenty of areas can be covered in an MMORPG without touching K3.
I would so wish that I could agree, but unfortunately I find that I cannot. The fear of over-saturation is great in these cases, especially in LA's case, given that the company has stated it will only focus on a few Star Wars games each year. In other words, LA is already wary of releasing too many Star Wars games at the same, which then compete with each other.

If a Star Wars MMORPG is set in the KotOR era, then there is no doubt in my mind that this will be for the explicit purpose of luring existing KotOR fans to the new game, in which case I would consider LA to look at a SP KotOR3 released at the same time as a competitor for the same audience. Therefore I do not believe that a KotOR3 would be released, since it would keep some existing KotOR-players away from the MMORPG, whereas having only the MMORPG will be seen as a desirable in that KotOR-fans may be thought to have no other choice than to buy and play the game, since it's the only KotOR game around.


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Old 11-06-2007, 03:13 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by Millnsy
why do u all reckon it's lucas arts makin a mmo?? it isnt it's bioware and la have nothing to do with it, that mmo has been gettin made since 2005 and is due out 2009. on bioware the day they announced there teamin up with la they put the next gen project on the drop menu. so there u go.
My argument was
a. Most likely Bioware's MMORPG does not have anything to do with Lucas Arts.
b. If it does, it is not KOTOR based.

There are some people who believe this MMORPG is a KOTOR based MMORPG, but by quoting me, you accidently/unknowingly make me sound as if your statement is directed towards me. If you quote the correct people, you may get a more reasoned argument.
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Old 11-06-2007, 03:54 PM   #197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Millnsy
why do u all reckon it's lucas arts makin a mmo??
It is all pure speculation at this point. As far as I know, no one here has any first hand information on what the Bioware/LucasArts partnership will bring. Everyone is simple stating their best educated guess based on what evidence they term useful. While some of it is intriguing and may be dead on, I believe no one outside the companies involved knows for sure.

People here seem passionate about their distaste for or their desire for a KOTOR MMO. Personally I’ve never felt the desire to play a MMO as I like to do things on my own and at my own pace, but just because I dislike the idea does not mean Lucas Arts will sour me on their games or the Star Wars franchise. I just will not play that game. That said if I ever decided to play a MMO a game based on KOTOR would be the one.
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Old 11-06-2007, 05:09 PM   #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
If KotOR does not need a change, then who do we need a KotOR MMO?

Besides, I doubt Blizzard saw it as a desperate measure when they decided to do WoW.
Why not now? The franchise is still strong and in no way will anyone call it a desperate measure.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
To use your own words, "sloppy comparison". Not only does the observation have no bearing on the discussion, but it's also a bad example due to the racist overtones. Besides, as I've already pointed out, I don't claim to be representative of everyone who ever played KotOR. Indeed, I said just that in what you reply to here, so it seems - at best - very odd simply ignore it and then proceed as if I'd claimed that all Kotorians are exactly the same and/or that I'm a representive of them. I've said neither. In fact, I just said that the latter is definitely not the case. + the "disclaimer", cut due to size
Well, sure it has a racist overtone, but at the time I could find nothing better. However, it doesn't make it less of a good example. Why? I'll tell you why.

You based your entire argumentation on one thing: alienation of fanbase. You cited Enterprise as an example. Yet, there has been no proof of this. Outside of the first 2 pages of this thread, reaction has been more temperate and moderate. It is expected. Had this been an official announcement of K3 being made by Bioware, you'd have people up in arms denouncing how it's a bad news and that LA should have given the job to Obsidian. This is also why I thought you didn't read the entire thread properly; it seemed like your arguments ignore the more moderate points of view that came after the initial knee-jerk reaction.
Your argumentation of alienation is then based on what? Your opinion, which you have stated quite clearly, as well as those of a few other people who think like you. A KotOR MMORPG would alienate you and some others. Not for a second can you even remotely speak of alienating the fanbase, at this point in time.

You can claim whatever you want to claim, your argumentation does not lie: it is fully based on your personal opinion and not on a larger view of the KotOR community.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Polls are notoriously shady, since they depend entirely on what precisely was asked, in what context, and - highly relevant in this case - who was asked. I'd add when to that list, except it's probably less relevant in the case of a game. Heck, you could even say that I have an "interest" in it, since I'm discussion. Wouldn't be doing that if I were not interested, would I? Because obviously "interest" does not equal being positive towards something.
The question was approximately like this:

Which of these rumors would you want to be true?

-3 options that don't matter
-Bioware MMO = KotOR 33%
-GTA IV sporting a 16 player MP mode 35%

In no way is this truly significant, but it means that there's a market and that some people are interested in it. True, the readers of Gamespot.com aren't the entire world, but again, this poll still has some meaning. I think you're intelligent enough to know that I used the word "interest" in a positive manner.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Sure it's possible, but - as has been said before - these are very different games. The original Warcraft games were RTS and WoW an MMO. This means that the overall plot was more significant than the individual characters, yet still with the main focus on strategy and action. KotOR games are SPRPGs, however, which means they are completely plot-driven with focus on the depth of its characters. To be successful games, the characters must spark something among the players, so that we have an emotional investment in them. How many official characters from the Warcraft do we see fanfiction about, for example? You can't simply ignore that difference as if it did not exist. It's essential to KotOR.

Some things about this part...

First, if this was an announcement that Petroglyph was having a partnership with LA for the development of some interactive experience based on the KotOR universe, nobody would give a damn. Yet, the two games would be totally different. I hardly think an RTS could convey this RPG character development and depth.

Second, the first element I highlighted. This is again why people tell you not to use argumentation based on your own personal opinion. I'm sorry if you don't like this, but it's true. You're saying, for a KotOR game to be successful, it would have to be the way you want it to be. If I reformulate it in a way that's not attackable:

"For me to enjoy a KotOR game, it would need to focus on the plot and character development, in order to generate an emotional attachment."

No talk about success or anything, only a pure personal opinion, no strings attached and nobody can contradict you.

Finally, the last segment highlighted, is totally unrepresentative of anything. I will discard it easily.

1. The main Warcraft characters already have a lot of backstory and not a lot of future. Sure, some fans can develop more, but I the current conjuncture in the Warcraft universe, with a greater focus on these lower class adventurers instead of main character demigods, due to World of Warcraft, it is entirely possible that writers simply don't give a rat's ass about them anyone and want to focus on their own stories in the world of Azeroth.
Of course, I base this on a conjunction of events and not on an absolute. I dare assume that people prefer to write new stories and few will focus on existing canon.

It is entirely possible that, had WC given more importance to character development, fanfiction would focus more strongly on maun characters. We'll never know.

2. Why should fanfiction even matter? How many fans of the entire KotOR community (remember, 1.3 million copies sold for the XBox) actually bother to write fanfiction? Too few to be of any factor.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
1-I would somewhat consider myself in the latter group for the simple reason that the numbers seem to me to be the only factor that LA will make its decisions on. I base this conclusion on LA's track record in the pa$t

2-I would so wish that I could agree, but unfortunately I find that I cannot. The fear of over-saturation is great in these cases, especially in LA's case, given that the company has stated it will only focus on a few Star Wars games each year. In other words, LA is already wary of releasing too many Star Wars games at the same, which then compete with each other.

3-If a Star Wars MMORPG is set in the KotOR era, then there is no doubt in my mind that this will be for the explicit purpose of luring existing KotOR fans to the new game, in which case I would consider LA to look at a SP KotOR3 released at the same time as a competitor for the same audience. Therefore I do not believe that a KotOR3 would be released, since it would keep some existing KotOR-players away from the MMORPG, whereas having only the MMORPG will be seen as a desirable in that KotOR-fans may be thought to have no other choice than to buy and play the game, since it's the only KotOR game around.

1. Track record has little bearing. Hey, I admit, I was among those who were panicking about EA buying Bioware and Pandemic. However, it seems that everything is turning out fine for them. Hard to base any reasoning on pure track record. Companies are run by people and people can change...or you change the person at the head of the company. Anyway...

2. Assuming it comes out at the same time. Let's assume the MMORPG, not based on K3, comes out in 2009. What stops K3 SPRPG to be released in 2011 or 2012? Nothing at all. In that case, no oversaturation of anything.

3. I'm seriously having a hard time figuring out what you're trying to say. An MMMORPG would try to lure many existing fans as well as other non-fans. I don't know how this is even a problem. I think WoW also tried to lure many WC fans. That's how things are done.
I'm not sure what you're talking about in regards to competitors and KotOR 3.
As for only the MMORPG and luring people into one pit alone...

I'm going to quote myself and tell you to read the entire thread again:

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Don't get me wrong though, I believe that doing both is financially viable and would prefer it if it was that way and on this we fully agree.

I think there is a market for both. Segments of those markets overlap, but I think the people who would play the MMO would also play the SP game.
Hey, at this point, they might indeed be thinking ahead. First let the MMO come out, let it garner some success and then decide to conclude the Revan trilogy. If the MMO is about the Mandalorian wars, people who did not play the original SPRPGs might decide to do so just to know what happens next. Then, conclude with K3 at a later date. Of course, this is just speculation on my part.
To clarify, I spoke later on of the strategy employed by Relic and their Dawn of War franchise, regarding to the second expansion, Dark Crusade, being a standalone:

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
To make it better, I'll mention one of Relic's strategies when making their expansion, Dark Crusade, a standalone game. Well, first off, you needed the original and the 1st x-pac to play with all the races in MP, but another was how they decided to use DC to attract people into playing the original and the first x-pac, Winter Assault. They thought:"Hey, if people like DC, they might want to play Dawn of War and Winter Assault,for the SP campaign." By the way, the SP campaigns in both games are pretty good.


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Old 11-06-2007, 05:42 PM   #199
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I just don't want them to do anything that would further delay Kotor 3. Other than that I am indifferent to the existence of a Kotor MMO. That would be the only reason it would affect my life in any way, either to screw up the timetable of K3, or if released on time, to make it more popular and maybe get it better support & patches if the MMO led to a bigger fan base for the SPRPG etc..
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Old 11-06-2007, 06:39 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Why not now? The franchise is still strong and in no way will anyone call it a desperate measure.
Not a desperate measure, but probably an pretty obvious attempt to turn a popular SPRPG into a MMORPG so that they can really cash in. I find that to be a pretty distasteful attempt to milk the fanbase of every penny. That's a personal opinion, sure. But...

1. I'm allowed to have a personal opinion, even if I'm alone with it.

2. I'm allowed to state my personal opinion, even if I'm alone with it.

3. If you look around, you'll see people on these boards who have already said that they refuse to pay the monthly fee, while I actually have not, though that should not to be taken as consent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Well, sure it has a racist overtone, but at the time I could find nothing better. However, it doesn't make it less of a good example. Why? I'll tell you why.

You based your entire argumentation on one thing: alienation of fanbase. You cited Enterprise as an example. Yet, there has been no proof of this. Outside of the first 2 pages of this thread, reaction has been more temperate and moderate. It is expected. Had this been an official announcement of K3 being made by Bioware, you'd have people up in arms denouncing how it's a bad news and that LA should have given the job to Obsidian.
Since the game has not been released or even details of it, then sure there is no proof. However, if I or anyone else still see the franchise about to take a turn that we don't like, then surely it is permissible to say so and argue why. If I see a plate on my table being so close to the edge that I fear it might fall and shatter, I don't just shrug it off with an attitude of "hey, there is no proof it'll fall, so who care?" No, I'll actually go and make certain it won't happen. Now, I can't do that in this case, obviously, but I can say that it's what I'm seeing, and I don't see anything wrong with doing so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
This is also why I thought you didn't read the entire thread properly; it seemed like your arguments ignore the more moderate points of view that came after the initial knee-jerk reaction.
So because some people don't see it the way I do, I shouldn't argue my position? That's akin to saying that if I say that 2+2=4, then I should stop doing so if only enough people say differently. That people disagree with me doesn't matter. Everyone could agree or disagree with me and it would still say nothing about whether I turn out to be right or not. It is simply a non-factor. Sure I have read what people have said. But since I apparently don't seem to agree with the majority of them, it stands to reason that I have not been swayed by their arguments, at least not yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Your argumentation of alienation is then based on what? Your opinion, which you have stated quite clearly, as well as those of a few other people who think like you. A KotOR MMORPG would alienate you and some others. Not for a second can you even remotely speak of alienating the fanbase, at this point in time.

You can claim whatever you want to claim, your argumentation does not lie: it is fully based on your personal opinion and not on a larger view of the KotOR community.
Yes...

Well, since it didn't work last time...

DISCLAIMER:

1. I am not nor do I claim to be in any way a representive of the KotOR net community or any other. While some people might agree with me, I do know know who or how numerous they are, nor will I make attempts to find out.

2. I have no and nor do claim to have any more knowledge beyond that which any other poster on this or any other public forum would reasonably have access to. I have no particular insights into KotOR or any other Star Wars related subject, and my conclusions and conjecture is entirely my own.

3. I do not claim in any way to be more intelligent than anyone else posting on this or any other public forum. If I appear to be, then that shall be the conclusion of the reader alone. If my arguments appear to be senseless and inane, that too shall be the conclusion of the reader and not mine.

4. My opinion does not, nor do I claim that it should, have more weight than anyone else's, nor matter in any way to anyone on this forum, another forum, or at Lucasarts or any other company beyond what what value such a party may themselves choose to apply to anything I say. In that case, I deny any association with such value myself.

5. I do not claim to be right about any opinion or speculation that I voice, nor do I claim that I'm in any way perfect to any degree where I might be considered above making mistakes.

6. Any speculation or conjecture I make is - to my knowledge - entirely my own, unless stated otherwise. In keeping with point 2 above (q.v.), any speculation on my part on what will or will not be the consequence of any decision or action on the part of Lucasarts or anyone else is entirely based on personal experience and suppositions on my part alone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
The question was approximately like this:

Which of these rumors would you want to be true?

-3 options that don't matter
-Bioware MMO = KotOR 33%
-GTA IV sporting a 16 player MP mode 35%

In no way is this truly significant, but it means that there's a market and that some people are interested in it. True, the readers of Gamespot.com aren't the entire world, but again, this poll still has some meaning. I think you're intelligent enough to know that I used the word "interest" in a positive manner.
Gee, thanks...

Given those choices it seems fairly obvious to me that most, if not all, KotOR-fan would pick that. Heck, as someone pointed out here a while ago (or was it on the Obsidian board...), just put Revan as an option in any poll, and people will choose him/her, even if he/she has absolutely no bearing on the poll.

Besides, the obvious problem with a poll like that is that (at least according to the choices you've presented) it does not seem to include anyone who want none of the options or who just don't care. I know that I have to be attracted to an option in a net-poll before I click anything. So if, say, 5000 people passed by one day, but a hundred wanted KotOR MMO and a little more wanted GTA4 with 16 players, then it looks spectacular, because such a high percentage wants this or that on a much-visited site, when actually the vast majority simply either hated all the options or just didn't care.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Some things about this part...

First, if this was an announcement that Petroglyph was having a partnership with LA for the development of some interactive experience based on the KotOR universe, nobody would give a damn.
Wrong. Somebody would. Because somebody always does. And whoever that person is and if he was the only person in the entire world that gave a damn, that's still one more person than "nobody".

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Yet, the two games would be totally different. I hardly think an RTS could convey this RPG character development and depth.
Which is the point I have been trying to make.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Second, the first element I highlighted. This is again why people tell you not to use argumentation based on your own personal opinion. I'm sorry if you don't like this, but it's true. You're saying, for a KotOR game to be successful, it would have to be the way you want it to be. If I reformulate it in a way that's not attackable:

"For me to enjoy a KotOR game, it would need to focus on the plot and character development, in order to generate an emotional attachment."

No talk about success or anything, only a pure personal opinion, no strings attached and nobody can contradict you.
You know, I should return the compliment and credit you with being intelligent enough to understand what I was getting at. I mentioned KotOR, yes, but only in relation to it being an SPRPG. I then argued some notable differences that are important to SPRPGs, and not merely to KotOR. But they are significant to KotOR because both games have been SPRPGs, and so it speaks to the fanbase as well. There are notable differences between SPRGPs, RTS games, and even MMORGPs that have to do with how much the games depend on plot and character-depth, since they essential to SPRGPs, but not particularly to the other games in my experience. I don't understand why you cannot bring yourself to at least consider and comment on this, when you are clearly able to read and respond to it and expect me to consider your position.

And while my own intellect may be rather limited, it is still keen enough to note that you now interpret what I'm saying, then rephrase it, then restate it with your own words that you then put in my mouth, before you finally argue against those very words. From what I know, this generally known as misrepresentation.

I suppose I'll have to repeat myself...

DISCLAIMER:

1. I am not nor do I claim to be in any way a representive of the KotOR net community or any other. While some people might agree with me, I do know know who or how numerous they are, nor will I make attempts to find out.

2. I have no and nor do claim to have any more knowledge beyond that which any other poster on this or any other public forum would reasonably have access to. I have no particular insights into KotOR or any other Star Wars related subject, and my conclusions and conjecture is entirely my own.

3. I do not claim in any way to be more intelligent than anyone else posting on this or any other public forum. If I appear to be, then that shall be the conclusion of the reader alone. If my arguments appear to be senseless and inane, that too shall be the conclusion of the reader and not mine.

4. My opinion does not, nor do I claim that it should, have more weight than anyone else's, nor matter in any way to anyone on this forum, another forum, or at Lucasarts or any other company beyond what what value such a party may themselves choose to apply to anything I say. In that case, I deny any association with such value myself.

5. I do not claim to be right about any opinion or speculation that I voice, nor do I claim that I'm in any way perfect to any degree where I might be considered above making mistakes.

6. Any speculation or conjecture I make is - to my knowledge - entirely my own, unless stated otherwise. In keeping with point 2 above (q.v.), any speculation on my part on what will or will not be the consequence of any decision or action on the part of Lucasarts or anyone else is entirely based on personal experience and suppositions on my part alone.

Now that I have - for the third time - stated that I do not claim to have particular insights or argue any other position then my own, can we discuss the topic instead of me?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Finally, the last segment highlighted, is totally unrepresentative of anything. I will discard it easily.
I should do that myself more often...

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
1. The main Warcraft characters already have a lot of backstory and not a lot of future. Sure, some fans can develop more, but I the current conjuncture in the Warcraft universe, with a greater focus on these lower class adventurers instead of main character demigods, due to World of Warcraft, it is entirely possible that writers simply don't give a rat's ass about them anyone and want to focus on their own stories in the world of Azeroth.
Of course, I base this on a conjunction of events and not on an absolute. I dare assume that people prefer to write new stories and few will focus on existing canon.
Right. So you do see a notable difference between that and KotOR, I take it? TSL, for example, has a completely open ending, meaning that the exile and likely Revan have lots of future in the plot, at least IMHO, which I cannot and do not claim to be anyone's but mine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
It is entirely possible that, had WC given more importance to character development, fanfiction would focus more strongly on maun characters. We'll never know.

2. Why should fanfiction even matter? How many fans of the entire KotOR community (remember, 1.3 million copies sold for the XBox) actually bother to write fanfiction? Too few to be of any factor.
You know, for someone who just argued that fan reaction to this topic being more temperate and moderate than mine has relevance, this seems like an odd argument, given that Lucasforums has a whole section devoted exclusively to KotOR-based fanfiction: http://www.lucasforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=640 - if the "more temperate and moderate" reactions to this topic have significance, then why don't the people who wrote all that fanfiction suddenly not matter in the equation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
1. Track record has little bearing. Hey, I admit, I was among those who were panicking about EA buying Bioware and Pandemic. However, it seems that everything is turning out fine for them. Hard to base any reasoning on pure track record. Companies are run by people and people can change...or you change the person at the head of the company. Anyway...
Several things here...

For someone who just called me on having no basis for arguing that the MMORPG would alienate the fanbase, this seems like a very odd thing to say, somehow. I mean, what proof - any proof - do you have that everything seems to be turning out fine for them?!? None. At all. We know nothing about what this will mean at the moment, because we have yet to see the fallout. So while I have no proof - and should apparently refrain from speculating on the basis of what I consider related situations of the past - and so should not state entirely personal opinions on the matter, it is okay for you to make a conclusion like this on no basis at all? What, a double standard is twice as good as a standard or what?

The other thing to mention here is the fairly obvious "those who refuse the learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat it"-analogy. LA does not have a good track record. Suggesting that it doesn't matter because people change is strange argument to me. The phrase "fool me one, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me" is begging to be spoken here. Or are you saying that if I cheated you twice, then you would be fine to give me the benefit of the doubt no problem a third time because, hey, people change? Somehow I doubt that... And LA does not have the best reputation in the business, when it comes to this sort of thing. Don't take my word for it, though - http://www.gamespy.com/articles/588/588057p1.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
2. Assuming it comes out at the same time. Let's assume the MMORPG, not based on K3, comes out in 2009. What stops K3 SPRPG to be released in 2011 or 2012? Nothing at all. In that case, no oversaturation of anything.
I actually agree completely with this, but it is also at the heart of the problem. If this is the timetable we're looking at for K3, then things look grim to me indeed, since it means the only new KotOR I can look forward to in the next four to five years are the comic books...

I like the comic books, but I'd like the game too, and a MMORPG does not sound like what I would consider "true" KotOR.

And those four years is from now, which is then at least six years after TSL to see how the open ending of TSL finally turns out. Sheesh, that's twice as long as the wait from "Empire" to "Jedi", which was more than long enough... That alone is reason enough for me to not want a MMORPG in the way of KotOR3, without even going into the question of whether it will alienate the fanbase or fit with the storytelling-genre.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
3. I'm seriously having a hard time figuring out what you're trying to say. An MMMORPG would try to lure many existing fans as well as other non-fans. I don't know how this is even a problem. I think WoW also tried to lure many WC fans. That's how things are done.
I'm not sure what you're talking about in regards to competitors and KotOR 3.
I'm speculating that a KotOR MMORPG can go two ways. If it succeeds, then LA cashes in and keeps the game going. In LA's eyes, this will then constantly postpone any "need" for a KotOR3 because "hey, the Kotorians are still playing and paying for the MMO, so they must be happy - they don't need KotOR3 yet", and so KotOR3 is growing more and more distant on the horizon. But if the game tanks, then it might be even worse, because LA might then be thinking, "Gee, nobody likes KotOR anymore... Well, we'll better not make any more games, then, since they don't sell, and the money would then be wasted on development." This latter point seems to me likely on the basis of LA not being particularly good at admitting to the strategic blunders they have made along the way. TSL is a prime example. They pushed the deadline and forced Obsidian to rush it. It sold, but the criticism was massive. That LA then nixed a content-patch Obsidian wanted to do and closed the possibility for one suggested to me that LA would rather let the game die than admit any wrongdoing on their own part. Hence we know have Team Gizka and Team Exile.


"It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built" - Kreia

Visit my KotOR blog at Deadly Forums.

Last edited by Jediphile; 11-06-2007 at 06:57 PM.
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