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Old 11-06-2007, 07:17 PM   #201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adamqd

...Bioware, and I would trust them with Kotor 3... In fact I'd insist on them doing it, but an MMO could be bad news for the Old Republic...
i agree, mmo would suck bizzallz. if they do one, at least keep the kotor story seperate but use the same universe and events.


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Old 11-06-2007, 08:17 PM   #202
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Let’s put it this way.

Now I'm a patient man, that's what 19 months in a Vietnamese prison camp will do to you...

TESB came out in 1980, didn't it? Well let’s say TESB is TSL. So, it's 1983 and the sequel we've all been dieing to see, RotJ, hasn't even been announced yet! In the meanwhile, there's been credible speculation that Lucas' next movie will be Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom, instead of RotJ, which no one knows if it’s even coming out yet or not.

So, there is support for this Indiana Jones sequel to come out, but let’s say Lucas could only make one movie at a time. Well, it's been three years and the sequel that TESB so desperately needs, still hasn't arrived yet.

Okay fine, make the IJ sequel {let’s say the original came out in 1982 instead} but do RotJ first. It's not fair on those of us who saw ESB to have to wait another two or three more years for RotJ to come out, compared to the IJ fans, who only have to wait two years.

In other words, LA should get their priorities right. Sure, a KotOR MMO will most likely make LA more money and hell, there may even be more support for it, but the fact of the matter is, there are still loyal fans who’d prefer that SP K3 sequel to come out first.

You’ve already lets us down once, LA. Don’t do it again. It’s no way to treat your customers. It’s like watching two thirds of a movie you’ve never seen before at the cinemas.

You’re really enjoying it, only umm... sorry to those of you who were liking it, but we’re going to cross over to another movie for two hours, because all these other people want to see it. But don’t worry, just sit tight, shut up and wait. Eventually we’ll get back to you.

Whatever happened to equality in the customer service business? That’s the way I feel about this. It’s like as if you’re having a great party, then bam, it gets gatecrashed by all these jerks you’ve never met before. Call it a selfish view on this if you want, but I beg to differ that it is.


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Old 11-06-2007, 08:31 PM   #203
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Architect, i couldn't've said it better myself.


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Old 11-06-2007, 09:19 PM   #204
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Lukeiamyourdad and Jediphile, if you two aren't already lawyers, then I suggest looking into law school lol.

I'm gonna laugh if this turns out to be an RTS Howard the Duck game. Then I'll cry right after......

Anyone have any guesses as to when we might get some official word on what exactly the game is they are working on? After Mass Effect is relased perhaps? Before the end of the year?

Millnsy also brings up an interesting point, I just noticed yesterday myself that Bioware added a new next gen game [currently un-named] to their line up....just below the MMO. The plot thickens.....

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Old 11-06-2007, 09:38 PM   #205
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@Architect: You mean like how Indiana Jones fans had a movie in between the re-release of ANH, ESB and RotJ, new releases of Phantom Menace, Attack of the Clones, and Revenge of the Sith? OR like how the fans of the IJ video games have had how many games as opposed to SW games? Fairness has NOTHING to do with it.
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Old 11-06-2007, 09:42 PM   #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leemu Taos
Millnsy also brings up an interesting point, I just noticed yesterday myself that Bioware added a new next gen game [currently un-named] to their line up....just below the MMO. The plot thickens.....
IIRC, the "New Next Gen Game" underneath Sonic DS on BioWare's In Development Games menu on their website was listed there even before BioWare announced they were working on an MMO.


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Old 11-06-2007, 10:03 PM   #207
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Yes it does, because it’s not the same situation as that.

You see, TSL was meant to have a sequel. Avellone said so himself. He wrote the plot for it to intentionally have a follow up. Maybe that was the mistake...

We’ve waited for nearly three years and there still hasn’t even been an announcement that the game will be made. Now there’s a possibility that the line of SPRPG KotOR games are going to be killed off by MMORPG/s.

It’s not fair to those of us who at least want one more SPRPG KotOR game that in all honesty, is needed, to wrap things up. Okay fine, make a KotOR based MMORPG to please those who’d want or even prefer that, but do it without walking all over us who are in support of a SPRPG of KotOR III.

Look at the success of the sales of KotOR and TSL. There is clearly good enough support for a SP K3 to be a financial success. To me if no K3 SPRPG is ever made, then it’s like never releasing RotJ after TESB.

You simply cannot wrap up TSL via a MMORPG of KotOR3. So in other words, all I’m asking is, if a new SW MMORPG is indeed going to be made, then make sure it has nothing to do with following up TSL.

It would be far more rational, feasible and effectual to wrap up TSL from a developers point of view via making a SPRPG, not a MMORPG. That’s another argument I have against this. Think about them too.

After all, not all of us don't appreciate plot...


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Old 11-06-2007, 10:43 PM   #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leemu Taos
Anyone have any guesses as to when we might get some official word on what exactly the game is they are working on? After Mass Effect is relased perhaps? Before the end of the year?
Well if the game is a Star Wars mmo, it will be when SOE's contract ends I would assume. But if not then your guess is as good as mine. Hopefully sooner than later.


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Old 11-06-2007, 10:45 PM   #209
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I am going to be dead honest. I don't really want it to be the mmo. Really just need KOTOR 3. They need to clean up the mess they had with TSL, and tie up some loose ends from K1. If it is the MMO, however, I can deal with it. Just would much rather have K3.


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Old 11-06-2007, 10:46 PM   #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Not a desperate measure, but probably an pretty obvious attempt to turn a popular SPRPG into a MMORPG so that they can really cash in. I find that to be a pretty distasteful attempt to milk the fanbase of every penny. That's a personal opinion, sure. But...

1. I'm allowed to have a personal opinion, even if I'm alone with it.

2. I'm allowed to state my personal opinion, even if I'm alone with it.

3. If you look around, you'll see people on these boards who have already said that they refuse to pay the monthly fee, while I actually have not, though that should not to be taken as consent.
1. When did I deny this?

2. When did I deny this?

3. Yeah, some people don't want to pay a monthly fee, so? Representative of who?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Since the game has not been released or even details of it, then sure there is no proof. However, if I or anyone else still see the franchise about to take a turn that we don't like, then surely it is permissible to say so and argue why. If I see a plate on my table being so close to the edge that I fear it might fall and shatter, I don't just shrug it off with an attitude of "hey, there is no proof it'll fall, so who care?" No, I'll actually go and make certain it won't happen. Now, I can't do that in this case, obviously, but I can say that it's what I'm seeing, and I don't see anything wrong with doing so.
It is possible to state your opinion. Again, there is nothing wrong. There is nothing wrong with having a reasoning to back up an opinion. It is wrong however, to believe that one's opinion is representative of a group, without its consent or proper research. It is also wrong to believe that one's opinion is fact.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
So because some people don't see it the way I do, I shouldn't argue my position? That's akin to saying that if I say that 2+2=4, then I should stop doing so if only enough people say differently. That people disagree with me doesn't matter. Everyone could agree or disagree with me and it would still say nothing about whether I turn out to be right or not. It is simply a non-factor. Sure I have read what people have said. But since I apparently don't seem to agree with the majority of them, it stands to reason that I have not been swayed by their arguments, at least not yet.
Swayed? Who wants to sway your opinion? I'm not talking about opinion here, I'm talking about facts. You keep taking your opinion for facts.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Yes...

Well, since it didn't work last time...
Fine man, if you want to keep believing your opinions are fact, suit yourself. If you don't want to fully assume what you write fine. Your wording betrays your claims. If you don't think so, fine, sleep better at night.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Gee, thanks...

Given those choices it seems fairly obvious to me that most, if not all, KotOR-fan would pick that. Heck, as someone pointed out here a while ago (or was it on the Obsidian board...), just put Revan as an option in any poll, and people will choose him/her, even if he/she has absolutely no bearing on the poll.

Besides, the obvious problem with a poll like that is that (at least according to the choices you've presented) it does not seem to include anyone who want none of the options or who just don't care. I know that I have to be attracted to an option in a net-poll before I click anything. So if, say, 5000 people passed by one day, but a hundred wanted KotOR MMO and a little more wanted GTA4 with 16 players, then it looks spectacular, because such a high percentage wants this or that on a much-visited site, when actually the vast majority simply either hated all the options or just didn't care.

Ugh, that was not my point at all. It only shows the existence of an interest into a KotOR MMO.

Of course, you can't seriously believe that such a poll is comparable with one including Revan? Why would every KotOR fan pick the MMO option? You said it yourself, the vast majority probably didn't care. Just because KotOR was in the list doesn't mean that people automatically choose it. I don't know how that's even a logical conclusion.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Wrong. Somebody would. Because somebody always does. And whoever that person is and if he was the only person in the entire world that gave a damn, that's still one more person than "nobody".
Sure one person, somewhere will be pissed. Doesn't mean anything though, if you want, I'll change it to something else, reflecting something more nuanced, speaking of how the vast majority would not care.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Which is the point I have been trying to make.
? Out of context quoting? My point is that an RTS would not have the character development an RPG would have and that few would care about that.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
You know, I should return the compliment and credit you with being intelligent enough to understand what I was getting at. I mentioned KotOR, yes, but only in relation to it being an SPRPG. I then argued some notable differences that are important to SPRPGs, and not merely to KotOR. But they are significant to KotOR because both games have been SPRPGs, and so it speaks to the fanbase as well. There are notable differences between SPRGPs, RTS games, and even MMORGPs that have to do with how much the games depend on plot and character-depth, since they essential to SPRGPs, but not particularly to the other games in my experience. I don't understand why you cannot bring yourself to at least consider and comment on this, when you are clearly able to read and respond to it and expect me to consider your position.

I do not consider it because I already answered it in an older post. Through your logic, no Star Wars game should be made because it does not fit the fanbase who prefer non-interactive moving pictures to interactive entertainment. KotOR, the label, is not representative of only two video games, but also of comic books right now. Many things can develop around the KotOR universe that has nothing to do with SPRPG or heavy character development. Did LotR fan cry when they made Battle for Middle-Earth? Sure some did, but it did not stop production, nor was it a failure in any way. Yet, it was a foray into another genre that in the end, had little to do with the original material.

In no way I am denying anything about SPRPGs being not different from other genres, I'm denying it being a necessity for the success of a game in a whole different genre but based on the same universe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
And while my own intellect may be rather limited, it is still keen enough to note that you now interpret what I'm saying, then rephrase it, then restate it with your own words that you then put in my mouth, before you finally argue against those very words. From what I know, this generally known as misrepresentation.
Do not accuse me of such. I have not misrepresented your words or rephrased them in any way. By the way, writing is subject to interpretation.

This is the exact quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
To be successful games, the characters must spark something among the players, so that we have an emotional investment in them.
To put it into context, return and look it up.

It is opinion taken as fact. A game can only be successful according to your principles. Assume your words, retract or clarify.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Right. So you do see a notable difference between that and KotOR, I take it? TSL, for example, has a completely open ending, meaning that the exile and likely Revan have lots of future in the plot, at least IMHO, which I cannot and do not claim to be anyone's but mine.

You know, for someone who just argued that fan reaction to this topic being more temperate and moderate than mine has relevance, this seems like an odd argument, given that Lucasforums has a whole section devoted exclusively to KotOR-based fanfiction: http://www.lucasforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=640 - if the "more temperate and moderate" reactions to this topic have significance, then why don't the people who wrote all that fanfiction suddenly not matter in the equation?
Yeah, so they have a section, so what? 1.3 million copies sold for the XBox. The fan fiction writers are hardly representative of very significantly large group among fandom. Another thing...do all fan fiction writers think like you do? I'm not certain.
Finally, on the significance of moderate reactions do have a significance. There is obviously people who would like the idea, based on the Gamespot poll and the strange amount of attention this is getting among the gaming media in general. To be honest, if fan fiction writers wanted to post their opinion here, they definitely can.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Several things here...

For someone who just called me on having no basis for arguing that the MMORPG would alienate the fanbase, this seems like a very odd thing to say, somehow. I mean, what proof - any proof - do you have that everything seems to be turning out fine for them?!? None. At all. We know nothing about what this will mean at the moment, because we have yet to see the fallout. So while I have no proof - and should apparently refrain from speculating on the basis of what I consider related situations of the past - and so should not state entirely personal opinions on the matter, it is okay for you to make a conclusion like this on no basis at all? What, a double standard is twice as good as a standard or what?

It's not an opinion. It seems to be turning out fine for them because of new management at EA and they have been allowed to continue with their partnership with LucasArts, continue to make their Sonic RPG. You're right that it's not huge proof, but it does indicate that EA is not strangling Bioware for now. What will happen in the future? I don't know, but up to now, nothing bad has happened and no future game seems to be threatened.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
The other thing to mention here is the fairly obvious "those who refuse the learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat it"-analogy. LA does not have a good track record. Suggesting that it doesn't matter because people change is strange argument to me. The phrase "fool me one, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me" is begging to be spoken here. Or are you saying that if I cheated you twice, then you would be fine to give me the benefit of the doubt no problem a third time because, hey, people change? Somehow I doubt that... And LA does not have the best reputation in the business, when it comes to this sort of thing. Don't take my word for it, though - http://www.gamespy.com/articles/588/588057p1.html
Wait, so, according to you, I shouldn't befriend a German guy because he might go Nazi on me because history says so?
First, that was written in 2005, before the management change and the focus on fewer titles.
Second, it is true that they don't have the best track record in terms of offering decent timetables but...the article does say that LA cannot bully Bioware. Who's involved here? Bioware.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
I actually agree completely with this, but it is also at the heart of the problem. If this is the timetable we're looking at for K3, then things look grim to me indeed, since it means the only new KotOR I can look forward to in the next four to five years are the comic books...

I like the comic books, but I'd like the game too, and a MMORPG does not sound like what I would consider "true" KotOR.

And those four years is from now, which is then at least six years after TSL to see how the open ending of TSL finally turns out. Sheesh, that's twice as long as the wait from "Empire" to "Jedi", which was more than long enough... That alone is reason enough for me to not want a MMORPG in the way of KotOR3, without even going into the question of whether it will alienate the fanbase or fit with the storytelling-genre.
I'm still waiting for the continuation of the StarCraft story. It has been 9 years since the original. Life is unfair.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
I'm speculating that a KotOR MMORPG can go two ways. If it succeeds, then LA cashes in and keeps the game going. In LA's eyes, this will then constantly postpone any "need" for a KotOR3 because "hey, the Kotorians are still playing and paying for the MMO, so they must be happy - they don't need KotOR3 yet", and so KotOR3 is growing more and more distant on the horizon. But if the game tanks, then it might be even worse, because LA might then be thinking, "Gee, nobody likes KotOR anymore... Well, we'll better not make any more games, then, since they don't sell, and the money would then be wasted on development." This latter point seems to me likely on the basis of LA not being particularly good at admitting to the strategic blunders they have made along the way. TSL is a prime example. They pushed the deadline and forced Obsidian to rush it. It sold, but the criticism was massive. That LA then nixed a content-patch Obsidian wanted to do and closed the possibility for one suggested to me that LA would rather let the game die than admit any wrongdoing on their own part. Hence we know have Team Gizka and Team Exile.
No no, you assume that the market for a KotOR SPRPG and a KotOR MMORPG fully overlap. That is simply not the case. In no way would a successful MMORPG cancel a K3. I believe that tackling both games is commercially and financially viable.

TSL did not garner massive criticism outside of a few factions the fandom. The game has been positively reviewed. Many do point out the lack of polish, but I can hardly consider that massive criticism. I suppose that those who yell really loud always make it seem like a huge group are screaming along...

At any rate, I think the content patch was not possible for many reasons and that has nothing to do with LA admitting or not any wrongdoing.

It is entirely plausible that developing a content patch might not have been financially doable.
It is also entirely plausible that developing a content patch might hurt the prestige of a company, when they don't consider it necessary. I mean, the cut content hardly breaks the game. This is no gamebreaking bug. In that sense and the fact that it's an SP only game, why bother supporting it? SP games die very quickly and since neither the first nor the second are incredibly mod friendly, might as well let it die.


Edit: Edited a word I miswrote. Changed postpone to cancel. Didn't notice the error.


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Old 11-06-2007, 10:57 PM   #211
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Ok then how about releasing Willow, Tucker, Land before Time etc before Last Crusade.... Again. Your example has plenty of counter evidence that suggests such things happened all the time.

First off, there is NO evidence that the KotOR line of SPRPG's are being killed off by an MMO. There is semi-credible evidence suggesting an MMO based in the KotOR time period, but not that it will replace the SPRPG.

Of course you tout the sales figures of the SP game, so I'll state that simpley even with the lower subscription rates Galaxies STILL pulls in more than KOTOR and TSL. It makes more financial sense to release an MMO than the SP game. SP game you buy once, and unless the disk breaks, that's the only time you will buy it. You spend $60(assuming it isn't in the bargain bin when you buy it) and have it forever. where as teh MMO player will buy the game(or even if it's a free download) and spend 10-15 per month for an average of more than 6 months.

Then there are the software pirates out there who never buy the actual game. They cannot do that with an MMO. They spend nothing and get to have the game.

Form a developer's standpoint, I would rather work on an MMO. There is always work to be done. I won't be canned the next day because the game is done.

The story can be deeper in an MMO. It can be more involved. It can have more to it. You can develop your own character into who you want. You can really search the path of the exile and Revan. You can have more than one plot going. You might for instance have the plot of finding the True Sith, Seeking out the Exile, Recovering the Ebon Hawk, Finding your connection to the Force, and more.

You can really explore the worlds rather than the small map. I know I wanted to see more of Taris than I did. I wanted to really explore Nar Shadaa. I mean read the Wiki on the planets we visited in the games. Onderon, We never left the walls of the city. And as for plot, Sorry, but plot development in both games felt too rushed. Granted in TSL you had more choices, but really, it was too directed. Add to it that it can be open ended, and you have one game that would take SEVERAL SP games to fit it all into.
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Old 11-06-2007, 11:51 PM   #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leemu Taos
Anyone have any guesses as to when we might get some official word on what exactly the game is they are working on? After Mass Effect is relased perhaps? Before the end of the year?

Millnsy also brings up an interesting point, I just noticed yesterday myself that Bioware added a new next gen game [currently un-named] to their line up....just below the MMO. The plot thickens.....

I'll be willing to bet that we'll hear something in the weeks after the release of Mass Effect in late Nov. Bioware probably wants all of the hype to be centered around Mass Effect right now and once it is released, they will probably whet our appetites once more with details of the new game.

The "New Next Gen Game" has been in the dropdown list of games pretty much ever since developers started making games for the 360/ps3/wii. You have never been able to click on it though. If it were the new Lucasarts game, clicking on it should direct you to the press release, but this is not the case.

Just out of curiosity, when will SOE's current contract with LA expire??
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Old 11-07-2007, 12:09 AM   #213
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More likely, we'll get a "leaked" screenshot, beginning of next year(after holiday silliness). Official announcement in June. Official site open in June. Beta in October. Possible Christmas release, but more likely a Summer 09 release(APR/May).
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Old 11-07-2007, 01:07 AM   #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Char Ell
IIRC, the "New Next Gen Game" underneath Sonic DS on BioWare's In Development Games menu on their website was listed there even before BioWare announced they were working on an MMO.
Ahh, well I'm pretty sure my excitement about seeing a Bioware mmo listing blinded me....lol.

Quote:
Just out of curiosity, when will SOE's current contract with LA expire??
I have heard that SoE has exclusive rights til June '08....which would mean it was a five year deal. But with all the happenings to that game over the years it's hard to know what is what.

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Old 11-07-2007, 07:13 AM   #215
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I've been thinking about this announcement a bit more. Assuming the LucasArts/BioWare project is indeed a MMORPG (hypothetically speaking if you must ), what are the chances that it will be released for multiple platforms, e.g. PC, Xbox 360, and PS 3? What do you all think?


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Old 11-07-2007, 07:19 AM   #216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leemu Taos
I have heard that SoE has exclusive rights til June '08....which would mean it was a five year deal. But with all the happenings to that game over the years it's hard to know what is what.
Funny thing is my timeline of predicted events fits with this.... Scary....

Either way, even if it isn't KotOR I'll at least try it. Mainly because there are so few sci-fi based MMO's out there, and I actually think Bioware can pull off a good RPG, whether it is KotOR or not.
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Old 11-07-2007, 12:06 PM   #217
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Quote:
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I've been thinking about this announcement a bit more. Assuming the LucasArts/BioWare project is indeed a MMORPG (hypothetically speaking if you must ), what are the chances that it will be released for multiple platforms, e.g. PC, Xbox 360, and PS 3? What do you all think?

As far as I know, the PC heavily dominates the market for MMORPGs. The chances of a multiplatform release is relatively low. It would split their post-sale support resources. Personally, I wouldn't do that.

Even so, think of it like the RTS. No matter what you're going to try, the PC is still going to be number one for the genre due to technical limitations. No one can deny that the mouse and keyboard are much better for playing an RTS then a control pad. The relatively complex UI of an MMORPG, the requirement of a keyboard for chat and the speed required for various commands are factors I think would make the use of a controller a magnificent source of frustration.

Note: Yes, I realize that Final Fantasy XI exists, but I still think that it's not very console friendly and you would need to buy a keyboard and mouse to have a good experience which kills the purpose of a multiplatform release.


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Old 11-07-2007, 01:29 PM   #218
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
1. When did I deny this?

2. When did I deny this?
Given that you have consistently criticised me for voicing my opinion, it seems a herculean task indeed to reach any other conclusion...

Then again, you could simply stop doing so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
3. Yeah, some people don't want to pay a monthly fee, so? Representative of who?
Ask them, since - as I said - I'm not one of them. I can presume it's permissible for me to say that these people exist, yes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
It is possible to state your opinion. Again, there is nothing wrong. There is nothing wrong with having a reasoning to back up an opinion. It is wrong however, to believe that one's opinion is representative of a group, without its consent or proper research. It is also wrong to believe that one's opinion is fact.
Nor have I done so, despite your attempts to infer it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Swayed? Who wants to sway your opinion? I'm not talking about opinion here, I'm talking about facts. You keep taking your opinion for facts.
No. I don't. I have consistently said otherwise. I have consistently said it's speculation. If you insist on seeing it as something else, then that's your business, so please don't involve me in it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Fine man, if you want to keep believing your opinions are fact, suit yourself. If you don't want to fully assume what you write fine. Your wording betrays your claims. If you don't think so, fine, sleep better at night.
[sigh]

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1. I am not nor do I claim to be in any way a representive of the KotOR net community or any other. While some people might agree with me, I do know know who or how numerous they are, nor will I make attempts to find out.

2. I have no and nor do claim to have any more knowledge beyond that which any other poster on this or any other public forum would reasonably have access to. I have no particular insights into KotOR or any other Star Wars related subject, and my conclusions and conjecture is entirely my own.

3. I do not claim in any way to be more intelligent than anyone else posting on this or any other public forum. If I appear to be, then that shall be the conclusion of the reader alone. If my arguments appear to be senseless and inane, that too shall be the conclusion of the reader and not mine.

4. My opinion does not, nor do I claim that it should, have more weight than anyone else's, nor matter in any way to anyone on this forum, another forum, or at Lucasarts or any other company beyond what what value such a party may themselves choose to apply to anything I say. In that case, I deny any association with such value myself.

5. I do not claim to be right about any opinion or speculation that I voice, nor do I claim that I'm in any way perfect to any degree where I might be considered above making mistakes.

6. Any speculation or conjecture I make is - to my knowledge - entirely my own, unless stated otherwise. In keeping with point 2 above (q.v.), any speculation on my part on what will or will not be the consequence of any decision or action on the part of Lucasarts or anyone else is entirely based on personal experience and suppositions on my part alone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Ugh, that was not my point at all. It only shows the existence of an interest into a KotOR MMO.
Whether it was your point or not has no bearing on whether it is relevant to the discussion. If you're not willing to look at the problems of methodology involved with polls or what they can or cannot be interpreted to mean, then you're probably better of not referring to them as a basis for your position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Sure one person, somewhere will be pissed. Doesn't mean anything though, if you want, I'll change it to something else, reflecting something more nuanced, speaking of how the vast majority would not care.
Except we don't know that either...

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
? Out of context quoting? My point is that an RTS would not have the character development an RPG would have and that few would care about that.
Which is why it would matter less to a franchise that goes from RTS to MMORPG than it does from SPRPG to MMORPG, yes. I'm relieved that you see that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
I do not consider it because I already answered it in an older post.
Then what's wrong with me saying it? Is it now a problem if we actually find something we can agree on?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Through your logic, no Star Wars game should be made because it does not fit the fanbase who prefer non-interactive moving pictures to interactive entertainment. KotOR, the label, is not representative of only two video games, but also of comic books right now.
And comic books are non-interactive media, which means that it follows that the focus is on strong plot and depth of the characters involved. Just as it happens to be in the KotOR games. Fits nicely, doesn't it? Indeed, no KotOR product yet released that I've ever heard of places more focus on co-operative play and participation in game's universe than it does on strong plot and deep characters. Why is it not logical to conclude to that this speaks to the fanbase?

You may like the MMORPG idea, but you still played the SPRPGs even though they were not MMOs. A casual look on just this board leaves me with the inescapable conclusion that this does not apply to all KotOR-fans, since I'm not the only to voice preference for the SPRPG. The logical conclusion from that observation would seem to be that the fanbase would probably support a SPRPG K3, while you just don't know about an MMORPG. If that is the case, then which game does it make more sense to make? The MMORPG might cash in more money, yes, but it would both be more costly (keeping up servers, reprogramming bugs, updating the rules, etc. - which you don't do for the SPRPG), and it might also not catch on with the fanbase.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Many things can develop around the KotOR universe that has nothing to do with SPRPG or heavy character development. Did LotR fan cry when they made Battle for Middle-Earth? Sure some did, but it did not stop production, nor was it a failure in any way. Yet, it was a foray into another genre that in the end, had little to do with the original material.
This is a really bad example, since LOTR has been spread out over far, far more game genres over the years than even Star Wars itself. So I don't see that it is relevant to KotOR, which - as you say yourself - has so far been done only in SPRPG games and comic books, which all have their focus on the plot and the characters above all else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
In no way I am denying anything about SPRPGs being not different from other genres, I'm denying it being a necessity for the success of a game in a whole different genre but based on the same universe.
The universe is Star Wars. There is already a MMORPG for that, and if LA wants to do another one, then go right ahead. KotOR, however, is a niche inside the Star Wars universe, and one that has so far based all it's products on media that have focus on plot and depth of character. There are people who like KotOR because it stays true to those characteristics. There are even fans who thought - and I'm NOT one of them - the mini-games (turret-shooting, swoop-bikes) should have been simply cut from TSL instead of being made optional. Doesn't that say something about the fanbase too?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Do not accuse me of such. I have not misrepresented your words or rephrased them in any way. By the way, writing is subject to interpretation.

This is the exact quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
To be successful games, the characters must spark something among the players, so that we have an emotional investment in them.
Yes, which you then rephrased and then respond to as if I had said what you yourself wrote. Not particularly polite.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Second, the first element I highlighted. This is again why people tell you not to use argumentation based on your own personal opinion. I'm sorry if you don't like this, but it's true. You're saying, for a KotOR game to be successful, it would have to be the way you want it to be. If I reformulate it in a way that's not attackable:

"For me to enjoy a KotOR game, it would need to focus on the plot and character development, in order to generate an emotional attachment."

No talk about success or anything, only a pure personal opinion, no strings attached and nobody can contradict you.
Note the quotation marks? That's you quoting me for something I have not said. What I said was that the characters in SPRPGs must spark something with the players, so they have an emotional investment in them, if the games are to be successful.

And that's an interpretation on my part. You cannot say that I state it a factual, unless you're going to insist that we should all put "I think" or similar in front of any and all opinions that are stated. If that's what you want, then fine. I have no problem with it. I have done so in the past, when people accused me of speaking factually when I dared to argue in favor of my position. Yet they did not seem very pleased with the outcome, when I began pointing out my opinions as such, since it cluttered up the arguments endlessly.

Generally it is assumed that something is opinion unless there are factual references stated in support. Since I have not done so and repeatedly said I speak from opinion, that is not the case.

So yes, you DID misrepresent me. You rephrased my words, restated them as you preferred me to have said them, then criticized me for the restated words that were not mine. If you don't like me pointing that out, then you can simply stop doing so.

And just to finish this off: If the words you quote me for here are the same as what you restated them into, then why did you not simply quote me correctly in the first place and then respond to that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Yeah, so they have a section, so what? 1.3 million copies sold for the XBox. The fan fiction writers are hardly representative of very significantly large group among fandom. Another thing...do all fan fiction writers think like you do? I'm not certain.
Ask them, since I don't write fanfiction. At least not for Star Wars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Finally, on the significance of moderate reactions do have a significance. There is obviously people who would like the idea, based on the Gamespot poll and the strange amount of attention this is getting among the gaming media in general. To be honest, if fan fiction writers wanted to post their opinion here, they definitely can.
I find it staggering that you would consider those who made moderate reactions to the MMORPG and the unknown number of people on Gamespot who voted for the MMO significant even as you casually dismiss all those people who care enough about KotOR to sit down and write fanfiction. You have no idea how many people have posted fanfiction. Indeed, any and all of the 1.3 million Xbox-users you apply so much value to could all have written fanfiction, for all we know. You'll forgive me if I apply signficance to the fact (see, a fact, and stated as such) that Lucasforums has decided to dedicate an entire section of the site solely toward that end.

From that I cannot escape the conclusion - and that is MY conclusion alone - that you consider only those people who agree with you to be significant, while those who do not simply do not matter...

Who are YOU a representative of?

What is YOUR proof?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
It's not an opinion. It seems to be turning out fine for them because of new management at EA and they have been allowed to continue with their partnership with LucasArts, continue to make their Sonic RPG. You're right that it's not huge proof, but it does indicate that EA is not strangling Bioware for now. What will happen in the future? I don't know, but up to now, nothing bad has happened and no future game seems to be threatened.
It's not proof at all, just speculation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Like it's been said, you're not going to hear any employees complain about this openly now, because nobody is going to start off criticising the new boss. What would be the point of that? After all, even if Bioware employees dislike EA, what good will it do them to voice displeasure? It'll just cost them their jobs, and it'll look bad when they're looking for the next one either way.
I can speak to this. Employees in these sorts of companies typically are bound by conduct regulations that prevent them from opening speaking unfavorably about their employer. In my contract I am prevented from saying such things. So the silence from bioware employees contractually mandated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Want to know what Bioware employees think of it? Watch how many of them quietly leave in the next couple of months...
That is by far the best indicator. But the biggest disappointment is that even if "all" the important people leave and go elsewhere, they can't take their properties with them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Wait, so, according to you, I shouldn't befriend a German guy because he might go Nazi on me because history says so?
Sophistry. A german does not equal a nazi. Even during WW2 a german did not equal a nazi, and those people have long since died of old age. Well, the vast majority, anyway.

Oh, and congratulations on bringing nazi Germany into the discussion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
First, that was written in 2005, before the management change and the focus on fewer titles.
Second, it is true that they don't have the best track record in terms of offering decent timetables but...the article does say that LA cannot bully Bioware. Who's involved here? Bioware.
Yes, but then Bioware is not it's own master anymore... That bit of history has changed too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
I'm still waiting for the continuation of the StarCraft story. It has been 9 years since the original. Life is unfair.
Frequently, yes. But is that a reason to axe KotOR3? After all, that is a choice, not simply "bad stuff that unfortunately happens".

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
No no, you assume that the market for a KotOR SPRPG and a KotOR MMORPG fully overlap. That is simply not the case. In no way would a successful MMORPG postpone a K3. I believe that tackling both games is commercially and financially viable.
And again you interpret what I say and reach the wrong conclusion.

No, I do NOT assume that a KotOR SPRPG and KotOR MMORPG fully overlap, and I have not said that either.

I assume that an overlap will exist to some degree - that the games would have an overlap of a portion of the same audience. I then conclude that some of that audience in that overlap will go one or the other, but not both. If that is the case, then I assume LA will lose money, because they could have made money for both games from that portion of the audience that overlap, had they not released the games at the same time. I further assume that LA would see this and so not release the games simultaneously.

And why are you even saying a MMO KotOR would not postpone a K3 when you already put the timetable for K3 around 2010-2011 well after the MMO in your last post?!?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
TSL did not garner massive criticism outside of a few factions the fandom. The game has been positively reviewed. Many do point out the lack of polish, but I can hardly consider that massive criticism. I suppose that those who yell really loud always make it seem like a huge group are screaming along...
Well, I disagree with that interpretation - not fact - of TSL (and please note that I simply acknowledge this rather clobber you over the head for it). The game received positive reviews, yes, but it was also frequently criticized for the cut content and lack of updates on many occasions. I've already posted one link to an article saying so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
Critical reaction

The game was generally well received by fans and critics alike. Mirroring the success of the first game, The Sith Lords has garnered over thirty-five "Game of the Year" awards.[7] The game received high marks from major reviewers - 8.5/10 from Gamespot, 4.5/5 from Gamespy and 93% from IGN. Based on 30 professional reviews, Metacritic gave the game an average rating of 85 out of 100,[8] compared 93 for Knights of the Old Republic.[9] [b]The game was however criticized for being incomplete due to a rushed deadline]/b].
The funny thing about TSL is that while many of us criticise it for the cut content, we still like and play the game. I personally think that speaks to the strength of Avellone's plot. YMMV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
At any rate, I think the content patch was not possible for many reasons and that has nothing to do with LA admitting or not any wrongdoing.
http://www.lucasforums.com/showpost....&postcount=283


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Old 11-07-2007, 03:23 PM   #219
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Chillax guys, there's room enough for everyone's opinions.

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Originally Posted by Char Ell
I've been thinking about this announcement a bit more. Assuming the LucasArts/BioWare project is indeed a MMORPG (hypothetically speaking if you must ), what are the chances that it will be released for multiple platforms, e.g. PC, Xbox 360, and PS 3? What do you all think?
I know nothing about MMOs ... do they normally provide cross-platform support simulataneously? Can a person with an Xbox normally play with someone on a PS3 in other MMOs?


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Old 11-07-2007, 03:26 PM   #220
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I don't even know if there are any MMOs for consoles, are there? My guess would be that if the game is an MMO, it will be PC-only. And if they can make it cross-platform, the most I could see it being on is Xbox 360.


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Old 11-07-2007, 03:38 PM   #221
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The amount of nerd rage in this thread is so thick. xD

And the only console MMO I know of is FFXI (which is wretched anyway, so I don't know why anyone would play it).

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Old 11-07-2007, 04:16 PM   #222
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I was about to post a reply to Jediphile, but I see people would prefer it to stop. I somewhat agree that it has dragged on for long enough and that it has come to circular arguments, to which there is no end.

Then again, I'm hotblooded and Vietnamese. Among us, there is no such thing as turn the other cheek, there's only eye for a 7.62mm bullet in your head from an AK-47 fired at a distance of 3 feet while hiding in some bushes.

Add to that the fact that I study political science. Go figure...

In no way do I not respect Jediphile. I prefer someone who can stand up for himself to someone who bows down whenever in the face of a confrontation. I harbor no ill feelings.
Hey, I remember trying to rip off Totenkopf's head in Kavar's corner, yet I think he's one of the smartest most intelligent persons here and I greatly respect him.

I could go on with the debate, I would love to, but it's over.

Carry on...


MMO on consoles:

I'm not sure if this possible, but if they allowed people playing on consoles to play with people on PC, it could be interesting. I'm not sure if it's feasible anyway.

And yes, FFXI does suck.


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Old 11-07-2007, 06:41 PM   #223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
MMO on consoles:

I'm not sure if this possible, but if they allowed people playing on consoles to play with people on PC, it could be interesting. I'm not sure if it's feasible anyway.

And yes, FFXI does suck.

Might be possible, I can't see why it wouldn't. The 360 players can play some games with PC players, and I think that these MMO wouldn't be an exception. But that would only happen on the 360.

Well, there are some other MMOs for consoles, like Everquest...


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Old 11-08-2007, 01:30 PM   #224
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Back on topic please. This thread is not about what you think of each other but what you think of the agreement between LA and Bioware and the games that could come out of their collaboration. For once we have an interesting announcement, don't ruin it with personal feuds. If you have a problem with a post, use the report post button or contact a moderator.
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Old 11-08-2007, 02:41 PM   #225
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I guess there's no point to argue here. It isn't going to change anything, really. Let's just wait to hear what BioWare & LucasArts are planning.
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Old 11-08-2007, 10:45 PM   #226
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
As far as I know, the PC heavily dominates the market for MMORPGs. The chances of a multiplatform release is relatively low. It would split their post-sale support resources. Personally, I wouldn't do that.
No question that the PC is the current dominant platform for MMORPG's. I'm just playing around with ideas here, wondering what could make this "ground-breaking entertainment product" LucasArts and BioWare are collaborating on actually be ground-breaking. Of course "ground-breaking" could just be standard marketing hype for the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Moeller
I don't even know if there are any MMOs for consoles, are there?
Not any current ones that I know of. Age of Conan: Hyborian Adventures is reportedly going to be released for at least one console platform. Of course the PC version of the game has been delayed a couple of times and isn't due until 2008 Q1 now so it's hard to predict what Funcom will end up doing with the console version, if they even decide to make one after all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tk102
I know nothing about MMOs ... do they normally provide cross-platform support simulataneously? Can a person with an Xbox normally play with someone on a PS3 in other MMOs?
Heh, neither do I. But to clarify I wasn't necessarily thinking in terms of cross-platform capability. Each platform: PC, PS 3, Xbox 360, could have their own set of servers and players of one platform would only be playing with other players from the same platform. I think PC and Xbox 360 are very doable. I'm not so sure about the PS 3 though since I'm not sure how its Internet connectivity works. And as far as I know the Wii wouldn't even be considered for something like this. Then again, cross-platform playability would be "ground-breaking" would it not? It's just that the the developers would need to figure out a way to level the playing field when it comes to keyboard/mouse versus controllers if they went with a cross-platform solution.


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Old 11-08-2007, 11:03 PM   #227
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Is everyone forgetting Final Fantasy XI?

The pioneer Console MMO?

Even though it's the worst game in the series, it is the first console mmo.
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Old 11-09-2007, 10:59 AM   #228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teodesetkata
I guess there's no point to argue here. It isn't going to change anything, really. Let's just wait to hear what BioWare & LucasArts are planning.
True, but it's fun to speculate. Last time they worked together, they gave us the greatest SW game made to date. Of course, this is good and bad. Good because we know they can make a great game and bad because we know they can make a great game!

Quote:
Is everyone forgetting Final Fantasy XI?

The pioneer Console MMO?

Even though it's the worst game in the series, it is the first console mmo.
I guess we are. I've played a Final Fantasy game, so I never payed them much attention.

I remember pre-launch of SWG that the Xbox and PS2 were slated to have the game. As a beta tester, I don't recall seeing much discussion on it in the beta forums. Then it was like 2 weeks before launch when they pulled the plug on that idea.

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Old 11-09-2007, 11:26 AM   #229
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Huh, apparently, it's possible. FFXI did it, or so says wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Fantasy_XI


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Old 11-11-2007, 04:36 PM   #230
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I just now noticed, at the bioware website, on the drop down menu for bioware games, it lists the lucasarts/bioware game separate from the mmo and the next gen game. So, would that mean they are different games, and bioware is not doing a mmo with lucasarts?

Last edited by dslsss; 11-11-2007 at 04:42 PM. Reason: Just worded it differently
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Old 11-11-2007, 05:35 PM   #231
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^ looolz!

You're absolutely right!
There goes about half the speculation and pointless MMO debating in this thread
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Old 11-11-2007, 06:04 PM   #232
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Heh, the debating wasn't pointless as the feasibility of a KotOR MMO is still true. Still, great news that this is probably going to be a new SP RPG


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Old 11-11-2007, 06:16 PM   #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dslsss
I just now noticed, at the bioware website, on the drop down menu for bioware games, it lists the lucasarts/bioware game separate from the mmo and the next gen game. So, would that mean they are different games, and bioware is not doing a mmo with lucasarts?
Not necessarily, if they are doing an mmo, Bioware probably doesn't want to announce anything until Lucasarts' contract with SOE winds down inorder to avoid any legal entanglements that they might run into.

Bottom line: If it's got KOTOR on the box, I'm buying it, mmo or not.
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Old 11-11-2007, 06:24 PM   #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smhiggz
Bottom line: If it's got KOTOR on the box, I'm buying it, mmo or not.
QFT


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Old 11-11-2007, 06:55 PM   #235
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Originally Posted by smhiggz
Not necessarily, if they are doing an mmo, Bioware probably doesn't want to announce anything until Lucasarts' contract with SOE winds down inorder to avoid any legal entanglements that they might run into.

Wouldn't they run into problems anyway, since the deal was made before the end of SOE's contract?


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Old 11-11-2007, 08:54 PM   #236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Wouldn't they run into problems anyway, since the deal was made before the end of SOE's contract?
I don't think so as long as there isn't a clause in the current contract between SOE and LA that specifically stated that LA couldn't talk with other developers about future SW based mmo's. They probably won't anounce an mmo anytime soon, but if there is an announcement regarding the LA/Bioware game it would be something like "We're making a Star Wars game" sometime arund Christmas. And in the months leading up to the expiration of SOE's contract (which I believe is early 2008, correct me if i'm wrong), SOE would probably announce that their contract will not be extended and then LA/Bioware would probably make an announcement along the lines of "We're making a Star Wars mmo".

I don't see any problems unless LA is planning on renewing SOE's contract, which I honestly can't see happening.
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Old 11-11-2007, 09:00 PM   #237
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They must really be enjoying themselves messing with us like this! lol I'm about ready to fall out of my seat waiting for an annoucement of something.

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I don't see any problems unless LA is planning on renewing SOE's contract, which I honestly can't see happening.
I can't imagine why they would want to. The game is in shambles now.

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Old 11-11-2007, 09:59 PM   #238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Heh, the debating wasn't pointless as the feasibility of a KotOR MMO is still true. Still, great news that this is probably going to be a new SP RPG
Indeed. I'm not sure what to make of this but if the LucasArts/BioWare project is indeed not the BioWare MMORPG then I don't see how BioWare would tackle two MMORPG's at the same time. So I guess it would stand to reason that the LucasArts/BioWare project is a SPRPG.

I guess we're stuck waiting for more info.


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Old 11-11-2007, 10:04 PM   #239
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Yeah, I was really betting that it was an MMO, now it seems like thats not the case. I would think it is a SPRPG now, unless they're just messing with us.


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Old 11-11-2007, 10:04 PM   #240
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Or not an RPG, but I don't think Bioware makes non-RPGs. Sweet. I kind of hope it's not KotoR III, to be honest. Another series would be cool.
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