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Old 11-07-2007, 09:14 AM   #1
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Fatal school shooting in Finland

I was quite shocked today when I read the news after school.

This is pretty much the same thing as the Columbine/Virginia Tech massacre, only in a smaller scale.

It's really weird that this has happened here in Finland, which seemed so far away from school shootings in America. Thankfully I didn't know any of the students killed, 9 have been killed including the perpetrator.

Maybe this gives some insight into the possible future where school shootings will become more frequent outside the U.S.


Last edited by Pho3nix; 11-08-2007 at 09:57 AM. Reason: Edited facts.
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Old 11-07-2007, 03:03 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pho3nix
Maybe this gives some insight into the possible future where school shootings will become more frequent outside the U.S.
Let us hope and pray that school shootings will become a thing of the past both inside and outside the US.

My thoughts and prayers are with the victims, their families and your country today.
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Old 11-07-2007, 04:34 PM   #3
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Damn, that is really a tragic event.

I offer my condolences to the family of the victims and to your country. We, in Montreal, know too well how a school shooting can affect your world.


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Old 11-07-2007, 05:36 PM   #4
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Yeah, heard about it on the news after I got home. Terrible and upsetting news.

My condolences to the family and friends of the victims.


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Old 11-08-2007, 07:11 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pho3nix
It's really weird that this has happened here in Finland, which seemed so far away from school shootings in America.
The US doesn't have a monopoly on evil and violence--that's human nature, unfortunately. It's sad to realize that the kids who are obviously disturbed enough to do this a. aren't getting identified as having problems, b. have apparently easy access to assault weapons and c. are not being protected from whatever is triggering the decision to go and shoot other students (severe bullying seems to be a factor).

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Thankfully I didn't know any of the students killed, reportedly 7-8 have been killed and the shooter shot himself.
That's just awful, and I feel bad the families of all those who died.


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Old 11-08-2007, 07:38 AM   #6
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The gun - a simple and elegant solution to life's problems. Have a problem with someone? Bang. Think YOU are the problem? Bang. Want to look cool and get the **** out of life at the same time? Bang.

The key part about School Shootings is not School, but Shootings. The gun is responsible - it is a weapon where you don't need skill, strength or practice. In fact, it is hardly a weapon - it's a killing device. Point and pull and it's all over. And it is this that is the problem. Teenagers go through a lot of stress in life, in one degree or another. The gun is the tempting solution to it all, and as long as guns exist and in the availability that exists today, I wouldn't expect school shootings to stop.

My condolences to the families of both the victims and the culprit, and my sympathies to the culprit's mind.


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Old 11-08-2007, 08:20 AM   #7
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Actually, you do need a degree of strength and some knowledge of how to fire the thing (with the gun straight in front of your chest is not usually advisable, AFAIK). Otherwise you'd break your wrists...but that's beside the point.

It's odd to think of a school shooting so (comparatively) close to home. It shouldn't make much difference, but at the same time, your perspective skews with distance.

O_o

My prayers tonight are for the dead, the families, and the gunman...


How can anyone think that their life is worth more than their fellow man's, or that it is their choice who may live and who may die?

At times like this, it's hard to put faith in your fellow man.



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Old 11-08-2007, 08:29 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth InSidious
Actually, you do need a degree of strength and some knowledge of how to fire the thing (with the gun straight in front of your chest is not usually advisable, AFAIK). Otherwise you'd break your wrists...but that's beside the point.
Well of course, but look at the alternatives: Weilding a sword or an axe would require literal physical strength, not to mention months of skill if the culprit hopes to get his victim quickly. A gun is the simplest weapon compared to older ones. At the most you'd require a bit of practice in a convenient secluded spot. It's creepy, the way I'm thinking about it.

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How can anyone think that their life is worth more than their fellow man's, or that it is their choice who may live and who may die?
A suicidal school shooter is going to be hardly interested in philosophy like that. He doesn't think he's king of the world and it is his right to kill. He doesn't think in that system at all. Someone has done great injustice to him (in his perspective, at least) and he wants to deal the same on him. It's a brutally simple idea.


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Old 11-08-2007, 09:59 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
The US doesn't have a monopoly on evil and violence--that's human nature, unfortunately.
I'm aware of that, but for example the Columbine tragedy has been the most publicized school shooting. That's why I drew the parallel to America.

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Old 11-08-2007, 10:07 AM   #10
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According to various sources, the kid posted his intentions to carry out the shootings on the internet hours before actually doing it. He also wrote up a manifesto of his thoughts and posted it on the web as well. For the most part, he seemed 'angry at the human race' and saw himself as a 'natural selector', intent on weeding out those deemed 'unfit'.

I just think he was a complete whackjob.

Too bad he isn't around anymore to face the music. He shot himself in the head just before being captured and he was alive up until a certain point, but he succumbed recently. I'd've liked it if he'd just paralyzed himself or something and kept all of his mental faculties, so he could live out the rest of his life incarcerated with the humans he hated so much.




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Old 11-08-2007, 10:09 AM   #11
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the problem is not guns. The problem is the desire to use violence to solve problems. If there were no guns, disturbed kids may use knives. If there were no knives, people would use stones and sharp sticks.

Getting rid of guns only makes the people with these kinds of issues and desires harder to find.


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Old 11-08-2007, 10:24 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Web Rider
the problem is not guns. The problem is the desire to use violence to solve problems. If there were no guns, disturbed kids may use knives. If there were no knives, people would use stones and sharp sticks.
But like I said, the gun is hardly a worthy weapon. The chances of an untrained student killing another with a knife are very low, but a gun is a killing device - not a hurting one, like the knife. You just pull the trigger and a life is over.

Quote:
The problem is the desire to use violence to solve problems.
And isn't that the most basic, more primitive way to solve problems? It is the only one hardcoded in our brains since birth - if you have a problem, fight your way out of it. The problem is that the kids of today are weak mentally and that fear of authorities, a ruined life or even humiliation leads them to suicide. Kill and suicide - simple, all your problems are solved.


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Old 11-08-2007, 11:25 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabretooth
But like I said, the gun is hardly a worthy weapon. The chances of an untrained student killing another with a knife are very low, but a gun is a killing device - not a hurting one, like the knife. You just pull the trigger and a life is over.
and aim well. Shooting a gun is not a one-hit-wonder. And whatever delusions of honorable warfare exist in your mind haven't existed in reality for a long time.

I don't know how many guns you've shot, but unless you are a spectacular example of person, steady hands, accurate eyes, strong arms, ect... but guns are not these magical devices that work like you're keyboard and mouse where point+click=death. If you don't know what you're doing, you're as likly to hit a person as you are the floor or miss the broad side of a barn.


Quote:
And isn't that the most basic, more primitive way to solve problems? It is the only one hardcoded in our brains since birth - if you have a problem, fight your way out of it. The problem is that the kids of today are weak mentally and that fear of authorities, a ruined life or even humiliation leads them to suicide. Kill and suicide - simple, all your problems are solved.
We are of course the most primitive, basic forms of humanity....oh, wait, we're not, we have this wonderful thing called "self control". And please don't stereotype. If you were correct, there'd be far more shootings than there are already, I was one of those "kids" a few years ago, and I didn't appreciate it then, and I don't appreciate it now.

You don't know them, don't judge them. It's that kind of judgement that is behind these shootings.


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Old 11-08-2007, 01:14 PM   #14
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I agree with Web Rider in that guns are just a tool and are not at fault in any of these cases. I differ from Web Rider in that I believe guns are more lethal and provide a chance the perpetrator to kill or harm more individuals than a knife, stones are a sharp stick.

I also disagree in that if you are a point blank range any fool can hit their target with a gun even by accident. Dog shots Man

However having never shot at a human I’m sure it would be more difficult. After all the difference between shooting a target and a living animal is huge, I'm sure a human would be 100 times worst. Maybe not for people who do things like school shootings or they would not be doing it in the first place.

To me the problem is more a problem of availability of fire arms to students in these cases. It should be harder for kids to lay their hands on them to use in such a fashion. Gun safes, trigger lock are important tools in preventing such tragedies. No, it will not stop them, but it could help in limiting them and limiting the number of deaths. I own guns and they are protected with trigger guards and the ammo is stored in a complete different hidden location. I was taught as a child gun safety comes first even before protection.

Last edited by mimartin; 11-08-2007 at 01:31 PM. Reason: grammer
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Old 11-08-2007, 01:23 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Web Rider
and aim well. Shooting a gun is not a one-hit-wonder. And whatever delusions of honorable warfare exist in your mind haven't existed in reality for a long time.

I don't know how many guns you've shot, but unless you are a spectacular example of person, steady hands, accurate eyes, strong arms, ect... but guns are not these magical devices that work like you're keyboard and mouse where point+click=death. If you don't know what you're doing, you're as likly to hit a person as you are the floor or miss the broad side of a barn.
I think the training time required to fire a gun is significantly lesser than teaching a man to accurately use a bow or master swordplay. And a bullet is more likely to kill you in a shot than an arrow or a blade. That is the difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Web Rider
We are of course the most primitive, basic forms of humanity....oh, wait, we're not, we have this wonderful thing called "self control".
But we do not have absolute self control, because if we did, this would have never taken place. We are all animals, just a little smarter than the rest. Can you permanently control your urge to reproduce, to eat and to drink?

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Originally Posted by Web Rider
And please don't stereotype. If you were correct, there'd be far more shootings than there are already, I was one of those "kids" a few years ago, and I didn't appreciate it then, and I don't appreciate it now.
Stereotype? I'm not lying or stereotyping when I say that teenagers are in stress - because they are. That's natural, considering human psychology and sociology, and is further aggravated by modern society. I am one right now, and I know the urge to pick up a gun and shoot someone, just to solve everything. Why don't I do it? There aren't any guns around me, I'm a chicken, and I don't want to die (which the obvious solution I'd pick after a school shooting because I'm obviously going to face 50+ years of jailtime).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Web Rider
You don't know them, don't judge them. It's that kind of judgement that is behind these shootings.
And that is something I agree with - whoever did that obviously was not in the same frame of mind as you and I - he had a completely different way of viewing the world and himself. He didn't understand things the way you and I did, that's agreed.


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Old 11-08-2007, 02:18 PM   #16
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Guns are not the problem. If they were, there'd be a far greater number of deaths around the world then there are already (and I ain't talking in war zones, either). It may be a hoary old saying, but guns don't kill people, people kill people. And, when you look at the proliferation on the internet of info on homemade bomb making, it's almost a wonder that there aren't more of those problems. Hell, you don't even have to aim a pipebomb, just drop it off somewhere. Nevermind car bombs.


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Old 11-08-2007, 04:10 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabretooth
I think the training time required to fire a gun is significantly lesser than teaching a man to accurately use a bow or master swordplay. And a bullet is more likely to kill you in a shot than an arrow or a blade. That is the difference.
Swordplay and gunplay are very different confrontations.

If you were to be up against another person with great skill in marksmanship, no matter what your weapon he/she'd be likely to kill you before you even get to draw your weapon.
And it's just as easy to kill someone with a knife as it is a gun.
Knife+throat=****ing dead.


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Old 11-08-2007, 05:12 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by mimartin
I agree with Web Rider in that guns are just a tool and are not at fault in any of these cases. I differ from Web Rider in that I believe guns are more lethal and provide a chance the perpetrator to kill or harm more individuals than a knife, stones are a sharp stick.

I also disagree in that if you are a point blank range any fool can hit their target with a gun even by accident.
I'm not saying they're not far more lethal, that's completely true. I'm just saying that they're not simply "point+click".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabretooth
I think the training time required to fire a gun is significantly lesser than teaching a man to accurately use a bow or master swordplay. And a bullet is more likely to kill you in a shot than an arrow or a blade. That is the difference.
of course it is, but as Slithereo brings up, I can still kill real easily with a knife. It takes a little more finesse perhaps, but it still ranks pretty low on the "how hard is it to kill with this weapon" poll.

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But we do not have absolute self control, because if we did, this would have never taken place. We are all animals, just a little smarter than the rest. Can you permanently control your urge to reproduce, to eat and to drink?
Of course not, but the desire to wantonly slaughter out of misguided beliefs of "superiority" and suppressible feelings.

Quote:
Stereotype? I'm not lying or stereotyping when I say that teenagers are in stress - because they are. That's natural, considering human psychology and sociology, and is further aggravated by modern society. I am one right now, and I know the urge to pick up a gun and shoot someone, just to solve everything. Why don't I do it? There aren't any guns around me, I'm a chicken, and I don't want to die (which the obvious solution I'd pick after a school shooting because I'm obviously going to face 50+ years of jailtime).
I don't do it simply because I know it's not a valid solution to any(save if somebody else had a gun in my face) problem that may arise in my life. But I was speaking stereotype in the way of saying that teens are afraid of the administration. There's probly a far larger correlation between school shootings, the boys who do them(if there was a girl who did some, let me know), and society's current ideas about how boys should "bottle it up".


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Old 11-08-2007, 07:07 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Web Rider
I'm just saying that they're not simply "point+click".
I agree with that, but it isn’t rocket science either. It is a really easy skill to learn at least from close range.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Web Rider
of course it is, but as Slithereo brings up, I can still kill real easily with a knife. It takes a little more finesse perhaps, but it still ranks pretty low on the "how hard is it to kill with this weapon" poll.
Yes, these sick individuals can kill one or two person just as easily with a knife, but without being specially trained, I don’t see how they could murder as many victims as you can with a firearm. Time and people fighting back would be against them. Again, I am not saying firearms are the problems I am saying allowing children unsupervised access to weapons is part of the problem.
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Old 11-08-2007, 08:43 PM   #20
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_massacre To me, it does'nt matter if it was in a "smaller scale" or not. Still a tragedy and one that will certainly be repeated in the future. They say the one thing that pushes the human race to learn is death. Hopefully someone will find the answer before more people die needlessly. Despite media and other sources placing the blame on mental health/games/films, i personally believe there is one common factor here and that is guns. A human made invention, we don't need them to live so we need almost iron laws over their restrictions.

Easier said than done granted, especially with UK laws and the American right to bear arms. But times change and it seems most countries are guilty of placing nostalgia before logic.


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Old 11-08-2007, 10:16 PM   #21
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_massacre To me, it does'nt matter if it was in a "smaller scale" or not. Still a tragedy and one that will certainly be repeated in the future. They say the one thing that pushes the human race to learn is death. Hopefully someone will find the answer before more people die needlessly. Despite media and other sources placing the blame on mental health/games/films, i personally believe there is one common factor here and that is guns. A human made invention, we don't need them to live so we need almost iron laws over their restrictions.

Easier said than done granted, especially with UK laws and the American right to bear arms. But times change and it seems most countries are guilty of placing nostalgia before logic.
I would disagree. I think the answer to the problem of gun violence is definitely more "gun control," but of a very different sort. A lot of people are afraid of the gun itself, and quite a few are fascinated by guns from an early age. I think that the answer to gun violence is education-- institutionalized gun safety training in public schools(at least in America) would certainly help curb the fear and hopefully go a long way towards removing the stigma, and it would also help the government "provide for the common defense."

OF course, most of the advocacy for contemporary gun control comes from large cities, where most people don't own guns, and as someone who lives in what could be described as a rural environment, I have to keep that in mind, given that I've always thought of guns as tools, and in some cases historical objects for collecting. There was a school shooting about 45 minutes from my hometown, at a small law school in Western Virginia(not WV) that involved a student coming in with a pistol. Given that police response time is not so good around here, the guy could've killed a lot of people. Luckily, however, another student had a shotgun in his truck(for turkey hunting, if I'm not mistaken) and was able to shoot the shooter before anyone else could be hurt. No, that incident didn't get much press coverage, but I digress.

I think that individuals are, in the end, responsible for their own actions, and although inanimate objects may be used to commit crimes(the same with drugs, etc.) the individual who pulls the trigger is ultimately at fault. Furthermore, I think that demystifying firearms themselves would go a long way toward creating a safer, freer society.





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Old 11-08-2007, 10:45 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El Sitherino
If you were to be up against another person with great skill in marksmanship, no matter what your weapon he/she'd be likely to kill you before you even get to draw your weapon.
And it's just as easy to kill someone with a knife as it is a gun.
Knife+throat=****ing dead.
Perhaps, but then I don't see why there aren't more knife-based school massacres, as compared to shootings. Knives are much more available and accessible, too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Web Rider
Of course not, but the desire to wantonly slaughter out of misguided beliefs of "superiority" and suppressible feelings.
IMO, all that is bull****. The people around him didn't appear to hate humanity or feel superior. It is obvious that the guy had been screwed up in his life and as a result, he wanted revenge or to just release his anger. He magnified all that by saying that he hated the human race and so on, so as to appear greater. Alternatively, he would have looked like the average teen who shot kids because he was bullied. Which is the better option in his eyes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Web Rider
I don't do it simply because I know it's not a valid solution to any(save if somebody else had a gun in my face) problem that may arise in my life. But I was speaking stereotype in the way of saying that teens are afraid of the administration. There's probly a far larger correlation between school shootings, the boys who do them(if there was a girl who did some, let me know), and society's current ideas about how boys should "bottle it up".
There is a point in a human's tolerance when he breaks - when there is left no option for him other than to be reduced to primitive means. That has not been conquered by medicine and science, and that is humanity's greatest failing.

Well of course, teens are afraid of the authorities. Why did he kill himself? He didn't want to spend the rest of his "redeemed" life in a jail, or ****ed up by authorities and the media. That's just being rational.


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Old 11-09-2007, 12:08 AM   #23
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Killing someone with a knife is actually a lot harder than killing someone with a gun. It takes more to stab someone to death than it does to shoot them. With a knife, you're a lot less likely to kill more than one person before you're taken down - against a guy with a gun, you've got no chance without a gun of your own. Against a guy with a knife, you've got plenty of options. If a group gets together and mobs the guy with the knife, they'll probably all survive without serious injuries. If they mob a guy with the gun, several are probably going to be severely hurt or killed.

That's why there are no knife massacres.
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Old 11-09-2007, 01:34 AM   #24
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That is just too bad....some people have some serious problems.

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Old 11-09-2007, 04:06 AM   #25
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I know what it was like to be a teenager, and feel lost, and misunderstood, but 8 people have lost there lives, and countless family members lives will never be the same. There can be no apologies for any aspect of this crime, there shouldn't of been a gun and he should of received help for his problems.

For the record, guns should be banned imo, all this "guns don't kill people, people kill people" maybe true to a degree, but its just a nice slogan for gun owners.
I saw a tv show about cops in the US, (I Know this is a singular event and doesn't represent the whole country but) a police officer stops a man for a routine check, it happens that the man is wanted for other traffic offenses, so he drives off... and for this, the officer empties his clip in to the car?! I mean traffic offenses are a crime but do they really equal to possible death?

Also, I'm pretty sure no one here has, or would know how, to efficiently kill with a knife... Unless John Rambo is a member of LF


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Old 11-09-2007, 08:31 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth InSidious
Actually, you do need a degree of strength and some knowledge of how to fire the thing (with the gun straight in front of your chest is not usually advisable, AFAIK). Otherwise you'd break your wrists...
Oh no, you wouldn't. I mean, these are young people, not old grannies who cannot even hold their pee anymore. Plus, modern fire arms have reduced recoil and stuff and once you have fired a weapon you get used to it quickly, it's not that hard, really. And I doubt any of the school shooters has never used a weapon before their deeds.


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and aim well
At long distance, yes. But not when the person you're shooting at is only a couple of meters away. Then it's almost point and click. Especially with handguns.


Also, like Corinthian said, the difference between a kill with a knife/sword/hammer/by hand or a gun is at hand: to put a blade into someone else's body it takes more "of a man" compared to the "fire and forget" feel of projectile weapons. In other words: distance. To kill someone with a gun yo don't need to get close to your victim, whereas killing by knife would mean you have to get as close as 1 meter to perform a kill, and the chance to see yourself opposed to effective resistance, maybe even that your knife is being used against yourself increases a lot with that. In case you fail to aim properly with the first knife stab you most probably find yourself face to face with someone that might totally tick off and actively fight for his life. Being 4 meters away the other one has literally no chance when you pull the trigger. And in case you miss the first time, no problem, there is more in the magazine.

At the end of the day it's simply distance that makes guns so effective and popular for the Joe Normal type of killer.


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Old 11-09-2007, 09:12 AM   #27
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Oh no, you wouldn't. I mean, these are young people, not old grannies who cannot even hold their pee anymore. Plus, modern fire arms have reduced recoil and stuff and once you have fired a weapon you get used to it quickly, it's not that hard, really. And I doubt any of the school shooters has never used a weapon before their deeds.
I bow to your superior knowledge of firearms.



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Old 11-09-2007, 09:38 AM   #28
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I am educated and trained in the use of different projectile weapons like handguns, rifles, automatic guns, and bazookas.


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Old 11-09-2007, 11:23 AM   #29
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I remember making a gun thread earlier this year after the Virginia Tech massacre where I explained quite a few things.


Knives vs. guns...

Although true that it is much harder to do mass killing with a knife, it is however incorrect to assume that someone cannot kill a lot of people with a bladed weapon instead of a projectile weapon. After all, Jack the Ripper didn't use a gun. My point is that this kid could have turned into a serial killer and plan murders had he not have a gun. We'll never truly know, but it is not possible to blame such a tragedy uniquely on the weapon used.

Banning guns...

Generally a very urban thing to say, considering we don't need guns in the city. People in rural regions though, it's almost a way of life. They hunt, protect their flocks from carnivorous animals, etc. Banning would be bad for them. What would they do? Try to knife that turkey?
Then again, Switzerland has the highest amount of assault rifles per capita in the western world. When was the last school shooting in Switzerland?


Ah found the old thread:
http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=177706


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Old 11-09-2007, 11:47 AM   #30
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Perhaps, but then I don't see why there aren't more knife-based school massacres, as compared to shootings. Knives are much more available and accessible, too.
I said that killing with a knife is low on the list of complicated ways to kill. A gun is easier.

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IMO, all that is bull****. The people around him didn't appear to hate humanity or feel superior. It is obvious that the guy had been screwed up in his life and as a result, he wanted revenge or to just release his anger. He magnified all that by saying that he hated the human race and so on, so as to appear greater. Alternatively, he would have looked like the average teen who shot kids because he was bullied. Which is the better option in his eyes?
Um, I was talking about the shooter as having the better than you attitude.

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There is a point in a human's tolerance when he breaks - when there is left no option for him other than to be reduced to primitive means. That has not been conquered by medicine and science, and that is humanity's greatest failing.
Of course, but getting picked on shouldn't be it. In fact, it rarely is. Given that what, one school shooting happens a year? maybe? Out of the hundreds of thousands of kids? Don't make excuses like "he was pushed into it". There are plenty of ways to deal with that kind of school stuff without killing people, being stressed is no excuse, buy a punching bag for that.

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Well of course, teens are afraid of the authorities. Why did he kill himself? He didn't want to spend the rest of his "redeemed" life in a jail, or ****ed up by authorities and the media. That's just being rational.
Speculating on why he killed himself is really someplace I don't think I want to go. My assumption would be that he hated humanity, knew he was part of it, and didn't want to be.

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Knives vs. guns...

Although true that it is much harder to do mass killing with a knife, it is however incorrect to assume that someone cannot kill a lot of people with a bladed weapon instead of a projectile weapon. After all, Jack the Ripper didn't use a gun. My point is that this kid could have turned into a serial killer and plan murders had he not have a gun. We'll never truly know, but it is not possible to blame such a tragedy uniquely on the weapon used.

Banning guns...

Generally a very urban thing to say, considering we don't need guns in the city. People in rural regions though, it's almost a way of life. They hunt, protect their flocks from carnivorous animals, etc. Banning would be bad for them. What would they do? Try to knife that turkey?
Then again, Switzerland has the highest amount of assault rifles per capita in the western world. When was the last school shooting in Switzerland?
But Jack also struck in the dark of night on women who were usually wandering around alone. Which makes killing with a knife/sword easier as there's less interferance.

On banning guns, it's ironic that you say we don't need guns in cities, this generally tends to be where most of the gun crime is. I mean Columbine and VT were big-city places, not little country towns. Cities could really learn a lesson from country towns when it comes to guns. The concepts about them are very different.

As John Galt mentioned, there's a sort of respect and "ooo+awe" over guns in the country, but they don't really have that in cities, which IMO is part of the reason there's more gun crime in cities.


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Old 11-09-2007, 12:54 PM   #31
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Personally, I think everyone should carry a gun. Nobody is going to commit a crime when every Tom, Dick, and Harry is going to pull a Beretta on them
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Old 11-09-2007, 01:13 PM   #32
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Quote:
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Personally, I think everyone should carry a gun. Nobody is going to commit a crime when every Tom, Dick, and Harry is going to pull a Beretta on them
Yea, that worked out real well in America in the 19th century and it is working out worst in Iraq of today.

It may workout well here now until a couple macho morons cross paths and have to prove who has the bigger gun. I have to admit I was apprehensive about Texas hand gun law before it was enacted, but it has worked out well although it has not stopped crime. Still you can’t carry counseled weapons like it was envisioned as businesses have the right to say no fire arms within them add to that school grounds, government property and any place that sales alcohol and mine pretty much stays in my car or apartment.
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Old 11-09-2007, 01:17 PM   #33
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That's Iraq. They're all crazy over there. They kill each other over beards and whether you should listen to Muhammad's brothers.
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Old 11-09-2007, 01:43 PM   #34
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That's Iraq. They're all crazy over there. They kill each other over beards and whether you should listen to Muhammad's brothers.
I still find Iraq a much saner place compared to what the world would be if everyone had a gun. We're talking the entire world here, which is what, 10 times Islam? I'd say there are a lot of places way crazier than Iraq.


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Old 11-09-2007, 03:00 PM   #35
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Quote:
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But Jack also struck in the dark of night on women who were usually wandering around alone. Which makes killing with a knife/sword easier as there's less interferance.
Yeah, there is less interference and my point about knives vs. guns is that someone can kill a lot of people with a knife too, in different circumstances, yes, but just as many.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Web Rider
On banning guns, it's ironic that you say we don't need guns in cities, this generally tends to be where most of the gun crime is. I mean Columbine and VT were big-city places, not little country towns. Cities could really learn a lesson from country towns when it comes to guns. The concepts about them are very different.

As John Galt mentioned, there's a sort of respect and "ooo+awe" over guns in the country, but they don't really have that in cities, which IMO is part of the reason there's more gun crime in cities.
Actually, there's more gun crime in the cities because there's more crime. Period. The concepts around them are indeed very different and the need also is very different. The country towns need them in their every day life, for something else then self-defense, while the city dwellers don't hunt a lot of pigeons or protect their pets from the wildlife.

By the way, I'm against banning guns or blaming them instead of the criminals who commit acts of violence using firearms.

However, I'm also against this idea of more guns meaning less crime. mimartin said it best, so I'll leave it at that.

I honestly will never understand this paranoia in some Americans. I live in St-Michel, a ghetto where there's quite a bit of stabbing and fighting going on every day for various reasons. I don't feel the need to carry a firearm. This isn't the most dangerous place in North America. I wonder why some Americans, who live in very safe neighborhoods, safer then mine, where there's nearly no drug trading in the parks, feel the need to protect themselves against...a "what if?" situation. I guess it's a cultural thing. Don't answer my questioning...


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Old 11-09-2007, 03:36 PM   #36
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Quote:
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Then again, Switzerland has the highest amount of assault rifles per capita in the western world.
Does it say where?


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Old 11-09-2007, 04:35 PM   #37
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1566715.stm

I should have said civilian owned. It's one link alone though.

The article also points out how Switzerland doesn't face some of the same social problems many larger countries have to deal with.


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Old 11-09-2007, 05:23 PM   #38
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Quote:
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I don't know how many guns you've shot, but unless you are a spectacular example of person, steady hands, accurate eyes, strong arms, ect... but guns are not these magical devices that work like you're keyboard and mouse where point+click=death.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
I'm against banning guns or blaming them instead of the criminals who commit acts of violence using firearms.
If the guns were magical devices where point+click=death, would you still feel the same? If killing another person became so very simple that took absolutely no skill, would you ever point the finger at the laws that allowed such devices to be owned?


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Old 11-09-2007, 05:47 PM   #39
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Such a shame when such hatred in one's own species can lead to such a horrible
event. I think something has to trigger off a person to do something like this, i think the main cause is intent bullying which causes the perpatrator to snap, using a gun like a tool of intent revenge. It's scary how things can transgress into something as tragic as this. My condolences to all involved, including the gunman himself as he must have been quite trapped in his own hatred to perform such a horrible deed upon his own. This has surprised me, not because it is anywhere outside America, but because the events in Virginia are still so fresh in our minds and it's such a shame that something of the same has occurred yet again so soon after Virginia Tech.
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Old 11-09-2007, 05:54 PM   #40
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@tk, no, because I still don't think it's the government's job to do these kinds of things. People are going to find ways to kill, yes, laws can make it harder, but now we're just making Big Brother bigger. When a person owns a weapon it's their responsibility to be well, responsible with it. I can't count the number of swords/knives/daggers I own on both hands. But I'm responsible about them and don't screw around with them save when I know I can't hurt anyone and I don't let other people even handle them for more than a few moments.

How much effort did that take to restrain myself from doing anything bad? Not much. in fact, as far as efforts go, I've had business in the bathroom require more effort. It's NOT hard to control yourself. And that's ALL people need to do when it comes to weapons, ANY weapon.


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