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Old 11-09-2007, 06:34 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Web Rider
I still don't think it's the government's job to do these kinds of things... It's NOT hard to control yourself. And that's ALL people need to do when it comes to weapons, ANY weapon.
If we take it another step farther, does that mean that other violence prevention measures taken by the government such as background checks and concealed weapon permits are also examples of Big Government overstepping their bounds on personal liberty?


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Old 11-09-2007, 06:50 PM   #42
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Most loonies don't get their guns the legal way anyway, they either steal it or purchase from illegal sources.
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Old 11-09-2007, 10:13 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Web Rider
the problem is not guns. The problem is the desire to use violence to solve problems. If there were no guns, disturbed kids may use knives. If there were no knives, people would use stones and sharp sticks.

Getting rid of guns only makes the people with these kinds of issues and desires harder to find.
That does remember me about a referendum that happened on Brazil almost a year ago. The discussion was all about the legalization of weapons. Since before that time, guns were legal for anyone with the authorization and license to carry/use them. But, unfortunately and as some of you might know, Brazil got some critical problems with violence that comes mostly from drug dealing above many other crimes. So, the choices of the "poll" were two, quite clear and straight choices: Should the weapons be forbidden to civilians? Yes or No?

The problem in question is, definitely different, but the discussion seems to fit. A gun is surely an easy way to kill people, but it's possible to kill with bare hands, too. Bear on mind that your kitchen knife may be stained with blood, so your tools and, dammit, even your small, butter-cutting scissor. And on the drug dealing case, that would be just another illegal material for the criminals to smuggle in and out. Considering how ineffective my government was on fighting those dealers, I can't hope but be sure that their arsenal would stay untouched, perhaps grow even more. That's why I believe that's not the solution.

The referendum ended with the legalization of weapons with a majority of over 70%.


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Old 11-10-2007, 12:09 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by tk102
If we take it another step farther, does that mean that other violence prevention measures taken by the government such as background checks and concealed weapon permits are also examples of Big Government overstepping their bounds on personal liberty?
to be technically correct, yes. But at the same time, no. These people who are being checked on, all people anyone, are simply being checked on to see how responsible a person they are. If they watch their action and exercise self-control well, they're likly to have a clean record and get guns. But that's not a problem because these are responsible people who won't be stupid and or violent with them.

Permits are a tracking measure, yes, they impose on our freedoms, but I think it's a very small imposition and if you've got a good record, and hell I know a few people with bad records, you can still get guns. I think it's pretty fair of the government, with permits, to essentially be saying "you want a gun, we want to know who you are." It makes things simpler when somebody was killed with X kind of gun to be able to know who in that area owns one of those guns.

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Originally Posted by Ctrl_Alt_Del
That does remember me about a referendum that happened on Brazil almost a year ago. The discussion was all about the legalization of weapons. Since before that time, guns were legal for anyone with the authorization and license to carry/use them. But, unfortunately and as some of you might know, Brazil got some critical problems with violence that comes mostly from drug dealing above many other crimes. So, the choices of the "poll" were two, quite clear and straight choices: Should the weapons be forbidden to civilians? Yes or No?

The problem in question is, definitely different, but the discussion seems to fit. A gun is surely an easy way to kill people, but it's possible to kill with bare hands, too. Bear on mind that your kitchen knife may be stained with blood, so your tools and, dammit, even your small, butter-cutting scissor. And on the drug dealing case, that would be just another illegal material for the criminals to smuggle in and out. Considering how ineffective my government was on fighting those dealers, I can't hope but be sure that their arsenal would stay untouched, perhaps grow even more. That's why I believe that's not the solution.

The referendum ended with the legalization of weapons with a majority of over 70%.
this is simply when it comes down to each weapon should be taken in it's own regard. Theres no need to own a rocket launcher or some high-powered military arsenal, fun as it may seem. In the case of drug dealing, well, most of those guns are illegial anyway, so for them, the law simply made what they were doing illegially, legal. It wasn't the owning guns that was illegial, but how they were getting them.

Which is the problem the permit and background check solves. Of course Brazil and many other South American countries have detrimental governmental problems, such as the ease at which political figures and agencies can be threatened into cooperation or bought into cooperation, which contribute to it's gun/drug/everything problems.


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Old 11-10-2007, 12:31 AM   #45
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For the record, guns should be banned imo
Guns can save lives (/protect), and take lives. IMO, it just depends on how the weapon is used.

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Old 11-10-2007, 01:15 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Web Rider
Permits are a tracking measure, yes, they impose on our freedoms, but I think it's a very small imposition and if you've got a good record, and hell I know a few people with bad records, you can still get guns. I think it's pretty fair of the government, with permits, to essentially be saying "you want a gun, we want to know who you are." It makes things simpler when somebody was killed with X kind of gun to be able to know who in that area owns one of those guns.
Beyond simply providing after-the-fact traceability, permits can also be denied on a per-applicant basis. Carrying a weapon without a permit is a violation.

It sounds like you are saying then, there is some point at which you agree that governmental regulations for the prevention of violence is reasonable. For example, in nearly every state, convicted felons are prohibited from obtaining a gun permit. Enough people agree with the reasonableness of this to enact this law which sacrifices some personal liberty for the sake of public safety.

Now, the degree to which one might consider such preventative measures reasonable is a subjective one. For those who value their liberty of owning firearms, the opinion will likely be different from those that have never owned one and are appalled by reports of gun violence in schools. In the case of the latter, blame does not always fall solely upon the perpetrator but also upon those that allow or encourage promiscuity of guns to begin with.

It is fine that you agree a bit more on the side of personal liberty than on than on the side of regulation. I simply raise the question because quite often in these threads I see a lot of categorical statements placing full blame and responsibility on the individual while ignoring pervading social factors. I would prefer to see that deliberate consideration was given before an opinon was reached, rather than taking a shortcut answer (not saying that you did Web Rider, just in general).


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Old 11-10-2007, 04:04 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Web Rider
In the case of drug dealing, well, most of those guns are illegial anyway, so for them, the law simply made what they were doing illegially, legal. It wasn't the owning guns that was illegial, but how they were getting them.
If the referendum ended with the approval of the proposition for banishing the weapons, then it would be a stab on the government's heart that, unable to determine where the criminals were getting them, would simply make their very owning illegal. Sounds like prohibiting alcoholic beverages on the dry law.


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Old 11-11-2007, 02:17 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Ctrl_Alt_Del
If the referendum ended with the approval of the proposition for banishing the weapons, then it would be a stab on the government's heart that
I agree. From a practical point of view, I think banishing weapons would be a fatal mistake, especially for the United States.

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Old 11-11-2007, 06:24 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by tk102
Beyond simply providing after-the-fact traceability, permits can also be denied on a per-applicant basis. Carrying a weapon without a permit is a violation.
but as I said, people who are responsible, this isn't going to be a problem.

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It sounds like you are saying then, there is some point at which you agree that governmental regulations for the prevention of violence is reasonable.
yes
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For example, in nearly every state, convicted felons are prohibited from obtaining a gun permit. Enough people agree with the reasonableness of this to enact this law which sacrifices some personal liberty for the sake of public safety.
because, as I've said, these people have proved they are not responsible, for whatever reason, enough to own guns.

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Now, the degree to which one might consider such preventative measures reasonable is a subjective one. For those who value their liberty of owning firearms, the opinion will likely be different from those that have never owned one and are appalled by reports of gun violence in schools.
of course.
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In the case of the latter, blame does not always fall solely upon the perpetrator but also upon those that allow or encourage promiscuity of guns to begin with.
true, if we promote sex, we hold some responsibility for teen pregnancy. If we promote guns, we are to some degree responsible for gun violence. However, blaming the people who promote guns, and the people who use guns, and the ones who use them poorly, is acceptable. It's when you(not YOU you) blame the existence of guns for problems that is incorrect.

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It is fine that you agree a bit more on the side of personal liberty than on than on the side of regulation.
It's just as fine if I agree with the side of absolute bannage. That's my opinion.
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I simply raise the question because quite often in these threads I see a lot of categorical statements placing full blame and responsibility on the individual while ignoring pervading social factors.
yes, there ARE social factors, peer pressure, propaganda, lack of education on the subject, social standards, ect ect... But at the end of the day, it was Hypothetical-Joe's fault for following such-in-such idea that said killing is an adequet solution tp bullying or some other normal-life issue. Is his depression at fault? Sure, is his hostile work environement? sure, is the music that makes guns out to be cool, and talking about cappin' people's asses, of course. But the individual still needs to be held accountable for their actions, even if they did it out of "peer-pressure", they still made the decision to do it.

Should something be done about those things that promote gun violence and things that cause depression and hostile work environments and peer pressure be done? Of course, but they're usually ignored unfortunately.

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I would prefer to see that deliberate consideration was given before an opinon was reached, rather than taking a shortcut answer (not saying that you did Web Rider, just in general).
In the end, it is their fault, we can't let them off because Eminem said guns were cool to shoot people with. But we can, and should(though we usually don't), do something about Eminem too.


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Old 11-11-2007, 06:53 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tk102
It sounds like you are saying then, there is some point at which you agree that governmental regulations for the prevention of violence is reasonable. For example, in nearly every state, convicted felons are prohibited from obtaining a gun permit. Enough people agree with the reasonableness of this to enact this law which sacrifices some personal liberty for the sake of public safety.
Which is pretty much how almost every law in modern democracies are made.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tk102
Now, the degree to which one might consider such preventative measures reasonable is a subjective one. For those who value their liberty of owning firearms, the opinion will likely be different from those that have never owned one and are appalled by reports of gun violence in schools. In the case of the latter, blame does not always fall solely upon the perpetrator but also upon those that allow or encourage promiscuity of guns to begin with.


It is fine that you agree a bit more on the side of personal liberty than on than on the side of regulation. I simply raise the question because quite often in these threads I see a lot of categorical statements placing full blame and responsibility on the individual while ignoring pervading social factors. I would prefer to see that deliberate consideration was given before an opinon was reached, rather than taking a shortcut answer (not saying that you did Web Rider, just in general).
I think you're making simplistic assumptions and archetypes. I get the feeling from your post, that those who are blaming the individual are taking shortcut answers. That is false. Blaming gun culture could also be a shortcut answer. Assuming that those who blame the individuals instead of the gun ignore social factors is also false.

The problem with these threads is that it essentially is a gun vs. individual debate. The problem is much more complex. There is no archetype for these school killers. Outside of not getting laid, I can hardly find something similar between all of them. Maybe bullying, but even then, in some cases, it isn't true at all. Gun culture or their availability isn't more important now then in the past, yet these unfortunate events happen in our day and age. Why? I don't know exactly.

What I do know is that it is not possible to blame a single factor.

I think there are bigger issues in play then the presence of firearms. I mean, why would Switzerland not have massive massacres considering the number of assault rifles they have?



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I don't think you can blame anything on Gangsta rap music. It is a representation of ghetto life errr...I'm sorry, was a representation of ghetto life in the past and in our days. These kids living in such neighborhoods will get acquainted to a violent lifestyle, with rap or without. In fact, as strange as it seems, these desperate teens seem to listen to metal more then rap. Think about Columbine and Marilyn Manson or Kimveer Gill (last-year's school shooting at Dawson College in Montreal) and Megadeth. Does it mean metal is to be blamed for the massacres? Of course not, but attributing these kids' irresponsibility with guns to rap culture is a false stereotype. I'm speaking of these attempts at mass killing of course.


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Old 11-11-2007, 06:56 PM   #51
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The music is not responsible for the crime, I'm not saying that. Only that much of the music, be it rap, metal, pop, classical or whatever, that has violent themes to it, is not entirely free of blame.


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Old 11-11-2007, 10:48 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Which is pretty much how almost every law in modern democracies are made.
Yes I was deliberately stating the obvious there.
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I think you're making simplistic assumptions and archetypes.
Perhaps, though I'm not referring to one individual post. I'm commenting on a general impression I've gotten from reading a number of posts from these tragedy threads. The most sharply-worded posts are those which raise the banner of personal liberty/personal responsibility over all else.
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I get the feeling from your post, that those who are blaming the individual are taking shortcut answers. That is false.
Judging from the rest of your post, I would say it is false in your case. I would not dare to assume though that you actually meant to speak for everyone else.
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Blaming gun culture could also be a shortcut answer. Assuming that those who blame the individuals instead of the gun ignore social factors is also false.
Yes, of course, and I would have raised the same issue conversely if these threads kept leaving me with that alternative impression.
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...The problem is much more complex... What I do know is that it is not possible to blame a single factor.
We agree at least on this.


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Old 11-11-2007, 11:38 PM   #53
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I see...I understand what you meant to do.

I just find it interesting that someone is there to question ideologies rather then join into the ideological debate. I'm not saying it's not good, but that it's odd and something I don't see often.


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Old 11-11-2007, 11:44 PM   #54
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^^ It's a dirty job but someone has to do it.


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Old 11-12-2007, 01:16 AM   #55
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Switzerland is a poor example because, if I am not mistaken, they are erquired to be a part of the military. Perhaps though it is kind of telling that those areas where the least gun crime takes place are areas where there is more care taken to teach PROPER use of the gun. I think it is important to allow firearms in the world. I lived in Colorado at the time of Columbine. One of my friends was a teacher there. He helped several students escape. He wished that he had his own firearms available to him. This represents the law abiding versus the criminal. The law abiding person like my friend respects the law that he is not to carry his pistol on campus. The criminal doesn't care about the law.

I can(should I desire it) go out right now and purchase an M60("I know a guy" kind of thing). They are not legal in this area. As far as I know it is illegal to purchase them anywhere in the US. This is not to brag, nor claim that its extremely easy to do so, but IF I can do it, I know I am not the only one who can.

At any rate, BACK to the topic. This is another terrible tragedy. It is very sad to see that another country now has a school shooting tragedy. Any massacre is a horrible thing. Its too bad this person didn't start with eliminating himself first.
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Old 11-12-2007, 01:27 AM   #56
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In many different situations, a gun would be VERY useful. I like your example that has to do with the Columbune shooting, but it is very illegal for a teacher to have any sort of weapon on a school campus. As I said in some situations a gun would be very useful, and in this situation I think that it would have been very useful if the teacher was willing to risk his/her life.
As you said, " The criminal doesn't care about the law", I think is 100% right on! The criminal made the decision to do whatever he/she wanted to do. People MAY have be able to try to help the person, but if that person has a very strong will to do something, then the person will most likely do it.

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Old 11-12-2007, 10:50 AM   #57
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Quote:
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Switzerland is a poor example because, if I am not mistaken, they are erquired to be a part of the military. Perhaps though it is kind of telling that those areas where the least gun crime takes place are areas where there is more care taken to teach PROPER use of the gun.

Actually, not at all. It's a good example of an area where there's a huge amount of guns, a lot of people who are trained marksmen, but gun violence is low. The argument against such an example is on the social side where there's indeed none of the major problems seen in other industrial country due to Switzerland's isolation. Won't stop a kid from being bullied in his teenage years and going berserk on people, but actual everyday gun crime is insanely low. We could go on and on about why the Swiss love their firearms, but that's the necessary information.


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Old 11-12-2007, 12:41 PM   #58
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I can(should I desire it) go out right now and purchase an M60("I know a guy" kind of thing).
the sad part is that you can go to just about any gun-show and buy all the parts you need to build any assortment of illegal firearms. It's not illegal to own all the parts, or eve have 99% of the parts put together, just illegal to have all the parts together and the weapon functioning.


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Old 11-12-2007, 03:07 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Web Rider
Only that much of the music, be it rap, metal, pop, classical or whatever, that has violent themes to it, is not entirely free of blame.
Would "not entirely free of blame" apply to video games, too?


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Outside of not getting laid, I can hardly find something similar between all of them.
FPS, anyone?


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Old 11-12-2007, 06:58 PM   #60
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Would "not entirely free of blame" apply to video games, too?
FPS, anyone?
And the parents who buy those games for their kids who aren't old enough to have them, or the kids they know aren't stable enough to make the difference between reality and game.

It applies to any person who even utters the word "gun". To a degree. But it's still, and I'll say it once again for emphasis, it's still the person who chose to go commit those act's fault.


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Old 11-12-2007, 07:59 PM   #61
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But it's still, and I'll say it once again for emphasis, it's still the person who chose to go commit those act's fault.
Thats what it boils down to.

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Old 11-12-2007, 09:32 PM   #62
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Actually, not at all. It's a good example of an area where there's a huge amount of guns, a lot of people who are trained marksmen, but gun violence is low. The argument against such an example is on the social side where there's indeed none of the major problems seen in other industrial country due to Switzerland's isolation. Won't stop a kid from being bullied in his teenage years and going berserk on people, but actual everyday gun crime is insanely low. We could go on and on about why the Swiss love their firearms, but that's the necessary information.
We have a lot of "trained"(I quote, because tons of people have orange cards here) marksmen, especially hunters, and a few military rifle collecters like myself here in East KY, and there is very little gun crime, which is odd considering the amount of drug crime around here. I think part of this is that guns have little "mystique" here; they're everyday tools for getting food and suchlike.





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Old 11-13-2007, 02:11 PM   #63
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And the parents who buy those games for their kids who aren't old enough to have them, or the kids they know aren't stable enough to make the difference between reality and game.
Or shopkeepers who sell the game to kids, or software developers of p2p software making the download of the game easy as nothing. Basically, as a parent, you are held responsible for dealing with the irresponsibility of many others. The main factor stays present on all scenarios: the existence of those games.

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But it's still, and I'll say it once again for emphasis, it's still the person who chose to go commit those act's fault.
From a certain age on, yes. But teenagers, clearly no.


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Old 11-13-2007, 02:23 PM   #64
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Or shopkeepers who sell the game to kids, or software developers of p2p software making the download of the game easy as nothing. Basically, as a parent, you are held responsible for dealing with the irresponsibility of many others. The main factor stays present on all scenarios: the existence of those games.

From a certain age on, yes. But teenagers, clearly no.
no, the important factor, the ONLY factor that truly matters is that a person CHOSE to commit violent acts.

First off: its illegial to sell the game to minors. Aside from a few small shops, big chains check ID when a small kid comes through with a mature game. It is also Illegal to bootleg the games in that manner. In that case, your "precious child" who can do no wrong, is breaking to law to get those games. While the store may have simply been irresponsible to sell the game to your kid, bootlegging is illegal,

So if your kid is trying to buy a violent game, he's trying to break the rules. If your kid is bootlegging a game, he IS breaking the rules. if your kid kills people because of a game that he broke the rules to get, it's your kid's fault.

And it applies to all ages, people from a certain age or maturity level up are entirely responsible for their actions. Teens are no exception because of raging hormones.


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Old 11-13-2007, 02:43 PM   #65
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Most loonies don't get their guns the legal way anyway, they either steal it or purchase from illegal sources.
According to the Victim Policy Center study
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In 62 percent of the handgun shootings (26 cases), the handguns were acquired legally.
In 71 percent of the long-gun shootings (12 cases), the guns were acquired legally.
So according to VPC most guns used in US school shooting since 1980 were gotten by legal means. An Analysis of the Firearms Used in High-Profile Shootings, 1963 to 2001
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In addition, an October 2000 study of school shootings by the United States Secret Service National Threat Assessment Center looked at 37 violent incidents in schools. The study found that the weapons of choice were firearms, and that in nearly two-thirds of the incidents the attackers obtained the guns from their own home or that of a relative. In some instances, the guns had been gifts from their parents. The study also determined that more than half of the attackers had a history of gun use.
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Old 11-13-2007, 02:45 PM   #66
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I'm not sure Corinthian was refering only to school shootings.


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Old 11-13-2007, 02:47 PM   #67
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I'm not sure Corinthian was refering only to school shootings.
Sorry misunderstood.

Edit: but the report is not only dealing with School Shootings but with High-Profile Shootings from 1963-2001. Of those shooting most firearms were gotten legally. The numbers would be inflated anyway consider how easy it was to purchase a hand gun in the 60s and 70s. If they included Charles Whitman in this study that would also greatly increase that number considering how many weapons he took with him that infamous day.

Last edited by mimartin; 11-13-2007 at 03:05 PM.
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Old 11-13-2007, 02:49 PM   #68
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Sorry misunderstood.
well our two posts are a bust now.


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Old 11-13-2007, 03:36 PM   #69
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I'm sure most of those guns were acquired legally. Of course, the kid stole them from his parents before he went on the spree more than likely.
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Old 11-13-2007, 04:48 PM   #70
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I'm sure most of those guns were acquired legally. Of course, the kid stole them from his parents before he went on the spree more than likely.
I also read about how in a couple of the school shootings that the guns were stolen from neighbors and friends of the family.

This begs the question in school shootings were you have underage perpetrators killing with guns taking from the parent’s night stand or the neighbor’s garage how much is the gun owner responsible for not locking up the gun or using trigger locks to prevent unauthorized use of their weapon?

While I agree with Web Rider that the person committing these violent acts is ultimately responsible, I do not believe that is the only factor that matters. I believe by being a gun owner you have taken a responsibility onto yourself to ensure that you do everything possible to make sure that gun is not misused in anyway. So to me that means trigger guards, gun safes and general gun safety (that also means not giving the key or the combinations to minors) . So in my opinion the person that allowed their gun to be used in these shootings either voluntary or involuntary can also share in the guilt for these crimes to a certain degree if they did not do everything possible to keep the firearms out of the hands of a minor or someone that has mental or criminal problems.
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Old 11-13-2007, 05:05 PM   #71
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Of course the parent bears some responsibility for the kid's action. Heck, they should bear a LOT of the responsibility. The problem is that they're unwilling to accept any responsibility and would rather blame it on TV and video games.

If somebody is determined to go on a killing spree, they'll find their way around a trigger lock or a gun safe. Might take him a while, but he'll do it eventually. The REAL problem is that parents aren't doing their jobs properly.
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Old 11-13-2007, 05:19 PM   #72
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While I agree with Web Rider that the person committing these violent acts is ultimately responsible, I do not believe that is the only factor that matters. I believe by being a gun owner you have taken a responsibility onto yourself to ensure that you do everything possible to make sure that gun is not misused in anyway. So to me that means trigger guards, gun safes and general gun safety (that also means not giving the key or the combinations to minors) . So in my opinion the person that allowed their gun to be used in these shootings either voluntary or involuntary can also share in the guilt for these crimes to a certain degree if they did not do everything possible to keep the firearms out of the hands of a minor or someone that has mental or criminal problems.
as I've said already, there is much blame to pass around. I had to emphasize my focus on the criminal being responsible when Ray tried to twist the "primary factor" in kids killing people from being the kid being at fault to the game being at fault.

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The REAL problem is that parents aren't doing their jobs properly.
not true, most parents ARE doing their jobs properly. Hence why there are more responsible people with guns than without, and school shootings are still largely anomalous things, they are 1 or two people in only a handful of schools out of hundreds of thousands of kids.


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Old 11-13-2007, 05:25 PM   #73
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Thank you, Webrider, for completely missing the point. I'm not talking about the average, non-loony schoolkid. Geez.
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Old 11-13-2007, 05:44 PM   #74
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oh so now you're talking about the crazy kids. before you were talking about more than just those. if we're all going to assume here we're gonna make alot more mistakes than that. and yeesh, no need to get pissy at me.


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Old 11-13-2007, 05:48 PM   #75
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Uh...what? I've been talking about those the entire time.
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Old 11-13-2007, 06:01 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mimartin
So to me that means trigger guards, gun safes and general gun safety (that also means not giving the key or the combinations to minors)
I think the whole point of a weapon is that you have it ready at hand, for immediate use. What would I need a weapon for (the so often stated reason of "self defence") when I first have to go downstairs enter a code to get to the basement where I have three locks and five fingerprint scanners before I can get the gun to hassle around with a trigger lock so I can blow that guy's ass off?


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Originally Posted by Web Rider
So if your kid is trying to buy a violent game, he's trying to break the rules. If your kid is bootlegging a game, he IS breaking the rules. if your kid kills people because of a game that he broke the rules to get, it's your kid's fault.
It's hardly a kids fault that people create influences that hypothetical makes my kid go and kill people. It may to a certain degree be my fault, because I might have done something wrong with how I raise my child, or missed out to teach my child no to kill or whatever. The point is, *I* as a parent and my child have to deal with the fact that so many fail to show a minimum of responsibility.

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And it applies to all ages, people from a certain age or maturity level up are entirely responsible for their actions. Teens are no exception because of raging hormones.
Not to "your" laws. Kids can't vote, drive a car, buy cigarettes or booze. Why would that be?


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Old 11-13-2007, 06:17 PM   #77
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It's hardly a kids fault that people create influences that hypothetical makes my kid go and kill people. It may to a certain degree be my fault, because I might have done something wrong with how I raise my child, or missed out to teach my child no to kill or whatever. The point is, *I* as a parent and my child have to deal with the fact that so many fail to show a minimum of responsibility.
if your kid isn't at fault for their actions when they kill somebody, then it's hardly your fault for raising him badly. And you can't really blame those guys who make games, they were just influenced by society, and I mean, society is controlled by the government and media, so it must be George Bush and Ted Turner's fault.

I always knew Time Warner, Disney and the IRS were the cause of all school shootings.[/sarcasm]

get a grip. If you buy your kid a violent game, and they go and kill people, you can't blame the game because they abided by the law and only sold it to adult. it you an adult, YOU who gave it to your kid. So if your kid does something bad and you're looking for blame, look no farther than a mirror.

Quote:
Not to "your" laws. Kids can't vote, drive a car, buy cigarettes or booze. Why would that be?
maybe, because if you actually read what I wrote, I said "above a certain age or maturity level", since those people aren't above a certain age or maturity level, they aren't responsible for certain things. Killing people is still something that people of most ages are responsible for.


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Old 11-13-2007, 06:35 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Jones
I think the whole point of a weapon is that you have it ready at hand, for immediate use. What would I need a weapon for (the so often stated reason of "self defence") when I first have to go downstairs enter a code to get to the basement where I have three locks and five fingerprint scanners before I can get the gun to hassle around with a trigger lock so I can blow that guy's ass off?
To me the entire point of having a gun for self-defense is making sure it is not used by the criminal first and foremost. Kind of pointless to be robed and murdered in my home with my own gun isn’t it? I have trigger guards and a gun safe and Carl Lewis couldn’t make it from the front door to my bedroom door before I have a shell in the chamber of my shotgun and the trigger guard off. Yes, I use a shotgun for home protection because there is no real need to aim it.

With a little practice, a trigger guard is not that time consuming to remove. Anyway I’d rather be killed in the unlikely event I am robed by someone with a gun then take the chances of being killed with my own gun or have someone use my firearms to murder an innocent victim.

Also I only need one firearm outside the safe to protect myself so there is not need to fumble with the gun safe.
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Old 11-13-2007, 07:11 PM   #79
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Actually, the whole point of having a gun for self defense is so you can defend yourself. If the entire point of having a gun for self defense is making sure you're not killed with it, aren't you better off having no gun at all?
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Old 11-13-2007, 08:01 PM   #80
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Quote:
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Actually, the whole point of having a gun for self defense is so you can defend yourself. If the entire point of having a gun for self defense is making sure you're not killed with it, aren't you better off having no gun at all?
I guess if you are so lame with a firearm that you can't unlock, insert a shell and arm it in the time it takes someone to break your door down or climb through a window then no you shouldn't have a firearm. If they get in faster than I can do all that, I have a personalized Louisville Slugger waiting for them. It is armed and unlocked and child safe.

More likely someone is going to break in when your not home. They find your unlocked gun and go to steal it. You surprise them; you are then killed by your own gun.

It is not difficult you can protect yourself and be responsible too.
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