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Old 01-18-2008, 12:35 AM   #1
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First Human Embryo Cloned!

The first cloning of a human embryo has occurred on a small laboratory on San Diego, California by a fertility doctor. Would more scientists step up to the plate and try their own experiments?? Will cloning finally be allowed? Please comment

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Old 01-18-2008, 12:40 AM   #2
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I for one, bow before our Cloned Overlords. Sounds like a pretty cool step towards absolute Clonocracy to me, and I'm okay with it. I just have an irrational fear of clones.


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Old 01-18-2008, 01:37 AM   #3
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I think this must be another hoax. Remember that a few years ago someone else made this claim. It was big news, but was totally false.

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Old 01-18-2008, 02:29 AM   #4
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They all say that until the Grand Army of the Republic comes in through the ceiling.
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Old 01-18-2008, 02:45 AM   #5
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I think this must be another hoax. Remember that a few years ago someone else made this claim. It was big news, but was totally false.
I honestly have to say that I agree. Until I hear something on a National News Channel or website, with proof, I think that it is a hoax. IMO.

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Old 01-18-2008, 03:00 AM   #6
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Here you go guys, 47 articles.


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Old 01-18-2008, 03:09 AM   #7
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Cloning humans is against nature. I am fully supportive to things that can help humanity. Like cloning Meat to solve world hunger. But cloning humans is completely different. Haven't you watched any movie where cloning is the main topic (The sixth day). What comes after cloning? All of the sudden someone might make a perfect human that might want to make more perfect humans and take over the world (Any robot thriller). Where's the line?


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Old 01-18-2008, 06:51 AM   #8
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Why is cloning against nature?? It is not. Basically, nature does the same when creating offspring. Also, clones are technically nothing negative, and are not going to kill us all just because they're clones. After all a human clone with human DNA *is* a human being. And human beings with human DNA behave exactly like human beings with human DNA.

At the end of the day it's all about how we treat them, how we deal with them, and what perspective we give them. If we're gonna make clones and throw them into a pit to sell them as slaves or something like that, the expected thing to happen sooner or later is told by human history already.

However, I don't think that the human species is in need for "producing" more human offspring than we already do the "old fashioned" way. But I also doubt that anybody is currently trying to do so. It's just an experiment, and (in case this ain't a hoax) an embryo is really still far away from being grown up.


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Old 01-18-2008, 12:08 PM   #9
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Someone PM Jae, she'll love to comment on this, regardless of its veracity.
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Cloning humans is against nature. I am fully supportive to things that can help humanity. Like cloning Meat to solve world hunger. But cloning humans is completely different. Haven't you watched any movie where cloning is the main topic (The sixth day). What comes after cloning? All of the sudden someone might make a perfect human that might want to make more perfect humans and take over the world (Any robot thriller). Where's the line?
You haven't thought this through. Look at ordinary medicine. Through advances in treatment and lifestyles we've gone from an expected lifespan of 30 years (the Ancient Egyptian era) to 80+ years. We're curing and treating ailments that were death sentences less than half a century ago, such as HIV. We keep people who would otherwise have died a long time ago alive on respirators. I knew a guy in Houston who was paralyzed from the neck down, and was able to move around in society with his electric wheelchair, operating his own personal laptops with his brain. If you're against cloning because it's too 'radical', you have to be against ordinary medical science, too.

You mention the classic argument where a group of supermen control the world. But what you have to realize is that this scenario is just as possible with normal medicine. If antibiotics, the knowledge of how to conduct CPR, intravenous drip, respirators, knowledge on how to sanitize hospitals, asthma medicine, vaccinations, and all the other inventions of medical science became restricted to only a small elite, you could perfectly have that elite live to the age of 80 and rule a proletariat of weak and unhealthy people who died at the age of 30 from multitudes of preventable diseases.

As for nature - well, most of medicine, from CPR to vaccinations to ordinary band-aids, is against nature. The wild mammals' way of treating ailments is to lick wounds and let everything else heal - or get worse- by itself. And talking about how to treat clones it nonsensical as they're human beings just like the rest of us. It's like having a huge debate about how to treat people who are immune to HIV, or vaccinated against cancer.


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Old 01-18-2008, 01:44 PM   #10
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YES!

Cloning is finally here, guys! Now we no longer have to restort to 'lust' to reproduce.


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Old 01-18-2008, 02:12 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Now we no longer have to restort to 'lust' to reproduce.
Yes and we can get rid of those other useless emotions like Love and Compassion. Lust is a part of human sexuality, but it is not the only part.

It does not bother me if they completed this experiment. I believe the reason most Christians are against human cloning is that it is said that only God can create a soul. So if they ever actually completed this line of experiments to clone a human either it would be a soulless monster or a normal human copy. If it is a soulless monster it only proves the experiment failed, but if it is normal human copy that would cause some to question their faith.


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Old 01-18-2008, 02:21 PM   #12
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Wow...




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Old 01-18-2008, 02:29 PM   #13
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Old 01-18-2008, 02:46 PM   #14
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On the other hand, Mimartin, it could be a completely new person. God works in mysterious ways, as they say, and who's to say he'd have any trouble giving a Clone a soul, any more so than he'd have giving a normal fetus one? I can't imagine any - omnipotence, remember?
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Old 01-18-2008, 03:15 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinthian
On the other hand, Mimartin, it could be a completely new person. God works in mysterious ways, as they say, and who's to say he'd have any trouble giving a Clone a soul, any more so than he'd have giving a normal fetus one? I can't imagine any - omnipotence, remember?
That is exactly the reason why I said I didn't have a problem with these experiments.


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Old 01-18-2008, 03:24 PM   #16
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Awesome. Maybe now Bush can start replacing those Blackwater mercs with cloned supersoldiers...





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Old 01-18-2008, 03:48 PM   #17
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It does not bother me if they completed this experiment. I believe the eason most Christians are against human cloning is that it is said that only God can create a soul. So if they ever actually completed this line of experiments to clone a human either it would be a soulless monster or a normal human copy. If it is a soulless monster it only proves the experiment failed, but if it is normal human copy that would cause some to question their faith.
So what if they don't have souls? We know from Simpsons that besides from the fact that automatic doors don't open to them for them and that animals hate them, they do just fine.

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Old 01-18-2008, 03:51 PM   #18
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So what if they don't have souls? We know from Simpsons that besides from the fact that automatic doors don't open to them for them and that animals hate them, they do just fine.
LOL. it served Bart right for selling his soul so cheaply.


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Old 01-18-2008, 06:09 PM   #19
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Though this doesn't really worry me much, I do have one concern.

This clone, is still human, will become a human child, a human teen, and a human adult. I can only hope that the science nerds don't treat this soon-to-be human as some sort of guinea-pig and that the religious nuts don't try anything and that people in general simply don't make a big deal out of it.


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Old 01-18-2008, 08:40 PM   #20
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Thanks for the link Sabre.

Anyways, I really don't know what to think about it. There is one thing that I really don't understand, how is this embryo going to survive without a 'mother' to support it? I may have missed it in the news link...but regardless...

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Old 01-18-2008, 10:39 PM   #21
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Isn't there a problem with telomere lengths and cloned animals?


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Old 01-19-2008, 01:36 AM   #22
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I was talking about this subject with someone that I know, and they actually said that it was for stem cell research and use. Not sure though....

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Old 01-19-2008, 01:42 AM   #23
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I think the embryo could be frozen and therefore put in stasis until they find a possible mother.


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Old 01-19-2008, 01:57 AM   #24
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Has there ever been proof that cryogenics work on humans? I have to say that I find this story very interesting. There are a lot of questions that pop up.

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Old 01-19-2008, 02:49 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Rev7
Thanks for the link Sabre.

Anyways, I really don't know what to think about it. There is one thing that I really don't understand, how is this embryo going to survive without a 'mother' to support it? I may have missed it in the news link...but regardless...
likly in the same way any person without a father survives. Or an adopted child survives. I don't really think, if this embryo is allowed to develop all the way, that they'll be able to put up a sound argument to dump it on the street or use it as a lab rat.

"In other news, I heard scientists are using lawyers instead of lab rats now. First the scientists get less attached to the lawyers, and second there some things even rats won't do."


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Old 01-19-2008, 04:19 AM   #26
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Sorry for the misunderstanding WR. I meant that I don't think that the embryo will last very long without a mother to support it while it is still developing into a baby. IMO.

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Old 01-19-2008, 06:11 AM   #27
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The keyword here is stem cell research, not giving birth to a child. However, in vitro fertilisation is nothing new to the world.


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Old 01-19-2008, 06:42 AM   #28
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I was talking about this subject with someone that I know, and they actually said that it was for stem cell research and use. Not sure though....
Remodeled into blastosis, or the final stage of an embryo before it begins to turn into a fetus.

But, that's not the goal. Instead, Stemagen wants to use cloned embryos to make customized stem cells for medical treatments yet to be invented.
Yesh. Can't believe I missed that. Thanks, Rev.

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Old 01-19-2008, 01:25 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Jones
Why is cloning against nature?? It is not. Basically, nature does the same when creating offspring. Also, clones are technically nothing negative, and are not going to kill us all just because they're clones. After all a human clone with human DNA *is* a human being. And human beings with human DNA behave exactly like human beings with human DNA.

At the end of the day it's all about how we treat them, how we deal with them, and what perspective we give them. If we're gonna make clones and throw them into a pit to sell them as slaves or something like that, the expected thing to happen sooner or later is told by human history already.
I think you said it best. I for one wholeheartedly support human cloning and am honestly glad that there has been some development in this field. Someone here mentioned the movie The Sixth Day as an argument against cloning. I think that regardless of how mistreated clones were in that movie we should also look at some interesting ideas that the movie gives us. Humans have always wanted to achieve immortality. Now, I realize that what I'm about to say is extreme science fiction, but remember that the main antagonist in The Sixth Day used cloning combined with microchip transmitter technology to make himself immortal in a way. OK, now an even more extreme example of science fiction is that TV show The First Wave, where the aliens transferred their consciousnesses from one body to the other. Imagine if one day our science and knowledge of the human brain could advance to such a level that we can effectively transfer our consciousness to another copy of our body before our current one dies. Extreme science fiction, I know, but still an interesting idea. Think about the medical uses at least - someone is dying from an inoperable tumor. You clone his body and transfer his consciousness, effectively saving his life.

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Old 01-19-2008, 01:39 PM   #30
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Yesh. Can't believe I missed that. Thanks, Rev.
Ouch. Yeah, can't believe I missed it too. Believed in the hype.

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...extreme science fiction...
igyman, I suggested such a technology as a method to allow for the moral use of the death penatly. "Let revoke death!"

Discussion however, turned quickly against the idea, despite convicing an anti-'death penatly' advocate that the idea has merit.

Dagobhan Eagle claims that the first person who is died would STILL BE DEAD. It's not the memories that makes the person but also the body itself. I responded, and DE replied back, andI made a final attempt.

Samuel Dravis then talked about how effective the 'punishment' actually would be, and I suggested that there will be a limited amount of clones a person can have, meaning that a person must pay for more clones, and the fines necessary to stay alive would act as a sufficent deterrent. Oh, and memory of the actual death itself, that would scar the person as well.

What's your view, igyman? Would clone immortality allow for the use of the death penatly, even for minor offenses, since death can easily be 'reverted' and a person can still live? Would clone immortality actually work, or...would the idea of 'souls' that makes a person who he is, not his memories, that matters? Strangely enough, I encountered a person who does not believe in religion at all, but instead believe in souls, and that souls are what makes a person.


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Old 01-19-2008, 02:43 PM   #31
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Silentscope, you might find this an interesting read. I recommend you pick up the book and read the actual story, but the summary is fairly good.


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Old 01-19-2008, 04:26 PM   #32
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I don't know what to think about clones. They are obviously medically incredibly useful in terms of stem cells etc., and all the logical arguments for are pretty convincing, but I doubt I'm the only one who would be a wee bit uncomfortable with my genetic copy being out there somewhere. Typically woolly 'against' argument, but hey.
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Old 01-19-2008, 05:38 PM   #33
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Yesh. Can't believe I missed that. Thanks, Rev.
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Ouch. Yeah, can't believe I missed it too. Believed in the hype.
Your welcome. Knowing that it was for stem cell research answered a lot of questions.

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Old 01-19-2008, 06:40 PM   #34
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Your welcome. Knowing that it was for stem cell research answered a lot of questions.
For this specific debate I suppose, but we're all well aware the next step is a full-grown human.

As for your mention about a mother, do you mean the gestation period? I suppose designing an artificial womb is on the list somewhere.


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Old 01-19-2008, 07:03 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
What's your view, igyman? Would clone immortality allow for the use of the death penatly, even for minor offenses, since death can easily be 'reverted' and a person can still live?
First of all, I have to say that I don't support the death penalty. I think that by thinking we have the right to take a life of even the worst of offenders makes us no better than said offender.
Now, from a technical point of view I guess the "pseudo death penalty" could work, but it would be an extremely barbaric method of punishment in my opinion, regardless of the ability to "bring that person back", because the point of that sort of penalty would be the memory of that feeling when you die, not death itself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Would clone immortality actually work, or...would the idea of 'souls' that makes a person who he is, not his memories, that matters? Strangely enough, I encountered a person who does not believe in religion at all, but instead believe in souls, and that souls are what makes a person.
Like I said above, it's a very interesting idea (at least to me), but it's still only science fiction. If it would ever be possible to avoid death by means I described above, in order to avoid all the negative repercussions you mentioned in your post, humanity would need to evolve a lot more when it comes to our nature. If we could learn to become less selfish and think of the human race as a whole, instead of just looking after our own rear ends (something along the lines of Star Trek's humanity), I suppose we could function as a society with that kind of immortality.
As for the second part of the question - I don't believe in souls, but I do believe that we are all unique in personality and I accept the psychological explanations as to how that personality is formed during our childhood as the most plausible and rational ones.

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Old 01-19-2008, 07:31 PM   #36
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As for your mention about a mother, do you mean the gestation period? I suppose designing an artificial womb is on the list somewhere.
I was refering to the gestational period, I just couldn't remember the word.
I myself, don't think that an 'artificial womb' would be able to support a baby. I may be wrong, but that doesn't seem to add up in my brain.

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Old 01-19-2008, 07:32 PM   #37
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I was refering to the gestational period, I just couldn't remember the word.
I myself, don't think that an 'artificial womb' would be able to support a baby. I may be wrong, but that doesn't seem to add up in my brain.
I think it could, I think it's just a lot more complicated than it first sounds. Oh artificial womb, no big deal right? wrong.


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Old 01-19-2008, 07:37 PM   #38
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Exactly, I think that it could take a lot of money, and time to do something like that. As far as I can see, an artificial womb really ( give or take some women who want a 'new' womb, meaning that it was taken out) would only be made for this one purpose. Cloning. I think that something that holds life should have to be flawless (of course that is not possible...). It is really a complex thing if you ask me.

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Old 01-19-2008, 07:39 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Rev7
Exactly, I think that it could take a lot of money, and time to do something like that. As far as I can see, an artificial womb really ( give or take some women who want a 'new' womb, meaning that it was taken out) would only be made for this one purpose. Cloning. I think that something that holds life should have to be flawless (of course that is not possible...). It is really a complex thing if you ask me.
I don't really think it would only be for cloning, I think it could also be used for women who are infertile, ie: they wouldn't need another woman to birth their child. Though I see the problem being dehumanizing humans to the point were we DO get the whole cloned army stuff and second-class "clone" citizens who are less because they were born in a machine vs a woman.


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Old 01-21-2008, 04:57 AM   #40
Ray Jones
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Samuel Dravis then talked about how effective the 'punishment' actually would be, and I suggested that there will be a limited amount of clones a person can have, meaning that a person must pay for more clones, and the fines necessary to stay alive would act as a sufficent deterrent. Oh, and memory of the actual death itself, that would scar the person as well.
I think death penalty and cloning are of somewhat exclusive nature against each other. Also, simple cloning is by no means able to produce a cc of the cloned individual. I mean, the clone still has to grow and all that stuff, that takes a long while, as we all might have noticed. Also, to create a handful of clones with every embryo that has just been developed sounds not very useful and would, at the end of the day have no point. And seriously, taking DNA out of a newly developed embryo does not sound too clever either.

The whole idea of "clone punishment" is utterly stupid, naive and useless.


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Would clone immortality actually work, or...would the idea of 'souls' that makes a person who he is, not his memories, that matters?
Ever thought that souls also might be connected to a persons memory? Plus, like I've said before, cloning is not able to make a perfect copy of anything else than a given DNA, let alone the fact that this DNA might have been already taken damage or whatever due to external factors. The clone is only a genetic twin of the cloned person at best. Cloning of complete individuals does not work to achieve "immortality". Cloning single cells and replacing them sounds like the better approach for that.

However, building exact copies of cells using nano-technology should beat cloning by lengths anyway. That could also enable us to cc of any human as is sooner or later.


Quote:
Strangely enough, I encountered a person who does not believe in religion at all, but instead believe in souls, and that souls are what makes a person.
Indeed, very strange. How many religions propagate the idea of souls?


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