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Old 02-13-2008, 12:36 AM   #41
Totenkopf
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Quite so actually. Does not the government get away with more? Do not it's officials seem to have more freedom to do things that would normally get Average Joe in trouble? And indeed, most people probably regard criminals as less than human. That's why they're called criminals, and not "humans", in order to strip them of their humanity and make it easier for us to agree with imprisoning them.
If one takes your logic to its natural conclusion, then Canadians are more human than Chinese, b/c clearly Canadians enjoy a greater degree of freedom than their Chinese counterparts.
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So you would agree that an ECG is a bad standard to judge humanity by?
I'd say it was good for checking for electrical impulse activity.
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Much as they retain human DNA for many many years after death, they are indeed no longer "human". You can't really claim the dead are afforded freedom of speech. The right to bear arms. They WERE human, yes, but since they're dead....
So, if the remains aren't human, what species are they?

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I would say that measurable brainwave activity does prove that a human fetus is more than just an indeterminate lump of amorphous tissue mass. As to the offal about cancers and hands being "people" somehow b/c they contain any human DNA, well.....you said it, not me.

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Ah, but YOU said that fetuses were more than fish because they contain human DNA, and thus, that's why they get rights. My hand has human DNA, therefore it should have the same rights as humans. I suggest you define "brainwave activity" before we go further, because, as I have continually pointed out, cats have brainwaves too, in fact, most living organisims with brains have brainwaves.
Get real. Your argument is that a human fetus is less human b/c it share similarities in appearance with other animals at various stages of development. It's a discredited argument and not something to be taken seriously. Fish and humans are genetically nonviable for purposes of procreation. What will the future hold? Who knows, but it won't be relevant to this conversation in the here and now.
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We are discussing laws here are we not? The banning of abortion is something done by governments. If people don't want to HAVE abortions, it is a matter of enough people being unwilling to give them and enough people not getting them, not a peice of paper....anyway. But debilitated is NOT what I spoke of before now was it? I specially said "braindead" people. There is a massive difference between those who are braindead and those who are missing a leg. Their rights are not being violated, there is no right that says a person MUST live at all costs. People die, it happens. This person would die without somebody intervening. If somebody who's not paid with my taxes wants to do that? great! if not, well, then let nature take it's course.
I'd say brain dead qualifies as a severe form of debilitation. Apparently, when you look at the history of human "civilization", there is no hard and fast rule that says a person must live at all.
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My my, you really don't read anything I post. I said people would listen to him. I never said who would. I simply said that becase of his position and number of supporters he has a rather hefty weight riding with his words.
Well, frankly, you did in fact say: people. My response didn't limit itself to one or two specific groups. I merely state that it's really stretching credulity to assert that the president's position on the issue is going to trump all other sources of info a person has on this subject. Presidential policies to "discourage" some formal school based system of sex-ed does not equal information blackout. Anyone who looks to a president for learning about the birds and the bees is as stupid as the educated person who abuses narcotics thinking it won't happen to him/her. Don't know about you, but I've never heard anyone say "I'm not using prevention b/c the president says it's wrong".

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You are also apparently good at putting words in my mouth. I said he was a weighty source because of his political position. not the only one, not necessarily the best one even. Just a weighty one.
Actually, you're the one being a bit disingenuous here. You're imputing far too much value to the president's position on sex ed in the schools vis-a-vis people's behavior.

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If these people truly believed the president, why they'd also be far more likely to abstain and thus deprive you of such a silly position in the first place.

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"these people" are not generally in a position to care honestly. They are married, or like you say, abstain. But because the president has decided this way, they feel it is their duty to enforce that position upon others.

Not clear on your point here. Are you trying to assert that the president's policy is forcing everyone to abstain or be forced into abstaining? The "these people" I was referring to were the ones unduly influenced by the president's position on sex-ed (whoever they are).

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Most "youths" these days believe that everything besides traditional sex isn't sex. Is that's Clinton's doing? maybe. probly their parents had a hand in it too.
Clinton as cultural icon of sorts, perhaps. Their parents probably by default (ie not taking time to discuss these issues w/their kids most likely, all the more so with the proliferation of smut on the web and pop culture in general).



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{post#28}
Ah, yes, the usual emotional argument that somehow trumps all other postions. Abortion should be freely available to all b/c a statistically insignificant # of people (who could be taken into account under law) have suffered a grievous misdeed.

{post#35}
Ah, yes, the usual emotional argument that somehow trumps all other postions. Abortion should be freely available to all b/c a statistically insignificant # of people (who could be taken into account under law) have suffered a grievous misdeed.

Consult the emboldened print above. The rest is cute, but irrelevant.
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ninja'd eh? Sorry, if you check the quote in my post, you will see that that line did not exist when I first quoted you. Actually, before the Roe V Wade, they were taken into account by the law. The Law said "no".
Perhaps you forgot to read. Go back and check. The only diff between the 2 is that I used bold print the 2nd time around.

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I believe you will find that self inflicted injury is not common among the highly educated and that mental disorders, such as depression, bipolar, anxiety, and others, play a role in such a thing. Self-inflicted things are generally the result of an unstable mind.
Now that's a quaint notion......educated minds are axiomatically stable ones.


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We know that drinking and driving don't go together, but that abuse hasn't ended.
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That is likly due to the pathetic attempts schools do at educating people on the subject.
Fascinating. You're implying that barring a formal school class, people don't have the sense to figure out that driving intoxicated is stupid. Do these people all live in a vacuum?

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No, I believe they are doing it because they are addicted and can't stop. I believe education on the subject could prevent it entirely, and help treat those addicted, instead of calling them criminals and throwing them in a cell.
You're leaving out a very big step here. They had to take the drugs (in most cases voluntarily) FIRST before an addiction could ever develop. They may need to be educated about how to get off of a particular substance after an addiction has formed, though.


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How about adults who in engage in extramarital affairs that produce children? They didn't know pregnancy was a possible end result of sex?
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I think they selectivly chose to believe that it would not happen to them. However, I do believe that many people are geniunely surprised when they get preggers after sex. WHY? Because there is a great emphasis on sex in our culture, but NOT on SAFE sex.
But what about all that education they had that was supposed to prevent them from engaging in the act (or at least in an "unprotected" state) in the first place? Oops, guess none of that learning took too well.


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Education alone, without any enforcement mechanisms, is utterly useless. About as vainglorious as saying that the enemy will stop fighting you if only you could get him to sit down and see the sweet light of (your) reason. Nice try.

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If your enemy saw the "light" of your line of thought, then logically your enemy now believes that your line of thought is truth, and therefore would not fight somebody he agrees with. No, I believe better education can stop these things before the start.
Sorry, that just smacks of extreme naivete`. You missed the point, though. There is an underlying and somewhat arrogant assumption that YOU can "educate" someone to do things YOUR way, when their goals are often contradictory to yours.


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Last edited by Totenkopf; 02-13-2008 at 05:19 PM.
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Old 02-13-2008, 01:01 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Totenkopf
If one takes your logic to its natural conclusion, then Canadians are more human than Chinese, b/c clearly Canadians enjoy a greater degree of freedom than their Chinese counterparts.
I would likly agree with an argument that the Chinese are looked at as a lower set of humans due to their being prevented from "being all they can be" so to speak.

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I'd say it was good for checking for electrical impulses/brainwave activity.
Then we agree that the ECG is not a good unit of measure when looking for "humanity".

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So, if the remains aren't human, what species are they?
When people talk about remins, it geneerally goes: "these are the remains of a human" or "these are human remains" in short, they are what remains of what was once a human.

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Get real. Your argument is that a human fetus is less human b/c it share similarities in appearance with other animals at various stages of development. It's a discredited argument and not something to be taken seriously. Fish and humans are genetically nonviable for purposes of procreation. What will the future hold? Who knows, but it won't be relevant to this conversation in the here and now.
no, that's not my argument. My argument is that if ANYTHING with human DNA should be given rights, my hand should not be legally allowed to be forced by myself to excercise my freedom of speech. My argument is: human DNA does not mean something is human. Cancer has human DNA and we remove it all the time. While human DNA may be a FACTOR in what makes a human, it is not the only one. To argue that ALL something needs to be human is human DNA is a false argument.

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I'd say brain dead qualifies as a severe form of debilitation. Apparently, when you look at the history of human "civilization", there is no hard and fast rule that says a person must live at all.
Can I call fuzzy numbers? Death is the most extreme form of debilitation. Why do we deprive the dead the right to live? It is illegial to kill yourself in most states. Is not your body's own self destruction violating that law?


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Well, frankly, you did in fact say: people. My response didn't limit itself to one or two specific groups.
your response explicitly selected the people who elected the president as the group agreeing. And if you thought I was including chimps, thou art having much silly thoughts.
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I merely state that it's really stretching credulity to assert that the president's position on the issue is going to trump all other sources of info a person has on this subject.
I stated for clarification that it did not trump all others. In fact any opinion or research only trumps others if a person chooses it over others. I stated it was a weighty opinion due to the prestige of his political position.
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Presidential policies to "discourage" some formal school based system of sex-ed does not equal information blackout.
The president started a plan to offer 1 million dollars to any school that would teach abstinence ONLY. Which, a number of schools have turned down based on INFORMATION BLACKOUT of safe sex practices, and the fact that 1 million is diddily.
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Anyone who looks to a president for learning about the birds and the bees is as stupid as the educated person who abuses narcotics thinking it won't happen to him/her. Don't know about you, but I've never heard anyone say "I'm not using prevention b/c the president says it's wrong".
Guess that's where we differ, I have. What can I say, I agree, but I have heard that assertion.

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Actually, you're the one being a bit disingenuous here. You're imputing far too much value to the president's position on sex ed in the schools vis-a-vis people's behavior.
If you wish to look up the number of schools that teach abstinence only, and how many started AFTER Bush was elected, you are welcome to do so. As it is, I have only memories of newspaper articles which I cannot present here in any other form than "I remember...."

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Not clear on your point here. Are you trying to assert that the president's policy is forcing everyone to abstain or be forced into abstaining? The "these people" I was referring to were the ones unduly influenced by the president's position on sex-ed (whoever they are).
That the people who are not unduly agreeing, but willfully agreeing, are using the fact that the president said it, as clout against those who disagree.

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Consult the emboldened print above. The rest is cute, but irrelevant.

Perhaps you forgot to read. Go back and check. The only diff between the 2 is that I used bold print the 2nd time around.
ah, yes, it does appear I missed that, apologies. Still, in earlier times, the law said: "women must hold a place(the womb) for her husband's seed" and later less infringingly, that they couldn't get abortions in many places till after Roe v Wade.(though apparently she's changed her mind and is married to a radical anti-abortionist)

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Now that's a quaint notion......educated minds are axiomatically stable ones.
My implication was only that educated minds are less prone to such self-inflictions, either because their minds are more stable or because they realize what's going on in their head before they act on it and get help.

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Fascinating. You're implying that barring a formal school class, people don't have the sense to figure out that driving intoxicated is stupid. Do these people all live in a vacuum?
Barring a formal class, people find out drunk driving is bad by getting drunk, driving, and then killing others or being killed. Now, since drunk driving is still happening, I would glean that the classes that are supposed to dissuade you from driving drunk are not as effective as they should be. I certainly don't approve of the "guess and check" method when it comes to playing with lives.

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You're leaving out a very big step here. They had to take the drugs (in most cases voluntarily) FIRST before an addiction could ever develop. They may need to be educated about how to get off of a particular substance after an addiction has formed, though.
Indeed, and other people in general need to be educated on how to help them do that. Working under the assumption that they took the drugs voluntarily likly means that any kind of information given to them regarding drugs and avoiding them was insufficient.

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But what about all that education they had that was supposed to prevent them from engaging in the act (or at least in an "unprotected" state) in the first place? Oops, guess none of that learning took too well.
It's sad that we are only recently learning that all people learn differently. it seems so obvious. In any case, "education" is not limited to those who would do it, but also those who would propose to educate others. One cannot claim to be able to educate if those in their charge are not learning.

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Sorry, that just smacks of extreme naivete`. You missed the point, though. There is an underlying and somewhat arrogant assumption that YOU can "educate" someone to do things YOUR way, when their goals are often contradictory to yours.
People convert to different religions all the time. While it is true that nobody changes your mind but yourself, you cannot even attempt to change your mind without first getting a new and different set of information regarding a subject. So, if one does not attempt to sit down with ones enemy, neither you nor your enemy could even being to see each others POV to even attempt to change your minds.


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Old 02-13-2008, 02:56 AM   #43
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Rather than going on a point by point basis, I have a few questions:

1)What, for you, is the conclusive proof that something/one is human?

2)If a human female delivers a chimpanzee to term and it is born alive, is it now human?

2a)If society grants that chimp the same rights as a human being, it it now human also?

3)How did we get this far as a species before the invention of formal education?

4)Do you really believe that people who go to the "school of hard knocks" are too stupid to figure out that driving intoxicated/stoned is a bad idea?

5)Do I need a class to tell me that pointing a loaded gun at my head and pulling the trigger is suicidally dangerous, or will being told by my parents as a youth/ actually observing someone else do it suffice?

6)Does the fact that someone might try to classify another group of people as "subhuman" for political/economic reasons actually make them so?

7)Do you believe that your enemy/adversary is going to do what you want simply because you ask him to? Human history seems to say otherwise.

8)Why do you believe that b/c an administration wants to push abstinence only programs that that means there is an effective blackout on sex-ed info given the fact we are in the age of information(tv/mags/internet, etc..)?

9)Realizing, as you've noted already, that some people have an immortality complex, do you not see that very bright people will still make a slew of stupid decisions based on their own egos overriding their better judgement?


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Old 02-13-2008, 05:41 AM   #44
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Old 02-13-2008, 10:05 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Web Rider
that sounds like really poor math IMO. I mean, I realize it's difficult to say " This fetus is EXACTLY X weeks along." But it sounds really iffy. I mean, if they know that they're generally about 2 weeks off, why don't they just adjust their weeks instead of totally throwing people off with flipping back and forth between "base 8" and "base 10".
Gestational dating is the most common convention used in pregnancy, and dating from the date of the last period is the easiest device for women and docs to work with for pregnancy dating purposes. I would use gestational dating exclusively, but there's been some confusion in this thread between gestational dating vs. embryo development age, so I tried to include both in the specific cases that were discussed here (date of first heartbeat in particular).

It's actually easy to determine fetal age through the first trimester--the growth in the fetal crown-to-rump length is nearly uniform from baby to baby for the first 12 weeks or so, and if you know the crown-to-rump length you can figure out the date of conception pretty much to the day.

Btw--ECG is the same as EKG--both measure cardiac activity. EEG is electroencephalogram, which measures brain activity, so I'll use that convention here.


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Old 02-13-2008, 11:50 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Totenkopf
Rather than going on a point by point basis, I have a few questions:
1)What, for you, is the conclusive proof that something/one is human?
Keep in mind these are not the ONLY things, just some that come to mind. It needs to be born, it needs to not require constant(and by constant I mean every waking second, not every 6 hours or so), nourishment and protection, it needs to be able to survive outside a specially designed containment unit(ie: a womb) for an extended amount of time to a reasonable degree of success. it needs to be capable of at least minimal cognitive thought, and of course, contain human DNA and a human form.

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2)If a human female delivers a chimpanzee to term and it is born alive, is it now human?
Since this is not possible, I shall not address it.

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2a)If society grants that chimp the same rights as a human being, it it now human also?
in the same way that if society grants somebody under 18 the same rights as those over 18, yes. So....socially, yes, genetically, no.

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3)How did we get this far as a species before the invention of formal education?
I have no idea. I wouldn't be surprised to learn of primitive hunters teaching other hunters good ways to throw rocks and sticks. "formal" in the past could appear very "informal" to us now. Humans are social creatures after all.

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4)Do you really believe that people who go to the "school of hard knocks" are too stupid to figure out that driving intoxicated/stoned is a bad idea?
yeah, 'cause I met 'em. They didn't figure it out till they totaled their car or hurt somebody. My school had at least 1 person die annually from car accidents, often related to drunk driving.

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5)Do I need a class to tell me that pointing a loaded gun at my head and pulling the trigger is suicidally dangerous, or will being told by my parents as a youth/ actually observing someone else do it suffice?
You still required somebody other than yourself to inform you what a gun was, and what it did, and why you shouldn't do it. I'm not proposing that the ONLY place to get an education is in a brick room. only that those attempting, those in that brick room, must be less than successful when looking at current drunk-driving rates.

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6)Does the fact that someone might try to classify another group of people as "subhuman" for political/economic reasons actually make them so?
Genetically? no. Socially? yes. This has pretty much been the way it's worked for thousands of years. If people are willing to buy it, well, then I guess it's true enough for them.

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7)Do you believe that your enemy/adversary is going to do what you want simply because you ask him to? Human history seems to say otherwise.
I believe my enemy may question his motivation when he sees I'd rather talk things out than just kill him. The only outcome from violence is more violence.

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8)Why do you believe that b/c an administration wants to push abstinence only programs that that means there is an effective blackout on sex-ed info given the fact we are in the age of information(tv/mags/internet, etc..)?
Because they've said so. Bush has said it in his speeches.

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9)Realizing, as you've noted already, that some people have an immortality complex, do you not see that very bright people will still make a slew of stupid decisions based on their own egos overriding their better judgement?
Quite possibly. They are only human. No amount of anything currently available can change that. Of course, I find egotistical intelligent people to be somewhat contradictory.

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Originally Posted by Darth InSidious
Web Rider, there's a word for people you consider 'inferior': untermenschen.
ooooo, a Nazi comparason. You wound me....oh, wait, no you don't, since I know all you're doing is going: "OMG! You think some people are less human! You teh Nazi!!11! lol"


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Old 02-13-2008, 05:17 PM   #47
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So, where exactly do you stand on what makes a human actually human? I see you include a partial list, but then revert to this duality argument about cultural/social vs genetic. This is part of the kind of reasoning that gave us things like anti-semitism, racism, anti-religious bigotry. It seems to me that if you qualify as "genetically" (ie the byproduct of human conception between two other humans) human, your membership in the human race is assured. The fact that some political power doesn't see fit to give you certain rights and privileges doesn't make you any less human. Frankly, using some of your reasoning, if a "robot" attains a degree of self awareness in it's programing and has a chip that incorporates some human DNA, as well as having a human form, it is not merely a sentient being, but human as well. If all it took to rob someone of their humanity was a government proclamation, there'd be no need for outfits like human rights watch or amnesty international b/c it wouldn't be human beings that were being tortured or discriminated against......thus there be nothing for them to protest in their current forms.

Also, you demonstrate throughout that people don't actually need formal education on a lot of subjects b/c they can get it through personal observation, friends, family, etc.. The fact that an administration decides not to use federal funds for a certain type of sex-ed program DOES NOT equal an effective info blackout b/c the administration is only one of a myriad of sources of information. People are still free to organize and give their own presentations, advertise their services via the media, etc.. to get the word out. What you're showing me is that people just get more and more adept at blaming others for their own personal behaviors and failures.

@Jae--good catch, should have corrected that myself in an earlier post (esp given the # of med professionals in my family).


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Old 02-13-2008, 07:19 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Totenkopf
So, where exactly do you stand on what makes a human actually human? I see you include a partial list...
What I gave you were the best things I could think of that combined made something a human. Given those things, I am more than likly to say that the thing with those is a human.

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but then revert to this duality argument about cultural/social vs genetic. This is part of the kind of reasoning that gave us things like anti-semitism, racism, anti-religious bigotry.
Such cannot be helped. There is no way to accurately define humanity, even based on DNA, because each person's DNA is unique. How can we say that X strand of human DNA is a good base for humanity? It must also be socially defined. Yes, socially defined things don't always produce GOOD results, but "good" is a relative term and as long as humans do human things, society will continue to produce "bad" things.

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It seems to me that if you qualify as "genetically" (ie the byproduct of human conception between two other humans) human, your membership in the human race is assured. The fact that some political power doesn't see fit to give you certain rights and privileges doesn't make you any less human.
As part of the human species? yes, but laws are not part of our biology. one cannot claim that we should outlaw abortion because some marker in our DNA says so. "Humanity" in our current debated context is also assigned through social customs and norms, if we were to follow your rules, we could not say that people have the right to free speech, and then say schools can mandate what kids can and cannot say because they are younger humans. While the hypothetical government in question cannot strip you of your genetic connection to the human race, many government have historically be rather effective at doing so anyway.

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Frankly, using some of your reasoning, if a "robot" attains a degree of self awareness in it's programing and has a chip that incorporates some human DNA, as well as having a human form, it is not merely a sentient being, but human as well.
I would agree that due to those factors, said robot has a good argument for claiming to be human. Lets take the robot girl in the Alien Resurrection movie, she looked human, acted human, and had human biological components, she was self aware and sentient. I would say she had a strong case for being human. Even if she was not 100% human. But, as I already said, though some of our DNA says "this being is human", some of it also denotes that we are all different, even if very slightly, therefore, it is impossible to say that one particular, complete strand of DNA is a base for humanity.

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If all it took to rob someone of their humanity was a government proclamation, there'd be no need for outfits like human rights watch or amnesty international b/c it wouldn't be human beings that were being tortured or discriminated against......thus there be nothing for them to protest in their current forms.
That is all it takes, is a government proclamantion. Conter to your point however, such statements are only true if people accept them to be. You or I or a government can CLAIM anything we want, and it will only become truth, even if it's a lie, it will only become truth with people accept it as such. Until then it's just an opinion.
And human rights groups exist because they do not subscribe to that particular opinion.

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Also, you demonstrate throughout that people don't actually need formal education on a lot of subjects b/c they can get it through personal observation, friends, family, etc..
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The fact that an administration decides not to use federal funds for a certain type of sex-ed program DOES NOT equal an effective info blackout b/c the administration is only one of a myriad of sources of information.
in the area where it is being taught, and not being learned of ones own volition it does. But yes, it does not equal and information blackout EVERYWHERE, but it does equal one in a place that is supposed to be about teaching information, not censoring it.

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People are still free to organize and give their own presentations, advertise their services via the media, etc.. to get the word out. What you're showing me is that people just get more and more adept at blaming others for their own personal behaviors and failures.
You are welcome to demonstrate to me a K-12 institution that teaches abstinence only but allows for the hand outs of sexual-protection devices or information on campus.


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Old 02-13-2008, 08:51 PM   #49
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I almost hate to say this, but you're a bit confused. Something is true or not. The # of people who say something is true does not change that fact. It only shows a new truth: that people are willing to suspend their own good judgement b/c someone told them to or forced them to. Green is green, even if 65% of the people say it's blue. The only possible exception to this is to change green and blue by their very definitions to match your new "reality".

Using your apparent definitions of what constitutues humanity allows for people to robbed of their "rights" simply b/c they are declared subhuman/untermenschen or undesirables. The fact that someone will relegate you to a lesser status does not in fact MAKE you less human, it just allows for you to be treated as such on whimsy. If I take over your town, throw you in a dungeon and leave you to rot....are you truly less human in fact or just treated as though you were? People talk about perception being reality, but if your neighbors think you're a pedaphile, are you now? If one takes your approach, the answer is resoundingly yes.
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if we were to follow your rules, we could not say that people have the right to free speech, and then say schools can mandate what kids can and cannot say because they are younger humans.
Perhaps you can clarify this statement.

Frankly, you've already conceded that an administration policy is not the final say on access to information and confirmed my assertion that people who fail to learn will always find a way to blame others. It is you that is hung up on the idea that all learning must somehow be channeled through the school system. Are you an education major, perchance?

I'd be a little careful about buying too much into relativism. The commies and nazis used the same tactics. Hitler and Goebbels were big on propogating the big lie as truth. If I can convince enough people that jews, gays, gypsies and slavs are subhuman, then now they are.


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Old 02-13-2008, 08:58 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Totenkopf
I almost hate to say this, but you're a bit confused. Something is true or not. The # of people who say something is true does not change that fact. It only shows a new truth: that people are willing to suspend their own good judgement b/c someone told them to or forced them to. Green is green, even if 65% of the people say it's blue. The only possible exception to this is to change green and blue by their very definitions to match your new "reality".
Truth is only objective because you believe it to be. Which makes your take on truth a subjective one. If people say the color green is to be named blue, it is blue. While it does not change the color, the color will henceforth be known as "blue".

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Using your apparent definitions of what constitutues humanity allows for people to robbed of their "rights" simply b/c they are declared subhuman/untermenschen or undesirables. The fact that someone will relegate you to a lesser status does not in fact MAKE you less human, it just allows for you to be treated as such on whimsy. If I take over your town, throw you in a dungeon and leave you to rot....are you truly less human in fact or just treated as though you were? People talk about perception being reality, but if your neighbors think you're a pedaphile, are you now? If one takes your approach, the answer is resoundingly yes.
quite correct, and that's nothing new.


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Frankly, you've already conceded that an administration policy is not the final say on access to information and confirmed my assertion that people who fail to learn will always find a way to blame others. It is you that is hung up on the idea that all learning must somehow be channeled through the school system. Are you an education major, perchance?
no, but I don't honestly trust people to learn themselves, I think most people must be taught. Formal or otherwise, the desire to learn of ones own volition is not universal.

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I'd be a little careful about buying too much into relativism. The commies and nazis used the same tactics. Hitler and Goebbels were big on propogating the big lie as truth. If I can convince enough people that jews, gays, gypsies and slavs are subhuman, then now they are.
And is that not what we do when we argue abortion? Argue shades of truth in order to get more people to agree with us so that we can use that weight to legislate our POV?


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Old 02-13-2008, 09:09 PM   #51
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Truth is not relative, except to the relativist.

You do realize that you only confirmed my point about green/blue, as I already said it would require a redefining of the "truth" for your pov to make any sense.

Are you saying that if people think your a pedophile, you are or just the first part of that block?

Well, how do you account for all the lack of learning going on in the school system currently? How many people graduate from schools and still behave like blithering idiots? A person will only learn what they want to learn, regardless of the source.

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And is that not what we do when we argue abortion? Argue shades of truth in order to get more people to agree with us so that we can use that weight to legislate our POV?
Perhaps you do.


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Old 02-13-2008, 09:42 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Totenkopf
Truth is not relative, except to the relativist.

You do realize that you only confirmed my point about green/blue, as I already said it would require a redefining of the "truth" for your pov to make any sense.
which I said several times throughout my posts. We have redefined 'science' in some schools, we have changed the definition of a 'child' to change the definition of 'life', all in order for a certain POV to make sense.

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Are you saying that if people think your a pedophile, you are or just the first part of that block?
If enough people think you are a pedophile, then just like the Communist Witch-hunts, people will treat you like one, regardless of the fact that you are not. That fact is unsupported by the people, and therefor ignored.

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Well, how do you account for all the lack of learning going on in the school system currently? How many people graduate from schools and still behave like blithering idiots? A person will only learn what they want to learn, regardless of the source.
I attribute it to parents, society, and governments that do not encourage the learning and education of others. I attribute it to teachers who don't care, administration who treat students like criminals, and a myriad of societal issues.

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Perhaps you do.
Have not you been presenting your beliefs and facts to support them in order for I an others to see your POV, and possibly agree with it?


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Old 02-13-2008, 09:50 PM   #53
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So, essentially, there is no truth, only what society believes? And the left like to consider themselves the scientific ones as opposed to the religious right-wingers.
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Old 02-13-2008, 10:00 PM   #54
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So, essentially, there is no truth, only what society believes? And the left like to consider themselves the scientific ones as opposed to the religious right-wingers.
and if I were left, that might concern me, or even be remotely accurate. You and I have different truths, is that not evidence? China and the US have different truths, Saudi Arabia and England have different truths.

While you may present your opinion that claims there is an objective truth, but the fact that millions would likely take at least one claim against it would be evidence enough that truth is relative.


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Old 02-13-2008, 10:20 PM   #55
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There is one truth. Everything else is false. The world is round. The sky is blue. 150 degrees Fahrenheit is way too bloody hot for humans, and 150 celsius is even worse. Blood is red. Staring directly into the sun will eventually cause damage to your eyes. The heart is rather important. And a lobotomy will definitely impede mental function.

None of these matter whether you're American, English, Dutch, Spanish, Arabian, Israeli, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, Ukrainian, Swiss, Swedish, Brazilian, Canadian, Madagascarian (?), New Zealand...ese...

6,499,999,999 or so people took the opposite opinion of Timothy Clydesdale here, who, let's say, believes that the Earth is round as opposed to flat, that would not make the larger group more correct. There are objective truths. The idea that Truth is different for everyone is a lie. No matter how many people say the wrong thing, the right thing remains right.

You confuse 'truth' with opinion. I can hold a belief that is not true. I cannot hold a truth that is not true, because of the very nature of truth. For example, there either is or there is not a God. People overstate the shades of grey.
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Old 02-13-2008, 10:22 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Corinthian
There is one truth. Everything else is false. The world is round. The sky is blue. 150 degrees Fahrenheit is way too bloody hot for humans, and 150 celsius is even worse. Blood is red. Staring directly into the sun will eventually cause damage to your eyes. The heart is rather important. And a lobotomy will definitely impede mental function.

None of these matter whether you're American, English, Dutch, Spanish, Arabian, Israeli, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, Ukrainian, Swiss, Swedish, Brazilian, Canadian, Madagascarian (?), New Zealand...ese...

6,499,999,999 or so people took the opposite opinion of Timothy Clydesdale here, who, let's say, believes that the Earth is round as opposed to flat, that would not make the larger group more correct. There are objective truths. The idea that Truth is different for everyone is a lie. No matter how many people say the wrong thing, the right thing remains right.

You confuse 'truth' with opinion. I can hold a belief that is not true. I cannot hold a truth that is not true, because of the very nature of truth. For example, there either is or there is not a God. People overstate the shades of grey.
"facts" and "truths" are not always the same things.


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Old 02-13-2008, 10:23 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Web Rider
which I said several times throughout my posts. We have redefined 'science' in some schools, we have changed the definition of a 'child' to change the definition of 'life', all in order for a certain POV to make sense.
Seems to me that it's not the definition of life that's at stake, but rather a matter of when it starts (more for social than medical reasons). Afterall, we all know that an inseminated human ovum will only develop into a human being and no a cat or other animal.


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If enough people think you are a pedophile, then just like the Communist Witch-hunts, people will treat you like one, regardless of the fact that you are not. That fact is unsupported by the people, and therefor ignored.
But your logic dictates that if they believe you are, you are. Not merely that you will be treated like that. An important distinction that you keep ignoring.

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I attribute it to parents, society, and governments that do not encourage the learning and education of others. I attribute it to teachers who don't care, administration who treat students like criminals, and a myriad of societal issues.
But what about the students who don't want to be bothered learning? Don't they carry a lion's share of the responsibility? You can give a child a book, but you can't actually force him to learn something if he won't cooperate.

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Have not you been presenting your beliefs and facts to support them in order for I an others to see your POV, and possibly agree with it?
Difference is that, unlike you, I don't buy into the relativist distinction of "yours"/"mine" when it comes to the facts. They are or are not.


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Old 02-13-2008, 10:25 PM   #58
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My thesaurus disagrees with you, Web Rider.
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Old 02-13-2008, 10:30 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Totenkopf
Seems to me that it's not the definition of life that's at stake, but rather a matter of when it starts (more for social than medical reasons). Afterall, we all know that an inseminated human ovum will only develop into a human being and no a cat or other animal.
it may also die, or be seriously deformed. IF a correctly developed sperm inseminates a correctly developed ovum, that ovum MAY attach itsself to the utirine lining and MAY develop into a fetus posessing human DNA and then MAY continue to develop into a correctly formed human male, female, or "other".

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But your logic dictates that if they believe you are, you are. Not merely that you will be treated like that. An important distinction that you keep ignoring.
Americans are so quick to ignore the group for the individual. What does your personal truth matter if nobody believes you?

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But what about the students who don't want to be bothered learning? Don't they carry a lion's share of the responsibility? You can give a child a book, but you can't actually force him to learn something if he won't cooperate.
When a child does not want to learn, we must address why. Rare to never is the reason "I don't like learning."

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Difference is that, unlike you, I don't buy into the relativist distinction of "yours"/"mine" when it comes to the facts. They are or are not.
Proof only, that your opinion, not the facts, differer from me.

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Originally Posted by Corinthian
My thesaurus disagrees with you, Web Rider.
Your thesaurus was written by people, who are part of society, which regularly changes the definition and meaning of words. In short: your thesaurus means nothing because it's definition is only accurate for the here and now.


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Old 02-13-2008, 10:31 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Corinthian
There is one truth. Everything else is false. The world is round. The sky is blue. 150 degrees Fahrenheit is way too bloody hot for humans, and 150 celsius is even worse. Blood is red. Staring directly into the sun will eventually cause damage to your eyes. The heart is rather important. And a lobotomy will definitely impede mental function.

None of these matter whether you're American, English, Dutch, Spanish, Arabian, Israeli, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, Ukrainian, Swiss, Swedish, Brazilian, Canadian, Madagascarian (?), New Zealand...ese...

6,499,999,999 or so people took the opposite opinion of Timothy Clydesdale here, who, let's say, believes that the Earth is round as opposed to flat, that would not make the larger group more correct. There are objective truths. The idea that Truth is different for everyone is a lie. No matter how many people say the wrong thing, the right thing remains right.
It is interesting how all of your examples are 1) objective and 2) material. I do agree with that, by the way, but I am curious whether you find whether something without a material component can be assigned truth-values (demons' existence, etc).


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Old 02-13-2008, 10:45 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Web Rider
it may also die, or be seriously deformed. IF a correctly developed sperm inseminates a correctly developed ovum, that ovum MAY attach itsself to the utirine lining and MAY develop into a fetus posessing human DNA and then MAY continue to develop into a correctly formed human male, female, or "other".
Relevance?
Quote:
Americans are so quick to ignore the group for the individual. What does your personal truth matter if nobody believes you?
What difference does this make? A rock is a rock, by any other name b/c of it's composition. You can change the word you use to describe it, but its composition is unaffected by your linguistic gymnastics.

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When a child does not want to learn, we must address why. Rare to never is the reason "I don't like learning."
Yes, and we've already shown that you can learn info from a variety of sources.

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Proof only, that your opinion, not the facts, differer from me.
Actually, only proof that you're a relativist and I'm not.


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Old 02-13-2008, 11:57 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Totenkopf
Relevance?
that the birth of what society and genetics would deem a "human" is not the only, and as you seemed to imply, inevtiable outcome of conception.


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What difference does this make? A rock is a rock, by any other name b/c of it's composition. You can change the word you use to describe it, but its composition is unaffected by your linguistic gymnastics.
A rock yes. What about morality? Or god? or laws? or the value of trees? or the taste of fish? If "facts" were all that mattered in the universe, the Spanish Inquisition would never have happened. Hitler would never have murdered millions, and so on. I think it is beyond evident that "facts" are not the ONLY source for "truth".

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Yes, and we've already shown that you can learn info from a variety of sources.
since you have obviously failed to get my point which I have emphaticlly stated many times, I'm not going to continue this particular line.

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Actually, only proof that you're a relativist and I'm not.
Proof that your "truth" about life, the universe, and everything, differs from mine because of your stance as a non-relativist.


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Old 02-14-2008, 02:46 AM   #63
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Unfortunately, you miss on a lot of points yourself. I never asserted that all pregnancies carry to term, only that the end product would only be human in composition. Also, you get too hung up on one example. Concepts like morality may change, but objects don't change just because you seek to redefine them for the sake of your own convenience. If I'm in charge and choose to say that all people with red hair are pedaphiles, and the vast majority of my subjects agree, that still doesn't make it true. You still have to change the meaning of that word and then it loses its original impact.

I got your original point about education, which you've refined somewhat along the course of this discussion. People have to learn things to be able to make good/better decisions. Education, though, is not restricted to merely one venue and that's what invalidated your original point (which was that an abstinence based education program by an administration was going to effectively become an info blackout......very overstated, unfortunately).

Truth, to have any meaning, must be based in facts. Anything else is just opinion or sheer unsubstantiated speculation. The only truth in them being that you believe them no matter the evidence. If my "truth" is that women have no virtues, that does not make my "truth" remotely realistic, even though I might cling to it and insist otherwise. You'd be more accurate to say "views" in this semantic dance than to fall back on choosing "truth" as your operative phrase.


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There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

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Old 02-14-2008, 06:18 AM   #64
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ooooo, a Nazi comparason. You wound me....oh, wait, no you don't, since I know all you're doing is going: "OMG! You think some people are less human! You teh Nazi!!11! lol"
Funny.

And yet, somehow, amidst all that rhetoric, you completely failed to offer a rebuttal of my point.

Also, it's "comparison".



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Old 02-14-2008, 11:09 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinthian
There is one truth. Everything else is false.
Is that so?

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The world is round.
Really? Was it 100000000000000 years ago? What's in 5000000000000 years? Is the 'world' round then?

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The sky is blue.
Night sky ain't. Mars' sky ain't. etc

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150 degrees Fahrenheit is way too bloody hot for humans, and 150 celsius is even worse.
Too hot for what? There's like 6 million C within the sun, and I like that.

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Blood is red.
Well not exactly.
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Originally Posted by wiki on blood
Hemoglobin

Hemoglobin is the principal determinant of the color of blood in vertebrates. Each molecule has four heme groups, and their interaction with various molecules alters the exact color. In vertebrates and other hemoglobin-using creatures, arterial blood and capillary blood are bright red as oxygen impacts a strong red color to the heme group. Deoxygenated blood is a darker shade of red with a bluish hue; this is present in veins, and can be seen during blood donation and when venous blood samples are taken. Blood in carbon monoxide poisoning is bright red, because carbon monoxide causes the formation of carboxyhemoglobin. In cyanide poisoning, the body cannot utilize oxygen, so the venous blood remains oxygenated, increasing the redness. While hemoglobin containing blood is never blue, there are several conditions and diseases where the color of the heme groups make the skin appear blue. If the heme is oxidized, methemoglobin, which is more brownish and cannot transport oxygen, is formed. In the rare condition sulfhemoglobinemia, arterial hemoglobin is partially oxygenated, and appears dark-red with a bluish hue (cyanosis), but not quite as blueish as venous blood.

Veins in the skin appear blue for a variety of reasons only weakly dependent on the color of the blood. Light scattering in the skin, and the visual processing of color play roles as well.

Skinks in the genus Prasinohaema have green blood due to a buildup of the waste product biliverdin.

Hemocyanin

The blood of most molluscs, including cephalopods and gastropods, as well as some arthropods such as horseshoe crabs contains the copper-containing protein hemocyanin at concentrations of about 50 grams per litre. Hemocyanin is colourless when deoxygenated and dark blue when oxygenated. The blood in the circulation of these creatures, which generally live in cold environments with low oxygen tensions, is grey-white to pale yellow, and it turns dark blue when exposed to the oxygen in the air, as seen when they bleed. This is due to change in color of hemocyanin when is it oxidized. Hemocyanin carries oxygen in extracellular fluid, which is in contrast to the intracellular oxygen transport in mammals by hemoglobin in RBCs.
What would you like, white, green, red, blue, yellow, colourless?

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Staring directly into the sun will eventually cause damage to your eyes.
Depends on how long you stare, and what's before our eyes.

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The heart is rather important.
When it's not beating?

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And a lobotomy will definitely impede mental function.
Not when that part of the brain wasn't functional to the begin with, for instance.


There is no truth at all. There is space, time, and causality.


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Old 02-14-2008, 11:12 AM   #66
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The extermination of Jews was based around that they were less human than the Aryans. So...yeah.

Yes, the world was round then, or the world did not exist, in which case the question is moot. Before the world was round it WAS NOT A PLANET and thus not a world. *Price is right failure music*

Actually, the night sky IS blue, just a very dark blue that the stars shine through. You'll notice it's not black if you look very closely. Also, failing to use context to determine what I'm referring to is simply being a pain, it's not clever or amusing in any way, shape, or form. It doesn't matter that Mar's sky isn't blue, because I wasn't referring to Mars.

Alright, you go to the sun. When the flesh runs off your bones like wax, lights on fire, turns to ash, and is then sucked into the gravity well and becomes raw carbon within the sun, we'll talk again.

Again, ignoring context. When I say Blood is Red, It's readily apparent that I'm referring to healthy human blood. Stop ~snipped~.
And stop deliberately flame-baiting. --Jae

I said eventually. And staring directly. *Price is right failure music. Again.*

Yes, it is. Because when it's not beating, it means someone is dead or close to it. *Price is right failure music...again.*

Name one part of the brain that is completely non-functional.

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Old 02-14-2008, 11:26 AM   #67
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I've noticed a trend lately with people correcting others' spelling. If you need to do something tacky like that, please do it in PM--it's off-topic when you do it in a post.

Also, for those of you whose spelling could be better, try writing your longer posts in Office Writer or Word and using the spellcheck feature. This will make it much easier to understand the points you're trying to make. There are also some Firefox extensions that have spellcheck features built in (e.g. BBCodeXtra). I'm sure other browsers have something similar.


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Old 02-14-2008, 11:40 AM   #68
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And how about keeping to the topic at hand? Now there's a novel idea!




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Old 02-15-2008, 01:58 AM   #69
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So... 50,000,000 abortions since 1973, and 5,000,000 abortions since the Iraq war began. Yeah... Abortion IS out of hand. It must end, or at least be resricted considerably. However, whoever invented condoms was a genius. Imagine what would happen if condoms weren't ever invented. We'd be talking about 100's of millions of abortions then.

To quote soemthing from the site i linked: "Yeah, let all the children cry- if they could."

How's that for guilt for all this out of control abortion? Huh?
Or have we humans lost our morality and don't feel guilty for murder anymore?


Please feed the trolls. XD
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Old 02-15-2008, 02:20 AM   #70
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The problem is that the abortionists and their confederates refuse to see the the victims of their slaughter as human. No humans being killed, no murder. It is for them a simple equation.


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Old 02-15-2008, 02:57 AM   #71
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The problem is that the abortionists and their confederates refuse to see the the victims of their slaughter as human. No humans being killed, no murder. It is for them a simple equation.
For some, that might be true, others think only the (relativley) few late abortions can be considered murder.


Checking out seems not to do much.
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Old 02-15-2008, 04:10 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcesious
How's that for guilt for all this out of control abortion? Huh?
"Out of control" compared to what?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcesious
Or have we humans lost our morality and don't feel guilty for murder anymore?
By what arguments should we consider the death of non-living things "murder"?
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Old 02-15-2008, 08:42 AM   #73
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I'd say 50 million murders is out of control. *Whistle* We make Hitler and Stalin look tame, at least they weren't carving babies up exclusively.
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Old 02-15-2008, 09:03 AM   #74
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The babies are living beings. One thing no scientist seems to take into equation is this: Where does the soul come from? We are killing living beings.
The abortion rate may be dropping, very slowly, but just how many more deaths will it take before abortioners finally admit their wrongdoing? Ten million? A hundred million? A billion? We must regain our morality. Science is not the answer to everything. You can't put sentient life, a soul, into a equation. It exists, but you don't know how it works. It is murder, and things like this should be treated morally. Where is the conscience of the Human race anymore? I repeat: 50,000,000 deaths and climbing. Hitler and Stalin would be proud.


Please feed the trolls. XD
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Old 02-15-2008, 10:44 AM   #75
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Quote:
Where does the soul come from?
Does it need to exist at all?

Quote:
We are killing living beings.
Yes, just as we kill other living beings like cows, pigs, etc

Quote:
but just how many more deaths will it take before abortioners finally admit their wrongdoing?
It's not about the number of deaths, you just need to convince us we are killing "persons", and abortion will for the most part end.

Quote:
We must regain our morality.
Asuming we have lost it, sure.

Quote:
Science is not the answer to everything. You can't put sentient life, a soul, into a equation. It exists, but you don't know how it works
Funny, I tend to consider things that aren't proven to exist to, you know, not exist.

Quote:
It is murder, and things like this should be treated morally.
Then what is the morall way?

Quote:
Where is the conscience of the Human race anymore?
Where it has always been?

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Hitler and Stalin would be proud
Stalin probably wouldn't mind, Hitler would probably be rather pissed as long as some of those aborted are "aryans".


Checking out seems not to do much.
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Old 02-15-2008, 11:07 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinthian
Yes, the world was round then, or the world did not exist, in which case the question is moot.
It is not, because, the world that not is, is not round.

Quote:
Actually, the night sky IS blue, just a very dark blue that the stars shine through. You'll notice it's not black if you look very closely.
Question, how do you look at the sky very closely? Then, actually, when there is no light shining through the air, it is black, because, no light, no color. PLUS, with like tons of red shining stars out there, I doubt those will produce blue light ever.

Quote:
Also, failing to use context to determine what I'm referring to is simply being a pain, it's not clever or amusing in any way, shape, or form. It doesn't matter that Mar's sky isn't blue, because I wasn't referring to Mars.
"The sky is blue" stands to context in Earth how?

Quote:
Alright, you go to the sun. When the flesh runs off your bones like wax, lights on fire, turns to ash, and is then sucked into the gravity well and becomes raw carbon within the sun, we'll talk again.
Actually my atomic parts would be fused to iron, but on the other hand, who said something about going to the sun?

Quote:
Again, ignoring context. When I say Blood is Red, It's readily apparent that I'm referring to healthy human blood.
Is it? It is not. Could be whale blood as well.

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I said eventually. And staring directly.
last week I stared into the sun for 1 second. Directly. Nothing.

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Yes, it is. Because when it's not beating, it means someone is dead or close to it.
A not beating heart is in no way important to the dead person.

Quote:
Name one part of the brain that is completely non-functional.
Why? Lobotomy takes always care of the same part of the brain being cut. Now if that part wasn't functional because of whatever reasons, accident, intoxication, brain tumor, it won't change a bit.


*feels the cold steel of Niner's gun on his neck*

<_<;;;;

ON TO THE TOPIC AT HAND:


Firstly, who would argue that a human fetus is not human?

Plus, what we have here in this thread is comparison with murder of who knows what - underage, adult, very old, ill, handicapped, disabled, 6 million dollar man and untermenschen people. We got discussion about rights and whatnot. Why is that even relevant to the topic of abortion? All those kinds of humans have already breathed more or less fresh air, fetuses have not. "Comparison" ended.

Then there are attempts to declare a fetus as non-living whatever thing, aiming towards that something non-living cannot be killed.
??? Of course, abortion *does* kill life. At least the life of the cells making up the fetus. But again, why is that relevant?

Last but not least there is the issue about the person/non-person status due to beating hearts and working brains or lack thereof. All philosophic and linguistic poppycock. Humans are persons from the begin with. Fertilised cell - fetus - baby - child - adult - old - bug yum yum, that's the way they go. Of course, there are differences between them. In age, size, growing rate, personality, abilities, experience. This was also brought up in this thread, but with a rather incomplete train of thought behind it.

However, we cannot separate those attributes. The difference is not just that a fetus is usually smaller than an adult. Or that they have less abilities, or that they are inside a womb. The difference between a fetus and a child is *all that*. A fetus cannot speak, walk, grows at different rate, is way smaller, eats different etc. All this is directly tied to but one attribute: age. And according to a persons age we can make certain whether a human is fetus, child, or grown up.

Also, the "purpose" or "main focus" of a human person changes with their age, something like children learn, adults work, old teach. I realise there are no clear lines between those things, but while one may never stop learning, the rate at which he is doing so decreases with increasing age. So at the end of the day, it pretty much is like this. Does that mean something? -- It does. It means, that with increasing age, the importance of one human regarding the forthcome of the whole species is changing. Simple example, the older humans are the more risky are their pregnancies, up to the point where old people can't create offspring anymore. While that *does not* mean that old are useless in any way, it simply means that children are more important to the forthcome of species than adults are, even if they are not yet sexual mature. Another point is that children (from a certain age on), despite a definite lack of experience, knowledge, or even strength, have good chances to survive, even if there are no elderly humans to help them out, also due to the fact that a certain level of knowledge and strength comes on its own.

What does that mean concerning the unborn fetus? -- Obviously that the unborn fetus offers almost *zero* possibility to make the human species survive on its own. Means, despite being the ultimate essence of surviving of human life, it is utterly use-/helpless on its own. This also means, that it makes no sense to protect that unborn life before all born life under all circumstances. Thus protecting the unborn fetus causing the mother to die makes no sense, even more, it means risking that this mother organism will never be able to add anything regarding human offspring (like caring for her other baby, etc), and thus it is a risk to the whole forthcome of humanity.

Okay, turtle eggs? Turtle eggs usually never see their mother again, their "content" *is supposed* to survive on its own, this cannot compared to a human fertilised egg.

It simply is illogical to say that the unborn human life has to be treated the same way born life is. There are so many differences, it seems impossible from whatever perspective.

Hm. Now what is abortion anyway? It is not a contraceptive, nor murder, nor the invention of irresponsible teens who just want to **** their brains out of their behinds.

It is but one thing: termination of a pregnancy on purpose.

Nature does that all the time. Most women trying to get pregnant have at least one miscarriage without even noticing it because they simply have their "time of the month" or it's like one of those months where they are overdue a couple of days. Then there are all kinds of pregnancies that end who knows when up to the point where the babies die during the birth. What "reasons" might nature have for those "natural abortions"? Even more, what reasons might nature have for animals that kill their own or other's offspring?

So is it right to end a pregnancy for whatever reasons, even for nature?

Where is the difference, when a raped woman miscarriages due to the stress or even her injuries even if she wanted the child, or if she actively decides to end that pregnancy?

Where is the difference between the miscarriage of the 50 year old married woman who "accidentally" got pregnant, or her possible decision to not risk her or the babies health/life due to being too old for a "no risk pregnancy"?

At the end of the day, the only difference is one decision is made consciously the other unconsciously.


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Old 02-15-2008, 11:40 AM   #77
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I've had enough of this. If you're going to be deliberately obtuse, I'm just going to ignore you.
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Old 02-15-2008, 11:48 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcesious
The babies are living beings.
Indeed they are. Abortion deals with embryos and fetuses though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcesious
One thing no scientist seems to take into equation is this: Where does the soul come from?
Science cannot take into account that for which there is no evidence. In other words: please provide evidence for this "soul".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcesious
We are killing living beings.
Only after a certain point in gestation. Existing laws ensure that this is only done with good reason. Prior to that point however, we are not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcesious
The abortion rate may be dropping, very slowly, but just how many more deaths will it take before abortioners finally admit their wrongdoing? Ten million? A hundred million? A billion?
And if what they are doing isn't "wrong"? Doesn't seem that there would be much to "admit" in that case, does there?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcesious
Science is not the answer to everything.
The process of finding answers is not an answer? Okay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcesious
You can't put sentient life, a soul, into a equation. It exists, but you don't know how it works.
Since you appear to know quite a bit about "souls", perhaps you can answer some questions for me:

At what point does the soul enter the body?
In those rare instances in which a zygote splits and becomes twins, does that soul split as well? Is each twin born with half a soul? Or is a second soul provided? Who provides it and which twin gets it?
In those rare instances in which one or more fertilized egg is absorbed, is the resulting chimera born with two souls? If not what happens to the second soul?
If the soul enters the body after the point when zygotes can split or fuse, would abortion be "immoral" prior to that point?

I look forward to reading your answers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcesious
It is murder, and things like this should be treated morally.
Indeed it should. Hence why is pleases me greatly to know that we already have existing laws for abortions that take place after the fetus is unequivocally a living thing.

Take care.
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Old 02-15-2008, 01:20 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ach
Only after a certain point in gestation. Existing laws ensure that this is only done with good reason. Prior to that point however, we are not....Indeed it should. Hence why is pleases me greatly to know that we already have existing laws for abortions that take place after the fetus is unequivocally a living thing.
It might help if you can provide a clear definition of "living". I was unaware that the fetus was apparently a necrotic mass of tissue. At what arbitrary point are you supporting the notion that a fetus morphs magically from living tissue into a "being"? Is a child in the third trimester a "living being" or is that only conveniently conditional for you as well?


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

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Old 02-15-2008, 01:56 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Totenkopf
It might help if you can provide a clear definition of "living". I was unaware that the fetus was apparently a necrotic mass of tissue. At what arbitrary point are you supporting the notion that a fetus morphs magically from living tissue into a "being"? Is a child in the third trimester a "living being" or is that only conveniently conditional for you as well?
"living" tissue and a "living" being are not the same thing.


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