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Old 02-20-2008, 03:54 PM   #1
Lung Drago
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Lightbulb A couple of suggestions...

Hello there.
I just thought about posting some of my ideas here, you might like it But before I start, I should say something about me, since I am new and this is my first post here.
Well I come from Czech Republic and I enjoyed OJP with my friends over hamachi for a year; and I can say that OJP most definately brings one of the best combat systems ever made and it has a really big potentional. I am some sort of a RP player, so things that look "cool" for me are quite important (as you will notice, hehe). Also I would like to note that I really have no idea how much can be Q3 engine stretched, so do not let your eyes fly away when reading my text, yes ? :P

As I noticed, you have, or had (since much things, like these forums or website, are strange) problems or were uncertain with practically everything; force powers, saber forms, mercs... which pleases me, I can write everything aswell ! :P

I'd like to start with Force Powers, they are the best ....
but before I can even begin with them, I must tell you the stances stuff first though...

So, lets do stances :P

I definately like implementing Shii-Cho, Makashi, Soresu, Ataru, Djem-So, Niman and Juyo lightsaber forms in the game and am utterly supporting it. Not only for RP, but it is also one of the very main things that makes the saber system more in-depth.

But here is one of my "big" new feature ideas: Not only 7 forms of lightsaber, but also 3+1 special different stances for them. Stances, easily described as: Defensive, Standard and Aggresive. These 3 stances, aside from different cool looking stances and moves, should also revamp the DP damage and other special things even further.
Now, the forms "penalties" we have here and hopefully will have more now could be possibly avoided by one of the stances. I take Juyo and the penalty "less resistable against Force Powers" as an example - yes, this will apply, but when in Defensive stance of Juyo, this penalty could be avoided or lowered; but I will loose or weaken the bonuses at that time too (less faking capabilities or even no ones). Got it ?
Stances will allow the saber-user to even more adapt to his current situation but NOTE, and that is thing required by both RP and balancing -> changing stances should trigger an animation - a very cool looking one of course, but not a very fast one. And because of that, it is unwise to change stance in a middle of fight. This sort of "transition" animation can be implented in changing between forms aswell; but since of my other suggestion, I do not count here with a number of forms available at the same time.
There is an option that Soresu would have no agressive stance available, same as Djem So no defensive one.

Now when you look at it, you maybe think "well, he limits the number of forms and replaces the lack of them by stances" which is in some point of view true BUT changing a form is big and radical change, while changing a stance is a slight and an adaption. This should reflect in the bonuses and penalties granted by these too.
I am aware that adding these stances would make the game more complex than it is now and most definately it is hard to code and do and stuff..but I just like it :P And I love in-depth games, you know. Even when it can be complicated, it will bring more options to the mod which improves it.

There is one stance I mentioned before (the special one) which I am going to explain now. If not as stance, then as a form. I call it "the Force Stance" and it is something that should allow a Jedi to be quite effective even when he happens to not have a saber by him. When in this stance, Force Powers should be more stronger or even behave differently. It will require to have saber ignited off or holstered (note that Yoda always turns his saber off when he intends to manipulate with the Force at a higher degree) and will also cause penalty to movement speed, but grants on other hand a faster Force regen. Force Powers repeat rate should be also slower (so no push push push push as hell) There should be also something to prevent quickly changing into other stance and turning on a saber when something comes close

And with this stance I will count with in these following Force Powers


=== Force Push ===
=== Force Pull ===

From my RP experience, I particulary disliked when I said " Dark Side is more powerful" and then, in a manner of demostration, did a Push, nothing happened since it got absorbed. This of course belongs to Absorb section so I will just say, that Push / Pull could use new sounds and perhaps even a new effect, since JK games generally fail to actually demonstrate Push as a strong short gravity burst which actually PUSHES through the air. You know, it needs the kick. I really dislike the "poof" sound, its like Force Breath.
When in Force Stance, Push and Pull can totally ignore Absorb.


=== Force Speed ===

Not much to change here, it is really perfect as it is now and serves even the needs of RP. Also there is no point in Force Stance here, since you are not intended to move much when in FS :S

=== Force Sense ===

One of the improvements suggested here before was, when Sense is on, to show the stats of enemies (HP,FP,DP,MP). That is true good idea, it definately could make Sense more useful even in combat and helps your knowledge of the situation. Only, to be precise, the very first thing that should be sensable are the Force Points - since you are sensing through the Force, you will sense the Force easier that anything other. I think DP or MP should the most difficult thing to sense, thus requiring more skill rank in it.
I have an addition here. Force Sense could also bring a Picture-in-Picture view of area behind you. Since I saw PiP in one Q3 mod before, it should be technically possible. And seeing what is behind can be useful, no ? Heh, especially in RP. This addition could be only granted when in Force Stance.


=== Force Lightning ===

The only minor change I would like here is the knockdown to happen at the end of the lightning, not instanly at the start


=== Force Absorb ===

Well, it really shouldn't be all automatical. Absorb should have 2 effects; a passive and active one. The passive one we have now; it is here always, but in future it should be weakened in this passive state and its full absorbing cappability available only when manually used and activated into active state.


=== Force Rage ===

Not much to add here, the ideas with HP/DP/MP/FP manipulations is just great and will work well I believe. I will only add some options for it here: see, these buffs we have here could be granted gratis; but they should be time-limited and after it, you are tired and weakened = overally more vulnerable. Technically same as in JA, but just adapted for OJP.

=== Force Protect ===

Similiar to Rage, but for light side peeps. I pretty much agree with DP enhancing and that stuff. Protect should amplify defense while Rage improves offense. And that is how it should be.



(getting tired)
Geesh, somebody stop me

And a new force feature takes place here: Force Directing. The idea is practically of a switch which alters the effect of the Force Powers. So, when in Mode 1, Force Grip is damaging a gripped oponnent and can eventually kill him, but the "telekinetic use" of it can be deleted. But while in Mode 2, Force Grip is harmless, but you are free to move your oponnent.

Force Lightning can have 2 modes - a long weak one or a short strong one. Push and Pull can be either a super-strike at 1 oponnent or swept into a large area....



For another RP "need" I would welcome "saber igniting on and off animations", prolly different for each form, for the only purpose of looking cool and delaying changing from weapons to saber. But a "fast ignite" should be available by simply attacking with turned off saber as it is now. Anyone sometimes gets in hot situation.


I am going to end now, since I grew tired of bashing into a keyboard and you are propably tired of going from left to right with your eyes. Feel free..no, you ARE encouraged to discuss these ideas as much as possible - simplify them, alter them, comment them...just at least SOME sort of these changes I would love to see in OJP once..! Note that almost all of these suggestions are not posted concretely as they should be in game with all the bonuses and penalties not wrote and such; I rather not posted it and leave it for you guys, since I am not sure with my feet here.

Sincerely,
Lung Drago

P.S.: It is not all I have in head, I said nothing about mercs and such...maybe I will post something later
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Old 02-20-2008, 04:24 PM   #2
Maxstate
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Some of this stuff is stuff we've always been planning to do, but to be honest, anything about adding styles or "Force stances" right now is totally out of the question.

There is no doubt in my mind that we have more than enough styles and force powers right now that still aren't balanced, but styles and force powers that we could make so much more advanced and thorough that there is no reason to add new ones currently. Even better said; it would be a mistake to do so in my opinion.

Currently, Hocks and Darth (by guidance of me and jack, which are subsequently guided by the community) are being overworked with tons of new changes and additions we're doing to make the game more playable and to improve the general feel of the game. These additions, for now at least, are and will be limited to what we perceive as having potential to become a long-staying part of OJP, something that will not just draw in new players, but also keep them here.

Visuals and eyecandy in that respect have a high hook factor, but a very small stick factor. Meaning, it'll draw people in nicely but it won't make them stick or respect the mod for what it is, understand? In principle I wouldn't be ready to start working on those in anything other than an emergency case (like when our main coder's PC borked? Yeah like that).

I like some of the small ideas you have about lightning and sense, but as I said, those we already know and just haven't been able to come to yet.

By the way, you mask your RP-intentions with a well-put together post, but don't overdo it as to blow your cover; OJP is not an RP mod.

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Old 02-21-2008, 06:19 AM   #3
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"OJP is not an RP mod"

At least, not RP in the traditional JKA sense, but I've always been wanting to do a campaign similar to RPGs, except conversation is mainly used for cosmetic purposes. But I'll be doing a co-op campaign for sure once I get all my backlog done, including HUD and custom weapons

Nevertheless, I agree with Maxstate, a lot of things mentioned are unnecessary right now. We have to focus on getting OJP right first before adding anything new. OJP is like an infant: full of ideas and desires, but unable to perform anything well enough on its own yet. We still have bug fixes, balances and planned already-planned features to add in before moving ahead of ourselves

Plus, the whole defensive/aggressive/Force stances will make an already complicated-enough game even more complicated
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Old 02-22-2008, 04:15 PM   #4
razorace
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Yeah, we tossed about the idea of defend/attack in saber combat for a long time way back in the MotF era. Our experience since then has been that the way things are now (without modes) keeps the combat fast and intense.

I like a lot of the ideas thou. We're on the same wavelength for a lot of that stuff. It's just that we've never had time to impliment all it.


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Old 02-23-2008, 04:28 AM   #5
Dex Dakari
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RPG'ing possible anyway

Get some players, start a rp map, configurate force powers, start and ur done.
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Old 02-23-2008, 10:06 AM   #6
The Unbeholden
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wow hes a bigger ideas man than me...


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Old 02-24-2008, 08:33 AM   #7
Lung Drago
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OK, first I would like to thank everyone here for expressing his opinion.

My previous post was not of course meant as "hey guys, great piece of work you are doing here, but you seem to me you have got nothing to do right now, so heres a list and move up" I am aware that you are no LucasArts, your resources (such as time or people in the team) are limited and the whole progress is going slow.

I will answer everyone one by one:

Quote:
Visuals and eyecandy in that respect have a high hook factor, but a very small stick factor. Meaning, it'll draw people in nicely but it won't make them stick or respect the mod for what it is.
You have a point here, but the key to success is having visuals and eyecandy backed up by fine, complex, exploreable game system which will make sure of the stick factor. (by the way, I really like these turns of phrases .

Quote:
OJP is not an RP mod.
Let me correct you - OJP is not primarily developed as RP mod But the core itself of your saber system makes OJP a clear choice for RPer; only OJP is capable of real movie-like duels. I can even say, that OJP can be used in an extreme way - if someone decided to make a Star Wars machinima film for example, honestly, if he wants to record saber duels, only OJP comes in mind.


Quote:
Plus, the whole defensive/aggressive/Force stances will make an already complicated-enough game even more complicated.
You have a point, but do not fear that. There are far more complicated games than OJP and people play them Do note that the game can be very complicated, complex and hard to understand but because of clever user-friendly admission and interface people will come over it



My view of OJP is the one of a perfect game; Jedi Academy is still the only saber duel mutliplayer option and OJP brings the real duels. LucasArts game never had such a potentional like OJP has and that is why I am going to support it. Now only with ideas and suggestions, but in near future I might be able to join the OJP team; I can work with Poser 7 and I am teaching with Carrara right now; I will be able to create animations and other 3D-related stuff; I also have few friends capable of coding and other useful stuff who might be willing to join aswell. They definately like OJP, that I know.

OJP should be fun to play (that is now, but it is kind of repetitive after a while..yes Max, stick factor is definately below 1.0 :P) and also SW accurate (accuracy somehow supports RP too).

According to Wookiepedia, only very few Jedi/Sith were capable of mastering all 7 forms of lightsaber; but we must note, that everyone was instructed about them. And the "1 point, voala a new form" system just does not reflect this.

Well, I thought about expanding the point system. No general "skill points" but instead 3 types; "force points", "lightsaber points" and "skill points". The Force/Gunnery/Lightsaber menu shall be reforged into only one menu based on dropdown lists (so it will have dropdowns Force, gunnery, lightsaber) and each of these lists contain the adequate skills. While Force and Gunnery can be filled with something now, we find that we cannot add anything to Lightsaber (besides throw, defense,attack and a couple of forms) and that is somehow poor.

The things that lightsaber menu should contain are the moves we have now. And they should have levels aswell. Wookipedia tells about "maneuvers" such as sai tok- cutting an opponent in half, usually separating his or her legs from the torso at the waist - now I do not really think we should THAT accurate since it is too many foreign words and such, so the moves shall be named "normally" (cartwheel, rollstab and such). We definately need add more moves here.
Ill write example of cartwheel here: level 1 unlocks cartwheel as we have now. Level 2 allows you to combo into doublejump cartwheel (which will look like this: first jump as classic cartwheel, the second one will be a part of staff butterfly move...it should look good) and level 3 allows infinite combos like these AND also an option of attacking during it. And level 3 cartwheel can be a prerequisite for choosing Form IV: Ataru since cartwheels are a fine part of the whole form.
Now I personally think this idea is great. You no longer confuse the poor player by saying "choose your form here" when he barely knows what each form consists of; instead, he builds his moves and thus chooses his form and gets an idea of how the form should be used / works and such. Also it adds more variety to characters and that is something people like; when they have a unique character not only by what he looks, but also what he is able to do.

There should be a really long and wide variety of moves available and it must be all well-thought but if done correctly, it will be a real addition to OJP in future at least in my view.

We could also, if previous changes would happen, redo the skill earning system a little bit; you gain Force points when using Force, lightsaber points when using lightsaber and skill points for everything other (blasters, gadgets) that can be either based on kills or on actual uses Nah, stealing a little bit from Oblivion, hm? But who cares, main is how it works, no who came with it first.



Again, I do not expect you to, after reading this text, bring yourselfs up and start it getting done right away; we have time. Not even TFU can put OJP in danger (well TFU will clearly defeat OJP in the force part because of physics, but it has no chance against OJP's saber system ) so we DO have time.

See you later,
Lung Drago
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Old 02-24-2008, 10:01 AM   #8
Kaldar
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Interesting ideas but they aren't new. It would be very hard to code, nearly impossible. And there is much more to do like fixing bugs and balancing the forces etc.

I think that better system would be not buying moves to have a new form, but improving styles. For example you would buy better damage for djem so, parrying and deflecting for soresu or faster attack for ataru. It can be like "Tech tree" from strategies where you must have attack strange 2 to gain a new attack. We can even create fatalities for every style, powerful attacks which end the fight.

But still, it's hard to code and would need a lot of hard work. And it should be tested, balanced so it's impossible for now.
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Old 02-24-2008, 09:32 PM   #9
The Unbeholden
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People are oready stearing away from OJP just cause they think its to cmplicated. its quite simple once you spend more then 10 minutes playing.. the fact is if we make it more complicated then the people who do know the game will see that not only is is complicated at first.. but even once you learn it its complicated... we want it to be a fun and easy to play game that at the same time has real tactics involved in combat... OJP is king when its comes to mods for JK academy..

what you suggested is incredibly hard to code, and would make the game a RTS... hell i was even excepting you to say "lets make the game turn based instead of real time" seriously going that far is going to make the game worse rather then better

how ever i do agree with this

"According to Wookiepedia, only very few Jedi/Sith were capable of mastering all 7 forms of lightsaber; but we must note, that everyone was instructed about them. And the "1 point, voala a new form" system just does not reflect this."

Anyways Trust in the OJP makers. They have done a magnificent job so far, so lets leave it up to them shall we?


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Old 02-25-2008, 03:56 AM   #10
Maxstate
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lung Drago
You have a point here, but the key to success is having visuals and eyecandy backed up by fine, complex, exploreable game system which will make sure of the stick factor. (by the way, I really like these turns of phrases .
The key of success is something we can debate about all day long. If the key to success was a good, complex and exploreable game (system) and nice eyecandy, crysis would've sold more than eighty thousand copies world wide. Guess what, it didn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drago
Let me correct you - OJP is not primarily developed as RP mod But the core itself of your saber system makes OJP a clear choice for RPer; only OJP is capable of real movie-like duels. I can even say, that OJP can be used in an extreme way - if someone decided to make a Star Wars machinima film for example, honestly, if he wants to record saber duels, only OJP comes in mind.
MovieBattles prides itself with having not only movierealistic duels, but also movierealistic playermodels, skins, weapons, setups and maps. Does this make MovieBattles a clear choice for RP'ers too? Your rhetoric is weak my friend.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drago
You have a point, but do not fear that. There are far more complicated games than OJP and people play them Do note that the game can be very complicated, complex and hard to understand but because of clever user-friendly admission and interface people will come over it
So aside from the idea of adding in more "stances" to the game, these stances would first require us to make a better interface so users can learn about the system faster? So why not advise the interface system first instead of adding it later as some kind of half-assed addendum to save your argument?

Quote:
Originally Posted by drago
My view of OJP is the one of a perfect game; Jedi Academy is still the only saber duel mutliplayer option and OJP brings the real duels. LucasArts game never had such a potentional like OJP has and that is why I am going to support it. Now only with ideas and suggestions, but in near future I might be able to join the OJP team; I can work with Poser 7 and I am teaching with Carrara right now; I will be able to create animations and other 3D-related stuff; I also have few friends capable of coding and other useful stuff who might be willing to join aswell. They definately like OJP, that I know.
Jump first and then say hop, dude. We've had a lot of people saying the same things over the years. You're however very welcome if you decide to join us.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drago
OJP should be fun to play (that is now, but it is kind of repetitive after a while..yes Max, stick factor is definately below 1.0 :P) and also SW accurate (accuracy somehow supports RP too).
The stick factor is low because of low playercount. The playercount is low because everyone is still doped up on MovieBattles and Forcemod and we haven't really done a lot to pimp out the mod. I had a CTF game with about 6 other people yesterday and all I did was join the server. OJP's popularity is growing and that's only helping its stick factor. And again, SW accuracy is something MovieBattles has too, look at it if you want a good example of what your logic should define as an "RP" mod.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drago
According to Wookiepedia, only very few Jedi/Sith were capable of mastering all 7 forms of lightsaber; but we must note, that everyone was instructed about them. And the "1 point, voala a new form" system just does not reflect this.
Noone said that the current system is how it's going to be and stay. Besides the point, we don't really care. There is no reason for us to be movie or EU or whatever-realistic. We've been an amalgam of so many factors for so long that claiming something like that would be laughable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drago

Well, I thought about expanding the point system. No general "skill points" but instead 3 types; "force points", "lightsaber points" and "skill points". The Force/Gunnery/Lightsaber menu shall be reforged into only one menu based on dropdown lists (so it will have dropdowns Force, gunnery, lightsaber) and each of these lists contain the adequate skills. While Force and Gunnery can be filled with something now, we find that we cannot add anything to Lightsaber (besides throw, defense,attack and a couple of forms) and that is somehow poor.
As people have been telling you for the last 3 posts, we know this. We know it looks bad but there are for more pressing problems that we need to take care of before we start contemplating on aesthetics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drago
The things that lightsaber menu should contain are the moves we have now. And they should have levels aswell. Wookipedia tells about "maneuvers" such as sai tok- cutting an opponent in half, usually separating his or her legs from the torso at the waist - now I do not really think we should THAT accurate since it is too many foreign words and such, so the moves shall be named "normally" (cartwheel, rollstab and such). We definately need add more moves here.
Ill write example of cartwheel here: level 1 unlocks cartwheel as we have now. Level 2 allows you to combo into doublejump cartwheel (which will look like this: first jump as classic cartwheel, the second one will be a part of staff butterfly move...it should look good) and level 3 allows infinite combos like these AND also an option of attacking during it. And level 3 cartwheel can be a prerequisite for choosing Form IV: Ataru since cartwheels are a fine part of the whole form.
Now I personally think this idea is great. You no longer confuse the poor player by saying "choose your form here" when he barely knows what each form consists of; instead, he builds his moves and thus chooses his form and gets an idea of how the form should be used / works and such. Also it adds more variety to characters and that is something people like; when they have a unique character not only by what he looks, but also what he is able to do.
Again, too wookieepedia, too roleplay, not OJP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drago
There should be a really long and wide variety of moves available and it must be all well-thought but if done correctly, it will be a real addition to OJP in future at least in my view.
I agree and the entire team is trying to achieve this, but with an engine that's 10 years old and only one real programmer, that'll be hard, and you should know that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drago
We could also, if previous changes would happen, redo the skill earning system a little bit; you gain Force points when using Force, lightsaber points when using lightsaber and skill points for everything other (blasters, gadgets) that can be either based on kills or on actual uses Nah, stealing a little bit from Oblivion, hm? But who cares, main is how it works, no who came with it first.
One of the original ideas propagated by the community (especially me) was to make it more like Wolfenstein:Enemy Territory, funny fact.

You need to understand that when dealing with OJP, you deal with JKA, and when dealing with JKA you deal with Quake3's engine and every bug, every nook and every cranny that comes with it when you add something new. Especially highly complicated features like reloading and the saber system we have. Now, keep in mind that aside from really trivial things like what you've been describing, the OJP team has about a trillion bugs that need fixing before the idea of adding something completely new or changing one of the thin red line systems of OJP becomes even a brainfart.

I'm going to stop here since I feel my flame-sense tingling, and to be honest, I try to disassociate myself from the behavioral aspects that we see in some of our partners-in-crime.

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Old 02-25-2008, 06:03 AM   #11
The Unbeholden
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ow ow.. hes serious.. run for the hills RUNN

anyways i think the only thing that OJP could even improve is the saber styles. Its true that mastering a style takes ages.. and only a few Jedi have ever mastered all 7 forms.. I do think there can be improvment in the system. in not only the realisticism but game play aspect also.. But of course that will be in all due time. OJP is still buggy as hell, and needs perfecting in the broken code...before we can start to expand on ideas such as that.

everything that Maxstate says i agree, i spread peanut butter on his words. So i suggest you heed them. Otherwise you'll be wasting alot of your time for nothing. Like i have


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